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This topic has moved here: Subject: Yea only one problem it dosent work all the time!
  • Subject: Yea only one problem it dosent work all the time!
Subject: Yea only one problem it dosent work all the time!

Posted by: Achronos
Look, this is getting silly. Things are working correctly, they just don't work like they did in Halo 2. Here's a few things to remember.

1. Your individual performance during a team game doesn't matter - if you lost, you lost, it doesn't matter how well you did personally.
2. Rank progression is NOT linear.
3. Rank progression is based on consistency and the rank of your opponents. That is, if you always lose to higher level opponents, and win most but still lose some to equal level opponents, you won't go up that match.
4. If you lose to someone lower level than you, your rank is going to suffer more. Winning against lower level players is expected, and will not assist you in going up.
5. I cannot say this enough - just winning more than you lose isn't going to get you rank. It is but one requirement. As I said, if you're not beating higher leveled players consistently, you don't go up a level because you haven't earned it.
6. Rank will initially change often, but once you get to a certain point, the system becomes statistically certain about your level in a playlist, and just playing games and winning is no longer enough to go up - you have to consistently win against higher leveled players and not lose to lower level players.
7. Please, PLEASE stop assuming things aren't working because it doesn't work how it did in Halo 2. Playing and winning only guarentees your EXP goes up, it doesn't guarentee your skill level goes up. That depends on who you are playing.


I thought this should go here because he does a better job explaining it.

  • 11.14.2007 6:36 AM PDT

Posted by: Jay120171
Posted by: Achronos
Look, this is getting silly. Things are working correctly, they just don't work like they did in Halo 2. Here's a few things to remember.

1. Your individual performance during a team game doesn't matter - if you lost, you lost, it doesn't matter how well you did personally.
2. Rank progression is NOT linear.
3. Rank progression is based on consistency and the rank of your opponents. That is, if you always lose to higher level opponents, and win most but still lose some to equal level opponents, you won't go up that match.
4. If you lose to someone lower level than you, your rank is going to suffer more. Winning against lower level players is expected, and will not assist you in going up.
5. I cannot say this enough - just winning more than you lose isn't going to get you rank. It is but one requirement. As I said, if you're not beating higher leveled players consistently, you don't go up a level because you haven't earned it.
6. Rank will initially change often, but once you get to a certain point, the system becomes statistically certain about your level in a playlist, and just playing games and winning is no longer enough to go up - you have to consistently win against higher leveled players and not lose to lower level players.
7. Please, PLEASE stop assuming things aren't working because it doesn't work how it did in Halo 2. Playing and winning only guarentees your EXP goes up, it doesn't guarentee your skill level goes up. That depends on who you are playing.


I thought this should go here because he does a better job explaining it.


I believe the op's and my post do a better job of explaining it. Although this does help. thanks for posting it.

I need to refine my theorem for team games as well, at the moment it is for free for all.

  • 11.14.2007 6:43 AM PDT
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
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Interesting reading, the MU still confuses me however, as no one really knows how it is valued,calculated, added or subtracted..

I was playing a game with a buddy yesterday on team doubles, his first time playing doubles and I was on skill 4..

We won the game, I was MVP with 19 kills over his 6, however he went to skill 4 and I stayed the same...

Hmmm

  • 11.14.2007 6:50 AM PDT
Subject: Yea only one problem it dosent work all the time!

Posted by: SatansReverence
I believe the op's and my post do a better job of explaining it. Although this does help. thanks for posting it.

I need to refine my theorem for team games as well, at the moment it is for free for all.

My bad, I wasn't trying to take anything away from the OP or your post. I meant he explains why some peeps play a large number of games without moving levels. Your technical explanations also get lost on some folks and some people will only listen to a Bungie employee.

  • 11.14.2007 6:53 AM PDT
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.

Posted by: ThomasJBartyhead
Interesting reading, the MU still confuses me however, as no one really knows how it is valued,calculated, added or subtracted..

I was playing a game with a buddy yesterday on team doubles, his first time playing doubles and I was on skill 4..

We won the game, I was MVP with 19 kills over his 6, however he went to skill 4 and I stayed the same...

Hmmm


Your situation is explained in the first page. your Sigma is lower(Level certainty is higher) then your friends (Your friend being at maximum(Level certainty is lower)) so he earned maximum Mu(Experience A La Halo 2) from the game while you earned less. please tell how many games you played before this. Also, individual performance has no bearing on your skill level, only your teams outcome. *Edited for a clearer read*

p.s to Jay: not to worry mate, your contribution is greatly appreciated. I might message the Op and get him to add it to his post.

[Edited on 11.14.2007 7:22 AM PST]

  • 11.14.2007 7:00 AM PDT
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Short and Sweet.

Nicely written. Perfectly proves what bungie says. "Rank is not linear." I really hope this is correct, as not all online games have to use TrueSkill. Then again, at the time MS owned Bungie, so this probably is spot on. Well done. -gives medal-

  • 11.14.2007 7:36 AM PDT

Posted by: eyeball16
Nicely written. Perfectly proves what bungie says. "Rank is not linear." I really hope this is correct, as not all online games have to use TrueSkill. Then again, at the time MS owned Bungie, so this probably is spot on. Well done. -gives medal-


Halo 3 uses a slightly modified version of TrueSkill.

Also, can anyone tell me if TrueSkill automatically lowers the rank of people who dont play the game? I think it does because I lost my Forza 2 Level after I didnt play for a few months. thanks.

  • 11.14.2007 7:48 AM PDT
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0.0 my brain hurts owie. but thanks makes things alot clearer. although... when my friends ask me how it works.... im not going to answer... cause i cant repeat everything in a way that they can understand.

  • 11.14.2007 9:14 AM PDT
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Tai MT writes
Is there a way to explain how some people lose a game and gain a level for the loss? A few people have reported this, including myself.

I, in fact, earned my first 41 by this method.

Yes, in fact there is! Remember the conservative ranking system? Your shown skill level = Mu(the game's assessment of your peak (in terms of bell curve) skill level) MINUS {Sigma times K} where K is a number that Bungie and Microsoft just makes up. However, the value of K is usually 3 according to Microsoft Research.

When you lost that game to get your 41, your Mu dropped probably very little, as I conjecture you were playing a higher level opponent. However, your Sigma value dropped more than your Mu value, so the actual conservative ranking equation came out higher than it did the previous game, pushing you up one rank.

In other words, the system won't SHOW your peak level on the skill ranking until it is more "certain" of it.

  • 11.14.2007 11:31 AM PDT
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Wheelman for hire

so, if you have a long win streak, you are more likely to rank up? that's good to know.

  • 11.14.2007 11:49 AM PDT

Riverside23: For all the women of the group, if you've got a real man at least let him have his big piece of chicken.

WhtButterflyLiz: lol. Bring home bigger chikkinz, then, real man!!!

DEATHPIMP72: *throws pterodactyl on table*
Suck it JoeSki!!!

Great explanation. Thanks for the Statistics aspect, makes things plain and simple. Great job. Saw the word bell curve, and just wanted to give you a hug.

  • 11.14.2007 12:03 PM PDT
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Good job El Kafungus.

[Edited on 11.14.2007 5:34 PM PST]

  • 11.14.2007 1:45 PM PDT
Subject: I saw but
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I know but ive been playing and winning against 40s when im a 30 i just think its bugged but thanks for lookin out

  • 11.14.2007 2:28 PM PDT
Subject: Yea only one problem it dosent work all the time!
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I think that only people are having problems with it are in team games rather than free for all, when calculating the sigma between the 8 players its meant for that but when it splits it between the two teams there is now another valuable to calculate and it fails. The simplest part, the MVP system hardly works half the time the guy with the best K/D will rarely get the MVP. (In Team Slayer) this is the view of myself and 3 others that play with me and have the same problem. Dont point up to what your wrote because i read them all. I know how its supposed to work its just not working.

  • 11.14.2007 2:52 PM PDT

Men, we've led these dumb bugs out to the middle of nowhere to keep from getting their filthy claws on earth, but, we stumbled on to something that's so hot for them, that they're scrambling over each other to get it. Well, I don't care if it's God's own anti-son-of-a-b*tch machine, or a giant hola-hoop, we ain't gonna let them have it. What we will let them have, is a belly full of lead, and a pool of their own blood to drown in!

El Kafungus, that was brilliant and it really helped everyone's understanding of how MM works (the equations and Trueskill system evaluations esp.) There's only one thing that I think people are still a bit fuzzy on (Including myself)-and that's how lone wolves works. If you could shed some insight on how the trueskill system works with free for all playlists (playlists with more than just 1st or 2nd place), that would be awesome.

Personally, I've noticed that Lone wolves is so densely (sp.) populated, that Mu and Sigma must be fairly close to each player in the party. Therefore, I believe on a somewhat limited basis that coming in 2nd one time and then 5th next time actually cancel out, and do not affect your Mu in any way, and therefore actually decrease sigma by a small margin. However, I do believe El Kafungus is absolutely right about the 65% win to loss ratio (for all levels, not just the high ones).

  • 11.14.2007 5:57 PM PDT
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
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As informative as this is, most of the general population who plays halo (iq 100-110) will NOT understand this, but eh, btw lol thanks for the math fun ( im a mensa nerd )

For the normies:
IF YOU SUCK YOU NO RANK UP!!!!

[Edited on 11.14.2007 6:30 PM PST]

  • 11.14.2007 6:29 PM PDT
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2-shea great post

  • 11.14.2007 6:35 PM PDT
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wait, okay, i didnt read every single word, i just have a question, im a 46 in doubles, i have won 7 games straight and have not gone up, i checked and found that in all of those 7 games i played were against levels 46 or higher, never less than 46, and i didnt go up... why does this happen? do i need to be inconsistent to rank up, if so, will it take me onger to get a 50?, approx. how many games would i need to win under ideal conditions to obtain a 50? thank you in adance... <<< COOK1E SN1PER >>>gamertag

  • 11.14.2007 6:54 PM PDT

Posted by: Cookie Sniper
wait, okay, i didnt read every single word, i just have a question, im a 46 in doubles, i have won 7 games straight and have not gone up, i checked and found that in all of those 7 games i played were against levels 46 or higher, never less than 46, and i didnt go up... why does this happen? do i need to be inconsistent to rank up, if so, will it take me onger to get a 50?, approx. how many games would i need to win under ideal conditions to obtain a 50? thank you in adance... <<< COOK1E SN1PER >>>gamertag


Keep up the good work. make sure you never lose to lower level opponent's. and when the inevitable loss comes, keep at it, when you rank down after a long spree you gotta restart that spree to start going up.

And to venom, can you make sure my calculations on the bottem of the second page are somewhat correct and possibly refine them for me? thanks in advance

  • 11.14.2007 7:32 PM PDT
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wow that's alot to read through so i'm not sure if this had already been answered. But why does sometimes the system put you together with people who skill levels are way above what they should be? Like i'm a 36 in team slayer so i figure the highest MAX level i should probably play against is 39 or 40 right? Well i've played a few games in team slayer where my team mates were like 34 37 and 38 and we played a match against like a 43,44,40,43 team. Is this the system like "testing" us? or is it just some sort of weird anomaly in the system?

here are two examples. The first one is the best that shows almost exactly what i was talking about, the second one is close but not as bad, but still goes with my point

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=112942 303&player=FriggenFry

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=912694 24&player=FriggenFry

[Edited on 11.14.2007 7:58 PM PST]

  • 11.14.2007 7:52 PM PDT
Subject: Yea only one problem it dosent work all the time!
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HALO<3

no. 4 is wrong http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=136847 212&player=MOVAFO

i beat low levels and leveled up to a 43, but i did beat them by a lot though

  • 11.15.2007 12:30 AM PDT

K.I.Z. pwnz0rs ? :P

Hey there ! Im fairly new to Halo 3 MP and wanted to know if you could just play the game for fun or always have to worry about Mu and Sigma and all that. Because all that matters to me is getting the Achievements and having fun ( and eventually becomign General xD ) and I can´t be bothered to do Math in my freetime or worry about TrueSkill or all that but if it´s that crucial to getting the Officer Pin ( or becoming General) I would be thankfull if someone could tell me if I have to worry about leveling after each match.....

  • 11.15.2007 1:43 AM PDT

Posted by: mo0vaf00
no. 4 is wrong http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=136847 212&player=MOVAFO

i beat low levels and leveled up to a 43, but i did beat them by a lot though

The game right before this one you came in 2nd against all higher level players. As was stated a couple posts up, the system wasn't displaying your 43 until you won the next game is was more certain of it.

Also, what I quoted was from Achronos, a Bungie employee, so I would tend to trust what he says about it because he has direct access to the guys that programmed it. You could say that it was wrong because you went up after beating lower levels but I think he means in general. If you win 5 games against all lower level players, don't expect to go up. Especially if you've been at that level for a while and the system is pretty certain it's where you should be.

  • 11.15.2007 6:27 AM PDT
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
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That's a great explanation of the system, but the system is clearly not working. The fact that player after player after player is complaining about levels being way off is proof enough it's not working. After all, the system is suppose to match similarly skilled players but that's not happening. We're all running into 30-40's who play like 10-20's, & 10-20's who're playing like 30's. In Halo 2, you knew (far more often than not) that a 30 was a 30. Completely untrue in Halo 3.

If you're saying the system will only average out & accurately predict skill over time, then what, we're suppose to play a thousand unbalanced games before things balance out?!? No way.

Look, for most players, Trueskill worked well enough. What we still desperately need is better net code!!! (Want me to send you a clip of 3 successive sniper headshots that doesn't kill the opponent. Jeez. If it wasn't for the Halo nicotine I'd have stopped playing a long time ago. ;) )

  • 11.15.2007 6:34 AM PDT

Posted by: ST3W13G
That's a great explanation of the system, but the system is clearly not working. The fact that player after player after player is complaining about levels being way off is proof enough it's not working. After all, the system is suppose to match similarly skilled players but that's not happening. We're all running into 30-40's who play like 10-20's, & 10-20's who're playing like 30's. In Halo 2, you knew (far more often than not) that a 30 was a 30. Completely untrue in Halo 3.

If you're saying the system will only average out & accurately predict skill over time, then what, we're suppose to play a thousand unbalanced games before things balance out?!? No way.

Look, for most players, Trueskill worked well enough. What we still desperately need is better net code!!! (Want me to send you a clip of 3 successive sniper headshots that doesn't kill the opponent. Jeez. If it wasn't for the Halo nicotine I'd have stopped playing a long time ago. ;) )


Yea, the netcode does suck. I was stuck in the score screen after a round on BTB but I could move around and shot but I was just seeing the score screen with the black back ground. these problems should have been fixed before the game was released. any, thats off topic.

If you read into it more you realise why you get 10 and 20's playing like 30's and 30's playing like 10's and 20's

The 10's playing like 30's either havnt been playing for long and havnt gotten their ranks up, or they found a whole new level of skill they can use. then the 30's whoplay like 10's are people who got in early when their sigma was high and had it easy to rank up.

From my experience the games are usually rather close normally within 10 points or so and it is rare that I find games that a blowout's unless the other team (Or mine) is cheating in some fashion.

  • 11.15.2007 6:53 AM PDT