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  • Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.

cheers very informative i have been aching to get to 20 on team slayer for ages now and now i know its because my sigma is lowish

  • 02.07.2008 2:11 PM PDT
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i read somewhere that the more exp you have, the harder it is to level up
i am currently level 45, got my commander logo about 3 games ago, and im trying to get at least 500 exp to become a brigadier

at the same time, i also want to become a general, so if i have too much exp, would it take mountains of victories for me to get that 50?

  • 02.07.2008 7:08 PM PDT

Posted by: MiseryIchor
I don't think the skill system should count disconnects as quits. Giving you negative skill and Exp. for something that is out of your control.
It has to count those games. If the system did not count disconnects then every time someone was losing, they would unplug their LAN cable and disconnect. By counting them, it keeps people from manipulating their skill level by quitting.

  • 02.08.2008 5:07 AM PDT

Posted by: Regggie Noble
i read somewhere that the more exp you have, the harder it is to level up
i am currently level 45, got my commander logo about 3 games ago, and im trying to get at least 500 exp to become a brigadier

at the same time, i also want to become a general, so if i have too much exp, would it take mountains of victories for me to get that 50?
It's not the amount of EXP (Military Rank) that slows you down. It is the amount of games you play in the playlist. So, if you've played 500 games of TS, it may take 10 wins to go up one level. If you've only played 50 games, it may take a few wins to go up. Basically by 500 games, you should be at your "skill" level already. It then takes a significant amount of wins to enable the system to recognize your improved performance and raise your skill.

  • 02.08.2008 5:11 AM PDT

Prompt A,B,C
(A+B+C) -> X
2X -> Y
-Y -> Z
1/(Z+A+B+C) = The World Explodes, simple math.

That really sucks because if, say you have played a large amount, then you definatly gain skill, you have to play a ton of games to go up a level.

  • 02.08.2008 2:20 PM PDT
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Posted by: Jay120171
[quote]Posted by: MorDan Kin
(snip) ...Yes, a person starting a new account will go up faster than someone who has played 200 games. The thing is, I've seen people who create another account because they are frustrated and what usually happens is they end up within 1 or 2 skill levels of their main account. The system doesn't penalize you and hold you back. It just doesn't reward you for beating opponents you should beat. They get there faster but they don't go much higher.


actually, that has not been my experience with people who have re-rolled or actually lost accounts (hacked and unable to retreive gamer tag). my skill feels right around 40-ish. i base this on playing in team games with guys who are in the 40-42 range. are there 38s that whoop me? sure there are, but that's because they aren't at their true skill level. are there 45s thati whoop? sure there are, and this is my point:

in a team based game you are only as good as your team allows you to be. the worse your team, the more of your own flaws that are uncovered. the better your team, the more your flaws are covered up. team me up with a bunch of 50s from FFA, and we're gonna get stomped by a team of 50s in TS. why? they are 50s in TS, not FFA. it's a different style and strategy.

now, take a group of players who've played 300-400 games and gotten to the mid 30s before they found each other. after they found each other, they went on a 15 game winning streak. each guy increased in level 3 or 4 times. now they are high 30s. after a 15 game streak. do you truly believe that their skill is only high 30s at this point "as a team"? they are being held back by the system at this point.

take this group, re-roll, and start fresh. i promise you, they will pass their previous level in 40-60 games. i see it all the time when Gunnery Sergeants who are 42 skill pop up in our team games. they've played 52 games and won 47 of them, or 60 games and won 53 of them. these are people i actually play with from time to time, so i know what their other accounts are.

one guy had his account stolen. it was bogged down at 42. he created a new account, and before he became an officer he was already back at 42. now he's a 46. that would have taken forever on his old account to win enough games in Doubles or TS to raise from a 42 to a 46. the issue? bad previous teammates.

it's not so simple to just say "H3 is better than H2". it won't stop high level grouping. it just delays it for a while. in the meantime, players who are playing fair according to the system are receiving the brunt of the punishment. i'm not saying the H2 system was better. i never played it. bu the best system is probably somewhere inbetween the two. i'm no 50. i'm not even a 45. but i am definitely good enough to hold my own in the room with 40s, and the guys who play with me will back me up on that. unfortunately, with over 1100 ranked games played, it is unlikely i will reach that level before i just get tired of trying. i can't even level up my 34 Doubles playing with someone who's ranked higher than me. he levels, i stay the same. i lead the team in kills? he levels, i stay the same. 6 wins in a row? he goes up three, i may go up 1.

re-rolling can mean the difference in a few levels, you're right. not 10 or anything. but for a player trying to increase from 38 to 40, or from 48 to 50, those could be just the two or three levels s/he's looking for...

  • 02.11.2008 11:21 AM PDT
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Posted by: MorDan Kin
Posted by: Jay120171
[quote]Posted by: MorDan Kin
(snip) ...Yes, a person starting a new account will go up faster than someone who has played 200 games. The thing is, I've seen people who create another account because they are frustrated and what usually happens is they end up within 1 or 2 skill levels of their main account. The system doesn't penalize you and hold you back. It just doesn't reward you for beating opponents you should beat. They get there faster but they don't go much higher.


actually, that has not been my experience with people who have re-rolled or actually lost accounts (hacked and unable to retreive gamer tag). my skill feels right around 40-ish. i base this on playing in team games with guys who are in the 40-42 range. are there 38s that whoop me? sure there are, but that's because they aren't at their true skill level. are there 45s thati whoop? sure there are, and this is my point:

in a team based game you are only as good as your team allows you to be. the worse your team, the more of your own flaws that are uncovered. the better your team, the more your flaws are covered up. team me up with a bunch of 50s from FFA, and we're gonna get stomped by a team of 50s in TS. why? they are 50s in TS, not FFA. it's a different style and strategy.

now, take a group of players who've played 300-400 games and gotten to the mid 30s before they found each other. after they found each other, they went on a 15 game winning streak. each guy increased in level 3 or 4 times. now they are high 30s. after a 15 game streak. do you truly believe that their skill is only high 30s at this point "as a team"? they are being held back by the system at this point.

take this group, re-roll, and start fresh. i promise you, they will pass their previous level in 40-60 games. i see it all the time when Gunnery Sergeants who are 42 skill pop up in our team games. they've played 52 games and won 47 of them, or 60 games and won 53 of them. these are people i actually play with from time to time, so i know what their other accounts are.

one guy had his account stolen. it was bogged down at 42. he created a new account, and before he became an officer he was already back at 42. now he's a 46. that would have taken forever on his old account to win enough games in Doubles or TS to raise from a 42 to a 46. the issue? bad previous teammates.

it's not so simple to just say "H3 is better than H2". it won't stop high level grouping. it just delays it for a while. in the meantime, players who are playing fair according to the system are receiving the brunt of the punishment. i'm not saying the H2 system was better. i never played it. bu the best system is probably somewhere inbetween the two. i'm no 50. i'm not even a 45. but i am definitely good enough to hold my own in the room with 40s, and the guys who play with me will back me up on that. unfortunately, with over 1100 ranked games played, it is unlikely i will reach that level before i just get tired of trying. i can't even level up my 34 Doubles playing with someone who's ranked higher than me. he levels, i stay the same. i lead the team in kills? he levels, i stay the same. 6 wins in a row? he goes up three, i may go up 1.

re-rolling can mean the difference in a few levels, you're right. not 10 or anything. but for a player trying to increase from 38 to 40, or from 48 to 50, those could be just the two or three levels s/he's looking for...


Good post. Basically over 5000 games, it wont matter if you re-roll or not. However, due to poor matchmaking quality and low sigma, re rolling makes a hug difference, as you say, to the person that is struggling to get the extra couple of levels.

  • 02.12.2008 3:09 PM PDT

basically means just go out there n do work

[Edited on 02.12.2008 8:04 PM PST]

  • 02.12.2008 7:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: xpoopymcchinx
basically means just go out there n do work



so, what you're saying is, a person who took 3000 games to become a level 47 should HAVE to win 15-20 consecutive games against HIGHER ranked opponents before they can become a 48?

i'm sorry, but if you can win that many consecutive games when you are constantly facing people higher ranked than you, then you should definitely be ranked higher than them, if not higher (obviously you can't go beyond a 50). at this point you are being robbed by the system.

i lost 1 game after winning 2 in a row and going from 37 to 38. it actually went:

LLLWWWLWLWW

if you're counting at home, that's 6-2 over 8 games to make it from 37 to 38. after the loss that dropped me back to 37:

WLWWLWWWWW to get back to 38 and then:

WWWWW to get 39, which was promptly lost on my next defeat, and not regained on my next win.

all in all, that's 10 in a row to get my highest skill back, then to bump it up one more. in case you are wondering:

-1, +9, 0, +5, +5, +4, +2, -1, +5, 0 in the 10 games leading to my 39, and +6 in our loss, followed by +1 in our next win (really, really bad 4th guy... he was -12 in the game and couldn't cover anyone).

i don't think i'm very good. honestly. not as a solo. pretty mediocre as a teammate, but i'm working on it. what you won't see in my K/D is how far it's come from negative to make it into positive. i've gotten better both solo and as a teammate in the past month. however, my level has only risen from 36 to 39. re-roll accounts for me and my current teammates, and i'll make it to 40. no question. why? because i've played 1,200 ranked games. 400+ of them team slayer. probably close to the same in Doubles, which also moves slowly for me. to start fresh? yeah, we're going to slaughter some poor n00bs on the way to our current levels. but when we get there, it will easily make it another level or two above where i am. why? because i'm playing at the level of a 41 or 42 right now. the system won't recognize that though. it says i have to win convincingly over a high number of opponents to "prove" myself. if i can consistently put together 10 game win streaks, i want my freaking 45, not a measly 40...

  • 02.15.2008 12:45 AM PDT

Posted by: MorDan Kin
so, what you're saying is, a person who took 3000 games to become a level 47 should HAVE to win 15-20 consecutive games against HIGHER ranked opponents before they can become a 48?
This is not entirely accurate. There are only a few cases where it will take 15-20 wins to go up one level. If you play in a mixed party, if your team plays all or most of their games with each other and not any other teammates, or if you some how get consistently matched against lower skilled opponents. Other than that, it does not take 15-20 to go up one level.

You can't just look at wins and losses as you know. So stating you won 2, went up, lost one and went down doesn't mean a whole lot if you lost against lower skilled opponents. You don't HAVE to win against HIGHER skilled opponents. You can win against people equal to you in skill as well and gain MU. Otherwise no one would have ever got to 50 in the first place. It's losing to lower skilled opponents that hurts AND frustrates people the most. Many, many, many people do not realize the importance of the opponents skill levels and the weight it has when updating your skill level. You could win 50 against lower skilled opponents and not gain much if anything from it.

Starting over to get a couple extra skill levels is worth it for some and not for others. Some people don't want to play the number of games it will take to get up there so they start over and try to get there quickly as possible. I see a lot of people who gain 1 or 2 levels after each win when they start out and think that is how it is going to be forever. They start losing and suddenly it takes 10 wins for each level and they cry foul.

Good or bad, this is how the current system works. It has the ability to get you up to your skill level quickly. The downside is, it takes 10 wins to go up a level after you reached convergence and the system is certain about your skill. I do not think Bungie is going to implement a new skill system anytime soon. I hope they make adjustments to it to account for some of the issues we have found but that is probably the most we can hope for. A while back I emailed the MS developers of the system and they did say they were working on a way for the system to account for streaks and use that additional data to more quickly raise or lower a player. Maybe this is something Bungie or MS will use but until then, we got what we got.

  • 02.15.2008 9:42 AM PDT
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And I understand that. I don't think a new system needs to be implemented,and if what you say is true about the possible adjustments, then to me that is satisfactory.

I try to stay out of mixed parties. The last two times my skill dropped from 38 to 37 and then 39 to 38 the team we lost to were of even skill, and the following game we won was either against even skill or a higher skill (cumulative, of course).

  • 02.15.2008 4:39 PM PDT
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im not going to say im amazing, only a major, however it seems that to me, everytime i win a game i go up one in team doubles (currently highest skill 30) then i lose one, and it goes down 1 or it doesn't sometimes, they could be even or higher or lower ranked than me, then i win one and it still goes up, i lost to a kid with 22 highest skill and 25 highest skill team with my partner at 30 like me, i expected it to go down, it stayed, then i beat a pair at around 21 and 20 with a 32 partner, and it went up, what's the problem there? i lose and it affects me less than a win does, they were weaker in the match we won than in the match we lost, before that i was fresh out of level 30 if that has any affect, i didnt get mvp for either game please anyone post me i want to figure this out baddlee

  • 02.15.2008 7:56 PM PDT

Stop being such an unborn fetus!

Very interesting post. Now all we need is an in-depth explanation of how the matchmaking system (finding players) works.

  • 02.16.2008 10:24 AM PDT


Nice.

[Edited on 02.18.2008 2:59 PM PST]

  • 02.18.2008 2:59 PM PDT
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This explains a lot thanks!

  • 02.18.2008 6:22 PM PDT
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Wow. That was confusing. Although it explains everything, flawlessly. Job well done.

  • 02.18.2008 7:51 PM PDT
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long but very informative. i am glad that i spent the time to read it

  • 02.18.2008 10:18 PM PDT
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This Thread = OWNAGE TIME!!!!!

  • 02.19.2008 3:43 AM PDT
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On my last account i made it to a 43 in TS, but once i wasn't winning as consistently as I had before, I started to drop rank sooo fast. I understand that if you lose then thats what happens, but cmon, losing rank should be just as difficult as gaining it....period. The really annoying part is winning a few games and then going up one rank. Only to drop back down AFTER ONE LOSS! I finally got so fed up that I made a new account. Let's see how this one turns out.....O_o P.S. I'm not crapping on the TrueSkill system, it probably works well for some people, but I think the creators should explain the best way to avoid getting crapped ON by it.

  • 02.20.2008 7:29 PM PDT

My Most Memorable Match: 1 vs 4 Team Slayer
Game Stats:http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameguid=9157 248240730573060

I agree. Bungie should fix the lose skill/ win skill ratio

  • 02.20.2008 7:54 PM PDT
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couple questions about the ranking system
1. if you win a couple in a row then lose one then win some more, does that count as streaky and increase your sigma?

2. at what point does the system become certain about your skill level?

3. if the system is weighted towards level 20, then why do people say it takes a lot of wins to get to level 50, or any high level to one above that, like 47-48

4. for a skill level, does the system take into account your win loss in that specific playlist or your win loss overall(incl social, team objective, etc.)

  • 02.21.2008 2:03 AM PDT
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Posted by: Regggie Noble
couple questions about the ranking system
1. if you win a couple in a row then lose one then win some more, does that count as streaky and increase your sigma?

2. at what point does the system become certain about your skill level?

3. if the system is weighted towards level 20, then why do people say it takes a lot of wins to get to level 50, or any high level to one above that, like 47-48

4. for a skill level, does the system take into account your win loss in that specific playlist or your win loss overall(incl social, team objective, etc.)


1. Streaks arent considered in this system. Your sigma goes down every game in 99.9% of cases, win or lose. Just goes down quicker if you lose.

2. Once the sample size of your games is big enough. If you dont lose much to start, it takes longer.

3. Poor matchmaking quality. Since less people exist above 40, you are less likely to get quality games that will allow you to test each skill level.

4. Playlist only.

  • 02.22.2008 4:49 PM PDT
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Its too bad this isnt stickied anymore. Would save a lot fo forum clutter. Maybe time to make a slightly more all inclusive thread that answers most of the questions on these pages? I nominate you Jay.

  • 02.24.2008 12:07 PM PDT

I wish it was still stickied too but I don't know about all that re-doing stuff :)

It would be cool to get a FAQ to go along with this thread and get some of the most asked questions in it. There are like 10 that get asked repeatedly. I personally don't blame anyone for not reading this whole thing anymore with all 40 some pages.

  • 02.24.2008 2:56 PM PDT

Doubles: Onyx 60%

This seems accurate, in the last 50 games i've played 30 of them were ranked team slayer.
I won 12/30 at a 40% win rate. My skill on the first game i played was 46. But now it's 45. Thanks for informing everyone.

  • 02.24.2008 3:36 PM PDT