Halo 3 Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
  • Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: Jay120171
I wish it was still stickied too but I don't know about all that re-doing stuff :)

It would be cool to get a FAQ to go along with this thread and get some of the most asked questions in it. There are like 10 that get asked repeatedly. I personally don't blame anyone for not reading this whole thing anymore with all 40 some pages.


I guess thats my point...99% of questions are the same 5-10. Could really use a sticky.

Can a mod comment whether they would sticky an accurate enough posting to help cur down on clutter? That way we don't waste our time.

  • 02.24.2008 4:25 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Hang on a minute before the update a lot of my games lagged a lot - and as a result i lost an awfull lot of them - I find it hard to rank up now - So i see where its comming from. However shouldnt the game take into account the lagging of apponents as the game dosnt seem very fair.

  • 02.24.2008 5:03 PM PDT

Posted by: helyoda
Hang on a minute before the update a lot of my games lagged a lot - and as a result i lost an awfull lot of them - I find it hard to rank up now - So i see where its comming from. However shouldnt the game take into account the lagging of apponents as the game dosnt seem very fair.
Actually it shouldn't for one simple reason. If you lag out and it doesn't count, people would lag themselves out when they were losing so it wouldn't go against them. Using any kind of network performance in the skill adjustments would introduce a way for the system to be manipulated.

One of the main reasons Bungie has not made an explanation, or rarely comments about it, is because they don't want people to figure out a way to cheat - ANY WAY to cheat. So, the more we don't know how exactly it works, the less likely it is for someone to figure out a way to cheat.

  • 02.24.2008 7:52 PM PDT

Thank you very much, this is the greatest explanation of the Halo 3 ranking system I've ever seen.

Now, I do still require some clarification from anyone who would be willing to help explain. This post has finally shed some light on why I level up so slowly. I believe I do play fairly consistently so I must have a low Sigma value. Currently, I'm a level 44 in Lone Wolves, trying to get to 45, and so on, however its proving very difficult. I believe I came close not long ago, but a streak of 4th and 5th places sent me back down to 43 (in about 4 games). I'm not sure how inconsistently I played during those games, but regardless, I leveled back up after coming in second when I returned to the playlist this week. Ultimately, my question is: in Lone Wolves, would one be able to level up coming in second and third consistently, or is a first place finish required to level up?

  • 02.26.2008 9:07 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: GChief23
Thank you very much, this is the greatest explanation of the Halo 3 ranking system I've ever seen.

Now, I do still require some clarification from anyone who would be willing to help explain. This post has finally shed some light on why I level up so slowly. I believe I do play fairly consistently so I must have a low Sigma value. Currently, I'm a level 44 in Lone Wolves, trying to get to 45, and so on, however its proving very difficult. I believe I came close not long ago, but a streak of 4th and 5th places sent me back down to 43 (in about 4 games). I'm not sure how inconsistently I played during those games, but regardless, I leveled back up after coming in second when I returned to the playlist this week. Ultimately, my question is: in Lone Wolves, would one be able to level up coming in second and third consistently, or is a first place finish required to level up?


You can definately level up coming in 2nd place.

Although Bungie treats 3rd as a win for EXP purposes, it is not clear right now whether they consider it a win for ranking purposes. True Skill, according to the website, would place only little MU change on 3rd and 4th place rankings for a 6 person playlist. True Skill, in an individual playlist, would compare your performance against the MU and Sigma of the other 5 individuals. But since they treat 1st-3rd equally for EXP purposes, it is possible Bungie may have tweaked their system a bit to treat the top 3 places more equally, and the bottom 3 more equally. I definately noticed myself ranking up with 1st, 2nd or 3rds when I played LW's. That being said, we quite honestly are not sure with the limited data we have.

  • 02.26.2008 9:50 PM PDT

Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.

Trueskill systems use a conservative ranking Ranking = mu - (K * Sigma) so your skill is likely to be higher than the actual number represented in your Halo 3 highest skill level. K is a constant assigned an arbitrary value by the developers of the game.

So, K never changes? When is K assigned if it isnt changed? It isnt really fair if you get a random number when your account is made..

  • 02.28.2008 12:42 AM PDT

Posted by: radical00edward
Trueskill systems use a conservative ranking Ranking = mu - (K * Sigma) so your skill is likely to be higher than the actual number represented in your Halo 3 highest skill level. K is a constant assigned an arbitrary value by the developers of the game.

So, K never changes? When is K assigned if it isnt changed? It isnt really fair if you get a random number when your account is made..
K is a constant set by the developer and is the same for everyone. It is not randomly generated for each player.

  • 02.28.2008 8:41 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

I don't post here, in fact this is my first, but I'm a little curious if anyone has any input into my current situation. I've read the details of this post concerning the True Skill system, sigma, mu, etc...

So far I have played 261 games in matchmaking. Aside from the occasional Team Objective, Doubles, random Hardcore and 2 Lone Wolf missions, the overall majority of my games have been played in Team Slayer.

At the time of this post, I have 244 EXP points and a current skill of 20. I've played for two days straight (breaking for sleep and food and life, of course), and at one point we won 40+ games in a row and still I didn't rank up.

I always play with the same team, and we all started on equal footing. I am not the best player on the team, but I have maintained a K/D spread of 1.3-1.5. Just looking at my experience, anyone can do the math and see that I've lost only 16 matches out of 261!!!

Does that make sense to anyone? While I'm not trying to complain and make a big deal about this, it does bother me that I'm not going anywhere it seems. A couple of my teammates have played more matches in doubles without me, but even still, the winning percentages on their accounts are quite high...so if team members winning percentages factors into the equation then that can't be the issue here.

It also sucks that we continue to decimate players at level 20-25, and can't rank up to get more evenly put together matches. Yes, winning is fun, but it's hardly fun when you're rolling over the competition as if they were asleep. There have been a few close matches, and of course a few stingy loses...but overall, we have little difficulty beating anyone who is a legitmate 20-something.

I think this may just be an anomaly...then again, maybe I've missed something. Still seems strange to me. Anyone have a clue???

  • 02.28.2008 10:06 AM PDT

Posted by: G SPOT NINJA
I don't post here, in fact this is my first, but I'm a little curious if anyone has any input into my current situation. I've read the details of this post concerning the True Skill system, sigma, mu, etc...

So far I have played 261 games in matchmaking. Aside from the occasional Team Objective, Doubles, random Hardcore and 2 Lone Wolf missions, the overall majority of my games have been played in Team Slayer.

At the time of this post, I have 244 EXP points and a current skill of 20. I've played for two days straight (breaking for sleep and food and life, of course), and at one point we won 40+ games in a row and still I didn't rank up.

I always play with the same team, and we all started on equal footing. I am not the best player on the team, but I have maintained a K/D spread of 1.3-1.5. Just looking at my experience, anyone can do the math and see that I've lost only 16 matches out of 261!!!

Does that make sense to anyone? While I'm not trying to complain and make a big deal about this, it does bother me that I'm not going anywhere it seems. A couple of my teammates have played more matches in doubles without me, but even still, the winning percentages on their accounts are quite high...so if team members winning percentages factors into the equation then that can't be the issue here.

It also sucks that we continue to decimate players at level 20-25, and can't rank up to get more evenly put together matches. Yes, winning is fun, but it's hardly fun when you're rolling over the competition as if they were asleep. There have been a few close matches, and of course a few stingy loses...but overall, we have little difficulty beating anyone who is a legitmate 20-something.

I think this may just be an anomaly...then again, maybe I've missed something. Still seems strange to me. Anyone have a clue???
If you only play with the same teammates you will either go up very slowly or not at all. I didn't look through all your games but it appears some of them have played with other people and have different levels than you but you've only played with the same people. If this is the case, you will need to play with some different teammates or some randoms for a few games.

  • 02.28.2008 10:44 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

it doesn't take a lot of games to get to level 50 in anything. if you never lost, it'd probably take 100 or so. maybe less. consider HeAdShOt XV.

104 games of Team Doubles, 15 losses. level 50.
126 games of Team Slayer, 17 losses. that put him at 49.

i use this player because he's a level 50 with 292exp, has multiple hoppers over 45, and a K/D of better than 1.5.

another guy, whom we should all know, is StrongSide.

72 games of TS to reach 50. just 5 losses. (if you don't know who he is, then you are in the n3rd safe zone... congratulations)


So it isn't like it takes a lot of games, as long as you are winning. but losing does set you back. as you can see, player 1 got there in doubles after just over 100 games. 22+ games later (a total of 130 TS, with 19 total losses) and HeAdShOt XV is still just a 49. 4 losses in 26 games didn't boost him from 47 to 50. just 49.

and neither of these guys is playing constantly with their own personal team either. the games i looked at rarely had Strongside playing with Walshy and the Orgres, unless they are playing under other names. HeAdShOt XV was the same. several games i peaked at were not the same build as other games (not putting these two in the same class, so don't read anything into it).

i'm just pointing out how BIG losses loom and how 'small' wins are considered.


No Pro team will ever say there's such a thing as a good loss, because no one wants to lose. They will all admit you learn from them, and that sometimes what you learn from a loss is more beneficial than seeing yourself after a win, because it revealed a weakness.

This is the fundamental flaw with the True Skill system. Losses are a HUGE detriment to your ability to increase in level. Victories mean very little unless you string many, many together. Streaks may not add anything to your Sigma or Mu, but they certainly are required to recover lost skill levels from a loss, and even more so to move beyond them. It's no wonder people disconnect to try and keep from actually "losing".

  • 02.28.2008 2:43 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: MorDan Kin
it doesn't take a lot of games to get to level 50 in anything. if you never lost, it'd probably take 100 or so. maybe less. consider HeAdShOt XV.

104 games of Team Doubles, 15 losses. level 50.
126 games of Team Slayer, 17 losses. that put him at 49.

i use this player because he's a level 50 with 292exp, has multiple hoppers over 45, and a K/D of better than 1.5.

another guy, whom we should all know, is StrongSide.

72 games of TS to reach 50. just 5 losses. (if you don't know who he is, then you are in the n3rd safe zone... congratulations)


So it isn't like it takes a lot of games, as long as you are winning. but losing does set you back. as you can see, player 1 got there in doubles after just over 100 games. 22+ games later (a total of 130 TS, with 19 total losses) and HeAdShOt XV is still just a 49. 4 losses in 26 games didn't boost him from 47 to 50. just 49.

and neither of these guys is playing constantly with their own personal team either. the games i looked at rarely had Strongside playing with Walshy and the Orgres, unless they are playing under other names. HeAdShOt XV was the same. several games i peaked at were not the same build as other games (not putting these two in the same class, so don't read anything into it).

i'm just pointing out how BIG losses loom and how 'small' wins are considered.


No Pro team will ever say there's such a thing as a good loss, because no one wants to lose. They will all admit you learn from them, and that sometimes what you learn from a loss is more beneficial than seeing yourself after a win, because it revealed a weakness.

This is the fundamental flaw with the True Skill system. Losses are a HUGE detriment to your ability to increase in level. Victories mean very little unless you string many, many together. Streaks may not add anything to your Sigma or Mu, but they certainly are required to recover lost skill levels from a loss, and even more so to move beyond them. It's no wonder people disconnect to try and keep from actually "losing".


There is no question True Skill is centered around using losses to determine rank. Unfortunately that is why it is not fair to those that improve, because they can never get their sigma back up again.

Basic rule of thumb, don't play ranked when you are playing poorly or you will be digging yourself a long term grave yo get out of.

  • 02.28.2008 4:42 PM PDT

Hard work beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.

Great post. However, i was curious to know if your sigma still rises/lowers after you hit 50? I have hit 50 both in DT and TS. When i played 1 game on my DT rank and lost i went back down to 49. I also played several games on my TS 50 and won, but then lost several in a row. I kept my 50 in the playlist however. So is it possible to get so many games into your 50 where you would have to have significant amount of losses to lower you?

  • 02.28.2008 4:55 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Person A has barely made an account he is somehow the best and never loses a mach, he plays Doubles, since he is new, Trueskill still doesn't know how good he is, it all depends on the win to lose ratio that he will develop, he never lost a match and got to 50.

Person B was the worst player in the world when he started playing, 2 years later he finally gets to 49, Trueskill is still not convinced if he should be a 50 since he been playing for so long, Person b will need to win ALOT of games to raise 1 level, and make Trueskill know that he deserves it. Person B has to prove that he has become an awesome player since he first played,

  • 02.28.2008 5:06 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Very well done, but i have a breif question:

If you started a new hopper and kept winning, wouldn't that eventually become consistent? When does super long streak turn into consistency

  • 02.28.2008 5:35 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

hoppers are independent of each other. because you lost 20 FFAs in a row will not make it more difficult to go from Skill 1 to skill Skill 2 in your first game of DT or TS.


the post previous to that, identifying player A and B, amplifies what is wrong with the current skill system. today my skill may be 43. tomorrow it may be 38. because i'm stupid and playing when i lack concentration, it may be a 25. what should my True Skill be? my best day? my middle day? who defines my middle day? i consistently get 12 kills and have a +6 K/D but my teammates are terrible, thus lowering my rank. is MY skill truly lower? i'm talking. i'm assisting. i'm playing 2:1 on kills to deaths.

there are so many variables to take into account to determine someone's skill in team games. the only place the true skill system is probably even close to accurate is FFA. there needs to be a different system for team games since different skills determine how good you really are.

  • 02.28.2008 7:10 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: MorDan Kin
hoppers are independent of each other. because you lost 20 FFAs in a row will not make it more difficult to go from Skill 1 to skill Skill 2 in your first game of DT or TS.


the post previous to that, identifying player A and B, amplifies what is wrong with the current skill system. today my skill may be 43. tomorrow it may be 38. because i'm stupid and playing when i lack concentration, it may be a 25. what should my True Skill be? my best day? my middle day? who defines my middle day? i consistently get 12 kills and have a +6 K/D but my teammates are terrible, thus lowering my rank. is MY skill truly lower? i'm talking. i'm assisting. i'm playing 2:1 on kills to deaths.

there are so many variables to take into account to determine someone's skill in team games. the only place the true skill system is probably even close to accurate is FFA. there needs to be a different system for team games since different skills determine how good you really are.


omg its DAN! but yeah, there are plenty of variables that go into account, you real level is probably where you lone wolves is at, because you are alone, but the trueskill system does not really work all that well in a ffa environment, there are too many variables when you have a bunch of different individual skills.

  • 02.28.2008 7:53 PM PDT

Posted by: XxJohnnyXxX
Person A has barely made an account he is somehow the best and never loses a mach, he plays Doubles, since he is new, Trueskill still doesn't know how good he is, it all depends on the win to lose ratio that he will develop, he never lost a match and got to 50.

Person B was the worst player in the world when he started playing, 2 years later he finally gets to 49, Trueskill is still not convinced if he should be a 50 since he been playing for so long, Person b will need to win ALOT of games to raise 1 level, and make Trueskill know that he deserves it. Person B has to prove that he has become an awesome player since he first played,
For person A: The system knows how good he is by the time he gets to 50. Even though he never lost a game, his sigma is still getting lower. When a player gets to 50, they should never lose. The system has determined he is the best. This kind of sucks for the 50 because 1 loss can really hurt. If he gets enough wins at 50, it will take a lot of losses to lose it and get lowered.

Keep in mind that the system will recognize a skill increase but depending on how many games you've played, it could take 50 or more. The person will be gaining levels but if you continue to win, your sigma will be higher and you will start gaining 1 level after each couple of wins again.

It's the win a few, lose a few people that take a lot of wins to go up. Also don't forget it's about the skill level of the people you play too. Winning 10 against lower skilled people means little.

  • 02.29.2008 6:47 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

wow. this really helps. very informative.

  • 02.29.2008 6:56 AM PDT

XGO MAAR

"Tactics, FTW!"

This thread was very helpful, i really understand now why i seem to not level up after 7 straight wins....

i kinda jumped to the end of this thread but i have a question...

Does a player have different [sigma] for each playlist? Or is the [sigma] the same no matter what playlist a player plays?

Feels like a stupid question but a good question none-the-less....

  • 02.29.2008 10:27 AM PDT

Posted by: JaDios
This thread was very helpful, i really understand now why i seem to not level up after 7 straight wins....

i kinda jumped to the end of this thread but i have a question...

Does a player have different [sigma] for each playlist? Or is the [sigma] the same no matter what playlist a player plays?

Feels like a stupid question but a good question none-the-less....
Yep, every list has it's own skill level and therefor Mu and sigma.

  • 02.29.2008 1:03 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Can someone explain how the ranking works for Lone Wolfs? Does it count for 3rd to 1st place as a regular win? Or does hitting 3rd and not 2nd lessen your chance of going up.

For the last 50 Lone Wolve Games, I have scored 3rd place and up for 45 lone wolve games, and only 5 losses.
It's taking forever to go up from 45, please explain, too lazy to read through all 44 pages.

[Edited on 02.29.2008 8:30 PM PST]

  • 02.29.2008 8:28 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

a week ago, i was a 39 in team slayer
over the past week, it went as low as 33 because i lost a level, then lost more when i boneheadedly tried to earn them back myself instead of waiting for my team

however, ive won many games with my team and im back to a 39, but i can never seem to level to 40, despite losing one game then going on a streak of 9 straight wins, which actually saw me go from 38 to 39

why cant i level up, is it because im playing in a mixed party(a friend suggested this)
or is it that i lost so much before that the system wont level me up until i win something like 20 straight?

  • 02.29.2008 11:36 PM PDT

Posted by: Regggie Noble
a week ago, i was a 39 in team slayer
over the past week, it went as low as 33 because i lost a level, then lost more when i boneheadedly tried to earn them back myself instead of waiting for my team

however, ive won many games with my team and im back to a 39, but i can never seem to level to 40, despite losing one game then going on a streak of 9 straight wins, which actually saw me go from 38 to 39

why cant i level up, is it because im playing in a mixed party(a friend suggested this)
or is it that i lost so much before that the system wont level me up until i win something like 20 straight?
Yes, it is. Playing in a mixed party will either make leveling up very slow or prevent it completely.

Here is a quick TriuSkill FAQ I created to answer some of the most common questions.

  • 03.01.2008 7:03 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

http://static.highend3d.com/galleryimages/663/screen.jpg

So basically if you win consistently your skill raises...we all knew that already?

  • 03.01.2008 1:22 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Alot of this makes since but I still think that there might be something wrong with the rank system as of lately. I have won 29 TS games in a row now and I have not leveled up from a 21. Your Mu though works for most but I am starting to think that I pissed some one off at bungie. I mean come on 29 straight wins and not even 1 level increase, thats weak!

  • 03.03.2008 10:32 AM PDT