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This topic has moved here: Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
  • Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.

tenizer, i dunno where you get your info but i think your retarded. This is a ranking system its not a bottle of water i could careless how much you think you know about physics, bungie never said there couldnt be alot of 50's. It only makes sense there wouldnt' be alot because somebody has to lose right??? Well someone does NOT have to rank down for you to go up. But if someone does lose to you you will gain mu they may or may not rank down depending how low there mu is and close to the level below them. But if you beat a 50 and your close to 1 win away from being 1 that doesnt mean he has to lose his 50 for you to be one. I never seen anything in there about bungie or kafungus saying that. i mean you were the one that didnt believe that k/d ratio didnt matter. the reason the guy cant move up is while he was worried about those achievments he lost a ton of games and the system remembers that and now his sigma is really low because hes won alot and lost alot so its gonna take forever for him to move up not because there is no space. This game sold like 2 million copies in its first day or something like that an people ranked up like crazy there is very little less room now than there was in the first week. Its just you start out with really high sigma and now everybodies sigma is evening out and its slowing down. Maybe hes not better than a 34 but from losing all those games the system doesnt really know because he was even playing for real and had a ton of losses. Thats the explanation so stop saying the cap on 50 has to do with anything at all because it doesnt. the reason 50 is the lowest percantage is because its hard to get lose a couple games and you go back down. My brother is a 50 we lost 5 games in a row and he didnt lose his 50. not everybody can be 50 but i guaruntee you if people were good more than 30 percent i think could be.

  • 11.20.2007 8:04 PM PDT
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Does this take in all of the matchmade games? Such as, if i win three team slayer games and then switch to lone wolf will my mu and sigma change for each mode or not?

  • 11.21.2007 2:12 AM PDT
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Maybe I'm crazy but my problem with the ranking system is not that I don't understand it (and thanks to the few who have given very good explanations of how it likely operates behind the scenes). My problem with the ranking system is that is isn't a true representation of skill. Bungie has stated that they never intended it to be a representation of skill but only a way to match up similarly skilled players...huh? um...Bungie that is a contradiction in terms. How can you matchup similarly skilled players if you don't have a number representing their skill? So obviously Bungie's definition is flawed.

Halo 3 is an FPS...plain and simple. And as far as I'm concerned (and I think many would agree with me) there are only two criteria that should define a player's skill in an FPS:
1) How good a player is at killing other players
2) How good a player is at not being killed by other players

K/D ratio is the onyl true representation of those criteria and thus it should be used as an indicator of skill. Would anyone disagree that a player in team slayer that averages 20 kills and 10 deaths should be ranked way higher than a player who averages 17 kills and 15 deaths but wins more of his matches?

The fundamental flaw in Bungie's ranking system is it doesn't measure true skill and it is far too dependent on luck of the draw. As many have pointed out, Bungie is penalizing players who lose games...which really has nothing to do with skill (in a team game) but a hell of a lot more to do with what teammates you get stuck with.

Why doesn't Bungie take out the subjectiveness of this flawed ranking system and simply use an objecive piece of data: How many people you've killed versus how many people killed you. Anyone see a flaw in this far simpler and more accurate representation of a player's skill?

  • 11.21.2007 7:19 AM PDT
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I am not trying to sound stupid, but why would Bungie care about you knowing the "inner workings" of their system?

  • 11.21.2007 8:09 AM PDT
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Posted By: HeWhoHathNoLife
Maybe I'm crazy but my problem with the ranking system is not that I don't understand it (and thanks to the few who have given very good explanations of how it likely operates behind the scenes). My problem with the ranking system is that is isn't a true representation of skill. Bungie has stated that they never intended it to be a representation of skill but only a way to match up similarly skilled players...huh? um...Bungie that is a contradiction in terms. How can you matchup similarly skilled players if you don't have a number representing their skill? So obviously Bungie's definition is flawed.

Halo 3 is an FPS...plain and simple. And as far as I'm concerned (and I think many would agree with me) there are only two criteria that should define a player's skill in an FPS:
1) How good a player is at killing other players
2) How good a player is at not being killed by other players

K/D ratio is the onyl true representation of those criteria and thus it should be used as an indicator of skill. Would anyone disagree that a player in team slayer that averages 20 kills and 10 deaths should be ranked way higher than a player who averages 17 kills and 15 deaths but wins more of his matches?

The fundamental flaw in Bungie's ranking system is it doesn't measure true skill and it is far too dependent on luck of the draw. As many have pointed out, Bungie is penalizing players who lose games...which really has nothing to do with skill (in a team game) but a hell of a lot more to do with what teammates you get stuck with.

Why doesn't Bungie take out the subjectiveness of this flawed ranking system and simply use an objecive piece of data: How many people you've killed versus how many people killed you. Anyone see a flaw in this far simpler and more accurate representation of a player's skill?

Agreed.

  • 11.21.2007 8:14 AM PDT
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So do you SICKREALSKILLZ, make a habit of calling people retarded ? Or is it in you nature ?
Hey so thats easy, anyone can call anyone retarded.
Im not going to start slagging you off, OR calling you a fxxking RETARD.Just because i dont agree with your ideas you fxxking APE MAN.
ANYWAY can you explain to me "APE MAN", how everyone can be 50 skill ????? Cause thats basically what you trying to say . RIGHT ?
And if you think that then your the Fxxking RETARD.
PS. Fxxk off back to the "JUNGLE"

  • 11.21.2007 9:06 AM PDT

Posted by: HeWhoHathNoLife
Why doesn't Bungie take out the subjectiveness of this flawed ranking system and simply use an objecive piece of data: How many people you've killed versus how many people killed you. Anyone see a flaw in this far simpler and more accurate representation of a player's skill?

In a FFA game such as Lone Wolves, the system only considers your individual skill. You get the most kills, you win the game. Having a better K/D ratio can also be argued as not being a "true" measure of skill. In FFA, you have to put yourself out there and earn the kills, you cannot camp and pick off people. So which person is more skillful? The person who puts himself out there and earns the most kills or the person who camps and gets a high K/D ratio?

In a team game, the system is not basing your skill on your individual performance. You must work as a team to get the win. Changing it to award players skill based on kills or K/D ration is flawed for team games. If you could be on the losing team, have the most kills and still level up people would stop playing as a team for the win. The would play as individuals and not worry about everything else it takes for a team to win besides just getting the most kills.

The system is not flawed, You win games against people higher than you, you got up - showing your skill increasing. Yes Bungie is penalizing players for losing games! You shouldn't get rewarded for losing!! You don't get a Super Bowl ring for losing the Super Bowl even if you threw the most touchdowns or had the most rushing yards.

  • 11.21.2007 9:07 AM PDT
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we need the lvs to go up to 100 or 75

  • 11.21.2007 9:16 AM PDT

Posted by: ten1zer7
ANYWAY can you explain to me how everyone can be 50 skill ????? Cause thats basically what you trying to say . RIGHT ?

I cut out the dumb stuff cause it's just, well dumb. Just like saying only reply if your know about quantum physics or statistics since you post had nothing to do with them.

Not everyone can be a 50 because some have to lose for some to win. Raising the skill cap above 50 would make it easier to get to 50 but it wouldn't fix or solve anything. Whatever the new cap is would then become hard to get to. Having a 100 50's or 1000 50's wouldn't imbalance anything and they are not setting odds. There is no squeeze to get to the top in a sense only so many people can be a certain level like you are suggesting. It's harder to level up when you get to the top because you have to win consistently against equally or higher skilled people and there are less of them.

  • 11.21.2007 9:23 AM PDT
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I've read through a lot of the thread and I think its funny how so many people have taken a perfectly good expanation of the ranking system and have used it as a vehicle to whine about how the game sucks because it doesn't accurately reflect their "real" skill level. Two points: 1. If you so convinced that your 'real' skill level is so much higher, how come you aren't consistently winning enough games against similarly or higher ranked players? You are great a dominating a room full of newbie friends but can't perform against people better than you. Man up and start winning. 2. I'm all about the kill/death ratio, but it isn't an accurate reflection of your 'skill' if you define skill as how adept you are at winning games involving people of equal or greater skill. If you want to define 'skill' as being able to mow down a room of 20's when you are a 40--then I guess you are the man. There is really only one explanation as to why you consistently place low in rooms with players of equal or greater skill and therefore have trouble ranking up--you aren't ready to rank up. The people you are playing with are better than you. The fact of the matter is that when all is said and done, if you are stuck on 20 and you think you are really a 30 it isn't because the system is flawed--it is because you are losing rather than winning. Develop your skills, watch the game replays, figure out where you are weak and get better.

  • 11.21.2007 9:28 AM PDT

thing is that my skill in TS is 21, even tough my friends whom have played longer are all in about 17-18, yet we almost always DESTROY our opponents, and their skills remain rather constant, and mine increases (i usually get MVP or at least the best K/D ratio), so i think that MVP or K/D ratio does matter in TS
in this week i have won at least 90% of my matches, including a shotty sniper on highground where i ended up as the only one n my team against 3, yet still won

perhaps crazy feats boost up the "sigma" asnd allowed my to jump 5 levels in as many games

  • 11.21.2007 1:01 PM PDT
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P L E A S E R E A D A N D R E P L Y
The true skill system is broken. I'm a 40 in lone wolves. and only a 28 in team slayer. this would be fine with me if my win/lose weren't so drastic. I have lost a total of 11 games in team slayer but i have won 126 games. I have 66 steaktacular metals. That mean that 66 games we have won by at least 20 kills. Team Slayer have become boring because the competition is so weak. My friends and I get together and play team slayer all night but lately we just stop playing together and play lone wolves or something else because, as stated prior, The competition is weak being matched up with other 28s. If my friends all have the jump on my rank. they are in the 40s or so. I try to play team slayer solo but I have the wears luck with random teammates. my 11 loses are mostly from doing just that. almost every lose I lead both teams in kills. I'm human and I'm not always playing smart but I feel like I'm in some sort of matchmaking purgatory.
Any Ideas???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Edited on 11.21.2007 1:26 PM PST]

  • 11.21.2007 1:21 PM PDT

Join Planet Reach
Hog sniping
Exalted is considered "the highest" because you can't get any bans or warnings of any kind for quite a long time, which is harder than just being a member for a long time.

Beautiful stuff...

I like my mental understanding of it better... that's probably why I also still complain

  • 11.21.2007 1:27 PM PDT

Join Planet Reach
Hog sniping
Exalted is considered "the highest" because you can't get any bans or warnings of any kind for quite a long time, which is harder than just being a member for a long time.

Posted by: o MANNY o
P L E A S E R E A D A N D R E P L Y


My buddy and I had a similar problem... seems he had to venture off on his own to go up past about 35...

I got stuck at about 27/28 with him, and then shot up to 32 in a couple of games without him...

Now that we both leveled up (32 and 46) we are getting much better games.

I also had a TON of steaktaculars in Slayer before we decided to level-up alone.

  • 11.21.2007 1:29 PM PDT
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I was being ironical when mentioning quantum physics, im sure you know what that means, seeing you seem to know everything about everything else jay1 20171..
ANYWAY , 50 skill level "is not a standard"
50 skill level is a representation of a percentage of the people playing on halo 3.
It's harder to level up when you get to the top because you have to win consistently against equally or higher skilled people and there are less of them.
I agree with your last sentence.
50 skill level is the top 2 % of players on halo3. "COMPARED TO EVERYONE ELSE"
If 50 skill level was a certain standard then theory would say yes it is possible for everyone to reach 50 skill., but its not..
If 100 people were only playing halo3 and the cap was still 50.Then 2 APPROX people would reach 50 and the rest would take up the lower positions .
IF too many players were on 50 skill then the the rest of the skills 1-49 would be uneven.And that cant happen. WHY.
Because there are more lower skill players and that means there are more matches, ""more matches need more players""
The matchmaking would not work, so the higher skill you are the less players there are , i agree with you there.
Because 50 skill is not a standard,, its a percantage % turned into levels of skill so we can read it better., infact 50 skill level should read TOP 2 PERCENTAGE PLAYERS.
The amount of 50 skilled players will GROW as a percentage of the total amount of players on h3.
It will not go above that percentage.
eg. 100 total players on h3 = 2 players on 50 skill level
1000 total players on h3 = 20 players on 50 skill level
10000 total players on h3 = 200 players on 50 skill level
Taking away the 50 cap is the ideal way. ,, meaning that those 200 players on 50 skill can move up without having to move down to let a lower rank player move up.
There can only be 200 50 skill players in a total population of 10000 players..
So for me to reach 50 skill, i will have to knock a 50 skiller out of that 200 percentage of 2 %
IN effect making it harder to move up now than at the beginning .

READ THIS

http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&cid= 12901

Look under RANK AMATEURS





[Edited on 11.21.2007 3:58 PM PST]

  • 11.21.2007 1:59 PM PDT

Posted by: Colin KAPOW
thing is that my skill in TS is 21, even tough my friends whom have played longer are all in about 17-18, yet we almost always DESTROY our opponents, and their skills remain rather constant, and mine increases (i usually get MVP or at least the best K/D ratio), so i think that MVP or K/D ratio does matter in TS
in this week i have won at least 90% of my matches, including a shotty sniper on highground where i ended up as the only one n my team against 3, yet still won

perhaps crazy feats boost up the "sigma" asnd allowed my to jump 5 levels in as many games


You said it yourself, they have been playing longer then you. the more you play the slower you rank up and or down.

  • 11.21.2007 5:08 PM PDT
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Well, and this has been said(in the newspaper) that halo 3's ranking system is based on Bullsian Mathmatics. Now with Bullsian mathmatics every new number entered has slightly more weight then the previous one. So if you played two indentical games that went win-lose, then you would lose a little skill. Ask questions if you want, but I don't know how to explain it any better.

[Edited on 11.21.2007 8:18 PM PST]

  • 11.21.2007 8:16 PM PDT
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Also this would mean that if you lost 10000 games then won a single match, then you would likely advance multiple levels since the games weight would have been increased 10000 times. But the number of increase with each new game is unknown.

[Edited on 11.21.2007 8:19 PM PST]

  • 11.21.2007 8:17 PM PDT

ten1zer7, I don't know everything - wait, was that "ironical" too? Yes, obviously only a certain percentage of players will reach level 50. It's not a set percentage but in theory only a small percentage of the total H3 population will get to the highest level. I guess you are making an argument for raising the cap above 50 and I don't understand why, Maybe it's because you want to get General, I don't know. I don't see the point in raising the cap otherwise.

  • 11.22.2007 7:42 AM PDT
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I can think of a few reasons why it would be better to set the 50 cap at a no limit cap.

1. It would tell us whom the best players are in the proper order. , , ." World chess federation is a great example" We know WHO the best player is.

2.It would make it a fairer system, , people starting to play halo now are at a big disadvantage.

3. It would make room for all of us to move,,, Thats what this thread is about,, people complaining about not moving up after winning a few games.
get rid of the 50 cap and you would see your progress, at the minute its happening so slow its like watching hair grow.

4. You would have an equal balance of skill level, meaning a 30 skill would be relative to a 40 skill. At the minute a 30 could beat a 40 no problem.

5.And the most important thing is that it would be the top players that would be spread out past the 50 skill, it would not effect us that much but to give a better picture of our true skill .And give us all ROOM to move up and down the skill levels with ease .At the minute to reach 50 skill you have to be BETTER
than a 50 skiller, because you have to win on a regular basis against these players.

Remove the cap and a 30 would beat a 40 less rarely. Giving you a truer skill reading.
And as for becoming general, i think that whole thing should be scraped.. The ranks do not work only for bragging rights.

And i would recommend after getting killed in h3, The respawn clock should be increased to 10 seconds, at the minute no one cares about getting killed
as long as they clock up there points by killing as many as possible without giving a toss about there own possible death.
This takes away alot of tactics that could be used if the spawn clock was set higher. Making it a more realistic strategic game.





[Edited on 11.22.2007 9:02 AM PST]

  • 11.22.2007 8:53 AM PDT
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Posted by: ten1zer7
It means your not skillfull enough to reach 34 yet..
It pretty simple really, it all about percentages %.
The system takes in the total population of lone wolves, only so many percent can be 50 skill, a bit like balancing the book in horses racing.
So 50-1 is 2% of the book and 9-1 is 10% of the book ect ect. only its reversed in the halo3 system.
You cant have too many at 50 skill or the book will become unbalanced, so for you to reach 33 skill badboy190, your going to have beat someone at 35+ and knock them down to your 32 skill so in effect you can rise into that 35+ percentage.
The higher skill you reach the harder its going to be to move up, because bungie insisted on capping the skill at 50.
In simple terms we are all in a bottle of water trying to swim to the top, but the top is getting narrower and narrower, and its getting harder to swim past the weight and squeeze of people at the top.
Now if bungie would just open that bottle of water we could all swim a little quicker and easier.
But in saying that the swim will be easier but the end result will still be the same, it is all relative, you will still be a skillfull 32 badboy190 but you would find moving up a lot quicker than it is now.
And if you know nothing about quantum theory and statictics, dont bother replying.


Ahh, thanks alot, this really helped me understand, now i know what to do :) once again, thanks alot mate.

  • 11.22.2007 9:09 AM PDT
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Ok, i got a question, say only 2 percent of people can get 50 skill right? what if they get it, and never play for example LW again? does that meen no one could get 50 in lone wolves?

  • 11.22.2007 9:19 AM PDT
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15 games straight ---> 3 ranks, at LOW (18) level in doubles not to mention a perfection without a rank up. Take into account those 15 games that we won in team doubles are more total than I have played in the rest of team doubles while still achieving the rank of 18 in less than 15 games. My teamate and me did around same (but I consistently had a much better ratio, usually only a FEW deaths per game and was usually mvp) and he advanced 23 levels...... hmmmm so he's at a 34 and I'm at a 21, that doesn't make sense at all. Another PROVEN testimonial that the ranking system IS BROKEN. I just don't know how else to convince the kids that swear by it..... but it's coming for you sooner or later, and you will curse it and realize that you were talking out of your ass, I promise you that much.

[Edited on 11.22.2007 3:54 PM PST]

  • 11.22.2007 9:34 AM PDT

I love chips!

Microsoft did a talk at my Uni about the true skill system. They use basian updating to figure out the trueskill on the 360. I could try and find my notes to give more information.

  • 11.22.2007 11:51 AM PDT

I love chips!

Here you go

http://www.cs.manchester.ac.uk/research/seminars/school/abstr acts.html?date=1170201600
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7142

  • 11.22.2007 11:59 AM PDT