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  • Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
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Posted by: THECROCE
so umm would you mind expalining the skill increases with a mixed team? there 52 pages, and couldnt seem to find what im looking for. Im currently a 31 and 21 in team slayer. my friend is a 30 overall and 12 in team slayer, and my other friend is just an 11 in team slayer. None of us are increasing in skill very much. they both have extremely low exp while i have about 500. both of them have only lost a couple of games. weve won 20 games straight, and theyve only really ranked up from 7-11, and ive gone from 20 to 21. what gives, how many games are we expected to win before we rank up? most of the people weve played are better skill levels than them, and around my skill level. care to rexplain how skill gainign works in a multi skilled team? / seems ridiculous to win 20 games in a row, and rank up 1 skill level. does severely beating the other team have anything to do with it?


I experienced the same on my test account. The mixed party restrictions are less than they were, but they definately still severley penalize you when trying to rank up. Also playing with the same people NEVER helps...which is really unfortunate because it discourages you from playing with friends.

I think its pretty much as simple as that.

  • 04.08.2008 9:44 AM PDT
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Posted by: The 1nevitable
I have a few questions aswell.

I'm still not a 50, but have not yet lost hope. Most of the time I play really well and go positive quite a lot.
I've heard people say that the amount of EXP affects the speed at which you rank up. I had some doubts here, because this would mean that a Brigadier G2, who got all his exp in Social Matches, would rank up just as slow as a Brigadier G2 who got all his exp in Ranked TS. So, does the amount of EXP affect your ranking progress.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that there was a game (win) that brought me from my 48 to my 49. After that I lost a match, got my 48 back. Then I won 3 in a row, and remained at 48. This means that I lost more level exp in 1 match, than I won in 3 matches. Some people say that if you lose a match you will have to win 5 more to get the 'win' back.

Regards


EXP has nothing to do with ranking speed, as per Achronos himself.

As for your 49 to 48, you must have lost a lot of MU due to lower skilled guys, and then got poorer matchmaking quality for the next 3 games. Sorry I didn't go look but thats what I would expect you will find.

  • 04.08.2008 9:49 AM PDT
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Posted by: Hampster Farm
Listen Einstein...... That was almost lamens terms, accept is still does not explain why the Mu is kissing the Ka off. Too bad that if you learned how to play the game, you lost out from the start on ranking. It's too proprietary, now that I'm better, I want my Mu & Ka reset!

"No Halo for old men"

"If youd'a have told me 20 years ago, that our young people would be walking around with green hair, and bones sticking out of their noses, I flat out wouldn't a believed ya!"


No one is arguing that its a perfect or even good system, this thread is simply to explain how it works. In fact, I hate it myself too because sigma should be dynamic and behave in the true statistyical definition of sigma. I myself was severley penalized for learning to play the game within the ranked playlists.

It is what it is...better to understand it than get frustrated without understanding it.

  • 04.08.2008 9:51 AM PDT

Baaaaaaaaaaaaah

As for your 49 to 48, you must have lost a lot of MU due to lower skilled guys, and then got poorer matchmaking quality for the next 3 games. Sorry I didn't go look but thats what I would expect you will find.


But this then means that there are actually huge differences between the amount of 'level exp' you get from beating/losing to certain teams even if the skill levels are equal. Because when I lost this match that made me drop to a 48 again, let's say I lost 10 level exp (10 is just a random number). This would mean that there are also teams that only give like less than 3,33... level exp. I never knew these differences were so big.

  • 04.08.2008 9:55 AM PDT
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The higher the Sigma of your opponents, the less Mu you gain from beating them.

Predictable outcomes (e.g. win against a lower ranked opponent) are treated as statistically less significant. Upsets are given more weight. So, winning against lower ranked opponents doesn't do much for your Mu rating. Neither does losing against higher ranked ones. But beat a team that's 6 or more ranks above you and at least someone on your team will rank up.


Regarding above quote and underlined bit, when it is said 'rank up' what are you refereing to. Is it rank as in major etc, true skill, or in-game level?

  • 04.08.2008 12:22 PM PDT
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Posted by: The 1nevitable
Baaaaaaaaaaaaah

As for your 49 to 48, you must have lost a lot of MU due to lower skilled guys, and then got poorer matchmaking quality for the next 3 games. Sorry I didn't go look but thats what I would expect you will find.


But this then means that there are actually huge differences between the amount of 'level exp' you get from beating/losing to certain teams even if the skill levels are equal. Because when I lost this match that made me drop to a 48 again, let's say I lost 10 level exp (10 is just a random number). This would mean that there are also teams that only give like less than 3,33... level exp. I never knew these differences were so big.


Yes there can be huge differences in the amount of MU you gain from certain teams vs others....and its impossible to predict. It has less to do with their visible ranks, but more with their invisible MU and Sigma's and how they relate to your invisible MU and Sigma (and even the team that you are on).

  • 04.08.2008 4:45 PM PDT
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Posted by: WBAGNR
The higher the Sigma of your opponents, the less Mu you gain from beating them.

Predictable outcomes (e.g. win against a lower ranked opponent) are treated as statistically less significant. Upsets are given more weight. So, winning against lower ranked opponents doesn't do much for your Mu rating. Neither does losing against higher ranked ones. But beat a team that's 6 or more ranks above you and at least someone on your team will rank up.


Regarding above quote and underlined bit, when it is said 'rank up' what are you refereing to. Is it rank as in major etc, true skill, or in-game level?


He's referring to a gain in true skill/MU, not ranks associated with EXP (majors, etc)

  • 04.08.2008 4:46 PM PDT
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so if a lot of not ranking up depends on sigma how could you make your sigma rise to rank up more

  • 04.08.2008 5:40 PM PDT
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Posted by: RageAgainst93
so if a lot of not ranking up depends on sigma how could you make your sigma rise to rank up more


You cant really increase sigma from the literature we have seen. Sigma declines after each game played, with losses dropping it more than after a win. There seem to be some cases, such as undefeated people, whereby sigma may actually inceases temporarily due to flaws in the formulas used. This isn't to say we are 100% sure, as Bungie did mention they made some small changes recently to the ranking system, which may or may not have included the ability to increase your sigma slightly. I haven't seen any recent evidence to think this is true though.

  • 04.08.2008 6:55 PM PDT
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Well done. I sa-mu-lute you.

  • 04.08.2008 7:22 PM PDT

i think the problem with the trueskill system is that while the system gets more certain about your skill level as you play more games and it becomes harder to level up or down, the system doesn't seem to take into account your skill improving. you can have a ton of exp and the system is sure it knows your skill level, but then as you get better you're still stuck at your old rank.

  • 04.08.2008 10:47 PM PDT

Why couldn't Bungie made something based on Stats?

  • 04.08.2008 10:53 PM PDT
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hey thanks for postin the forum but just wondered dus the true skill system wrok on social slayer obviously the mu dusnt on it unless the player level isnt shown but wud sigma?

  • 04.09.2008 8:57 AM PDT

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This is prolly the most indepth ranking system I have seen..

  • 04.09.2008 9:21 AM PDT
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Posted by: TVs Ron Banwart
i think the problem with the trueskill system is that while the system gets more certain about your skill level as you play more games and it becomes harder to level up or down, the system doesn't seem to take into account your skill improving. you can have a ton of exp and the system is sure it knows your skill level, but then as you get better you're still stuck at your old rank.


Yep that's the biggest drawback. Punishes people that have improved.

  • 04.09.2008 10:59 AM PDT
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nice explanation, but one time i lost skill for WINNING, can u explain that for me plz

  • 04.09.2008 11:14 AM PDT
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Posted by: SAMIUL93
nice explanation, but one time i lost skill for WINNING, can u explain that for me plz


Because your sigma dropped...remember it drops even when you win. Probably didn't gain much if any MU from whoever you beat, likely do to poor matchmaking quality. You would have been on the brink between levels, and the sigma change might have rounded your rank down.

  • 04.09.2008 11:58 AM PDT
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Quoted from the first post:

"Higher Sigma simply means your level is more fluid. Sigma is good to have high when you are still reaching your appropriate skill level, but good to have low once you've reached it and are working on improving."

So it's good to have a high sigma when trying to reach your desired level faster. When you do reach it, how do you lower your sigma so it doesn't decrease on one loss, since having a high sigma can increase and decrease your level dramatically?

Another question:

So your Mu and Sigma is based on your win/lose ratio? So out of like 100 games, your win/lose ratio is like 70/30, your Sigma and Mu will increase?

  • 04.09.2008 8:07 PM PDT
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Posted by: SwiTcH 14
Quoted from the first post:

"Higher Sigma simply means your level is more fluid. Sigma is good to have high when you are still reaching your appropriate skill level, but good to have low once you've reached it and are working on improving."

So it's good to have a high sigma when trying to reach your desired level faster. When you do reach it, how do you lower your sigma so it doesn't decrease on one loss, since having a high sigma can increase and decrease your level dramatically?

Another question:

So your Mu and Sigma is based on your win/lose ratio? So out of like 100 games, your win/lose ratio is like 70/30, your Sigma and Mu will increase?


Sigma drops significantly over the ifrst 50-100 games of a playlist...drops more if you lose than if you win.

Your MU is based on your win/loss, whereas as Sigma is known to drop after every game, even if you win. You gain and lose MU based on your performance against other players and their own MU's and Sigmas.

  • 04.09.2008 10:55 PM PDT
Subject: Thank You

I thank you very much but in the truth bungie is only slightly based off of this and as they said before they will not discuss thier true ranking system with us because it is very hard to understand and if they tried to tell us most of us would still not get it because they use very complicated methods of coding and proccessing over xbox-live.

  • 04.10.2008 4:46 AM PDT
Subject: Very helpful

Thanks a lot that explained a lot and was easy to understand hope to see more threads from you maybe some tips because im not brilliant lol ty again :D

  • 04.10.2008 6:48 AM PDT
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
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Good post but what really grinds my gears is when someone makes a new account and is a gunnery sergent at level 39-40. Why is the sigma value still so high with them it should drop significantly because of how well they're doing. It really is a system that screws over people who have experiance and just play on one account.

  • 04.10.2008 7:32 AM PDT

great post, good job, i read through the whole thing and will recomend my halo interested friends to do tha same ;)

  • 04.10.2008 7:44 AM PDT

Posted by: Baaaaaaaaaaaaah
Really shows the effects of low sigma. Neither you nor I have ever been an advocate of starting new accounts to circumvent sigma, but in my case it seems to be worthwhile. I'll let you know once it has stalled out and we can look at it more in depth.
I think if a player has a lot of games, 200 or more, in a list and then gets better, like enough to start winning a lot, it would be good for them. Otherwise it will take a large number of wins to get your skill level moving again.

I made an alt and got within a few levels of my original TS level in like 100 games. My original account leveled fast too but I played a lot of LW and SS before I jumped in to TS. It may be good for those that lose a lot in the beginning. I will agree that playing with as many different teammates as possible seems to increase how fast you level. We know for a fact that playing with the same people and/or mixed skills really holds you back.

I still think the fastest way to level in TS is going in alone. A good player can carry a team of randoms all the way in to the 30's no problem. Then they can party up to go up from there. I played with randoms all the way up to 40 and then started teaming up to get to 46 at this point on my alt. It seriously only took me 100 games to get to 40 - playing with randoms. I believe that playing in a party not only gives you tougher matches, it hampers the speed at which you level.

  • 04.10.2008 8:52 AM PDT
Subject: Thank You

Posted by: SnyderMan
I thank you very much but in the truth bungie is only slightly based off of this and as they said before they will not discuss thier true ranking system with us because it is very hard to understand and if they tried to tell us most of us would still not get it because they use very complicated methods of coding and proccessing over xbox-live.
There has been a lot of new info discovered since the original post. Yes, Bungie uses a modified TrueSkill system but through examining a ton of games and gamer tags, reading the MS pages, reading posts by various Bungie employees and reading the PowerPoint Bungie published, we have surmised how H3's system works fairly closely. Yes, it's hard to understand but there are some that understand it. The info that has been given in the last 20-30 pages is the most recent and accurate.

  • 04.10.2008 9:01 AM PDT