Halo 3 Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
  • Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.

i understand nao!!!

  • 09.30.2009 9:14 PM PDT

Well done buddy.... ppl need to know these things.....


thanks again!

  • 10.02.2009 5:47 PM PDT

So i guess that means im -blam- to stay at 45 forever. oh well...

  • 10.04.2009 4:58 PM PDT

I unlocked Recon have you?

Wow now i finally understand THANK YOU! know my friends will be spared of my complaining how i have 5 MVP's in a row and they come bottom of the team and yet they go up everytime and i go up once in every blue moon. i am consistant, if i get in with people with lower r the same skill level i seem to do well although if they are more than 3+ above me then i fail
Epically

  • 10.05.2009 2:10 PM PDT
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How can i get RECON ?

  • 10.05.2009 4:50 PM PDT
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If you're going to behave like an idiot, at least try to use proper grammer and spelling.

Posted by: Mr Freezeer
How can i get RECON ?


Get all the Vidmaster achievements...

Anyway I finally under stand why in lonewolves I went from 33-35 in one game :D And why when I occansionally come below 3 I lose skill :(

Thank you :)

  • 10.06.2009 4:05 AM PDT

BYAHH

Great post. Really informative.

  • 10.06.2009 9:32 AM PDT

Very interesting and informative, not that simple but i still get the picture ok and this explains a lot to me now. Nice work!

  • 10.06.2009 2:24 PM PDT

Posted by: E60MkNeelz360
I see people who have negative 380 xp. Is that because their sigma is high and they basically level every time after a win?
Without getting it to a lot of the details, you can increase your sigma for a playlist by quitting hundreds of games in that playlist. This will not help this person gain skill levels quicker once they stop quitting. It does however help pull "high quality" matches when teaming up with a new account. This will "boost" the new account up quickly. It really is only effective for small team lists - AKA Team Doubles.

Simply quitting a bunch of social games will do nothing for you when playing ranked lists as EXP has no direct correlation to the skill system.

  • 10.07.2009 7:08 AM PDT

The Song Of Nephilim

Xenoblade <3

Does exp matter in this. Cause I have like 2735 exp and like it takes forever to go up

  • 10.10.2009 12:36 PM PDT
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Soo... I was playing doubles with my roommate, we started form Rank 0 both of us. We got to rank 14 (losing only 5 games out of 16. Then from that moment on, we had a 40 game streak of winning. I would say that's pretty consistant...
Now, can someone explain to me why we ranked up to a level 23 easily (within 6-7 games), then didn't rank up for 5 games, then ranked up to a 28 (within 5 games), then didn't rank up again for 14 games? And after that spree was over, the first time we lost after 40 games in a row... we ranked down. That's messed up.

  • 10.12.2009 4:23 PM PDT

i won 17 of 20 matches in team swat and only got from 2 to 5 in rank and i haz 17 xp in it and i beat sum pro teams with high levels wtf?????

  • 10.12.2009 5:54 PM PDT

Posted by: OMGiTzSquintz
Soo... I was playing doubles with my roommate, we started form Rank 0 both of us. <snip>
Playing all of your games with the same teammate when starting a new list is your problem. Play 4 or 5 games with a random or other friend who has played a lot, then team back up and you will level normally.

More detailed explanations can be found on every other page of this thread if you want more info.

  • 10.13.2009 7:18 AM PDT

Hello, I believe that FFA is the best correlation that could relate to the TrueSkill.

Because for a team game such as TS, its all based on luck.

I do have a question though

1. How does FFA account for TrueSkill? What do they look for instead of just Wins/Losses and the skill levels of the players? For FFA, do they look for the numbers you were placed after the game?

2. So how does the skill calculate when you have some players who quit the game? is it like the Gears of War 2 where for instance if you were playing a team game 5 vs 5, and 2 people from my team quit and lost. At the end we lost to the 5 people opponent team, but won against 2 people who quit?
What about in FFA?

3. So how many games do we need to play in order to settle down the sigma and mu? I thought it was at least 100 games, so I'm playing Lone Wolves 100 and Team Slayer 100 in order to see my "True" Skill. does it vary depending on the player? since sigma value is versatile?

You need to help me with this. thanks

[Edited on 10.15.2009 10:19 AM PDT]

  • 10.15.2009 10:17 AM PDT

Posted by: Jay120171
Posted by: E60MkNeelz360
I see people who have negative 380 xp. Is that because their sigma is high and they basically level every time after a win?
Without getting it to a lot of the details, you can increase your sigma for a playlist by quitting hundreds of games in that playlist.
No, no. Having a high sigma slows your teammates down. The goal of quitting is to make the system 100% sure that you are terrible (which means low mu and low sigma) - that's achieved by losing, and quitting is an effective way to rack up losses.

1. How does FFA account for TrueSkill? What do they look for instead of just Wins/Losses and the skill levels of the players? For FFA, do they look for the numbers you were placed after the game?
Everyone is placed in the order by points, and then the factor graph does things that are too complicated to simplify. It's more or less "loss against everyone you lost to and win against everyone you beat", but that's a rough estimation (to be honest, just a guess to the right direction). Play around with this to see how it works.

2. So how does the skill calculate when you have some players who quit the game? is it like the Gears of War 2 where for instance if you were playing a team game 5 vs 5, and 2 people from my team quit and lost. At the end we lost to the 5 people opponent team, but won against 2 people who quit?
What about in FFA?
In team games, quitting does not effect anything. The teams win and lose as a team; that means a quitter will go up if his team wins. The TrueSkill guys have developed a "partial-play" system, but it wasn't ready for Halo 3. Both the partial play and no partial play systems are accurate in their own way, and pp is more prone to abuse in visible-rank games. In FFA, the quitters are ranked below the other players, and amongst themselves ranked by points, after which the skills are updated as usual.

3. So how many games do we need to play in order to settle down the sigma and mu? I thought it was at least 100 games, so I'm playing Lone Wolves 100 and Team Slayer 100 in order to see my "True" Skill. does it vary depending on the player? since sigma value is versatile?50-100 according to the bungie pdf. For an average player, lieutenant means that his skill is certainly stabilized.



[Edited on 10.15.2009 11:06 AM PDT]

  • 10.15.2009 11:06 AM PDT

Thanks a lot for the info, in the last 3rd answer, where can I see that bungie pdf? any link will be appreciated. thanks

  • 10.15.2009 11:18 AM PDT

Posted by: Mutoid Log
No, no. Having a high sigma slows your teammates down. The goal of quitting is to make the system 100% sure that you are terrible (which means low mu and low sigma) - that's achieved by losing, and quitting is an effective way to rack up losses.
I don't agree but if what you say is true, explain to me how someone can quit 100's of games, party up with a new account and get the new account to 50 in 25-30 games - even gaining skill against players lower than they currently are.

Account boosted to MLG 50

Account used as an enabler (booster)

  • 10.15.2009 11:24 AM PDT

Simple. The boosters quits out of a lot of games, and this causes his team to lose most of them. By losing a lot of games, his mu and sigma become very low, which means that the system is certain that he is terrible. Now when a new account "carries" him to victory every time, the system thinks that the new player must be very high skilled, and thus raises his mu and drops his sigma quickly, making him reach a high level very fast.

  • 10.16.2009 6:13 AM PDT

Posted by: Mutoid Log
Simple. The boosters quits out of a lot of games, and this causes his team to lose most of them. By losing a lot of games, his mu and sigma become very low, which means that the system is certain that he is terrible. Now when a new account "carries" him to victory every time, the system thinks that the new player must be very high skilled, and thus raises his mu and drops his sigma quickly, making him reach a high level very fast.
How does playing unpredictably (losing a most of your games) lower your sigma? The system is arranging matches with a high probability of draw and if almost all of those matches result in the player losing, the system is less confident the player is ranked appropriately.

The problem is, a player who is a legit 10 (low mu & sigma) playing with a new account will not have the same effect as a person who was higher and quit a ton of games to get down to a 10. The legit 10 and a new account will not get to 50 in 25-30 wins. You are saying these 2 accounts are virtually the same as far as the system is concerned with a low mu and sigma. They simply cannot be and by looking at the equations the only reason can be because of a few factors - sigma & match quality.

  • 10.16.2009 7:37 AM PDT

Firstly, unexpected results actually lower sigma more than expected ones, as we see from top right here.

For the relation between teammate sigma and mu change, this clearly tells that lower teammate sigma = higher mu gain (the sigmas in c = team sum sigmas).

A large amount of lost games acts as overwhelming evidence for the player being bad. And due to quitting, the player's performance in each game is incredibly consistent; the exact same every time, actually.

And yes, a legit ten should level a new account up as fast as someone who quit to ten. If they had the same sigmas, that is. But thanks to the consistency of the quitter, he may have a lower sigma, and thanks to that also lower mu, than a standard legit player at the same level.

  • 10.16.2009 7:04 PM PDT

xwh1tw0lfxtra

idk.your rank either goes up,down,or stays

  • 10.16.2009 7:05 PM PDT

Remember, organic foods are good for you.

Very well explained and thought out... Even if I didn't understand half of it. :P

  • 10.18.2009 8:20 AM PDT

Posted by: Mutoid Log
Firstly, unexpected results actually lower sigma more than expected ones, as we see from top right here.

For the relation between teammate sigma and mu change, this clearly tells that lower teammate sigma = higher mu gain (the sigmas in c = team sum sigmas).

A large amount of lost games acts as overwhelming evidence for the player being bad. And due to quitting, the player's performance in each game is incredibly consistent; the exact same every time, actually.

And yes, a legit ten should level a new account up as fast as someone who quit to ten. If they had the same sigmas, that is. But thanks to the consistency of the quitter, he may have a lower sigma, and thanks to that also lower mu, than a standard legit player at the same level.
Wait, what? Uncertainty is lowered more for an unpredictable outcome compared to a predicted outcome? Also, the lower the sigma, the higher the MU gain? No, look again.

The equations will almost always lower sigma, the point you missed is that the simple act of losing is not what increases his sigma. Yes, the sigma change, based on the equations, is minimal for the dude quitting a 100 games. The "enabler" part of it is the Tau value. This is a developer set variable and is the amount of sigma added back in between each game. Bungie reportedly has this set as high as they can without forcing a significant MU change after every game.

So you are partially right. Yes the sigma change is minimal when looking at the equations. It TAU that enables a player to increase their sigma. It is the increased sigma (enabler and new account combined) that gets them not only high quality matches (against established accounts with low sigma), but factors MU gain up and allows them to gain skill levels quickly.

  • 10.19.2009 6:15 AM PDT