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  • Subject: new idea of ranking "special member"
Subject: new idea of ranking "special member"

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

I guess, Foman, that I agree with you. Nothing more than flagging abilities, and possibly a title, should be given.

There's one thing that I just can't get over, though. In the real life, people obey laws because there are valuables that can be lost: money (fines), time (jail), life.

However, not having any elitist structure is a double-bladed sword. There is no value to an account. If we adamantly go against any form of holding one member to a higher value than another, people are simply going to see their accounts as dispensible, as they can start over from scratch with the same abilities that they had and were ever going to get.

Sure, you don't have the possibility of members going around saying, "I'm better than you are" (to be honest, it still happens regardless), but what we do get is an effective and powerful reason for people to not obey the rules; no lasting consequences.

Posted by: atomic weggie
The bottom line is if Achronos doesn't want to appoint new mods because he says it's hard to trust people, then he's sure not going to give a large percentage of the B.net population access to special priviledges or roles.


A thing that I think is a problem. Granted, his oppinions aren't completely unwarranted, as there are many people who shouldn't be trusted watching the proverbial grass grow, but I feel that the trust issue exists because there's no connection or median position between the hierarch postions and the base members. The current base population is far too big to pick and choose from, but if a middle-ground was established that granted something on the lines of thread-flagging privelages, then Achronos/Moderators could promote members without fear of serious reprocussions.

For example, we've got Joe Forumgoer here. Now, Joe Forumgoer is a respectable member. He helps some people here, posts quite a bit there, all on a regular, daily basis. He knows and respects the rules. He runs an active Chapter, and moderates in one or two more. He once had a sticky about how to fix network issues in Halo 2. Now, suppose a new moderator is needed; would Joe Forumgoer be a likely candidate? Of course not, he's just a single fish in a vast ocean. So vast an ocean that he seems indifferent next to other fish.

Now, a similar scenario. Same member, same participation. This time, Bungie.net has a position entitled "Senior Member" or whatever you'd like to call it. Joe Forumgoer has done a good bit for the community, as described earlier, so a moderator promoted him to this position. Joe takes his responsibilities seriously, and is careful not to bump heads with others because of his new title and abilities. However, a new moderator is soon needed. Would the selecter look in the member pool? Not very likely; there's a perfectly good middleground where one could scrutinize a much smaller queue of members, ones that have abilities that slightly resemble those of actual moderators. A much more effective trust system would develop here, as it's a smaller base of members with greater responsibility with their roles in the community.

[Edited on 11.13.2007 2:54 PM PST]

  • 11.13.2007 2:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Excellent point in the second half of your post, prommy. I think that such a system, over time (perhaps over a long time), would be more reliable for establishing trust at the website administrator level.

  • 11.13.2007 2:55 PM PDT

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The only thing I'm wondering is who would be responsible for the picking of this middle-ground member? If it were to be the administrators, I do not think they would have enough time to not only pick the Senior Members (just a working title), but to make sure they stay in line. Would it be the moderators? Personally, I would think they would get more spam messages asking why they weren't picked, and more requests to be picked, at least in the beginning. That's why I think an invisible title would be best, and the user gets certain powers that do not actually reveal themselves to other members, but the moderators know who is who.

  • 11.13.2007 2:59 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: roman arrow12
The only thing I'm wondering is who would be responsible for the picking of this middle-ground member? If it were to be the administrators, I do not think they would have enough time to not only pick the Senior Members (just a working title), but to make sure they stay in line. Would it be the moderators? Personally, I would think they would get more spam messages asking why they weren't picked, and more requests to be picked, at least in the beginning. That's why I think an invisible title would be best, and the user gets certain powers that do not actually reveal themselves to other members, but the moderators know who is who.


Hmm...

If it were my choice, I'd have the moderators do it, but beforehand, a news article announcing the new title would list some bogus (it exists, but no one really uses it), serious sounding account as the "decision-maker". Certainly, the bogus account could get swarms of PM's, but the moderators could effectively, and stealthily (They're Ninjas, remember?), pick members.

As far as keeping them inline, both moderators (All moderators or Master Forum Ninjas only?) and Admin would be able to see the flagged list (those threads that have been recently flagged), so any deviance would be taken care of by them on a level commensurate to their offense and title, whether it be warning, loss of abilities, temp. blacklisting, and/or banning from Bungie.net.

  • 11.13.2007 3:13 PM PDT

Halo3Planet, the place for all things Halo 3..

Need help finding skulls, make sure to go here.

The only thing I really have a problem with would be titles. But, I guess the members they choose wouldn't flaunt it about. Then again, they probably said the same thing about several ex-mods... Anyway, I don't really see a need for a title, except either to show they are higher than other members, or maybe for members to see who they can go to for help. I guess it doesn't really matter either way, as long as there is some kind of new device implemented, I will be happy.

  • 11.13.2007 3:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
No.

i like prommys idea but without a title. Reduced elitism in the ommunity plus all the benefits.

  • 11.13.2007 3:27 PM PDT

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Posted by: Cockburnicus
You missed the point like Vader missed the banshee, your whole argument is covered in bees.
Stop sending me group invites -blam!-s!

Posted by: Duardo
No. It would just promote elitism.


Frickin A.

Anytime anyone comes up with an idea, someone always says it will promote elitism. It's getting really old guys.


That's not a fair accusation. Remember when join dates were beside post dates? People used to get so big headed over something as simple as that.

  • 11.13.2007 3:42 PM PDT
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Talk to the Soul | ~B.B. | Know Your Duardo |  | Hero | ISFJ | 77135 | 94371

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."

To be honest, I really don't see a problem with certain members having titles. Look at the Webcam MVPs, they don't go around being arrogant and flaunting their title around. I dont see how 'senior member' would be any different.






To muffin man one: I did not say it would promote elitism, Insanity Man did.

I've seen great ideas get thrown out over the years because someone says it will elitism. You guys cant be scared of this thing everytime someone suggests an idea.

[Edited on 11.13.2007 3:52 PM PST]

  • 11.13.2007 3:45 PM PDT
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Posted by: muffin man one
That's not a fair accusation. Remember when join dates were beside post dates? People used to get so big headed over something as simple as that.


Used to?

Look at the Webcam MVPs, they don't go around being arrogant and flaunting their title around. I dont see how 'senior member'would be any different.

Webcam MVP was gained through a very specific set of easily-judged criteria and carries no real weight. You don't gain anything from it. "Senior Member" implies (well, it states) seniority, and would likely not have specific set of public criteria. If it came with extra abilities, as some have suggested, people would clamber for it. Hell, even if it didnt, people still would. Just look at recon armour - it actually looks like ass, but people will still sell their mothers for it, simply because it's perceived to be "better" by virtue of its rarity. However, unlike recon armour, trying to get it won't get you banned. Unfortunately, the first port of call for most people attempting to gain seniority will be rabid brown nosing and tossmongery. It's not worth it, in my opinion. Special awards for specific achievments (like theme master, webcam mvp) are a much better solution that a general "senior" member title.

[Edited on 11.13.2007 3:51 PM PST]

  • 11.13.2007 3:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Duardo
To be honest, I really don't see a problem with certain members having titles. Look at the Webcam MVPs, they don't go around being arrogant and flaunting their title around. I dont see how 'senior member'would be any different.
Agreed, Duardo. That's a great point.

To expand upon what I was saying before, a "senior member" or "veteran member" pool of community members might be one good way to PARTLY (not fully) establish trust. Members who were put in a higher "tier" would be a much smaller pool of people, easier to scrutinize, and have more to lose from bad behavior, including and especially elitism. Moreover, this would give regular members something to strive for.

As I always say (and so do you too, prommy) with this elitism argument: if that is the only reason for the community not wanting something like this implemented, then it seems to be a no-brainer to go ahead and do it. People who act in an elitist manner can have their privileges stripped easily enough -- it's happened before, and would be quite simple to do again.

And as has been said many times before, the types of people who would receive these new responsibilities are not the type to abuse them anyway. To illustrate this in a slightly different context, I have played dozens -- maybe hundreds -- of games of Halo 3 with BNet moderators, and have never heard a single one of them brag about (or even mention) that they have the Recon armor before, during, or after a multiplayer game. Why? Because they are not the type to flaunt or brag about special privileges; if they were, they likely would not have been made moderators in the first place.

Anyway, I am fine with the system as it currently is -- I am on here on-and-off all day long at work, and I never have a problem following good discussions. But my opinion, at least, is that an improvement in the forum culture in several of the forums here is definitely needed. If it could be relatively easily implemented, a "Senior Member" tier with a reporting/flagging responsibility seems like a pretty decent start with few drawbacks.

Posted by: elmicker
Unfortunately, the first port of call for most people attempting to gain seniority will be rabid brown nosing and tossmongery. It's not worth it, in my opinion. Special awards for specific achievments (like theme master, webcam mvp) are a much better solution that a general "senior" member title.
I think we disagree here. I think that it is worth it.

Although brown-nosing and "tossmongery" (whatever that is) might be annoying, it is certainly a better alternative than flaming and mayhem. I'd much rather see people trying to help the community -- even if it is an obvious attempt to gain more revered status -- than bypassing the blam filter in order to make inappropriate suggestions about topic creators' personal "preferences."

Furthermore, just because somebody brown-noses does not mean that they MUST be given that Senior Member status. Look at all of the moderator brown-nosers who remain regular members. I would trust the judgment of whoever was making those decisions to be able to determine when somebody deserved to be placed in a higher tier, and when they were merely trying to "rank up" as if this is all a game.

[Edited on 11.13.2007 4:02 PM PST]

  • 11.13.2007 3:55 PM PDT

Halo3Planet, the place for all things Halo 3..

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Posted by: x Foman123 x
[quote]Posted by: Duardo

And as has been said many times before, the types of people who would receive these new responsibilities are not the type to abuse them anyway. To illustrate this in a slightly different context, I have played dozens -- maybe hundreds -- of games of Halo 3 with BNet moderators, and have never heard a single one of them brag about (or even mention) that they have the Recon armor before, during, or after a multiplayer game. Why? Because they are not the type to flaunt or brag about special privileges; if they were, they likely would not have been made moderators in the first place.


That's the only thing I'm not sure about in your post. Didn't Achronos think the same thing about the moderators? I doubt he thought some of them would begin to act unmoderatorly. So, it is pretty apparent that it can happen. Some people will flaunt it. The only question is, is it worth it to see some flaunting? Or should we just not do it at all? I really don't know what I think on this matter.

  • 11.13.2007 4:00 PM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

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It depends.
Would I get such a title?

.. No, just kidding. I think it'd be a fine idea. Reading over Foman's posts, and a few others in here, I think it'd be a great idea, with responsible users, from the admin level to the member's themselves.

  • 11.13.2007 4:01 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: roman arrow12
Posted by: x Foman123 x
[quote]Posted by: Duardo

And as has been said many times before, the types of people who would receive these new responsibilities are not the type to abuse them anyway. To illustrate this in a slightly different context, I have played dozens -- maybe hundreds -- of games of Halo 3 with BNet moderators, and have never heard a single one of them brag about (or even mention) that they have the Recon armor before, during, or after a multiplayer game. Why? Because they are not the type to flaunt or brag about special privileges; if they were, they likely would not have been made moderators in the first place.


That's the only thing I'm not sure about in your post. Didn't Achronos think the same thing about the moderators? I doubt he thought some of them would begin to act unmoderatorly. So, it is pretty apparent that it can happen. Some people will flaunt it. The only question is, is it worth it to see some flaunting? Or should we just not do it at all? I really don't know what I think on this matter.
Yep you're right -- even though it does not happen often, it really does go to show how hard it can be to trust people. For that, I don't blame Achronos at all.

Of course, creation of a middle tier of members with nominal responsibilities might be a pretty good buffer to separate out a good pool of people whose behavior can be quite easily monitored in a very mild and controlled context. If they show that they can be trusted, then great, they can continue to be Senior Members and perhaps some of them could fill moderator roles when needed. If they can't be trusted, well then, all they've really done is brag about a title which can be easily removed (which would be quite embarrassing for the bragger). There would not be nearly as much harm to the community as could be done by a person with both ill intentions and moderator abilities.

[Edited on 11.13.2007 4:08 PM PST]

  • 11.13.2007 4:07 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

About that whole elitism thing, the people who use their title as a weapon could always be removed of that title. Just, uh, saying...

  • 11.13.2007 4:14 PM PDT

$x='print chr(36),"x=",chr(39),$x,chr(39),";\n",$x; ';
print chr(36),"x=",chr(39),$x,chr(39),";\n",$x;

I work at Microsoft. I have nothing to do with Halo and nothing I say is "the official word".

Theme Masters :)

we have enough ranks I think

[Edited on 11.13.2007 4:19 PM PST]

  • 11.13.2007 4:18 PM PDT

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Posted by: CAVX
About that whole elitism thing, the people who use their title as a weapon could always be removed of that title. Just, uh, saying...

And if that member did, they would be killed instantly. Or the title would, anyway.

Notice the guys with Webcam MVP? You might have, you not have. I'm sure a lot of people didn't even notice, and that's partly due to the fact that none of them flaunt it about.

  • 11.13.2007 4:23 PM PDT

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Need help finding skulls, make sure to go here.

Posted by: SS_Zag1
Posted by: CAVX
About that whole elitism thing, the people who use their title as a weapon could always be removed of that title. Just, uh, saying...

And if that member did, they would be killed instantly. Or the title would, anyway.

Notice the guys with Webcam MVP? You might have, you not have. I'm sure a lot of people didn't even notice, and that's partly due to the fact that none of them flaunt it about.


I also think it's because that title holds no special privileges, and the newer members probably don't even understand it. If the title were like Senior member, it would be easy to assume that person is better/more trusted than you, so probably has more responsibilities or power. But that's just my take.

  • 11.13.2007 4:27 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: roman arrow12
I also think it's because that title holds no special privileges, and the newer members probably don't even understand it. If the title were like Senior member, it would be easy to assume that person is better/more trusted than you, so probably has more responsibilities or power. But that's just my take.


I can't disagree with that. While you can try to assuage people's feelings, undoubtedly more than one person will think Senior Members are arrogant bastards that just brag about their position, whether it be true or not. But frankly, if the idea fails, we'd be little worse off than we are now, and, since we have no rights here, it'd be easy for the Webmaster to simply say, "Get caught bragging about the title and a 7-day + loss of title forever for you!" I'd agree with those terms.

I'm not saying your or anyone's worries aren't to be credited. They are legitimate. I just feel that the possibility of improvement is worth the so far discussed risks.

  • 11.13.2007 4:38 PM PDT
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I dont think elitism will be a problem. Those days are dead and gone and those responsible have pretty much all gone. As i said, the problem will be bottom up. This is purely down to the sheer volume of people who come and go. Yeah, eventually, people would get the idea and stop being morons about the special people (who'd obviously be nice and helpful and inform them to stop being morons), but that doesnt really matter when there's 3 more ready to take his place. Quick fix to this would be to simply increase the numbers of "senior" members, so it appears commonplace. You'd stop the idiots posting about it, but then you run the risk of the senior title losing its value and the risk of idiots becoming senior members.

Obviously this is all conjecture; the only way to see what'd happen is to do it. Might be worth it just to see who's right :D

  • 11.13.2007 4:49 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: elmicker
Might be worth it just to see who's right :D


If I were of legal age, I'd drink to that.

  • 11.13.2007 4:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Agreed, elmicker :-P

[Edited on 11.13.2007 5:00 PM PST]

  • 11.13.2007 4:59 PM PDT

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Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
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Unless you had 100,000 moderators, you couldn't keep track of the 1 million members' actions in order to reward them. Many of those who deserve the reward, would never be recognized.

  • 11.13.2007 5:25 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: cortana 5
Many of those who deserve the reward, would never be recognized.


But everyone who would deserve said reward isn't getting it now. At least with such a system there's a possibility.

At risk of sounding geekish, was it not Dr. Halsey who said "I can't save everyone, but at least I can save someone." I think it was something on the lines of that.

  • 11.13.2007 5:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: cortana 5
Unless you had 100,000 moderators, you couldn't keep track of the 1 million members' actions in order to reward them. Many of those who deserve the reward, would never be recognized.
Because a higher status with greater responsibilties would entail some kind of familiarity with both reading and posting in the forums, I think that it is a safe assumption that the vast majority of deserving individuals would be relatively frequent posters and thus somewhat identifiable. For this reason, I am not convinced that your post is true. But even if it is, is that a reason not to do it?

  • 11.13.2007 5:35 PM PDT

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Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Posted by: cortana 5
Unless you had 100,000 moderators, you couldn't keep track of the 1 million members' actions in order to reward them. Many of those who deserve the reward, would never be recognized.
Because a higher status with greater responsibilities would entail some kind of familiarity with both reading and posting in the forums, I think that it is a safe assumption that the vast majority of deserving individuals would be relatively frequent posters and thus somewhat identifiable. For this reason, I am not convinced that your post is true. But even if it is, is that a reason not to do it?

Well, it just wouldn't be fair. I mean, say 100 members get the title, but there are like 50 more who deserved but the staff didn't get to see their records. That would kinda suck to be one of those 50 members. After helping out members/newbies, contributing to posts, ect. it would suck to not be recognized for you hard work.
Posted by: prometheus25
Posted by: cortana 5
Many of those who deserve the reward, would never be recognized.


But everyone who would deserve said reward isn't getting it now. At least with such a system there's a possibility.

At risk of sounding geekish, was it not Dr. Halsey who said "I can't save everyone, but at least I can save someone." I think it was something on the lines of that.

After reading that, my opinion has been swayed a little. That's a really good point there.

[Edited on 11.13.2007 6:02 PM PST]

  • 11.13.2007 6:00 PM PDT