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  • Subject: How can the world exist?
Subject: How can the world exist?
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Posted by: ajenteks
Posted by: Canadian_MC
Obbi what do you mean by finite?
And noone seems to answer the question, alot of you have said how it all started, I am not asking that, I am asking how that is possible?


In all logical sense, it isn't possible. We shouldn't even be here.


http://www.braungardt.com/Physics/Vacuum%20Fluctuation.htm

[Edited on 6/7/2004 8:40:10 PM]

  • 06.07.2004 8:39 PM PDT
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Posted by: ajenteks
Posted by: Canadian_MC
Obbi what do you mean by finite?
And noone seems to answer the question, alot of you have said how it all started, I am not asking that, I am asking how that is possible?


In all logical sense, it isn't possible. We shouldn't even be here.
Which is EXACTLY my point, you cant get to the middle of the book without a begginning, and as far as I am concerned, a beginning is impossible.

  • 06.07.2004 8:41 PM PDT
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You seem t'all be stuck with the beliefs that there must be a beginning, causality must follow time one way, and that time must have ends to be finite. Any limits we impose based on our very limited experience are arbitrary. We need to learn to drop prejudices about spacetime and causality to have this kinda discussion.

Time seems to be an aspect of our reality continuum, as longitude or latitude is an aspect of the surface of a globe. Phenomena we define in human terms are usually located somewhere in space and time. In the small, limited context of human experience here on this rock, we have things usually happening before what they cause and after what caused them. That pattern doesn't necessarily have to hold true. We have evidence of these rules, but no proof and no understanding of how and why they apply to what. Open up your minds, folks.

[Edited on 6/7/2004 9:00:13 PM]

  • 06.07.2004 8:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Posted by: ajenteks
Posted by: Canadian_MC
Obbi what do you mean by finite?
And noone seems to answer the question, alot of you have said how it all started, I am not asking that, I am asking how that is possible?


In all logical sense, it isn't possible. We shouldn't even be here.


http://www.braungardt.com/Physics/Vacuum%20Fluctuation.htm


Ideas are just ideas.

  • 06.07.2004 8:52 PM PDT
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Ideas are just ideas.

Is that a dismissal? If so, you must also dismiss every other idea.

After all, all of those are just ideas.

  • 06.07.2004 8:54 PM PDT
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Also, those “ideas” are mathematically sound.

  • 06.07.2004 8:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Also, those “ideas” are mathematically sound.


Ancient myths fit with the science of the time too.

There are ideas, and then there are facts.

  • 06.07.2004 8:59 PM PDT
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Posted by: ajenteks
[quote]Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Also, those “ideas” are mathematically sound.

Ancient myths fit with the science of the time too.

There are ideas, and then there are facts.


There are also a lot of facts that were once ideas.

  • 06.07.2004 9:01 PM PDT
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True, but I dont see how facts explain what created everything.

  • 06.07.2004 9:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: Canadian_MC
True, but I dont see how facts explain what created everything.


Did you even read that link?

  • 06.07.2004 9:07 PM PDT
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I was thinking that time's just some arbitrary directional axis, and we just happen to have our causality mostly "flowing" along it in one direction. There might be another region of our spacetime continuum with stuff aligned differently so that that way *points in an arbitrary direction in space* is toward the future and what we call time is just another axis of movement.

  • 06.07.2004 9:08 PM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
[quote]Posted by: Canadian_MC
True, but I dont see how facts explain what created everything.


Did you even read that link?[/quoteSome of it.

  • 06.07.2004 9:10 PM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet

There are also a lot of facts that were once ideas.


And a lot of ideas that have never been factually proven. Until then, while there are plenty of hypotheses and ideas and equations, there is still no concrete answer for how something came from nothing.

  • 06.07.2004 9:10 PM PDT
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OK i read the link, it doesnt seem to tell me where a vaccuum would come fom, it also says there is no such thing as "nothing" so there cant have been a beginning!

  • 06.07.2004 9:13 PM PDT

bah

Facts will NEVER explain the ultimate question, the question that transcends the facts themselves. Although it is possible we may yet unravel the secrets of how THIS universe formed, we will never know what caused it. The ultimate curse of the scientist is this: there is no end to the line of questions. People preach of God creating the universe, and scientists balk at this, but in the end, how can science determine a supreme God coming into existence is less probable than time and space spontaneously forming into an infinitesimal dot before exploding into what we now know as our universe? In the end, we have no explanation for how the universe was formed. Religion's answer is as good as science's. We cannot answer a question that transcends ourselves. We can only come up with accurate models that explain all the facts that we now have. You can either root your beliefs in religion, or go with science which is always changing. Either way, know this: We will never know the answer of what came before the universe as we know it.

Oh, and by the way, this has nothing to do with religion, just an explanation of why this particular line of thought is completely pointless to follow.

One more thing: The universe will never collapse. It's rate of expansion is actually accelerating due to negative energy. Just thought you might like to know.

  • 06.07.2004 9:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: ajenteks
Posted by: ObbiQuiet

There are also a lot of facts that were once ideas.


And a lot of ideas that have never been factually proven. Until then, while there are plenty of hypotheses and ideas and equations, there is still no concrete answer for how something came from nothing.


Very good.

  • 06.07.2004 9:18 PM PDT
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I don't agree with the religious beliefs, even if a "God" created it, who made him?

  • 06.07.2004 9:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: Canadian_MC
I don't agree with the religious beliefs, even if a "God" created it, who made him?


Why even worry about it? If you know that it's impossible, why waste time and energy on it?

  • 06.07.2004 9:21 PM PDT
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Because I want answers, it is annoying to not know how everything you know of came to be. And that is what I am trying to figure out, is it possible?

  • 06.07.2004 9:23 PM PDT
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Posted by: Canadian_MC
Because I want answers, it is annoying to not know how everything you know of came to be. And that is what I am trying to figure out, is it possible?


Best of luck to you then, because I don't think anyone is ever going to know.

  • 06.07.2004 9:25 PM PDT
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Yup. My conclusion: We should not be here.

  • 06.07.2004 9:27 PM PDT

bah

Posted by: Canadian_MC
I don't agree with the religious beliefs, even if a "God" created it, who made him?
That's exactly my point. The good thing about being religious is that you can largely ignore this question. A man of religion will say "God always has, and always will, be." Ask some scientists what came before space, and they'll tell you "Space always has, and always will, be." What came before God, what came before space, either question is quite impossible to answer. It's best just to stop thinking about it. Nothing came before. Or maybe the universe exists in a constant explosive state. Every 40 trillion years, when all the matter of the previous universe has "evaporated" out of existance and all of the forces are nullified once again, that tiny ripple in space forms where energy and anit-energy is created, and then it explodes...

  • 06.07.2004 9:29 PM PDT

bah

And don't get me wrong, I love discussing stuff like this, just not on a forum. It's too hard because you'll be on one line of thought, someone asks "why?" then you have to go back to another one. Easier just to handle the whole thing in Soffish Chat. Grab a client to get in, and ask away. I'm sure ObbiQuiet would be happy to log on and help answer questions too. PsyConnect, the first PC client, is a really small download, easy for any connection speed. This is all unofficial chat though, but even though Bungie doesn't host it, there are plenty there who make the download well worth it.

  • 06.07.2004 9:36 PM PDT
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We're mostly stuck thinking that causality follows time. Time's just another aspect of reality. We can only be reasonably sure that our reality continuum spans some amount of time, which might or might not have boundaries. I like Hawking's North Pole analogy: the Big Bang is the point in time where causality is meaningless because there are infinite conditions that could lead to or from it, time being bi-directional. As the globe has infinite longitude lines in two dimensions (non-Euclidean), time has infinite progressions from the big bang in 24 dimensions or whatever you wanna say it is. These infinite progressions are the infinite possibilities that can emerge from the Big Bang State. We're somewhere along a superposition of all such lines that we haven't diverged from, to put it in quantum mechanical terms. This assumes that the Big Bang State is a singularity, of course. Don't think that I hold that assumption too...

Edit:
Note to hypothetical readers- What I meant by time being bi-directional is that physical laws seem to work the same way going both ways. If I hypothesize condition A and run time one way, stuff will probably happen, leading to different condition B. If I start at B and run time in the opposite direction as in the previous thought experiment, I should arrive at A because the rules by which things change are independent of time direction. It's suspected that this breaks down somewheres, so that I can't run a system through time one way along the exact same path as the other way. This would mean that I can run time backwards to put a system in a state that cannot develop into the state at the time where I started running it backwards! It's kinda werid.

If not to talk about interesting things, what're these forums for?

[Edited on 6/7/2004 9:57:32 PM]

  • 06.07.2004 9:38 PM PDT
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Lol, it just bugs me to know that there is an answer somewhere out there but it's impossible to find.

  • 06.08.2004 2:53 PM PDT