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Subject: Human Pistol

SB-117

Yeah. I always thought that the pistol was Overused, not Overpowered. Perhaps with the alternate Battle Rifle and Carbine there are more choices for mid-range? Anyway....I hope the pistol is back but maybe without the scope because you shouldnt dual wield scope weapons.

  • 06.08.2004 6:20 PM PDT
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I agree that dual weild with a scope would be hard to keep balanced if it had power and range similar to the pistol, but the new 'magnum pistol' if it is indeed the replacement for the M6D could be single-weild only because of its heavy feedback. I think that would be the best way for keeping the old pistol without risking heavy unbalance.
I'm also glad there will be a variety of mid-range weapons. Would be nice to have certain ones that excel in different aspects (accuracy at rance/power differences for example). That way people's complaints would be limited to power of the turrets and homing on rockets.

  • 06.08.2004 6:30 PM PDT
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I bet halo 2 will have the magnum pistol with more damage but only like eight shots and no scope

  • 06.08.2004 6:40 PM PDT
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i STRONGLY agree to removing the scope and decreasing the accuracy at long ranges.


No, i loved the pistol the way it was. The scope may not have made sense, but was halo multiplayer fun anyways, YES it was. The mulitplayer is perfectly balanced, or else it wouldn't be as fun as it is.

  • 06.08.2004 6:41 PM PDT
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i really dont carw about the pistol it was way overpowered and all multiplayer became was a pistol fight...i just hope the assult rifle stays

  • 06.08.2004 6:44 PM PDT
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Sorry but i really doubt the assault rifle will be in halo 2.

  • 06.08.2004 6:53 PM PDT
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Pistol in Halo 2 would make the plasma sword COMPLETELY useless if you were real good and snuck up you may be able to get a kill but 3 hits and you dead. I definately think it should be excluded or severely tuned down. If you want the pistol so bad just play halo 1 there will still be people playing it online.

  • 06.08.2004 6:55 PM PDT
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really i think the pistol was fine as it is and that it should be included in halo 2. and if it dident have the scope or the accuracy then no one would use it. i think bungie made and intended it to compete with other weapons in the game and just not a crappy sidearm. and besides whos to say theres not some weird super technolegy that makes the pistol own.

  • 06.08.2004 7:20 PM PDT
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Posted by: Midget1211
really i think the pistol was fine as it is and that it should be included in halo 2. and if it dident have the scope or the accuracy then no one would use it. i think bungie made and intended it to compete with other weapons in the game and just not a crappy sidearm. and besides whos to say theres not some weird super technolegy that makes the pistol own.


Id still use the pistol with decreased accuracy and no scope. You can still get head shots in just not as easy/ affectively. Plus bungie has even admitted that the pistol was overpowered.

  • 06.08.2004 7:59 PM PDT
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Posted by: Scipio
Shadow, get over yourself. Winning a few games in LAN parties, Halo PC especially or on XBC doesn't mean anything. Besides, trying to impress me over the internet is downright pathetic.

Now, I'll explain why people use the pistol so much, since it is just so terribly hard to understand.

The pistol is what you'd call a mid range weapon. You can shoot up to 120meters and it remains very accurate at about 100 meters. Other weapons are capable of shooting up to similar ranges (AR has the same range and shotgun and plasma rifle go up to 100 meters). These weapons, with the exception of the sniper rifle, however are rarely effective past 50meters. Ok, you know all these ranges and you're thinking 'Ok, so what?' well I'll tell you.
Where do the majorities of gunfights start? Mid to long range. Most of the time the people you see are out of the effective range of the majority of weapons. Is this sinking in? People use the pistol so often not because it's 'uber powerful' (you won't stand a chance at close range against somebody with a plasma rifle unless your name happens to be Ogre-1), but rather because it's the most effective weapon at the most common range people engage one another. The pistol is the ONLY weapon effective past 50m besides the sniper rifle. It's not the pistol's overpowering, but because the other weapons can't hit anything past your nose. Now, please, stop calling the pistol unbalanced because there is no other weapon intended for its range that you can compare it to.

Alright, so there you have it. People like the pistol, which is actually a well rounded weapon, because it's the only one that is ideal for the range most shootouts are at. Other weapons are balanced out with it (with the possible exception of the AR or needler, both of which have pretty much gotten the shaft from Bungie) because they can demolish somebody with a pistol at close range. Likewise, past 120M you'll never hit a sniper with a pistol nomatter how hard you try.

There are no overpowered weapons in Halo. There are only the AR and needler wich are in desperate need of some help. The stopping power of the pistol makes sense considering it's explosive nature and high-calibur, and it's effecacy at range is a moot point because no other weapons are designed for long range but the sniper rifle.


You prove my point its the ONLY weapon that suceeds in mid range combat and in halo 1 mp maps there's few maps (BG and sidewinder) were the sniper rifle takes advantage of this range advantage you speak. And you have to be nuts to think it's not overpowered only the shotgun is more powerful up close, PR overheats needler sucks and the AR takes a whole clip to kill someone yet the pistol can kill with three shots if your good. Perhaps it's not the pistol being overpowered more than it is that everything else is underpowered (In Halo 2 with dual wielding and improvements to the AR needler and new guns like the brute nade launcher and carbine) in fact if you read the first strike novel the pistol is MORE powerful. I trust that bungie will balance things out.

And me being "full of myself" someone attacked my skills based off a FORUM POST ON THE INTERNET!!!!!!! thus I was only defending myself as a Halo vet. Speaking of which how else can you judge your skills? besides playing other ppl other than some local n00bs (trust me I USED to think I was good at the local LAN but then I decided to try my skillz online against other ppl over XBconnect and I was humbled I then spent the next 6 months to pratice and now I can say I hold my own against other Halo players that play all the time). By the way if I cant impress ppl over the internet then why can ppl who have never played me judge me over the internet?

  • 06.08.2004 9:29 PM PDT

*I sense a disturbance in the forum*
Jaws on Zanzibar?
Sniper 's Ed 101
my myspace
teh explosion
purchase a leaf blower at any Sears store
After kim saying pc gamers are more mature:
Posted by:ImSpartacus
we r?

Yeah, it will be useless. I can't even get a good melee when I go toe to toe with my friend, when I have a shotgun, and he has a pistol. It sucks. It will be so much harder when you try to get an instant kill with the plasma sword. from the front. The back is easy, unless you got radar on. I don't radar on in multiplayer.

  • 06.08.2004 9:37 PM PDT
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Posted by: fastmatt
Yeah, it will be useless. I can't even get a good melee when I go toe to toe with my friend, when I have a shotgun, and he has a pistol. It sucks. It will be so much harder when you try to get an instant kill with the plasma sword. from the front. The back is easy, unless you got radar on. I don't radar on in multiplayer.


I cant agree more the pistol was had no disadvantage to it's use which is why im glad there changing it hopefully for the better. And if any of you have watched the Halo National Championship Finl on TV or on Xbox.com the pistol was used almost exclusively even on battle creek at small map where weapons like the plasma rifle and AR which scipio said would own a pistol were completly ignored because it was such a disadvantage to NOT use the pistol even the announcers said (G4 announcers for god sake!) that the pistol was the only gun in use and was really powerful compared to everything else

  • 06.08.2004 9:48 PM PDT
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they shold intro duce it whith better ballence though. like whith no explosive rounds this time. way to over powering

  • 06.08.2004 9:52 PM PDT
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You can't just say the pistol is overpowered because it's the only weapon ideal for a certain situation. For that matter, the shotgun is WAY too powerful at close range. One hit, one kill? Pushaw. . . not like it's worthless past 20 meters or anything. Heck, the sniper rifle is the only infantry weapon that can shoot past 350meters. That's WAY unbalanced. How in the name of science could you go toe to toe with a sniper at 400M with a shotgun?! IT'S NOT FAIR! All weapons should be generic, do the same damage, have the same accuracy at the same range so it's fair.

Certain weapons dominate certain ranges of combat (except the AR and needler), and that's just the way it is. They don't all perform fantastic at all ranges, and that is the reasonthey're balanced. The pistol is great at mid range, but it's at a disadvantage at -10 meters.

If overheating is your problem with the plasma rifle. . . you need to rethink how you're using it. I agree needles are pretty terrible, but they can be effective in larger games. A whole clip from the AR? Ok, bud, it only takes 20 rounds to the chest to kill somebody. At most, you should only use 40 rounds or else you are 1) a lousy shot 2) out of range or 3) both.

As for the last paragraph, again, stop trying to impress me. I really don't care. I'm not judging your skill, I'm saying I don't give a bologna how good you are or say you are.

  • 06.08.2004 10:00 PM PDT
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yeah..it is overpowered.... if you, went up against You (at close range 10 meters or less), one with a pistol and one with a Plasma Rifle, the pistol would surely win! (it would with me) i can say the same thing with any other weapon in the same situation (except for a shotgun, and rocket launcher)

  • 06.08.2004 10:12 PM PDT
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I wasn't talking about you judging me someone else did it not you just forget that part alright. I guess I am a little confident about my skills and my desire to be the best (im not there and I doubt I ever will be but I try). Now that thats settled let's discuss weapons. how can you say that the AR and Plasma Rifle are better up close when it takes them 20 or 30 shots to kill someone when the pistol only needs 3 shots? It's not like it has a slow RoF. I already said the Shotgun is better as you expect it to be and the sniper to hit targets at 250 meters but the pistol isn't completly overpowered just to useful and was too good at ROF, Accuracy, Power and Range the combination of these made it too good it excelled in two areas both close and mid ranged and could even annoy snipers at all but the most extreme of Range (only found on two maps). I almost always carried a Sniper/Shotgun with a Pistol and I suceeded greatly. Halo is the only game to only allow you to carry two guns thus forcing you to make decisions in which gun you wanted forcing a much more tactical approach whats the point if theres one gun the will dominate at one situation (mid range) and would still be useful at any other situations?

[Edited on 6/8/2004 10:25:02 PM]

  • 06.08.2004 10:24 PM PDT
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Alright, I don't think the AR can really do anything against a pistol, but I'll tell you a secret about the plasmarifle. Because it freezes the target, you can shower somebody in plasma while running around them and melee them when their sheilds break. If you're at close range, they'll be dead before the third shot and have a heck of a time trying to aim when their reticle keeps freezing for a half-second.

Play one of your friends who's at least pretty good and engage him at close quarters 10 or less meters. Let him have plasma and you use the pistol. If he lays down the plasma while running to the side, you're going to have a difficult time getting those 3 head shots.

You're more or less right in that the pistol's combination of power/range/accuracy is pretty heavy, but I wouldn't say so much that it's unbalanced. On close-quarters maps (like chillout and longest) I almost always use weapons other than the pistol and normally have more success than I'd have with the pistol. On other maps, the pistol is the best all around, but there are plenty of situations where sniper rifles, rockets and whatnot are more useful.

Meh, sorry if I get offensive about your halo skill. I just need some sleep.

  • 06.08.2004 10:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: Scipio
You can't just say the pistol is overpowered because it's the only weapon ideal for a certain situation. For that matter, the shotgun is WAY too powerful at close range. One hit, one kill? Pushaw. . . not like it's worthless past 20 meters or anything. Heck, the sniper rifle is the only infantry weapon that can shoot past 350meters. That's WAY unbalanced. How in the name of science could you go toe to toe with a sniper at 400M with a shotgun?! IT'S NOT FAIR! All weapons should be generic, do the same damage, have the same accuracy at the same range so it's fair.

Certain weapons dominate certain ranges of combat (except the AR and needler), and that's just the way it is. They don't all perform fantastic at all ranges, and that is the reasonthey're balanced. The pistol is great at mid range, but it's at a disadvantage at -10 meters.


You can when that certain situation makes up 70%+ of your encounters. Say you have a sword that kills people instantly, thats great but if you're in a battle where everyone is stuck in opposing buildings and you can't run to the other one its pretty useless and the projectile weapons uber in comparison. Now say you have a ton of different swords, but one gun. Wouldn't you say the gun is overpowered if your talking gameplay balance?

Lets get a few things straight. I absolutely LOVE how the pistol requires skill to use. If you don't have skill with it, you're going to lose. Awesome, I love that. What is not good however is that its the only weapon you use in midrange situations. There should be more weapons which work well in a mid range situation.

Problem 2 is that there is no way a pistol would be your second most accurate weapon (next to sniper). That's absurd, makes no sense. So UNSC can make this great tiny weapon, but can't make crap in a bigger weapon? The BR having Halo 1 pistol like abilities makes MUCH more sense. UNSC rifles should be better than UNSC pistols.

I'm not saying we should remove midrange weapons, not as all, but I think we should have at least 3 options when it comes to fighting at midrange, each with its own use from the others. The pistol should not be one of these midrange weapons however, just doesn't make any real world sense.

[Edited on 6/8/2004 10:49:29 PM]

  • 06.08.2004 10:46 PM PDT

Twelve Large ²

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

Yeah, I did a study.. With a program my friend had made.. And we came to the conclusion that Halo players were using the Pistol 94.872682648% of the time in all engagements. Which lead us to believe that there was a problem with weapon balance.

Okay, not really. Maybe bungie will have a program for Halo 2 that could determine how often each weapon is used. You know, to make sure no players start to lean too heavily towards one single weapon.. A BORING weapon, at that.



[Edited on 6/8/2004 10:55:07 PM]

  • 06.08.2004 10:54 PM PDT
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You can when that certain situation makes up 70%+ of your encounters. Say you have a sword that kills people instantly, thats great but if you're in a battle where everyone is stuck in opposing buildings and you can't run to the other one its pretty useless and the projectile weapons uber in comparison. Now say you have a ton of different swords, but one gun. Wouldn't you say the gun is overpowered if your talking gameplay balance?

That's my point. The pistol isn't overpowered, it simply has no competition for it's ideal useage. Heck, you could always only play Longest. Then you could start griping about how great the shotgun with camo is. Reasonably nerfing the pistol wouldn't make more weapons seem more appealing. In reality people would still use the pistol most of the time (although not quite as much) and just take more shots. As for your sword vs. pistol example, that's a pretty extreme case. Nothing stops you from using other weapons. Believe it or not, if you really perfect your aim nobody with a pistol will touch you when you get a sniper rifle. Close range or not.

Your first problem I totally agree with. We badly need variety in mid-range. You're second problem however is subjective. 2552 ballistic technology is more or less a mystery, and probably a bit ridiculous. A high-power pistol being accurate at about 100 meters isn't that hard to believe if you're a very good shot and have a ridiculously steady hand (both of which a Spartan would have).

As for your final statement, realworld logic and common sense do not apply in the Bungie realm any more.

  • 06.08.2004 10:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: Scipio
You can when that certain situation makes up 70%+ of your encounters. Say you have a sword that kills people instantly, thats great but if you're in a battle where everyone is stuck in opposing buildings and you can't run to the other one its pretty useless and the projectile weapons uber in comparison. Now say you have a ton of different swords, but one gun. Wouldn't you say the gun is overpowered if your talking gameplay balance?

That's my point. The pistol isn't overpowered, it simply has no competition for it's ideal useage. Heck, you could always only play Longest. Then you could start griping about how great the shotgun with camo is. Reasonably nerfing the pistol wouldn't make more weapons seem more appealing. In reality people would still use the pistol most of the time (although not quite as much) and just take more shots. As for your sword vs. pistol example, that's a pretty extreme case. Nothing stops you from using other weapons. Believe it or not, if you really perfect your aim nobody with a pistol will touch you when you get a sniper rifle. Close range or not.

Your first problem I totally agree with. We badly need variety in mid-range. You're second problem however is subjective. 2552 ballistic technology is more or less a mystery, and probably a bit ridiculous. A high-power pistol being accurate at about 100 meters isn't that hard to believe if you're a very good shot and have a ridiculously steady hand (both of which a Spartan would have).

As for your final statement, realworld logic and common sense do not apply in the Bungie realm any more.


As long as there are weapons to take the pistols place, I could care less if its nerfed, I'll just use the other weapons as I did the pistol in Halo 1 (and be much more glad that there is a variety). As for 2552, I don't care what technology they have the fact that a smaller weapon is more accurate then a bigger weapon doesn't make sesne. I will conceed it is perfectly possible for them to develop a pistol that is as accurate as the pistol in Halo 1. However, it still makes no sense at all that they have no rifles which can come close the the range of a pistol. If they can make a tiny pistol have that kind of range, they should be able to have a weapon with faster firing rate with the same, if not better accuracy in a larger rifle.

As for my sword and pistol example, I completely agree that is an extreme case -- that was the point. Halo is certainly not that bad, however the problems with the pistol in Halo are the same as in my example thus demonstrating that these are in fact gameplay problems. Don't get me wrong, Halo is my favorite game of all time, but that doesn't mean there is no room for improvement.

  • 06.08.2004 11:10 PM PDT
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yeah scipio I agree the Plasma Rifle in good hands is really good and hard to avoid and easy to kill if you aim at the head. And believe it or not the Magnum Pistol can hit targets at ranges of 200 yards! What's the diffrence between the M6D and the Magnum revolver? the revolver has horrible recoil slow rate of fire and no scope if the pistol had either A)no scope B)solwer RoF C)less ammo it would still be a great mid range gun and maybe with the larger maps in halo 2 (so the Snipers could use that precious advantage) and the more close up weapons the pistol could remain the same we just dont know. Your absolutly right the pistol isn't nessecaily a over powered gun more than the other guns are under powered but that still leads to imbalance(atleast the pistol is good in Halo most games the pistol is your last resort). The Pistol described in FS shows me that there not making it less powerful (it actually will be more powerful) just not the combination of ammo Rof and range that quickly turned Halo matches into Pistol battles

  • 06.08.2004 11:19 PM PDT
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here's how I imagine halo 2s weapons to be like

Close Range:
Covenant sword
Shotgun
SMG
Plasma Pistol (almost exclusively a Dual Wield weapon to pair with the SMGs and PRs I imagine)
Needler (actually packs a big punch this time around!)
Plasma Rifle

Mid Range
Magnum Pistol (with more punch but no scope)
Battle Rifle (neither this nor the Carbine has the range accuracy combo that the pistol uses according to the GI article)
Covienant Carbine (Covie version of the BR)

Sniper Weapons
S2
Covie Sniper

Explosive
Rocket Launcher
Brute Nade Launcher
Fuel Rod Cannon

ofcourse their will be more weapons and this is just what I expect as of this moment probably alot diffrent but will see when the game comes out

  • 06.08.2004 11:28 PM PDT
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I remember reading in an OXM or something like it about the H2 online Alpha test. One guy said the BattleRifle was pretty much a pistol with a new skin without quite as much accuracy at range, so I don't think we'll see the pistol exactly as it was in Halo: CE. I also think the Magnum from FS will pretty much fit the description of the real-life magnum, power, reasonable clip size range, reliable accuracy and a fairly slow rate of fire.
Also, there's no denying that more open levels are almost entirely pistol matches, but I blame that less on the pistol's power and more on the lack of other mid-range weapons.

Hopefully Halo2 will finally satisfy people and strike a good balance with weapons.

  • 06.08.2004 11:30 PM PDT
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I couldn't agree more with you but Halo had some issues with weapon balance not just the pistol such as vehicle domination esp in Halo PC with the banshee but it looks like bungie knows what their doing with the new weaopns so every thing will be a tactical desicison thus lots of variety I can see players getting good at all kinds of guns in Halo 2 and not resort to one gun cause it's better. The only reason were discussing this is cause bungie barely had time to put in the MP (I think they had like three months not alot of time) the maps were at fault for being very sterile and open fitting the style of weapon that the pistol possed, the weapons weren't balanced just right and eventually ppl got really good with the pistol. Man all this discussion makes me want to play Halo 2 right Now! Atleast this game has pretty good balance compared to most games like Counter Strike were people jumped around corners scoped in and then fired the one shot kill Sniper Rifle the killed in one shot no matter wheter you hit them in the foot or in the head!

[Edited on 6/8/2004 11:42:09 PM]

  • 06.08.2004 11:40 PM PDT

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