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  • Subject: Another shallow complaint, another...

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Raper127
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Achilles1108
The man has hit the nail on the head. Bungie has to be very careful with every little thing they say or do. I mean look at the custom games search which was briefly stated in an interview way back. Well it did not make the cut and many people freaked out.

The custom games search had nothing to do with accidentally promising anything. Its the same thing that happened with Halo 2, they told us they had something going into the game and failed to mention they had cut it out.

People can deal with lost features, what they can't deal with is when the features promised to them suddenly vanish when the game is put into the console.


I agree. Bungie has made one too many empty promises, which they have a habit of doing, and they have paid for it time and time again. Does Bungie really listen to what its fans want? To a certain extent, yes, but they don't discuss it with their fans, at all really. The only Bungie employee I've ever seen post more than once in a week is Achronos, and it usually has nothing to do with a problem in Halo 3, it's usually some problem with the site or something. Bungie claims to care about its fans, but they are lacking in several areas, such as Community interaction. Bungie is big on secrets, but they need to learn when to keep secrets and when not to. When you have some super-cool feature that everyone's going to love, you keep it secret to pleasantly surprise everyone when the game launches. When something negative happens, such as having to cut a feature, you let everyone know as soon as possible, which is likely more than a couple months before the game releases so less people are complaining before a mass of people join the forums when the game is released. Bungie failed to do this with Halo 2 and Halo 3, and they have rightfully paid for it.


Im glad to see others think this way.

  • 12.10.2007 12:44 AM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member
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So now I'm a beta tester. Let's see where this goes.

How in the heck has this thread been allowed to live this long? With the subject heading and couple of bumps, it was obvious flame bait to begin with.

IF there was any grounds for a discussion it has been covered.

  • 12.10.2007 1:01 AM PDT
Subject: Another update, another...
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Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
I find it strange how so many people here can spout insults at this guy.

I was trying to be diplomatic, but he seems to have an uncontrollable urge to bend everything I say into an insult in his direction. I can't help that!

-TGP-

  • 12.10.2007 1:13 AM PDT
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Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
I find it strange how so many people here can spout insults at this guy. He gave criticism, as a fan, of what he feels is a better way to take the community. I have to say I agree with him, although it might just be too late for b.net to take that route. This guy comes in here and gives his honest opinion, and all you guys have to say is "Well that sucks, deal with it."

Is that the way you want to represent the bungie community? At least take criticism like you care.


Thanks. Apparently, just because I have said a few different things, and dared to mention religion, my 'argument' which has to be only ONE thing, according to some arbitrary unspoken rule, is invalid, therefore anything I say is suspect and/or incorrect.

Last time I checked, a forum was a meeting place for discussion. Not a scavenger hunt for finding reasons to tell people to leave. Most of the people complaining about what I have said are just taking one line out of context. If you want to criticise me, read what I have said. THOROUGHLY. If you don't understand why I said something, don't criticise because you don't understand, ask me what I mean.

  • 12.10.2007 4:26 AM PDT
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Posted by: Great_Pretender
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
I find it strange how so many people here can spout insults at this guy.

I was trying to be diplomatic, but he seems to have an uncontrollable urge to bend everything I say into an insult in his direction. I can't help that!

-TGP-


This coming from the person who seemed to take such offense at my complaint on moderator overzealousness?

On a seperate note, I am confused by the seemingly overwhelming blame that is put on people who create 'flamebait' when its the FLAMERS who are the problem

  • 12.10.2007 4:34 AM PDT
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Posted by: cApAc_aMaRu
Posted by: Great_Pretender
I was trying to be diplomatic, but he seems to have an uncontrollable urge to bend everything I say into an insult in his direction. I can't help that!

This coming from the person who seemed to take such offense at my complaint on moderator overzealousness?

I have good reason to take offense, because hey, I'm a moderator.

-TGP-

  • 12.10.2007 4:59 AM PDT
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Your whiny and horribly subjective sense of self-entitlement is grating.

  • 12.10.2007 5:00 AM PDT
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I admit, the Bioware forums are nice, I've been visiting them for years now. But those forums have idiots as well. And heck there's been plenty of times when Bioware made "false promises". In fact those forums are pretty much as a small scale version of what we have here. There quite a few developer posts, but not per se more than you can find here. Admitted, more developers post. But if that website had as much activity, you would barely notice them.

  • 12.10.2007 11:05 AM PDT
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Do you have what it takes to become a ninja? Join Ninja Academy
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KOTOR

Posted by: Great_Pretender
Damn, I wrote a nice big response and hit back. Try again:

I'm sure the Bioware forums have their share of idiots. We just happen to have a bigger share.

I've played matches with Bungie employees before, and I am quite sure that from the discussions I've heard, they are listening to critisism. The fact that these forums move very fast means that replies Bungie employees make are buried pretty quickly.

And on the topic of our moderation, we need to be a lot tougher because we have a whole lot more members (and a vast majority of them are immature). The situation is analygous to a riot, in comparison to the rather loud but tame party over at Bioware. Of course we have to be a little more liberal in our moderation. If that gives the impression that we're "swelling our chests from illusion of control", then so be it. I won't lose sleep over it.

-TGP-


I agree with TGP. The Bungie forums are extremely active and there is a lot of flaming and spam. I have seen Bungie.net on days when there weren't many moderators around and it can go downhill fast without them.

  • 12.10.2007 11:30 AM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

I understand what the OP is saying, but I also see a lack of foresight in his 'complaints'.

For starters, this community dwarfs most others. That right there is a big enough reason not to further the discussion. Bungie has very limited control as to who visits this site. As you've noticed, it attracts a large number of people lacking in education and/or social skills. As a developer, would you want to interact with people who have no idea what you are talking about, or in a place where your comments, no matter how good, would be buried on page 23 in less than a day? How would you make the community more mature? Ban the immature posters? Wouldnt that make the moderators even more "oversealous"?

You have complained that all we are giving you is, "Thats the way it is" answers. There are no other answers. Your initial post was nothing more than an observation. Youre not discussing anything, your stating the painfully obvious. Any discussion that has taken place, through your posts or others, does nothing more than point out glaring contradictions in your original post.

Before we take this 'discussion' any further, please answer one question for us.

What is your point?

  • 12.10.2007 11:57 AM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Great_Pretender
Posted by: cApAc_aMaRu
Posted by: Great_Pretender
I was trying to be diplomatic, but he seems to have an uncontrollable urge to bend everything I say into an insult in his direction. I can't help that!

This coming from the person who seemed to take such offense at my complaint on moderator overzealousness?

I have good reason to take offense, because hey, I'm a moderator.

-TGP-

While your comment was a bit of a "blow it out your a**" comment, it really wasn't that big a deal. Its the others who come in here and post absolutely nothing constructive Iw as reffering to. Even some who post paragraphs of replies are just sucking up.

I can say some of the moderators here are lax in the way they perform. Not that they do it intentionally, because I respect the things you go through as a fellow moderator of a few other forums, but that they don't keep their actions consistent. One day your allowed to do minor joking around and some pretty serious discussion, the next day you mention the slightest hint of a touchy topic and your blacklisted.

  • 12.10.2007 12:21 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

What update are you referring to? Further, we post in the forums quite frequently, both to criticism and praise.

Although that packed stadium mentality can happen here, that's usually just because there are more people here.

Posted by: cApAc_aMaRu
Self-congratulatory back-slapping session, with a carrot dangling off the end of a stick to keep the donkey moving.

I recently bought, and played through Mass Effect, and you wouldn't believe the breath of fresh air it is to join a forum where you don't get blacklisted for debating touchy subjects, and actual GAME DEVELOPERS answer once in a while to both criticism, and praise. I feel like Bioware actually cares about their players. When I log on to the Bungie forums, I feel like I'm in a packed stadium of people yelling incoherently at each other with random people kicked out seemingly at random by others whose chests swell from the illusion of control over their fellow man that they have been granted.

  • 12.10.2007 1:33 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Ah, but the problem, you see, is that often we can't really report on things because we don't know the answer, or have no timeline, etc. But when there is information to report, it is there. For example, we couldn't really talk about Team Hardcore, because we didn't really know how that was going to come together. Once it did, it got in the weekly update. The update isn't selling anything. It is a continuous conversation with the fans. Expecting the world each week is nothing something that will bring you satisfaction.

As for moderators, if you ever think something bad happened, report it to a master moderator or myself. Usually an explanation is easy to come by, if you only make the effort.

Posted by: cApAc_aMaRu
There is only one thing I really want changed, when it comes down to it.

I want Bungie to use their weekly updates to tell us what they are doing about problems, instead of trying to sell new product. As far as moderators go, I have had at least one thread closed for no good reason by a moderator who had a good laugh with his final post, in the arrogant comfort of knowing I was left unable to publicly reply. The fact is I have virtually given up on this forum, because I no longer find it to be relevant.

  • 12.10.2007 1:37 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
No.

Posted by: Achronos
Ah, but the problem, you see, is that often we can't really report on things because we don't know the answer, or have no timeline, etc. But when there is information to report, it is there. For example, we couldn't really talk about Team Hardcore, because we didn't really know how that was going to come together. Once it did, it got in the weekly update. The update isn't selling anything. It is a continuous conversation with the fans. Expecting the world each week is nothing something that will bring you satisfaction.

As for moderators, if you ever think something bad happened, report it to a master moderator or myself. Usually an explanation is easy to come by, if you only make the effort.

Posted by: cApAc_aMaRu
There is only one thing I really want changed, when it comes down to it.


I want Bungie to use their weekly updates to tell us what they are doing about problems, instead of trying to sell new product. As far as moderators go, I have had at least one thread closed for no good reason by a moderator who had a good laugh with his final post, in the arrogant comfort of knowing I was left unable to publicly reply. The fact is I have virtually given up on this forum, because I no longer find it to be relevant.


By definiton of Achronos posting this thread becomes moot.

  • 12.10.2007 1:47 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

No, not really. I didn't really address all of the OPs complaints, and besides, it is good to have a meta-discussion every once in a while.

Let's see...

1. Experience has taught me that religion and politics on the Internet never ends well. Given that people here often can't talk about the weather in a civil manner, religion and politics are banned topics, one of the very few. We let a whole lot slide here, and that wasn't easy to justify especially when we were part of Microsoft.

2. Moderator consistency is not really their fault - that's mostly mine and the tools I give them. Hopefully the spam reporting system helps that out.

3. Mass Effect is a great game, but comparing Bioware's forums to Bungie.net is not really fair, given the size difference and the type of game.

Was there anything else? I think that was it.

Posted by: conko bob 43
By definiton of Achronos posting this thread becomes moot.

  • 12.10.2007 1:55 PM PDT
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GT: AccidentsProne

"A wise man once told me don't argue with fools, cause people from a distance can't tell who is who"

Is the spam reporting system somehow weighted? If a legendary member marks a thread as spam is it given more merit than if a member just joined and reports it? I'm sure that it's somehow weighted so that if multiple people mark a thread as spam it's given more attention than if one person reports it.

Edit: Nevermind, he already answered this in another post.

[Edited on 12.10.2007 2:07 PM PST]

  • 12.10.2007 2:02 PM PDT
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I've played a couple of Bungie employees... once or twice, on customs on Sandtrap on XBL.

Their normal people. Albeit, Bungie employees rarely swear. Which is odd on XBL. But that probably has something to to do with upholding company integrity.

  • 12.10.2007 4:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: just another fan
I admit, the Bioware forums are nice, I've been visiting them for years now. But those forums have idiots as well. And heck there's been plenty of times when Bioware made "false promises". In fact those forums are pretty much as a small scale version of what we have here. There quite a few developer posts, but not per se more than you can find here. Admitted, more developers post. But if that website had as much activity, you would barely notice them.


Well, there are the handy dev post tags. All though I'm sure there are people following this thread who want to jump in now and say 'no, we can't have that on the Halo forum, because they would just get massively spammed, and never post again'

  • 12.10.2007 5:28 PM PDT
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Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: cApAc_aMaRu
On a seperate note, I am confused by the seemingly overwhelming blame that is put on people who create 'flamebait' when its the FLAMERS who are the problem

Interesting point.

So, someone who makes knowingly provocative and incendiary statements with the sole intent to generate loud and rude replies is not responsible for the situation that they created?

While I would agree that we are ALL responsible for our statements and actions (after all, someone can't "make you" reply in a way that violates the rules). I cannot see how the person who deliberately incited and attempted to manipulate the situation into that outcome is not equally responsible for their actions (which had a larger and more far reaching goal of disruption).

From my perspective, those who respond to trolls have the problem of not being able to contain their passions. While this is not good, they can learn from their mistakes if a correction is given and an opportunity for redemption is allowed.

The trolls however have a larger problem, they delight and provoke others to demonstrate their lack of control, for no purpose other than to create the scene and generate some measure of satisfaction from the chaos they encouraged. Such willful and deliberate activities are not likely (IMO) to be reversed or corrected by any correction and second chance.


haha, I was in no way condoning those who deliberately stir up thew rabble, I was referring to people who just try to start a discussion. The fact that provoking thought tends to provoke idiocy simultaneously makes things difficult, and leads to mediocrity.

  • 12.10.2007 5:34 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
Ah, but the problem, you see, is that often we can't really report on things because we don't know the answer, or have no timeline, etc. But when there is information to report, it is there. For example, we couldn't really talk about Team Hardcore, because we didn't really know how that was going to come together. Once it did, it got in the weekly update. The update isn't selling anything. It is a continuous conversation with the fans. Expecting the world each week is nothing something that will bring you satisfaction.

As for moderators, if you ever think something bad happened, report it to a master moderator or myself. Usually an explanation is easy to come by, if you only make the effort.

Posted by: cApAc_aMaRu
There is only one thing I really want changed, when it comes down to it.

I want Bungie to use their weekly updates to tell us what they are doing about problems, instead of trying to sell new product. As far as moderators go, I have had at least one thread closed for no good reason by a moderator who had a good laugh with his final post, in the arrogant comfort of knowing I was left unable to publicly reply. The fact is I have virtually given up on this forum, because I no longer find it to be relevant.


Confirmation of problem recognition isn't too much to ask. If Bunige had said something about looking into sniper hits not registering, instead of saying its harder, suck it up, do you not think that would have reduced flaming on the boards?

I have attempted to report multiple problems with moderators, and been stonewalled or ignored. I found it quite difficult to locate appropriate problem reporting solutions.

  • 12.10.2007 5:42 PM PDT
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Is this cavalcade of moderators a common occurence on the community forum? I've never seen so many of you in one place before :P

  • 12.10.2007 5:43 PM PDT