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This topic has moved here: Subject: Pistol vs. BR
  • Subject: Pistol vs. BR
Subject: Pistol vs. BR
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Does anyone else ever get annoyed when people in H2/3 complain about the BR for being too much like the pistol? I have two annoyances with that statement, one obvious and the other not so obvious.

First, what's wrong with the pistol? It's a weapon that emphasizes aiming skill, is hard to use and has a deep learning curve, and also is extremely versatile so that you never feel helpless in any situation simply because of your weapon selection - thus ensuring that power weapons (shotgun/sniper/rocket) cannot dominate the game. Getting a TSK with the pistol is far more satisfying than dual-wielding and mowing an opponent down because it is so much harder to do.

Second, the BR is NOT an effective replacement for the pistol, for one big reason: the three-shot burst. This burst has two big effects:

a) It makes the weapon too easy to use at medium/close distance, and players with very disproportionate aiming skills will still finish only one or two bursts from each other (leaving the victor open to very easy cleanup by the loser's teammates). The BR at medium range is simply too easy to use and even in the reduced auto-aim environment of H3, the person who spots the opponent first and therefore starts shooting first will win 90% of the time. The pistol, on the other hand, featured single shots AND a limited rate of fire (whereas the Carbine, for instance, has single shots but an effectively unlimited rate of fire), therefore accuracy was at a premium because landing shots was hardly assured. If you were having an off-night using the pistol, you could miss almost all of your shots while the opponent could have a hot shooting night and TSK you. The differential between a good shooter and even a mediocre shooter was enormously apparent - one good player could take down two so-so players consecutively. Therefore, the BR tends to make all players about the same (narrowing the possible skill range) whereas the pistol tends to strongly differentiate players (widening the skill range and increasing the learning curve).

b) The burst creates a spread between the bullets that greatly nerfs the gun's ability to function well at long range. It is impossible to four-burst an opponent at long range simply due to the physical shooting characteristics of the BR. This severely limits the versatility of the BR, as it is really only useful for long-range team shooting or knocking a sniper out of zoom (forget about actually killing him).

The net effect is to make the BR less satisfying to use (because you can't really improve that much, as it is too easy to use at its effective range) and less versatile since it is gimped at long range (and has less killing potential at short range because there's no equivalent for the TSK - an extremely quick kill that is balanced by being so hard to pull off against close-range strafing opponents).

[Edited on 12.19.2007 10:43 PM PST]

  • 12.19.2007 10:43 PM PDT
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What is so skillful about the pistol. All you have to do is aim for the head and hold trigger. The BR is more skillful because its requires steady aiming and its burst fire. Yes the pistol is overall better but the battle rifle is a sick weapon when used correctly.

  • 12.20.2007 6:22 AM PDT
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ive never heard anyone say the br is like the pistol. i think they're completely differnet. halo 1 pistol could kill someone in a scorpion, while a br is just like the worst weapon in the world except for halo 2's magnum

  • 12.20.2007 7:13 AM PDT

Posted by: Bud Adrock
What is so skillful about the pistol. All you have to do is aim for the head and hold trigger. The BR is more skillful because its requires steady aiming and its burst fire. Yes the pistol is overall better but the battle rifle is a sick weapon when used correctly.


You switched those around, I think.. I hope...

  • 12.20.2007 8:38 AM PDT
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Posted by: CHIIVK
Does anyone else ever get annoyed when people in H2/3 complain about the BR for being too much like the pistol? I have two annoyances with that statement, one obvious and the other not so obvious.

First, what's wrong with the pistol? It's a weapon that emphasizes aiming skill, is hard to use and has a deep learning curve, and also is extremely versatile so that you never feel helpless in any situation simply because of your weapon selection - thus ensuring that power weapons (shotgun/sniper/rocket) cannot dominate the game. Getting a TSK with the pistol is far more satisfying than dual-wielding and mowing an opponent down because it is so much harder to do.

Second, the BR is NOT an effective replacement for the pistol, for one big reason: the three-shot burst. This burst has two big effects:

a) It makes the weapon too easy to use at medium/close distance, and players with very disproportionate aiming skills will still finish only one or two bursts from each other (leaving the victor open to very easy cleanup by the loser's teammates). The BR at medium range is simply too easy to use and even in the reduced auto-aim environment of H3, the person who spots the opponent first and therefore starts shooting first will win 90% of the time. The pistol, on the other hand, featured single shots AND a limited rate of fire (whereas the Carbine, for instance, has single shots but an effectively unlimited rate of fire), therefore accuracy was at a premium because landing shots was hardly assured. If you were having an off-night using the pistol, you could miss almost all of your shots while the opponent could have a hot shooting night and TSK you. The differential between a good shooter and even a mediocre shooter was enormously apparent - one good player could take down two so-so players consecutively. Therefore, the BR tends to make all players about the same (narrowing the possible skill range) whereas the pistol tends to strongly differentiate players (widening the skill range and increasing the learning curve).

b) The burst creates a spread between the bullets that greatly nerfs the gun's ability to function well at long range. It is impossible to four-burst an opponent at long range simply due to the physical shooting characteristics of the BR. This severely limits the versatility of the BR, as it is really only useful for long-range team shooting or knocking a sniper out of zoom (forget about actually killing him).

The net effect is to make the BR less satisfying to use (because you can't really improve that much, as it is too easy to use at its effective range) and less versatile since it is gimped at long range (and has less killing potential at short range because there's no equivalent for the TSK - an extremely quick kill that is balanced by being so hard to pull off against close-range strafing opponents).


I don't disagree that the pistol takes more skill to use, though only because of the lack of aim assist.

"This severely limits the versatility of the BR, as it is really only useful for long-range team shooting or knocking a sniper out of zoom (forget about actually killing him)."

I disagree with this, however. I'm sorry, but I'm a horrible Halo 2 player, and even I have little to no trouble killing a sniper with a Battle Rifle.

And..."The net effect is to make the BR less satisfying to use (because you can't really improve that much, as it is too easy to use at its effective range) and less versatile since it is gimped at long range (and has less killing potential at short range because there's no equivalent for the TSK - an extremely quick kill that is balanced by being so hard to pull off against close-range strafing opponents)."

I disagree with that. If it's so easy to use at close range then it should have no problems killing someone in four shots at close range, right? Wouldn't that be the equivalent of a TSK, regardless of actual skill involved?

[Edited on 12.22.2007 2:24 AM PST]

  • 12.22.2007 2:23 AM PDT
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Posted by: Bud Adrock
What is so skillful about the pistol. All you have to do is aim for the head and hold trigger.

Holding down the trigger reduced the accuracy of the weapon. Everyone I know pumps the trigger exactly like the BR.

i think they're completely differnet. halo 1 pistol could kill someone in a scorpion, while a br is just like the worst weapon in the world except for halo 2's magnum
Don't compare the weapons on the basis that one weapon could kill a vehicle while the other cannot. Vehicles from Halo 1 are fundamentally different from those in Halo 2. The scorpion in Halo 2 was made to be invulnerable to bullets on the rear, the treads and the main cannon. Shooting a BR there will not inflict any damage to the driver. In Halo 1 the scorpion is 100% vulnerable when bullets are fired anywhere on the vehicle plus it had an open hatch.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/halo-rifle-pistol.htm
"...in Halo 1 we had the assault rifle which was just a bullet hose and the pistol which was very accurate and did lots of damage in head shots. Around the office everybody uses the pistol because, especially in single player, it's really easy to kill the little grunt guys, and it's much more accurate in multiplayer.

"Then we, you know, unleashed [Halo:CE] on the world and everybody wanted to use the assault rifle because everybody wanted to use the big, powerful looking, you know, powerful sounding gun. So while we intended most people to use the pistol a lot and use the assault rifle sometimes, it ended up people played all the way through with the assault rifle.

"When we looked at what we wanted to do with the weapons in Halo 2, the first thing that we wanted to do was we wanted to make it so that the pistol was a lot more appealing to people. So we made it (the pistol) into the powerful looking battle rifle. Then we wanted to make the assault rifle more into a support weapon that people would use sometimes in the right situations when they need a bullet hose. We made that (the assault rifle) into the SMG. So really, the Halo 1 assault rifle and the Halo 1 pistol, we just used the exact same tags and data. We just changed the models and the sound, so people would want to use the one that we wanted them to use more... we literally just changed the models on the old tags."

-Bungie Studios --- Lead Game Designer Jaime Griesemer.

Besides their effect on vehicles the BR and pistol are remarkably similar to each other. If the BR seems to be less skillful and less versatile than the pistol for you then consider that the weapon was designed for online play using peer to peer home internet connections that are plagued with high latency compared to a LAN. On top of that I think the burst fire was added to make the weapon more realistic damage/bullet wise. Four bullets from a BR becoming a killing shot again seemed a little too close to the pistol's TSK so I suppose it was changed to burst fire to disguise it from pistol haters. 12 bullets in four 3 round bursts seemed reasonable but over time I guess people started to notice how poor the weapon was at long range because of the burst fire.

  • 12.22.2007 3:36 AM PDT

Live for nothing die for something.

I like the pistol in Halo 1, and i was pretty good with it. It made some nice balanced matches when everyone had a pistol. But the pistol is not welcome in Halo 2 or Halo 3 because it would be completly unbalanced with all the other weapons, the BR is a decent replacent.

  • 12.22.2007 9:57 AM PDT

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Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

Pistol was the little gun that could. I loved the crazy melee and flip animation. I would say that the Carbine is more similar to the H1 Pistol than the BR though.

  • 12.23.2007 9:49 AM PDT
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Posted by: flamedude
Pistol was the little gun that could. I loved the crazy melee and flip animation. I would say that the Carbine is more similar to the H1 Pistol than the BR though.


I would have to agree that that is a better comparison.

  • 12.23.2007 12:54 PM PDT