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Subject: Questions About Bans And Alternate Bnet Accounts

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

I have recently noticed a phenomenon in the threads and i would love to learn what the forum mods do in these situations.

It seems that many people who post in the forums regularly (about a dozen posts per day) are doing so on brand new accounts with no gamertags linked. these fresh accounts have new names, but they are shockingly similar in content and form as older accounts. and, surprisingly, the new accounts begin on the same day as bannings of older accounts.

it looks like a bent account is banned and the user simply starts an alt account. and, more often than not in the cases that i looked at, this new account will get banned, and then a brand new alt account is started, and on and on.

i will not name any names, but i looked at some recent posters who have posting habits that are just like those of bnet names that are no longer active in the forums. in some cases, these people were easy to find since they follow each other around and post the same sorts of negative comments and personal attacks in the same threads. and, when one account gets banned, the new alt account jumps in and continues discussions within one day of the banning.

here are my questions for the bnet mods:
what are the policies concerning banned bnet users and alternate accounts?
do bnet mods (either those who work for bungie or those who do not) have the ability to check ip addresses to see if an new account may have been created by a banned user?
if a new account seems to have been created by a banned user, will the new account be closed?

i think that the bungie mods can check ip addresses. i remember achronos making a post pointing out that a particular new bnet account has the same ip address as another banned bnet account, but i do not remember what happened next.

in any case, i think that bans from the threads for breaking forum rules are a fair and appropriate measure to keep the forums clean and civil. but, if users can simply start alt accounts every time that one gets banned, then they can continue to fill the forums with inappropriate posts and bring down the quality of threads in general. in one case i suspect that one user has had at least 4 accounts in the last few months. the bnet accounts have names that are so similar that anyone would recognize their resemblance, they end and start on corresponding dates, they are never active at the same times, and their activity is linked to bannings of earlier accounts.

if bungie wants bans to be an effective way to keep the forums on the level, then it seems that it would be wise for them to ban ip addresses or users permanently, not just close down a particular bnet account. i do not know if this is possible or complicated, but i would love to hear any thoughts on this issue.

EDIT: i just tracked down the post by achronos that i mentioned. apparently, he DOES have the ability to check ip addresses, and he seems to have permanently banned the new alt account that shared an ip address with another account with ban history.

[Edited on 12.26.2007 8:34 AM PST]

  • 12.26.2007 8:00 AM PDT
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Since we're on the topic of second accounts, I have a question. I make it a well known fact that this isn't my main account, and I use it because of a very long story that ends up with this one being the only account being able to access the Heroic Map Pack. Am I in the wrong for using this account? I don't think I am, but just making sure.

  • 12.26.2007 8:27 AM PDT

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

Posted by: Recon Number 54
IP bans are just as easily bypassed as WLID bans. Unfortunately.

I see (and agree) that this is a serious issue in general, and especially in Optimatch.

...it has been proposed that the forum be altered slightly. That all members, all accounts, be able to visit the forum and view the threads there. But in order to create or reply to a topic, the member must have a linked and active (and non-banned) XBL Gold account.

I for one, am hugely in favor of this proposal for the Optimatch and the File Forums. In the file forums it would solve a simple problem. People making alt-accounts to bump/promote their own file threads and to harass others.


recon, thanks for responing and for doing so so quickly. i was afraid that i would have to wait for ages to learn anything about this, but you have addressed my concerns within minutes.

yes, i have only seen this in optimatch (that is the main forum in which i participate), but i think that i am seeing it a lot over there. i cannot know for sure since i am ignorant of ip addresses and other information, but the patterns seem clear and disruptive alt accounts seem to be popping up more and more.

i have not considered it fully, but at first blush, the idea that you support seems like a great way to help keep optimatch and file sharing forums running smoothly. in the case of optimatch, the purpose of the thread is to discuss halo mm, so having an active linked gamertag seems like a reasonable and natural requirement. as you stated, everyone could still freely view all of the content of the thread, but only those who follow the rules and have linked accounts (which, to some degree, shows that they are players of h3 mm so their thoughts are surely worthy of consideration) can make additions to the forum. plus, having a linked gt, i suspect, would make it much easier for mods to keep banned persons out of the forums.

[Edited on 12.26.2007 8:33 AM PST]

  • 12.26.2007 8:31 AM PDT
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I think It would be a great idea for the optimatch forum. If only users who have gamer tag linked are allowed n their and other people out (you know what kind of people i mean by!). But if you have your gamer tag linked to a different account that you don't use, then that would be cool if it could ask you your gamer tag info + password in order to proceed to the optimatch forum. kind of like an Anti Troll system.

  • 12.26.2007 8:33 AM PDT
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Posted by: EpiDemic 1
I think It would be a great idea for the optimatch forum. If only users who have gamer tag linked are allowed n their and other people out (you know what kind of people i mean by!). But if you have your gamer tag linked to a different account that you don't use, then that would be cool if it could ask you your gamer tag info + password in order to proceed to the optimatch forum. kind of like an Anti Troll system.


But that would be hard to set up right? If it could happen eventually the optimatch forum will be the ultimatum of halo-related discussion.

  • 12.26.2007 8:39 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Like Recon, I have long been in favor of requiring a linked gamertag to access the Optimatch Forum. I remember a thread about this a few months ago in which Achronos stated that there is a likelihood that the Optimatch Forum (at the least) will someday require a linked Gold XBL account in order to post (link to his post).

Alternate accounts have long been a huge problem here, and are, I suspect, a major (if not THE major) reason that there are so many "trust" problems. In most cases, alternate accounts are benign (for example, a user gets a new gamertag -- common in the days before you could unlink your gamertag), but in many cases they are indeed created to bypass a ban. Some users are not ashamed of using alternate accounts -- to be funny, some will create accounts with obvious names based on current events (such as the account "Mythic Member"). Others who are attempting to bypass a ban frequently use similar posting styles and sometimes even similar names to the banned account (example). But a clever user who does not want to be discovered can create completely alternate identities -- one helpful and contributive, and the other destructive or trolling. Indeed, for a large portion of the users here, I'm never quite sure who I'm talking to or hearing from. Sadly, I do not think that there is a potential solution on the horizon to solve the problem of alternate accounts.

One potential solution that I have seen effectively used on other forums is to require a non-free email account. In other words, you must log in from a school or work email address. I do not think that this is a viable solution at the moment for BNet, mostly because of XBox Live and the fact that a large portion of the BNet community does not have access to a non-free email address.

But perhaps there is some other way of confirming that a person is who they say they are -- some kind of metric that is individual to the person. I'm not about to start advocating that a Social Security Number or something be required for access, but maybe somebody else can think of something. At the moment, I cannot.

At a minimum, members should be encouraged to have only one account through benefits received from having long-standing active accounts. The member titles are a good start -- hopefully, someday, those titles come with other small benefits that encourage the maintenance of only one account and discourage rulebreaking. Also, the linked gamertag option is a good one for forums whose purpose is to discuss events that occur on XBox Live (matchmaking and file sharing).

For other forums, I think that, for now, we have to rely on alert members and moderators (I have alerted moderators of alternate accounts many times). It is fortunate that we have both here. Although absolute proof is rarely available, intimations and similarities are sometimes good enough.

Another boon of good fortune is that an alternate account can only do so much damage -- if they cross the line, then they are banned, and little trace of their existence remains. The sad thing is that the ability to create an alternate account negates the punishment and takes away the incentive to follow the rules. Hopefully, at least to some extent, this problem can be addressed someday.

[Edited on 12.26.2007 9:13 AM PST]

  • 12.26.2007 9:05 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Recon Number 54
Just like one does not show up in court wearing shorts, listening to an iPod and carrying a six-pack of brewskies.... the OptiMatch forum should not be a place where people demonstrate their XBL trashtalking abilities.
Speak for yourself, goody-two-shoes.

  • 12.26.2007 9:10 AM PDT

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

Posted by: x Foman123 x
For other forums, I think that, for now, we have to rely on alert members and moderators (I have alerted moderators of alternate accounts many times). It is fortunate that we have both here. Although absolute proof is rarely available, intimations and similarities are sometimes good enough.

Another boon of good fortune is that an alternate account can only do so much damage -- if they cross the line, then they are banned, and little trace of their existence remains. The sad thing is that the ability to create an alternate account negates the punishment and takes away the incentive to follow the rules. Hopefully, at least to some extent, this problem can be addressed someday.


i have not considered alerting mods of my suspicions concerning possible alt accounts because i have nearly no evidence to support my belief. i have used the 'report spam' feature for clear forum rules violations, and, more often than not, these forum rules breakers are the new alt accounts (no matter how many times they have been banned, they seem to be unable to stop flaming posters with personal attacks and foul language). i do not know the specifics of the 'report spam' feature. but my fear is that the mods will be inundated with bogus complaints, making it take longer for them to investigate legitimate rules violations.

as for alt accounts doing little damage, i agree, but they are a bit of a nuisance. in optimatch in particular, these alt accounts seem to post dozens of times a day, they post in packs (they all post in the same threads and always agree with one another), they appear to love to break forum rules (they even frequently make personal attacks against the same users), and they pretty much make the same complaints on countless forums with many different bnet accounts. sadly, such a small group of rules breakers manage to change the dynamic of the optimatch forums. since they work as a team (either intentionally or not), they are able to keep the same topics and threads active by responding to one another in a timely fashion. so, these alt accounts dominate the threads that appear on the front page of optimatch and they can even ensure that their own threads remain visible.

i do not see alt bnet accounts as major problem, but in the case of rules breakers using them to break the rules without interruption, having a way to enforce banned posters from posting would benefit us all.

  • 12.26.2007 9:19 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: x Foman123 x
Posted by: Recon Number 54
Just like one does not show up in court wearing shorts, listening to an iPod and carrying a six-pack of brewskies.... the OptiMatch forum should not be a place where people demonstrate their XBL trashtalking abilities.
Speak for yourself, goody-two-shoes.

I've seen some folks on the bench who would get a special gleam in their eye if someone broke their personal rules of decorum.

Maybe not this bad, but I have learned to never, ever, EVER tempt fate when a human being has nearly unlimited arbitrary power at their disposal.

I also don't poke dogs with sticks either.

Haha, I remember that story. Hilarious, and quite reminiscent of some of the local judges around here as well.

I have heard stories of judges being so formal that they will sometimes make comments about inappropriateness when women wear pantsuits to court rather than skirtsuits. Unsurprisingly, this happened in a federal appeals court in southern Virginia, where decorum and tradition are especially regarded.

At any rate, sorry to go a little off-topic, but you do have a good point about instigating those with unlimited arbitrary power. It applies here as well, as many of us have discovered.

  • 12.26.2007 9:30 AM PDT
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Posted by: sesquipadelian
in optimatch in particular, these alt accounts seem to post dozens of times a day, they post in packs (they all post in the same threads and always agree with one another), they appear to love to break forum rules (they even frequently make personal attacks against the same users), and they pretty much make the same complaints on countless forums with many different bnet accounts. sadly, such a small group of rules breakers manage to change the dynamic of the optimatch forums. since they work as a team (either intentionally or not), they are able to keep the same topics and threads active by responding to one another in a timely fashion. so, these alt accounts dominate the threads that appear on the front page of optimatch and they can even ensure that their own threads remain visible.
I've seen this happen before an its not a pretty site to see (in the optimatch forum). Most of the active topics right now are the ones you've talked about, and oddly enough I've seen a few multiple topics over the same thing (mostly over BR topics). Once the gold account verification is added, the optimatch will be more reliable of a place for matchmaking information gathering. Until that happens though, there will be very little useful infromation from the optimatch forums that are not bias because of the masses of alt accounts.

  • 12.26.2007 9:36 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: sesquipadelian
i have not considered alerting mods of my suspicions concerning possible alt accounts because i have nearly no evidence to support my belief. i have used the 'report spam' feature for clear forum rules violations, and, more often than not, these forum rules breakers are the new alt accounts (no matter how many times they have been banned, they seem to be unable to stop flaming posters with personal attacks and foul language). i do not know the specifics of the 'report spam' feature. but my fear is that the mods will be inundated with bogus complaints, making it take longer for them to investigate legitimate rules violations.
Oh don't get me wrong -- I do not contact a moderator every time I have a suspicion. Only when my suspicion crosses over into a strong belief. I would consider it equal to the "clear and convincing evidence" burden of proof standard for some cases in court. In other words, it's not "proof beyond a reasonable doubt," but it's pretty obvious.

Your concern about overloading the mods with every little suspicion is a valid one, and I agree wholeheartedly.

as for alt accounts doing little damage, i agree, but they are a bit of a nuisance. in optimatch in particular, these alt accounts seem to post dozens of times a day, they post in packs (they all post in the same threads and always agree with one another), they appear to love to break forum rules (they even frequently make personal attacks against the same users), and they pretty much make the same complaints on countless forums with many different bnet accounts. sadly, such a small group of rules breakers manage to change the dynamic of the optimatch forums. since they work as a team (either intentionally or not), they are able to keep the same topics and threads active by responding to one another in a timely fashion. so, these alt accounts dominate the threads that appear on the front page of optimatch and they can even ensure that their own threads remain visible.This is a good point -- alternate accounts can indeed affect forum culture negatively, and is an unfortunate and sad effect. Hopefully the alt account problem can someday be addressed.

  • 12.26.2007 9:38 AM PDT
Subject: Questions About Bans And Alternate Bnet Accounts
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Posted by: Primum Agmen
A tosser is the same as a wanker. To toss oneself off is to fondle the trouser weasel.


Achronos

Joe Staten

So, it is not illegal to have more than one Bungie.net ID? Well, unless you use them for bad thing, am I right?

  • 12.26.2007 10:59 AM PDT
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Posted by: Primum Agmen
A tosser is the same as a wanker. To toss oneself off is to fondle the trouser weasel.


Achronos

Joe Staten

I see your point. Thank you Recon.

Posted by: Recon Number 54
It is not illegal, it is simply hoped that someone can get all that they need out of this site with a single identity. There are understandable reasons that an individual may have more than one (multiple gamercards and stat tracking for example). But it is awkward and (in some cases) "ugly" when someone makes posts to the forums from either/both account, especially when they make no effort to attempt any sort of "continuity control". It's even worse and starts to flirt with alt-abuse when they take the very next step and intentionally play with both accounts in order to confuse, disrupt or attempt to circumvent rules.

On any account(s), we are responsible for our actions and statements and following the membership agreement that is made when the account is created.

  • 12.26.2007 11:16 AM PDT

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

Posted by: Recon Number 54
...it is awkward and (in some cases) "ugly" when someone makes posts to the forums from either/both account, especially when they make no effort to attempt any sort of "continuity control". It's even worse and starts to flirt with alt-abuse when they take the very next step and intentionally play with both accounts in order to confuse, disrupt or attempt to circumvent rules.

On any account(s), we are responsible for our actions and statements and following the membership agreement that is made when the account is created.


i have a question about this. there are a few particular accounts that are violating forum rules, and they also appear to be alts. do you mods try to close all such accounts when you ban one? if you suspect that an account is an alt of a banned user, do you (as non-bungie employees) take any steps to stop all activity from the user on all of the accounts?

  • 12.28.2007 2:14 PM PDT

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Posted by: sesquipadelian
Posted by: Recon Number 54
...it is awkward and (in some cases) "ugly" when someone makes posts to the forums from either/both account, especially when they make no effort to attempt any sort of "continuity control". It's even worse and starts to flirt with alt-abuse when they take the very next step and intentionally play with both accounts in order to confuse, disrupt or attempt to circumvent rules.

On any account(s), we are responsible for our actions and statements and following the membership agreement that is made when the account is created.


i have a question about this. there are a few particular accounts that are violating forum rules, and they also appear to be alts. do you mods try to close all such accounts when you ban one? if you suspect that an account is an alt of a banned user, do you (as non-bungie employees) take any steps to stop all activity from the user on all of the accounts?


I'm not sure if this is what you are asking, but I believe when an account is banned, it bans anyone's account that uses the same computer. I recall a member who was upset because his wife's account was banned, and then along with his, even though he did nothing wrong. But, I also remember another member saying there is an easy way to bypass this, but he never actually said what it was. Please forgive me if anything I have said is wrong.

  • 12.28.2007 2:22 PM PDT

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I disagree that alternate accounts are a major problem on these forums.

When a member breaks the rules and receives a punishment (permanent or temporally), sure they can create an alternate to bypass the ban, but they may become lunch for the soul. Yeah, sure they can use different proxies and get away with another account, but will they want to get banned again and redo the same process over again just to get around the ban? Not after a few times in my opinion.

A member is not going to keep on creating new accounts because he’s constantly doing the same thing and ending in the same result. He’ll give up after a few tries, and maybe behave more appropriately with accordance to the forum. Let’s face it; it’s quite rare for a member to repeatedly make accounts to spam. There have been a few in the past, but eventually they become tired with not being able to win against the forum ninjas and move onto something else.

Having accounts with only linked gamertags being able to post may reduce the amount of spam and nonsense posts, but it would do more bad than good. There are lots of members here who don’t have linked tags due to having old accounts linked, or other Xbox Live problems. Others simply don’t want to waste the time to have their gamertag linked because they don’t think it’s important and that’s just fine too.

The last thing I want to see B.net become is where members with certain requirements can post in areas or even read threads in some cases as I’ve seen on other sites. This in turn can actually have people avoid the site. I prefer this site to be open to all members regardless of what is linked and setup on their account because that’s what B.net is all about in my view.

  • 12.28.2007 2:38 PM PDT

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Not that I know much about anything, but would denying someone from creating an account withing a certain time frame be a good idea? Say user "A" creates an account named "A." Within the next 24 - 48 hours he/she can not create another account. I have no suggestions or ideas of how to suggest it could be done, rather it is just a suggestion to a common problem.

  • 12.28.2007 2:57 PM PDT

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