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  • Subject: Elitism...
Subject: Elitism...
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Programatically invading forums.

Wasn't the whole point of hiding Post Counts to avoid a forum member looking "above" another? Instead of that, we now have these new groups/titles/status' that basically show the same thing. Everyone should be equal, and individual only by Username (and perhaps a custom Halo 3 Symbol etc).



EEEDIT:

Posted by: sesquipadelian
it seems that no matter what the folks at bungie do, people will complain. recently that added titles under user names, and some of those titles are harder to get than others, so now the whining and moaning begins.

This is probably why people are responding so much. Perhaps people misunderstood what I mean in my original post. I was confused, as to why Post Counts were hidden, yet Member Titles were added. I remember a post from a very long time ago stating it was to prevent Elitism. THAT is it. I was confused at that. I like Member Titles, I was just confused, and wanted a reason. I guess people played Ninja and attacked me thinking I was criticizing the new system.

Far out.

[Edited on 01.28.2008 8:12 PM PST]

  • 01.27.2008 2:49 AM PDT

еat аll уour рies іn ѕecret сamps
the Shadows are watching.

I don't even pay attention to the new titles.

But the way I see it, the people who are heroic, legendary, etc. have just been here longer and abide by the rules, and would therefore be the ones that you would go to if you needed help with something. Or at least that's the way that I see.

I am probably wrong.

  • 01.27.2008 2:53 AM PDT

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Forum Tutorials --- WATCH THEM AND LEARN

Except the people with those titles generally aren't the type of people to abuse the fact they have it and someone else doesn't. If they do however, the report as spam button is right next to every post they've made.

  • 01.27.2008 2:55 AM PDT
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I am...whimsical today.

Using Post Count as an indicator of superiority would encourage people to post as much as possible, and would cause spam. The ranks are based on length of membership (mostly) and so cannot be artificially enhanced through damaging forum activity.

  • 01.27.2008 2:57 AM PDT
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The End

‘The conscious is cancerous if allowed to linger’

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."

Elitism

I don't see myself as a person whose opinion matters more than anyone else. If I did my title would be gone before I could say "mummy save me from Achronos' big hammer!"

  • 01.27.2008 3:23 AM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: AoDC
Wasn't the whole point of hiding Post Counts to avoid a forum member looking "above" another? Instead of that, we now have these new groups/titles/status' that basically show the same thing. Everyone should be equal, and individual only by Username (and perhaps a custom Halo 3 Symbol etc).

While your goal would certainly result in a nicer environment and a more ideal atmosphere here, it is also, unfortunately, wholly idealistic.

The basic reality here is that "forum elitism" is impossible to avoid. Every time one kind of meaningless statistic is taken away in order to reduce forum elitism, another takes its place. This is blatantly evident in the Halo 3 and Optimatch forums, where such ridiculously meaningless traits as join date, number of games played, rank, favored playlists, and even your player avatar/colors/armor permutation may be cited as a reason that your opinion is somehow less meaningful. How many times have you seen a poster say something like "guys who use the Elite model tend to suck" or "players who use Hayabusa Armor are not very good"? The same is true in reverse. Look at the unearned respect that is nevertheless given to any BNet user with Recon armor, orange text, a special title, or who manages to get a Bungie employee to post in his or her thread, solely for those reasons.

All of this is plainly evident and easy to prove, despite the efforts of the BNet administrators to put everybody on an equal plane. We can run around saying "the only thing that should distinguish you is the content of your posts" all we want -- and it's true. But the basic fact here is that this is a site that caters to fans of online video games. These fans, by nature, enjoy competition, ranks, and individuality. You can't get them to just say, "okay everybody is equal and I will evaluate people solely based on the content of their posts" and have no way of measuring, ranking, or evaluating the quality of those posts. With no way to measure it, many video gamers (especially some Bungie fans, who are used to having every aspect of their games tracked and quantified into statistics that can then be compared to others') are unlikely to pay any attention to the rhetoric that some of the community members here (who are only trying to help) continue to write.

The fact is that every time you eliminate one kind of measure used to elevate or detract from a user's posts, another one will be created. As a result, forum elitism cannot be eliminated here. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, necessarily, because I actually think that it is NOT a bad thing. I'm just saying that it cannot be eliminated and that's the way it is.

Thus, although we now realize that the site's administrators are unable to eliminate the forum elitism that comes inherently with this site based on its membership, I believe that the Web Team now also realizes that they can make small attempts to control it. Since we can all agree that users should distinguish themselves based solely on the content of their posts and contributions to the Community, this means that the site's administrators can create measures that will funnel and direct the forum elitism inherent in this site into something constructive. In other words, if people are going to engage in forum elitism anyway, why not create a "statistic" or "measure" that can indicate the quality of their membership here, which is much more relevant to the validity of an opinion or post, rather than something completely irrelevant?

Now, if you have a rank such as "Heroic" or "Legendary," it means that you are a longtime member of this site who has managed, for the most part, to stay out of trouble. As a caveat: the member titles are not a quantitative measure of the quality of posts or contribution to the Community, but rather a measure of how much the site "trusts" you to be a good member. And while this system is certainly not perfectly tuned and balanced yet, it is definitely a step in the right direction.

The more ways that users can be distinguished based on post quality and community contributions, the better their posts will become. It is not a matter of eliminating forum elitism, but rather guiding and controlling that same elitism into something that will create a better environment for all of us who are big fans of this site and these forums.



[Edited on 01.27.2008 3:33 AM PST]

  • 01.27.2008 3:31 AM PDT
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The End

‘The conscious is cancerous if allowed to linger’

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Posted by: AoDC
Wasn't the whole point of hiding Post Counts to avoid a forum member looking "above" another? Instead of that, we now have these new groups/titles/status' that basically show the same thing. Everyone should be equal, and individual only by Username (and perhaps a custom Halo 3 Symbol etc).

{A Lot of Words}
He's back . . .
Well summarised in the longest possible way ;-)

I agree completely, as time passes by the title system will be refined and elitism which you're rght does exist will be diluted even more.

  • 01.27.2008 3:35 AM PDT
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Programatically invading forums.

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Posted by: AoDC
Wasn't the whole point of hiding Post Counts to avoid a forum member looking "above" another? Instead of that, we now have these new groups/titles/status' that basically show the same thing. Everyone should be equal, and individual only by Username (and perhaps a custom Halo 3 Symbol etc).

While your goal would certainly result in a nicer environment and a more ideal atmosphere here, it is also, unfortunately, wholly idealistic.

The basic reality here is that "forum elitism" is impossible to avoid. Every time one kind of meaningless statistic is taken away in order to reduce forum elitism, another takes its place. This is blatantly evident in the Halo 3 and Optimatch forums, where such ridiculously meaningless traits as join date, number of games played, rank, favored playlists, and even your player avatar/colors/armor permutation may be cited as a reason that your opinion is somehow less meaningful. How many times have you seen a poster say something like "guys who use the Elite model tend to suck" or "players who use Hayabusa Armor are not very good"? The same is true in reverse. Look at the unearned respect that is nevertheless given to any BNet user with Recon armor, orange text, a special title, or who manages to get a Bungie employee to post in his or her thread, solely for those reasons.

All of this is plainly evident and easy to prove, despite the efforts of the BNet administrators to put everybody on an equal plane. We can run around saying "the only thing that should distinguish you is the content of your posts" all we want -- and it's true. But the basic fact here is that this is a site that caters to fans of online video games. These fans, by nature, enjoy competition, ranks, and individuality. You can't get them to just say, "okay everybody is equal and I will evaluate people solely based on the content of their posts" and have no way of measuring, ranking, or evaluating the quality of those posts. With no way to measure it, many video gamers (especially some Bungie fans, who are used to having every aspect of their games tracked and quantified into statistics that can then be compared to others') are unlikely to pay any attention to the rhetoric that some of the community members here (who are only trying to help) continue to write.

The fact is that every time you eliminate one kind of measure used to elevate or detract from a user's posts, another one will be created. As a result, forum elitism cannot be eliminated here. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, necessarily, because I actually think that it is NOT a bad thing. I'm just saying that it cannot be eliminated and that's the way it is.

Thus, although we now realize that the site's administrators are unable to eliminate the forum elitism that comes inherently with this site based on its membership, I believe that the Web Team now also realizes that they can make small attempts to control it. Since we can all agree that users should distinguish themselves based solely on the content of their posts and contributions to the Community, this means that the site's administrators can create measures that will funnel and direct the forum elitism inherent in this site into something constructive. In other words, if people are going to engage in forum elitism anyway, why not create a "statistic" or "measure" that can indicate the quality of their membership here, which is much more relevant to the validity of an opinion or post, rather than something completely irrelevant?

Now, if you have a rank such as "Heroic" or "Legendary," it means that you are a longtime member of this site who has managed, for the most part, to stay out of trouble. As a caveat: the member titles are not a quantitative measure of the quality of posts or contribution to the Community, but rather a measure of how much the site "trusts" you to be a good member. And while this system is certainly not perfectly tuned and balanced yet, it is definitely a step in the right direction.

The more ways that users can be distinguished based on post quality and community contributions, the better their posts will become. It is not a matter of eliminating forum elitism, but rather guiding and controlling that same elitism into something that will create a better environment for all of us who are big fans of this site and these forums.


Well that was a kick in the balls. Didn't expect a response so in depth.

While your goal would certainly result in a nicer environment and a more ideal atmosphere here, it is also, unfortunately, wholly idealistic.
You've right there said it "would certainly result in a nicer environment". Then you twist it to be anti-realistic, despite the fact that it did and has worked in the past.

The basic reality here is that "forum elitism" is impossible to avoid.
So if you can't beat it, join it? This is a response to a lot of the Halo 3 Forum points as well. As well as the possibility of cheating, was this not one of the reasons the Halo 3 Leader boards were never created?

The more ways that users can be distinguished based on post quality and community contributions, the better their posts will become
This makes no sense. Actually, in the little sense derived, it reinforces my OP. If a user feels their rank makes them above others, then Elitism is a problem. Equality is important in the forum.



[Edited on 01.27.2008 4:04 AM PST]

  • 01.27.2008 4:00 AM PDT
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I haven't seen any elitism come from the introduction of member titles, only respect.

  • 01.27.2008 4:31 AM PDT
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And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

IMO, the new ranks are are a good way to make people behave better.
Want a higher rank? Just behave, and wait.


Posted by: THE CHIEF 87
I haven't seen any elitism come from the introduction of member titles, only respect.

If a person gains more respect because he has a higher rank, that's elitism, right?

[Edited on 01.27.2008 4:42 AM PST]

  • 01.27.2008 4:39 AM PDT
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I HAZ FLAMIN RECONZ!1!1!1!!!!!1!!11!1!1
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I haven't really noticed anyone using their "member status" as an excuse that they're better.

  • 01.27.2008 5:07 AM PDT
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Posted by: Qbix89
If a person gains more respect because he has a higher rank, that's elitism, right?


Elitism would be using your member title to command respect.
If people choose to respect you, then there should be no problem.
In my opinion, if respect comes of it then, elitism or not, it's good.

Anyway, I haven't seen any elitism caused by member titles. I really don't think this is an issue...
OP, any links to support your argument?

[Edited on 01.27.2008 5:18 AM PST]

  • 01.27.2008 5:16 AM PDT
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And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

Posted by: THE CHIEF 87
Anyway, I haven't seen any elitism caused by member titles. I really don't think this is an issue...
OP, any links to support your argument?


The best point in the thread so far.

  • 01.27.2008 5:49 AM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

At least if you see a Heroic or Legendary (or the mythic Mythic) member adding something to a thread you can rest assured that he/she will probably say something constructive.

  • 01.27.2008 5:54 AM PDT
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Exactly. When I am reading through a thread and notice that it is mostly Heroic and Legendary members, I can expect a decent, mature thread.
(e.g. this one)

[Edited on 01.27.2008 5:57 AM PST]

  • 01.27.2008 5:56 AM PDT
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And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

Or go here and notice the blinding stupidity!

  • 01.27.2008 6:23 AM PDT
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Posted by: Qbix89
Or go here and notice the blinding stupidity!


Lol very good example of a bad thread.

  • 01.27.2008 6:30 AM PDT
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Posted by: Styles P
Posted by: flamedude
At least if you see a Heroic or Legendary (or the mythic Mythic) member adding something to a thread you can rest assured that he/she will probably say something constructive.
Now that is title discrimination.


No. If he was to say " If you don't see Heroic or Legendary member, then you can be sure that the person wont have anything constructive to say," then it would be discrimination.

[Edited on 01.27.2008 6:44 AM PST]

  • 01.27.2008 6:42 AM PDT

blahoogana (bluh·hoo·gan·uh), noun - er, just call me Josh.

BP | B.me

If it bothers you so much, just ignore the titles. If you ask me, they don't really tell you much. . .for example, look at Foman. If anyone deserves a title it's him, and yet he's only a "Member". All "Heroic" really means is, "Hey, I've been here a while." My advice is to have fun and don't worry about it.

  • 01.27.2008 6:48 AM PDT
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The only Twitter I follow. Except yours ;)
The Frozen Minority; Bungie's real underground. The oldest members, the deepest controversy, walking infamy.

Basic human trait: desire to progress through rank.

People need to face the fact that, no matter how much they say it, everyone here wants respect and to be a prominant member of this community. The titles give people something to work for. And it is very hard to fake, unlike a post count. There's a reason behind the 30 suck-up friend requests I deny every day (nothing personal, guys, I just don't want any new friends) - they want titles and crap.

It is hard to believe that not everyone here is equal. The 05 member who draws up FAQ's and groups to help people is far more credible than the month old account who has 3 blacklists and tends to post stuff like "lol we need dual swords u tool!". I believe that if you have been a member for a number of years and have earned a member title, you deserve to be looked up to by the new kid who has been here a week.


It's not like those with titles are exempt from anything, when they get banned they lose that title.


tl;dr: People need goals or there's not much point coming back day after day with a main account.

  • 01.27.2008 7:31 AM PDT
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And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

Well put, Pezz.
The new member ranks give people something to achieve; a reason to behave, sorta speak.

  • 01.27.2008 7:44 AM PDT

Controlling fission events without incident since May, 2012.

Posted by: AODC
The basic reality here is that "forum elitism" is impossible to avoid.
So if you can't beat it, join it? This is a response to a lot of the Halo 3 Forum points as well. As well as the possibility of cheating, was this not one of the reasons the Halo 3 Leader boards were never created?


You're speaking in more radical terms. Cheating in a game isn't one of those traits expressed by the majority of people here. It's competitiveness, which is expressed through this elitism. Although it is a problem, I would like to think if you were mature enough it wouldn't be existent. The problem with this is the site's demographic is 13-20 year old males, and levels of maturity would speak for themselves.

The more ways that users can be distinguished based on post quality and community contributions, the better their posts will become
This makes no sense. Actually, in the little sense derived, it reinforces my OP. If a user feels their rank makes them above others, then Elitism is a problem. Equality is important in the forum.


Operation: Equality had been tried for years, and finally Achronos and the web team decided they were sick of constantly looking for new ways to block our new ways of producing elitism. They were tired of playing daycare for the site.
The way I see the titles is it is reverse psychology, if you will. By giving us our own little slice of individualism, we're content.

  • 01.27.2008 7:49 AM PDT

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Need help finding skulls, make sure to go here.

Quite frankly, I have yet to see anyone abuse their title in a way to make it seem elitist. Even if they do, the punishment is severe enough that they will lose this title. If you see it, report it, and the matter will be taken care of. It's sad that people in this community want things taken away, for the sole reason that it could cause problems. Especially now that we have better features to deal with problems.

  • 01.27.2008 8:42 AM PDT

Halo 3 Sonnet

We are the Bungie community, and thus, by definition, we are given the right to complain about any work that Bungie produces, mentions, or even thinks about, with no limits set by knowledge, logic, common sense, or understanding of sarcasm!

I was going to post my thoughts, but after reading Foman's post it would be beating a dead horse.

Very well said, and pretty much my exact thoughts 0_o

  • 01.27.2008 9:33 AM PDT