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  • Subject: Elitism...
Subject: Elitism...
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Read about the Forgotten Spartan I Program
Butane: To protect the world from devastation!
sir_brilliant: To unite all people within our nation!
Rainman89: To denounce the evils of truth and love!
sir_brilliant: To extend out reach to the stars above!
SpaceGhostFlyer: Jessie!
Butane: James!
sir_brilliant: Team Rocket blasting off at the speed of light
Butane: Surrender now or prepare to fight
sir_brilliant: Meowth, that's right!

And here I hoped if I took a few months off while my interest waned, I'd come back and find the site free of the problems it used to have.

Elitism has rarely been a problem for me, I've seen twice as many threads about elitism than any actual acts of it around here.

JAY132, wherever you are- You win.

  • 01.27.2008 9:35 AM PDT

Posted by: Pezz
People need to face the fact that, no matter how much they say it, everyone here wants respect and to be a prominant member of this community. The titles give people something to work for. And it is very hard to fake, unlike a post count.


I don't give anyone respect because they have Legendary or Heroic, or even Forum Ninja under their name. Respect is earned, not due to someone's join date.

I understand the idea behind our new titles, but since Achronos remains cryptic as to how we got these titles. It's hard for people to care, because the fact is 90% of us have our titles because of our join dates......and not any REAL actions or contributions to the B.net community.

To me, our titles are meaningless.

  • 01.27.2008 9:38 AM PDT

Posted by: atomic weggie
Posted by: Pezz
People need to face the fact that, no matter how much they say it, everyone here wants respect and to be a prominant member of this community. The titles give people something to work for. And it is very hard to fake, unlike a post count.


I don't give anyone respect because they have Legendary or Heroic, or even Forum Ninja under their name. Respect is earned, not due to someone's join date.

I understand the idea behind our new titles, but since Achronos remains cryptic as to how we got these titles. It's hard for people to care, because the fact is 90% of us have our titles because of our join dates......and not any REAL actions or contributions to the B.net community.

To me, our titles are meaningless.
That's not entirely true... If nothing else, it's at least join date + consistent good behavior. It shows that a member has been a member of this community (with the same account) for a decent amount of time without behaving like a complete -blam!-tard.

  • 01.27.2008 10:03 AM PDT

Posted by: Big Black Bear
Posted by: atomic weggie
Posted by: Pezz
People need to face the fact that, no matter how much they say it, everyone here wants respect and to be a prominant member of this community. The titles give people something to work for. And it is very hard to fake, unlike a post count.


I don't give anyone respect because they have Legendary or Heroic, or even Forum Ninja under their name. Respect is earned, not due to someone's join date.

I understand the idea behind our new titles, but since Achronos remains cryptic as to how we got these titles. It's hard for people to care, because the fact is 90% of us have our titles because of our join dates......and not any REAL actions or contributions to the B.net community.

To me, our titles are meaningless.
That's not entirely true... If nothing else, it's at least join date + consistent good behavior. It shows that a member has been a member of this community (with the same account) for a decent amount of time without behaving like a complete -blam!-tard.


Bear, I know of at least 5 people who have been blacklisted over 10 times, and they have Heroic or Legendary below their names. Now maybe from here on out if someone get's BL'd they will lose their rank, but don't tell me past behavior went into these titles.

  • 01.27.2008 11:18 AM PDT
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Posted by: Primum Agmen
A tosser is the same as a wanker. To toss oneself off is to fondle the trouser weasel.


Achronos

Joe Staten

@atomic weggie

If you don't know how the titles work you can't really talk about how they were given, can you? Maybe if Acrhonos comes and explains how they work maybe then you may start bashing the system.

  • 01.27.2008 11:33 AM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: atomic weggie

Bear, I know of at least 5 people who have been blacklisted over 10 times, and they have Heroic or Legendary below their names. Now maybe from here on out if someone get's BL'd they will lose their rank, but don't tell me past behavior went into these titles.


How long ago did these happen? The Trust System has only been in affect for a year, so anything prior to this time isn't on record.

  • 01.27.2008 11:37 AM PDT
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I get messages from certain forum members about how I dont know what I'm talking about because of my join date and things like that. Its rather annoying hearing things from someone who ive people complain about doing the same thing. I dont really want to list this persons name, I just think it is rather annoying that people act in such a way because of my join date.

  • 01.27.2008 11:48 AM PDT

We’ve watched while the stars burned
Out, and creation played in reverse.
The Universe freezing in half-light.
Once I thought to escape.
To end a master, step out of the
Path of collapse. Escape would make us God.
Yet I cannot help but remember one enigma,
A hybrid, elusive destroyer.
This is the one mystery I have not solved.
The only element unaccounted for.

I'd probably have to post more than once a month to be elitist. I do use an Elite model, though. Subconcious maybe?

Edit: Gee, BTP, I'd agree you have a point if you'd been a member longer than a week ;-)

[Edited on 01.27.2008 12:20 PM PST]

  • 01.27.2008 12:18 PM PDT
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ya if you haven't been here for a year or more theres no need to get wound up about titles.

Just follow the rules. Common sense.

  • 01.27.2008 12:30 PM PDT

<3 PMS Clan-Twitter-Personal Site
Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

Nice post, Forman. One thing (and I'm sure it's been posted, I must have missed it) is that those given the titles aren't supposed to be the kind of people who become 1337157 (Elitist).

[Edited on 01.27.2008 12:42 PM PST]

  • 01.27.2008 12:39 PM PDT

Proof there is a God.
My RT account page.
My Grifball user page.
So if you really want to get to know me, you're welcome to add me anywhere.

Posted by: AoDC
Well that was a kick in the balls. Didn't expect a response so in depth.

While your goal would certainly result in a nicer environment and a more ideal atmosphere here, it is also, unfortunately, wholly idealistic.
You've right there said it "would certainly result in a nicer environment". Then you twist it to be anti-realistic, despite the fact that it did and has worked in the past.

The basic reality here is that "forum elitism" is impossible to avoid.
So if you can't beat it, join it? This is a response to a lot of the Halo 3 Forum points as well. As well as the possibility of cheating, was this not one of the reasons the Halo 3 Leader boards were never created?

The more ways that users can be distinguished based on post quality and community contributions, the better their posts will become
This makes no sense. Actually, in the little sense derived, it reinforces my OP. If a user feels their rank makes them above others, then Elitism is a problem. Equality is important in the forum.


You picked and chose which points to argue. Foman made a perfectly reasonable and logical case, so please present some new evidence or counter-point before you revert to meaningless retort.

Where did all these straw men come from? Seriously. I think it's a disease.

  • 01.27.2008 12:56 PM PDT

I agree with Pezz on this matter. I didn't read Foman's post.

  • 01.27.2008 1:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: un gato
Edit: Gee, BTP, I'd agree you have a point if you'd been a member longer than a week ;-)


Give me a couple of days and ill post it again :P

Does anyone know what I should do about such messages? Apparently the same guy has been attacking numerous users.

  • 01.27.2008 2:38 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
No.

Foman and prommie both make a dramatic return with well thought out responces to a genuine question.

This could be the end of a sappy drama.

Posted by: BTP Dagger
Posted by: un gato
Edit: Gee, BTP, I'd agree you have a point if you'd been a member longer than a week ;-)


Give me a couple of days and ill post it again :P

Does anyone know what I should do about such messages? Apparently the same guy has been attacking numerous users.

report as spam button.

  • 01.27.2008 3:00 PM PDT
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Posted by: conko bob 43
Foman and prommie both make a dramatic return with well thought out responces to a genuine question.

This could be the end of a sappy drama.

Posted by: BTP Dagger
Posted by: un gato
Edit: Gee, BTP, I'd agree you have a point if you'd been a member longer than a week ;-)


Give me a couple of days and ill post it again :P

Does anyone know what I should do about such messages? Apparently the same guy has been attacking numerous users.

report as spam button.

Its in PMs

  • 01.27.2008 3:10 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: conko bob 43
Foman and prommie both make a dramatic return with well thought out responces to a genuine question.


Interesting, isn't it.

It's almost as if...were the same person!

-Forrest's a bit too long-winded for Jeff, but Jeff is far-too-easily pulled into argument for Forrest.-

  • 01.27.2008 5:01 PM PDT
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Posted by: prometheus25
It's almost as if...we're the same person!

-Forrest's a bit too long-winded for Jeff, but Jeff is far-too-easily pulled into argument for Forrest.-


Foman doesn't make such errors.

Nor does he copy others' posting styles.

[Edited on 01.27.2008 5:30 PM PST]

  • 01.27.2008 5:30 PM PDT

Estne volumen in toga an solum tibi libet me videre?

Nothing suits me like a suit.

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

Achievement Unlocked: Wort Wort Wort *I think that was the right achievement*

I think the member titles are rewards to those members who really deserve them. If you were a member who has been here since Marathon or Halo: CE, been an active and a valued community member, wouldn't you want a little reward? Yes, new members will want them, but that just encourages them to become better members. No more 'I can haz Recon' threads or pointless one word posts in The Flood for them. Like Foman said, elitism is impossible to avoid, anywhere. People with more experience tend to get more respect and their words listned more than those who just got here. Say you just get hired at a company, would you accuse the boss of being elitist because he/ she tells people what to do? No, the same goes here, only without most of the consiquinces (sp?). Herioic and Legendary members have been here a long time, obeyed the rules, and are given a reward, same for Mythic members. Is there anything wrong with some encouragement?

  • 01.27.2008 5:42 PM PDT
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SPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!

I rarely see people lording their titles over other users. When I do see that happening...let's just say they lose those titles very quickly.

We have quite a few problems on this website, and I believe the titles help to eliminate more problems than they cause. Someone who has a "Heroic" or "Legendary" may be less likely to reply to spam or flame, because aside from a blacklist, they know they run a risk of losing that title. The old way did not provide us with that extra incentive to behave, so many of us did not. I think more of us are behaving now, so I believe the titles are a smashing success. All in all, I think that after weighing the pros and cons of the member titles, the pros outweigh the cons, so I think they were an excellent addition.

Though I understand your egalitarian notion OP, when we were mostly egalitarian, it was not working as well as it works now. After looking at both systems, the incentive to behave now, which we did not have before seems to have fixed some of our issues without making too many other issues. There was no long term incentive for behaving before, and quite a few people noticed. Now that there are long term incentives, people are more likely to at least read and follow the rules. I think we can tolerate a minimal amount of "elitism" as long as people are behaving, especially since we can easily see "elitism" when it happens, and deal with it.

Incidentally, there is and always has been "elitism" on this site anyway, so I don't think anything has really changed there. Same ol' same ol' with a few benefits. The benefits far outweigh the problems, so I'd rather we kept those titles. In fact, I'm hoping for more incentives at the margin for good behavior soon.

  • 01.27.2008 7:48 PM PDT
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The new member titles don't refer to post count, mostly the amount of time members have been around or how much Bungie may trust them.

  • 01.27.2008 8:00 PM PDT

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

member titles involve how long a person has been a member and how many times he has been dinged by the mods. since that is the case, i hope that nobody puts much weight into them. heck, i recently saw an account that was 3 years old and had fewer than 12 total posts, and it "earned" heroic status. if someone feels better than anyone based on such a title, or if anyone is jealous of such a title, then i cannot fathom why.

we are all equal in that we can share our thoughts in the bnet forums.

  • 01.27.2008 8:13 PM PDT

The new system is most helpful to newer users.

If you've been around long enough, you already know who the more wizened members of the community are. This system merely makes that visible to newer members that are less familiar with those people.

I don't need a title to tell me that Foman knows his stuff. A title doesn't tell me that Basilisk is Webcam MVP. A newer user should look to those users for guidance if they're unsure of something here on Bungie.net.

  • 01.27.2008 8:17 PM PDT
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Try to convince the regulars in the optimatch forum of that. Now thats a challenge.

  • 01.27.2008 8:18 PM PDT

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

Posted by: PyRo Tek NikS
Try to convince the regulars in the optimatch forum of that. Now thats a challenge.

are there many regulars in the optimatch forums? it seems that a handful of accounts are regulars for a few weeks, then they all get banned, and then there is a new handful of new accounts that become regulars, and then they all get banned, and then there is a new batch of new accounts, and on and on.

as for evilcam's claims, we cannot know now how effective adding member titles has been at improving member behavior in the threads. for starters, didn't the member titles appear at about the same time as the spam button? and, even if there has been an improvement in behavior since the addition of titles, that alone does not warrant our belief that there is a causal connection between the two.

  • 01.27.2008 8:26 PM PDT
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I have yet to see somebody stating "My forum rank is higher. I am better then you are". I NEVER see that. I do see "Rank Elitism" far more often. This is probably because of the , where the longer you are a member, the less likely you are too start flaming. Its probably sublymonal mind control embedded in the weakly updates. (as well as hidden deep in the hex code of every page).

The new ranks HOWEVER breed good behavior ~ getting warnings/black listings are a BAD idea and HAUNT you FOREVER! So stick too the rules....

[Edited on 01.27.2008 9:09 PM PST]

  • 01.27.2008 8:37 PM PDT