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  • Subject: Elitism...
Subject: Elitism...
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I feel that having the new member titles gives the community something to look forward too. I usually trust posters with a higher member status then a new account just because they've been here longer and usually have something good to say without breaking the rules.

  • 01.27.2008 10:40 PM PDT
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Posted by: sesquipadelian
as for evilcam's claims, we cannot know now how effective adding member titles has been at improving member behavior in the threads. for starters, didn't the member titles appear at about the same time as the spam button? and, even if there has been an improvement in behavior since the addition of titles, that alone does not warrant our belief that there is a causal connection between the two.


I agree entirely. Personally I dont think they are working so well. I've seen members lose their heroic member status, their webcam MVP status, etc. and I dont think they cared about these much or they wouldnt have gotten themselves banned. I simply wish that people who have already lost their titles would stop attacking others and learn their lesson.

  • 01.28.2008 6:40 AM PDT

I totally agree that creating an enhanced join date and placing it right under my ID promotes good forum behavior and discourages members from bringing up join dates when opinions differ and each party runs out of arguments - ha. I mean I've see at least a few in this thread talk about how they take those with titles more seriously than those without. I get that "they" are trying to encourage good behavior and have instituted a "rep" system and that's fine. It doesn't bother me and seems like a good idea but don't think for a second it doesn't encourage elitism. Anyway, if you can't beat em and minimize elitism, bring it up front and center for all to see.

  • 01.28.2008 7:27 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: BTP Dagger
Posted by: sesquipadelian
as for evilcam's claims, we cannot know now how effective adding member titles has been at improving member behavior in the threads. for starters, didn't the member titles appear at about the same time as the spam button? and, even if there has been an improvement in behavior since the addition of titles, that alone does not warrant our belief that there is a causal connection between the two.


I agree entirely. Personally I dont think they are working so well. I've seen members lose their heroic member status, their webcam MVP status, etc. and I dont think they cared about these much or they wouldnt have gotten themselves banned. I simply wish that people who have already lost their titles would stop attacking others and learn their lesson.
Note that evilcam went out of his way to say that it "seems" and that he "believes" that the member titles are having a beneficial effect. Sesquip's point that it can't really be proved either way is mostly just stating the obvious. And while the cause-and-effect may or may not be there (and who can really say one way or the other without any kind of scientific evidence?), it doesn't matter. Forum behavior is improving in the opinions of many people (including me), and this improvement happened to occur at the same time that the Report button and member titles were instituted.

Again, though, my opinion is that it doesn't really matter. At the very least, member titles are a step in the right direction. Many longtime members and moderators here have suggested that they would be in favor of a system of noticeable-but-small rewards in exchange for good behavior here, for the same reasons that I and Pezz and a few others have outlined in previous posts in this thread. Blatant forum elitism in the form of "I am better than you because of my status on the site" can be eliminated by removing those rewards from the "elevated" members who practice it, while giving everybody something to strive for.

Again, we have to face up to the fact that we as Bungie fans are -- almost by definition and certainly by implication -- a culture of video gamers who love competitiveness, ranks, progressions, and setting ourselves apart as individuals. The way that the site's administrators have, over and over again, eliminated certain sources of forum elitism only to see others pop up has been a frustrating reminder of that.

I think that this relatively new tactic of trying to control and funnel that desire to stratify or "rank" the members of this site into something constructive (such as good rather than bad forum behavior) is a great idea. Hopefully, other ideas will come along and be instituted that are not too drastic but yet continue to encourage this desired effect without suppressing the playful and laid-back atmosphere that makes this place so much fun to visit while we are bored at work or school :-)

  • 01.28.2008 7:48 AM PDT
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Posted by: x Foman123 x
Posted by: BTP Dagger
Posted by: sesquipadelian
as for evilcam's claims, we cannot know now how effective adding member titles has been at improving member behavior in the threads. for starters, didn't the member titles appear at about the same time as the spam button? and, even if there has been an improvement in behavior since the addition of titles, that alone does not warrant our belief that there is a causal connection between the two.


I agree entirely. Personally I dont think they are working so well. I've seen members lose their heroic member status, their webcam MVP status, etc. and I dont think they cared about these much or they wouldnt have gotten themselves banned. I simply wish that people who have already lost their titles would stop attacking others and learn their lesson.
Note that evilcam went out of his way to say that it "seems" and that he "believes" that the member titles are having a beneficial effect. Sesquip's point that it can't really be proved either way is mostly just stating the obvious. And while the cause-and-effect may or may not be there (and who can really say one way or the other without any kind of scientific evidence?), it doesn't matter. Forum behavior is improving in the opinions of many people (including me), and this improvement happened to occur at the same time that the Report button and member titles were instituted.

If you read his posts, you will notice this is a pattern. When he makes a debatable point, don't bother contesting as he will rinse and repeat the same point until you die of old age.


Again, though, my opinion is that it doesn't really matter. At the very least, member titles are a step in the right direction. Many longtime members and moderators here have suggested that they would be in favor of a system of noticeable-but-small rewards in exchange for good behavior here, for the same reasons that I and Pezz and a few others have outlined in previous posts in this thread. Blatant forum elitism in the form of "I am better than you because of my status on the site" can be eliminated by removing those rewards from the "elevated" members who practice it, while giving everybody something to strive for.

Its already been said, as jay pointed out, that numerous people listen more to heroic members than regular members. I've been PMed saying I shouldn't talk because my account isnt old enough, hell, by people posting in this thread, and I simply find it appalling that someone would have the nerve to say something like that.

Blatant forum elitism isnt so much of a problem as the statements of people in this thread, which say things like, i listen more to higher members, which i see as wrong.

I think that this relatively new tactic of trying to control and funnel that desire to stratify or "rank" the members of this site into something constructive (such as good rather than bad forum behavior) is a great idea. Hopefully, other ideas will come along and be instituted that are not too drastic but yet continue to encourage this desired effect without suppressing the playful and laid-back atmosphere that makes this place so much fun to visit while we are bored at work or school :-)
The problem I have with this is the "trust" system isn't based on who makes good posts, who is constructive, etc. but instead on how long youve been here. Look at yourself. Youve taken the time to address many points, be constructive, and you are a regular member, while I just looked at the flood and they are talking about how mexicans who have jobs are mytical creatures.... and these are heroic members?

I simply see a problem with good members being members and blatant racists being "heroic"

EDIT: Excuse me, webcam MVPs, not heroic members. Here. This is the second webcam MVP ive seen massively violating the forum rules, and i dont think ive been here more than a week. That is simply disgusting.

[Edited on 01.28.2008 8:09 AM PST]

  • 01.28.2008 8:05 AM PDT
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I agree i dnt see myself as better than anybody else.... edit ment to quote someone lol but anyway i dont see myself as being better because i got a higher status

[Edited on 01.28.2008 8:11 AM PST]

  • 01.28.2008 8:09 AM PDT
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Posted by: SEF Davis
I agree i dnt see myself as better than anybody else


Please dont take this as an insult on your character, or anything of the sort, but have you really only made 18 posts in almost two years? And if so, do you consider yourself more constructive/worthy of rewards than people who have been here for less than a year but have consistently made good posts over the year?

  • 01.28.2008 8:12 AM PDT
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The only titles that matter are the moderator titles......I.e Forum Ninja....Im sorry if you feel inadequate with this cause of the titles and stuff.

  • 01.28.2008 8:21 AM PDT
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I use my other accout... FBI AGT Davis


Posted by: BTP Dagger
Posted by: SEF Davis
I agree i dnt see myself as better than anybody else


Please dont take this as an insult on your character, or anything of the sort, but have you really only made 18 posts in almost two years? And if so, do you consider yourself more constructive/worthy of rewards than people who have been here for less than a year but have consistently made good posts over the year?

  • 01.28.2008 8:56 AM PDT

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

to us it is stating the obvious, but many people in the forums seem to love to jump to wild conclusions, which is why i pointed out that we cannot know about a causal connection between member titles and improved forum behavior.

i am not excited at all about forum titles, but i know that some people are, so that is a clear benefit of their addition. i am excited about the report spam feature since that allows each and every bnet member to bring inappropriate posts to the attention of the mods.

as for improved behavior in the forums, i have not noticed that. i still see direct attacks against other users all over the place, i still see closed-minded remarks, and i still see accounts getting banned all of the time. if anything, the report spam feature will help because it will better point out posts that break rules and users will be punished more often than they would have otherwise.
i would be most excited if they were to adopt something that one of the mods mentioned (i think it was recon 54, but i may be mistaken), and that is that people who wish to post in the optimatch forums must link an active gamertag. since optimatch posts have the ability to help produce change in h3 mm, having posters link gamertags would instantly bring accountability to the forum. right now, a poster can get banned, start a new bnet account the same day, and start breaking the rules again and disrupt the forums without interruption. if linked gamertags were required, people who have a stake in how h3 mm operates would still be able to voice their concerns and ideas, but people who get banned would have a much harder time avoiding bans by using alt accounts.

even though i would love to see that in place, i doubt that it will happen. but, i would love it if bungie could run the numbers on rates of bannings and look to see if there is a markedly higher rate of bannings of accounts that do no have gamertags linked than with those that do have tags linked. this is just a guess based on my perception of the forums, but it seems that there is no shortage of brand new accounts without gamertags linked getting banned in optimatch.
Posted by: x Foman123 x
Sesquip's point that it can't really be proved either way is mostly just stating the obvious. And while the cause-and-effect may or may not be there (and who can really say one way or the other without any kind of scientific evidence?), it doesn't matter. Forum behavior is improving in the opinions of many people (including me), and this improvement happened to occur at the same time that the Report button and member titles were instituted.

  • 01.28.2008 9:02 AM PDT

In the heart of Africa, at the dawn of time. They built it.
Posted by: x Foman123 x
S3NATOR has brilliantly taken the next philosophical and theoretical step, and advanced mankind once more. For that, I'm forever grateful.

*lollernadoes*

Posted by: BTP Dagger
EDIT: Excuse me, webcam MVPs, not heroic members. Here. This is the second webcam MVP ive seen massively violating the forum rules, and i dont think ive been here more than a week. That is simply disgusting.

Srsly? You are going to turn this into another one of your threads about an individual. Anyways, the webcam MVP titles are nothing like the heroic and legendary titles. They just mean you won in the webcam game.

S3N

  • 01.28.2008 9:27 AM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: elmicker
Posted by: prometheus25
It's almost as if...we're the same person!

-Forrest's a bit too long-winded for Jeff, but Jeff is far-too-easily pulled into argument for Forrest.-


Foman doesn't make such errors.

Nor does he copy others' posting styles.


Sue me. No wait...sue Foman; he owes me a favor anyways.

  • 01.28.2008 10:12 AM PDT
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So now I'm a beta tester. Let's see where this goes.

Here's my opinion (if it matters): Member titles have not been a problem. They don't present a future problem. They are a very meager* reward for acting as one should. So with that said lets worry about some of the real problems that the forum has.

*Edit: Misspelling. Sorry.

[Edited on 01.28.2008 11:29 AM PST]

  • 01.28.2008 10:38 AM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: Nedge
Here's my opinion (if it matters): Member titles have not been a problem. They don't present a future problem. They are a very meger reward for acting as one should. So with that said lets worry about some of the real problems that the forum has.


Agreed. Since they've been here, they haven't been a problem untill someone makes it one. Coincidentally, it always seems to be the ones that don't have a new rank that brings up elitism; for shame : (

  • 01.28.2008 10:49 AM PDT

Posted by: prometheus25
(snip) ...they haven't been a problem untill someone makes it one.
That's how problems usually work :)

  • 01.28.2008 11:10 AM PDT
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Posted by: S3NATOR
Posted by: BTP Dagger
EDIT: Excuse me, webcam MVPs, not heroic members. Here. This is the second webcam MVP ive seen massively violating the forum rules, and i dont think ive been here more than a week. That is simply disgusting.

Srsly? You are going to turn this into another one of your threads about an individual. Anyways, the webcam MVP titles are nothing like the heroic and legendary titles. They just mean you won in the webcam game.

S3N


I think you may have confused me with someone else, I assure you I've never made a thread on this site.

  • 01.28.2008 11:17 AM PDT

SB-117

It can lead to elitism. That sucks.

However, the community segregates itself already. The ridiculous term "Floodian" comes to mind.

The member titles encourage good behaviour and add value to your account. The drawback of "elitism" is miniscule when compared to the positives of that ladder system.

Or something...

  • 01.28.2008 11:21 AM PDT

Trailer Park Boys ~ One of the best Canadian made comedies ever.

Unfortunely, every few months ”Elitism" threads seems to pop up.

People who whine about Elitism on this site have to grow up and accept the fact it is and will always remain. Yes it's true, it's here but Elitism exists in every website in some way shape or form; some more than others. B.net has very low elitisist properties compared to other forums I frequently go to.

Member titles display a member's behaviour over the years they've been on B.net. Sure, newer members may feel left out but that doesn't stop them from acting appropriately and becoming recognized by the community. A few examples are Foman and I. Look at Foman, he's just a member and he is a pretty recognized fellow here. Did his "Member" title hold him back? No. It's a two worded title, big deal. If you think you're higher than someone because you’re a heroic member, ect, all it shows is how immature and ignorant you are. I'm a member because I was accidentally blacklisted by a moderator, but do you see me losing my friends here or me changing my posting habits? No.

Member, Heroic Member, Legendary Member, Mythic Member....WE'RE ALL THE SAME! We don't have any more privileges than one another. We all wear disgusting plaid clothes and live in straw huts and are at the mercy of the Forum Ninjas and their bosses. Elitism is the result of jealousy by members who think a group is better than them or because a member's posting habits is more professional looking than their own.

The last thing we need is people marching up to their respective city halls and shouting that the city council is elitists and resulting in a building being burnt to the ground =/

  • 01.28.2008 11:28 AM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

*facepalm*

I'm thinking I should turn back on post counts and such just make all of you chicken littles of elitism run around scared.

Look - if you see someone violating the rules, use the report post button. Did you think its appearance at the same time as titles wasn't planned? Duh! Otherwise, stop worrying about it.

Posted by: AoDC
Wasn't the whole point of hiding Post Counts to avoid a forum member looking "above" another? Instead of that, we now have these new groups/titles/status' that basically show the same thing. Everyone should be equal, and individual only by Username (and perhaps a custom Halo 3 Symbol etc).

  • 01.28.2008 1:58 PM PDT
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And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

Posted by: Achronos
*facepalm*

I'm thinking I should turn back on post counts and such just make all of you chicken littles of elitism run around scared.

Hahahaha.

  • 01.28.2008 2:04 PM PDT

No signature found. Click here to change this.

Oh. Dear. God.

Read this. I'm not kidding, read it, dammit.

  • 01.28.2008 2:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
I'm thinking I should turn back on post counts


I concur.

  • 01.28.2008 2:14 PM PDT
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I have about a 1,000 posts a month so I don't need post counts. I'll post 10,000 - 17,000 times a year no big deal.

On another site I posted 20,000 times within 8 months.

[Edited on 01.28.2008 2:19 PM PST]

  • 01.28.2008 2:18 PM PDT

Proof there is a God.
My RT account page.
My Grifball user page.
So if you really want to get to know me, you're welcome to add me anywhere.

Question, Achronos--

Since we were talking about my fellow Webcam MVPs, is it possible that a blacklisting would remove such title? I mean, it's a title, a privilege, just like any other member title. Not referring to the thread mentioned earlier, if one of my kind were to get a blacklisting or warning sufficient enough, would their title be effectively removed?

I just don't want people thinking we're immune or something, without having the same repercussions that they would have if we were to break the rules.

I can't speak for the rest of us MVPs, but I wear the title with pride.

EDIT- Just so that last comment doesn't get misconstrued: I would never use my title over another individual.

There, I said it.

[Edited on 01.28.2008 2:34 PM PST]

  • 01.28.2008 2:33 PM PDT