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  • Subject: Why is the Halo CE pistol unbalanced?
Subject: Why is the Halo CE pistol unbalanced?
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We already established the reason.

Somebody doubled the power just before ship date.

  • 03.03.2008 7:15 AM PDT
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Posted by: Rhudebaker
We already established the reason.

Somebody doubled the power just before ship date.

It sounded like the Bungie boys were just cracking more jokes in the podcast, not actually explaining why.

  • 03.03.2008 4:55 PM PDT
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Hardly "far from an attack", friend, you'd piss off quite a few people if you talked with them in such a manner ;) Anyways, gun balance can be looked at from so many different angles and perspectives, there isn't any "this is just how it is" involved.
Agree to disagree and "this is just how it is" was referring to my statements in the previous post.

I'm not in the mood to copy and paste a page worth of material, so I'll just reply in general.

If you are more of the "entertainment" gamer, then I can't really refute your statements, as your view is just an opinion, so there's no more arguing the effectiveness of weapons such as the Plasma Rifle et cetera.

I've never been a fan of those "tactical" game players, (RTS for example), and have always deemed skill higher than superfluous decisions, so the whole "tactics above skill" thing isn't my piece of cake.

I noticed you switched Player A and Player B in your scenario; don't worry I won't be on top of you for that.

And finally, in my opinion, if the pistol were to be dumbed down as you would like it, power weapons (Trio weapons as you call them) would be elevated to the "domination" status, as you put it. Without a suitable means of defending one's self, the power weapons would be unstoppable in their respective suites, and win both map, powerup, and weapon (respawn) control, and thereby, effectively win the game at the flip of a coin, the ever so loved, spawn position.

  • 03.03.2008 6:01 PM PDT

People label it as "unbalanced" because you can do crazy things with it which make it such a powerful weapon that supposedly its strengths outweigh its weaknesses. Being able to shoot down Banshees on the level Halo from hundreds of yards away is a good example of this.

I absolutely agree that the pistol is too powerful, but I disagree with anyone who says that it isn't an awesome weapon. It's ridiculously overpowered, but in a very fun way: taking someone out from halfway across Blood Gulch with just a pistol is pretty sweet, IMHO.

I think that it would cause a lot of issues with online play, because there would always be a faction hollering that it's too unbalanced to the point that it ruins gameplay. However, you're not going to get that kind of hollering at a LAN party -- you're going to get thrown Cheetos and wild screams of triumph, which is awesome, and I think that's a part of why issues like that which wouldn't work well online, do end up working well for LAN, which is what the game was designed for.

As to why it is unbalanced in the first place? Somewhere in the Harold Ryan podcast they said that it was a late change, but they could have just been having a laugh.

[Edited on 03.03.2008 6:46 PM PST]

  • 03.03.2008 6:45 PM PDT
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Posted by: No1 But Some1
Agree to disagree and "this is just how it is" was referring to my statements in the previous post.

I'm not in the mood to copy and paste a page worth of material, so I'll just reply in general.

K.

If you are more of the "entertainment" gamer, then I can't really refute your statements, as your view is just an opinion, so there's no more arguing the effectiveness of weapons such as the Plasma Rifle et cetera.
I guess that's a fair assessment of my mindset, I'm competitive, but not nearly competitive to be interested in becoming concerned with ranks or various skill metrics, etc. I like to use the stuffing out of every weapon I pick up, and don't like wanting to use something but avoiding it anyways.

I've never been a fan of those "tactical" game players, (RTS for example), and have always deemed skill higher than superfluous decisions, so the whole "tactics above skill" thing isn't my piece of cake.
Funny you should say that, as RTSes are a favourite gaming genre of mine, along with FPSes. I like to make my play as tactical as I can, I prefer to fight the enemy on my own terms rather than relying on my skill as a shooter. I can definitely shoot well enough to achieve a good score, but I prefer to play differently most of the time.

I noticed you switched Player A and Player B in your scenario; don't worry I won't be on top of you for that.
My bad, hard to keep track of of people's names when they don't have any :p

And finally, in my opinion, if the pistol were to be dumbed down as you would like it, power weapons (Trio weapons as you call them) would be elevated to the "domination" status, as you put it. Without a suitable means of defending one's self, the power weapons would be unstoppable in their respective suites, and win both map, powerup, and weapon (respawn) control, and thereby, effectively win the game at the flip of a coin, the ever so loved, spawn position.
I towards thinking power/trio weapons are designed to dominate, and should, but should be limited in other ways (rof, ammo magazine, spawn locations, etc). And if that's not enough, design the level to add more disadvantages to using them, like having the spawn highly exposed, the pathway to it highly exposed, etc, so other players have an open opportunity to kill players seeking trio weapons.

  • 03.03.2008 6:55 PM PDT
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There are no Trio weapons. They are called power weapons. They do not need to be as weak as the pistol.

You can whine all you want, but I'll be making a strategy to counter the issue instead of getting owned by it.

  • 03.03.2008 11:24 PM PDT
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All my opinion.

It's considered overpowered because it is stronger then a rifle, has a scope, and is only a sidearm. It's also useful for many situations, it can even replace the shotgun if you can't find one.

It's also accurate and longed range, so it beats the Assault rifle, again.

  • 03.04.2008 12:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: Rhudebaker
There are no Trio weapons. They are called power weapons. They do not need to be as weak as the pistol.

You can whine all you want, but I'll be making a strategy to counter the issue instead of getting owned by it.

Some people probably wouldn't define a sniper rifle or a shotgun as a "power weapon", so I'm just trying to be all-inclusive, follow me? ;)

And you must realize I'm not whining here at all, if I was whining, I'd just say the weapons balance sucks, and offer no further elaboration or possible solutions. If whining was my ultimate goal, I wouldn't go to all this trouble, Rhudebaker :)

  • 03.04.2008 12:26 PM PDT

One reason I would say it's "unblanced" is because, if you listened to the Bungie Podcast, you'll notice that one of the developers said someone accidentally doubled the damage the Pistol bullets should do.. right before the game shipped. There was nothing Bungie could do about it.

But, uhh, ever tried walking through Blood Gulch on foot, and not getting raype'd by the Pistol? It gets you almost every single time. The only place the Pistol won't really raype you is in close, close quarters, and when you have a shotgun.

On Halo 1 PC, the game wasn't geared towards netplay, so the netcode was utter crap. It's really awkward trying to kill someone when they have the Pistol, but you have an AR sometimes. They can clock a bunch of easy headshots, while only a few bullets from the AR will actually hit it's target.

OK, I have no idea what I'm even trying to say anymore, but the Pistol just seems to be the "goto" gun for almost every situation >_>

  • 03.04.2008 5:18 PM PDT
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Bapabolee:
Many think that the guys were just joking about the whole "double damage" thing. Bungie has yet to confirm or deny that they were joking.

You said it perfectly yourself, walking through Blood Gulch.
It's a large open map that has only a few obstructions. The mid-long range weapon dominates because it's working within it's suite.

And with a 3sk, a pistol can do some amazing things at close range if used properly. However, the pistol really shows it's worth at the mid-long range suite.

Halo: CE PC online was horrible, can't disagree with you on that in the slightest. Pistol > Assault Rifle at mid-long range.

I'm glad there's one gun that players can use to overcome the odds with if used the right way.
I hate it on Halo 2 / 3 when I am screwed, even while double shotting etc, just because the other guy has a Rocket or some other power weapon, and no matter what I do, there's no room to outplay them.

  • 03.04.2008 6:16 PM PDT

I only used walking through Blood Gulch because it's a classic example =P Valhalla/Coagulation are both wide, open maps, but people using the Battle Rifle can be put in their place with other weapons as well =P

But yeah, the Pistol in Halo 1.. just seems to be the "jack of all trades" weapons. Which isn't necissarily a good thing, and means that it pretty much beat any weapon in the field. Heck, it can even take out Banshees pretty easily given enough people use them and/or the pilot has low shields.

And let's face, it almost every single level in Halo 1 PC is pretty large, or at least gives you a lot of room. So the Pistol is over-used on almost every level. The only time I can recall the Pistol not being over-used is when I played this 8 vs. 8 CTF match on Derelict; I rayped with the AR. But, uhh, then again, the starting weapon was a Plasma Pistol =P

Really, it seems for any given situation, the Pistol is excellent for everything. And again, that isn't necissarily a good thing. Because of the Pistol, almost nobody feels the need to pickup any other weapons. And about the shotgun owning the Pistol at close range? Well, uhm, that isn't always the case, if the player using the Pistol is somewhat skilled.

I mean, how can the majority of the weapons, which are loose-hitting weapons, that have so much damn spread, they're nearly useless for killing anything at any range possibly compete with the accurate, deadly, Pistol that has a zoom?

*unloads entire clip of AR at close range on guy*
*only a few bullets hit*
*proceeds to melee*
*game doesn't register melee*
*guy with Pistol turns around*
*aims slightly in front of guy with Pistol, let's off a few shots*
*pish pish pish pish pish... pish*
*dead*

That's how it usually ends up =P

  • 03.04.2008 6:28 PM PDT
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Pistol vs Banshee was only in Halo: PC. (Although this is general in Halo: CE, I think this whole debate pertains more to things that were common in both games.)

Either you use the pistol to its full advantage or you get owned just because someone has a better weapon than you. I don't care what you all say, no one ignores rockets or sniper laying in front of them.

And as you so aptly restated what I've been saying this whole time:
And about the shotgun owning the Pistol at close range? Well, uhm, that isn't always the case, if the player using the Pistol is somewhat skilled.

Shotgun who is guarding a doorway will be much more effective than a pistol wielder guarding a doorway. Rockets taking out vehicles and clearing out rooms is much more effective than the pistol. Taking out specific people across a map is much more do-able with a sniper than a pistol right?

And if you're taking 6 shots to kill someone, you're not using the gun to its full potential, and would be "out pistoled" rather quickly.

  • 03.04.2008 7:40 PM PDT

I never said that the Pistol was a magical super-weapon. But if you do get in a fight with a guy that has a shotgun, and go through an awkward battle, or the guy with the Pistol has the range on you; he'll usually win.

My brain isn't working right now, so I'm not even sure what I'm saying anymore. All I'm trying to say here is that the Pistol can be a little over-powered, and it's kinda unfair to the other weapons because it's the jack of all trades >_<

  • 03.04.2008 8:15 PM PDT
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I never in any way, shape or form, implied that you said the pistol was a "magical super-weapon".

Shotgun has much greater range in Halo: CE than the sequals, if you get caught meeting a shotgun at close range, unless you get a three or four shot kill, you're done for. The first shot, if most of the pellets hit, will take down your shields and then some. The second shot, if a fair portion of the pellets hit, will either kill you or take you very very low in health.

For example:
In this situation, the pistol player stumbled upon a shotgun wielder at somewhat close range, and managed to three shot him. Now you have to ask yourself: what caused this guy to win?
-Did the shotgun wielder reveal himself too early, thereby letting the pistol wielder time to backpedal and start shooting?
-Did the shotgun wielder miss a critical shot, thereby giving the pistol wielder more time to live and fight?
-Did the pistol wielder simply react quick enough to target the shotgun wielder's head and landed three shots, the third being a headshot?

If the last option is the answer, then clearly, by means of skill, the pistol wielder took down his opponent.

The same thing can be said about the BR in Halo 2, and somewhat in Halo 3.
The BXR, RRBX, Double/Quad Shot, and BXB made this gun the versatile gun we needed to at least give an opportunity to come back and kill an opponent in Halo 2.

Your opinion is yours, and I can't say it's right or wrong, but I can say that I don't agree with it and think that it's the opinion of a more casual gamer, rather than a competitive one.

In all honesty, Halo: CE just feels right. Explosives are powerful. The pistol that shoots .50 caliber exploding bullets is the all around good weapon, versatile in almost every fashion. The AR is much more powerful than the H3 AR, and has much greater range, complementing the Pistol. The Plasma Rifle freezes opponents and tears down shields in an instant. The Sniper Rifle isn't too easy to use, nor too hard, and kills adversaries at the most extreme of ranges. The Needler and Plasma Pistol are near useless, and honestly, I couldn't care less. You can't jump off a six story wall and expect to keep on running. Melees were not overpowered. And most of all, it was just more fun than the rest.

  • 03.04.2008 8:47 PM PDT

Chances are I'd probably agree with what you have to say, but my brain is ready to die at any moment now. So I can't really interpret anything, or even make sense of my own posts right now >_<

I'll read it tommorow. Halo: CE is fine, just the damn Pistol was a tad over-used.

  • 03.04.2008 9:59 PM PDT

He says that you're both right. You were arguing for the same side. He also says that Halo CE multiplayer was more fun and felt right. In fact, I might play it later today on the PC.

  • 03.05.2008 6:35 AM PDT
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If they can see you to kill you, you can do the same, and you're responsible for being shot. Not them. Like a drive by shooting. You're not the victim. You weren't responsible enough to know your situation, your environment, and because of that you didn't see it coming, and even if you did, you didn't do anything to stop it from happening. You get it? You're not a victim. Come up with a counter-strategy and deal with it. Don't be so selfish you won't even save your own life.

  • 03.05.2008 8:44 AM PDT
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Posted by: Rhudebaker
If they can see you to kill you, you can do the same, and you're responsible for being shot. Not them. Like a drive by shooting. You're not the victim. You weren't responsible enough to know your situation, your environment, and because of that you didn't see it coming, and even if you did, you didn't do anything to stop it from happening. You get it? You're not a victim. Come up with a counter-strategy and deal with it. Don't be so selfish you won't even save your own life.

Who's claiming they're a victim? If the weapon's in the game, it's fair game, all the time. What some people are claiming is that said weapon is unbalanced, that's not an injustice, it's just what we believe to be a flaw in the design.

  • 03.05.2008 11:00 AM PDT
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Posted by: No1 But Some1
My previous post was far from an attack, I am simply explaining myself.
I'm not going to try and say it in a nice way, I'm going to tell you how it is.
Seems to me that's contradicting yourself considering how you put words in his mouth about how he thought Halo 3 was better because it had all those "extra" weapons, vehicles, etc. when he didn't, but that might have been someone else.

Botolf, correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe strategy precedes combat skills and thus a novice player should be rewarded for playing smarter. Clearly, you've mistaken Halo for a tactical shooter. Granted, it helps if you use brain power to play more intelligently, but I believe that skill is important. The best player uses his brain power and his ability to place his crosshairs over his opponent. Just see strategy and accuracy as two different skills to acquire in order to play well, because strategy is a skill in its own right. RTS is my favorite genre too, but I suck at RTS games. Perhaps it takes more skill to play a cerebral game that really forces you to think smarter than a mindless shooter that's just one big fragfest (not that Halo is necessarily a mindless shooter) which is all about who can get crosshairs onto a target quicker so it's more about reflexes and instinct?

Of course, there are those shooters that require strategy and accuracy, such as America's Army, a tactical combat simulator in which those with the best aim and brains can win, or Team Fortress 2, which isn't as realistic but requires plenty of skill, tactically and aim-wise?

  • 03.05.2008 5:06 PM PDT
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Er, no, I think shooting skill is a bit over-important in Halo 1, but I don't want it to be a tactical game.

  • 03.05.2008 6:19 PM PDT
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A little late there Master Kim. We already got over the whole "putting words in his mouth thing". I said he seemed to think along those lines. And just curious, how is that contradicting myself? Did I say he was putting words in my mouth in that quote? I don't think so...

Strategy is always a factor in any game you play. But in my opinion, an FPS should be won by the guy with the best shot, not with the best position.

If you spawn closer to rocks and immediately rush them, should you win the game just because you were strategical by running to rocks and owning them with the enormous blast radius?
I hope not.

AA is of course a shooter, albeit, strategy came in the way of knowing your opponents and how to handle certain situations. It's not like you're going to rush the middle of bridge to get an RPG or something.

  • 03.05.2008 6:21 PM PDT
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Coming out saying it's unbalanced is passive feelings of being a victim. Saying it's twice as strong as it's supposed to be is not. Saying it's flawed can be either one, depending on the intent of saying which it is. The intent is what I will judge you and your judgements on, not only the words you use.

  • 03.05.2008 10:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: Rhudebaker
Coming out saying it's unbalanced is passive feelings of being a victim. Saying it's twice as strong as it's supposed to be is not. Saying it's flawed can be either one, depending on the intent of saying which it is. The intent is what I will judge you and your judgements on, not only the words you use.

Er, no. I'm quite potent with the pistol, so this isn't me speaking from a position of a victim (I'd have to die via pistol far more often than I actually kill with it). Can't wrap your head around me actually doing well with the thing I say is unbalanced?

Posted by: Rhudebaker
The intent is what I will judge you and your judgements on, not only the words you use.

What, do you have a mind-reading ability I don't know about? You only have words to go on, dude, and trying to, in effect, psychoanalyze my mindset is not getting you anywhere near the truth ;)

[Edited on 03.05.2008 11:31 PM PST]

  • 03.05.2008 11:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: No1 But Some1
If you spawn closer to rocks and immediately rush them, should you win the game just because you were strategical by running to rocks and owning them with the enormous blast radius?
I hope not.

If it's a 1v1, rockets don't sound like a good thing to have on the map, imo. Having multiple players would eliminate most of this getting lucky with spawns, because you take away the unopposed and easy dash to a powerful weapon, you have to work for it now.

  • 03.05.2008 11:36 PM PDT
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Posted by: Botolf
Posted by: Rhudebaker
Coming out saying it's unbalanced is passive feelings of being a victim. Saying it's twice as strong as it's supposed to be is not. Saying it's flawed can be either one, depending on the intent of saying which it is. The intent is what I will judge you and your judgements on, not only the words you use.

Er, no. I'm quite potent with the pistol, so this isn't me speaking from a position of a victim (I'd have to die via pistol far more often than I actually kill with it). Can't wrap your head around me actually doing well with the thing I say is unbalanced?

Posted by: Rhudebaker
The intent is what I will judge you and your judgements on, not only the words you use.

What, do you have a mind-reading ability I don't know about? You only have words to go on, dude, and trying to, in effect, psychoanalyze my mindset is not getting you anywhere near the truth ;)


I haven't bothered reading your posts much. Your posts are directed to somebody else, and it's more of a debate. I don't need to get caught up in that.

I'm not accusing YOU of crying victim here, moreso the OP and those who are on that side of it mate. Getting owned by the pistol.. big deal.

There's a counter-strategy to everything material. Time to learn it. Like I said, the time you spend complaining about it is the time I spend training myself against it.

  • 03.06.2008 8:55 AM PDT