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Subject: Implosion

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Posted by: Shai Hulud
Posted by: aku
What the hell are you going on about, shai? The only argument I see is "know why these members attacked those members". Who cares? They're being pricks, they deserve to be banned. Why is that not the end of the story?


There is more to it than prickery. I asked a simple task. I think the general conception of them being "pricks" is only perpetuating things. It's not going to be the end of the story because it'll happen again. I think a lot of you know that it's going to happen again. If you think that there's no way to stop it, then shouldn't you (general, pointed towards active members of the Septagon) be accepting it as an inevitability and working towards not letting that kind of crap effect you? How come it caused such a ruckus this time around? That's a problem. If it were as simple as banning the arseholes and being done with it, then there shouldn't be any public outcry. There would have been no response to the nonconstructive criticism given unto those on the defensive side. We'd all be happy that they're banned.

But no, it got to you. You let it get to you because you don't understand why these things happen. They happened for the reasons that I gave you in my original post, and more which I don't know. How can I so soon? I don't catch everything, as I am human.

I'm merely trying to point out this problem to you. Some of you seem to not want to deal with it, but what will you think when it happens again?

Another thing that I'll point out is who these attackers were. Let's use the examples Reiginko and Impurity. These two, who were, yes, outwardly attacking active members and, yes, wrong to do so, are pretty old members. Not only that, they were both former Moderators, people who honestly know the community much better than a lot of people here. I wouldn't think that people such as these two would go out and attack a member merely because they got their jollies off doing so. I really do doubt that. They broke the rules, yes, and normally I would say that constitutes a banning. But these are not normal circumstances. They were not normal users on this site. The wrong things they did were the results of them letting their emotions come out too quickly. Why did they have those emotions in the first place? That's what I think we should strive to understand. And I do think it's possible.


But the rules are there for everyone. If you break the rules you have to live with the consequences of breaking those rules. Just because you have been here for longer than other people or because you are a moderator does not mean that you should be given special treatment all the time.

But I do agree that banning people is not going to solve the problem entirely. The bans might convince the people to not be so hot headed on the forums but it won't make them feel any differently. I still feel that the bans were needed to the people who got them because they broke the rules.

I've read through all your posts and come to the conclusion that what you want is for us to all sit down and discuss why they acted as they did. If thats the case then fair enough,we can discuss why it happened and try to come up with a solution to stop it from happening in the future. Because I think the majority of us here definitely don't want to see users being harassed and attacked.

  • 02.21.2008 11:45 AM PDT
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Posted by: Death v1
Posted by: Ciaran
Define 'varied'. Many of these posters can't even spell half a sentence. We're plagued by 'I can haz recon' with half page locks being a daily sight. I welcome new sensible posters, I really do, but I have yet to see many of them. I'd say there is about the same amount sensible posters as there used to be, despite the overall population growth, as many have been driven away. This relates to my last point.

Do i really need to define varied? I mean different people, as opposed to the same core group of individuals. The reason we have recon threads now and not before, is because bungie screwed that one up. Was there any special giveaways like that for halo 2, for halo 1, for anything else? Something where peoples accounts were hacked for an armor(sorry to hear about that ash). I dont think so. How is even a topic for discussion in here, when it is far beyond any community control? Bungie/microsoft basically put idiot chum in the water.... and guess what? Idiots came. I dont see this as a downfall of the community, simply a bad decision by bungie and this shouldve been a clear consequence when they started giving it away, letting people flaunt it, etc.

Of course idiots are going to ask for it when people like trigger are making youtube videos bragging about it.


This has happened in every individual forum on bungie.net…

Your random text generator is top notch by the way.

I was referring to subforums and I think most people got that. For reference see the optimatch forum, h2 forum, etc. which all had a small core of posters which has drastically changed with the release of halo 3.

1. These two areas have their sad little elitist cliques who lament about how much fun it was back in the day when the whole group was together and they were the "big group" on Bungie. Everyone who asked for their groups to be mentioned in the OPs list are the exact types I'm referring to. ZOMG a list of important groups and WE'RE not on it?

I don't like you simply defining people who miss a better situation as 'elitists', and this is what we are dealing with; a situation. The Septagon made itself from the sprit that it was. The same people are there, the same opinions, but we can't operate in the environment I explained above.

Did I define it as people who miss a better situation? No. Dont put words in my mouth again.

Situations change, you aren't going to stop the influx of over a million people by making a dozen whiny threads about 2004. That isnt how the world works. All these threads do is serve as a way for people to say, dude, youre cool, you were from then, I remember you, pat each other on the back and nothing more. What good does this do? NONE. You talk about recon armor threads being a repetative nuisance, but what do you think these threads are? The exact same thing, except with better grammar, and people kissing each others asses.


I'm glad you read my posts, because that's exactly what I'm suggesting. This is by no means an 'old timer' thread. I am not lamenting with a bottle of brandy how the old days were. What I'm doing is exploring then, now, the reasons why changes have occurred and what we should do in the future to continue enjoying the Seventh Column. And funnily enough, it’s the thing you’ve just come around to in your post, though you seem to present it as if we’re all missing the point.
Edit- Formatting.

Many people are, go look at the lamenters.

The point is this thread isnt needed. You are attempting to address the problem of change. Change wont be stopped, you cant do anything about it, so why dont you go with your own advice and simply hold on, instead of making threads addressing an issue which has been addressed hundreds of times? The fact is that its pointless. The site will change, people will come, people will go, and this thread, wont matter in a week, nor will any of the lamenting ones(beyond the people who are sad about their cliquey buddies being banned).

Again, the best thing to do is acknowledge the fact that there isnt anything you can do, stop making threads like this one, like the lamenting ones, and get back to posting about things you can change, start posting about things which interest yourself and others, and get back to being constructive individuals, instead of a bunch of people talking about something that will never amount to anything.


I was going to respond to each separate reply as I had before, until I came across the second to last paragraph. My jaw dropped- you obviously have not read, or at least understood my OP. Read it again and pay attention to the last paragraph whilst keeping your second to last in mind. You have decided to categorize, just as you did with these ‘elitists’ and ‘varied members’, missing the point of this thread entirely.

  • 02.21.2008 11:47 AM PDT
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I'm still not getting the point... what public outcry? Why is the event special in any way? I'm not getting it at all. Member who has a habit of being somewhat irritating acts somewhat irritating. Other members make fun of first member. They take it too far. They get banned.

Just another day on the internet. What am I missing here?

  • 02.21.2008 11:49 AM PDT
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This is the 1st thread that was well explained and had LOGIC. Ttat's something you don't see here very often, that alone should let it sstay open for business.

This is a problem and we can at least explore ideas about it.

[Edited on 02.21.2008 11:52 AM PST]

  • 02.21.2008 11:51 AM PDT

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

Before this thread is [fail]ed by someone posting something stupid, I just want to add my two cents - Where their worth.

I've only been here for around 3 - 4 years now. Agreed, the forum has gone through ridiculously large changes - some for good, some for bad. I remember the relatively old days when posting was about conversation. I remember when this was a forum first, and site second. Bungie had it right. We were brought here with the thrill and promise to converge on a topic unilaterally. When Halo launched, things of course changed. Duh. That’s going to happen. Technology moves forward and an old forum needs to be updated to keep up with the new trends.

I wont regale you with “how it once was” stories, but think about anything you’ve been a part of for many years.

Remember the launch of Halo: CE? Remember how you found a good group to play with at first? Remember how that group got too big, so you and a few other split to create your own group? Remember how your new group got too big… and so on… See the correlation?

The players changed too! In Halo: CE you had an average age group that played that game. It took time to figure out the kinks, mod the levels, glitch the boards. But when the age of XBL came out, anyone could (and did) jump online and get involved in the community. But then again, that was the point.

Far be it from me to flame anyone’s opinions here, but it is what it is.

A person is smart. People are idiots.
You can’t say it better, but you can do something about it.

I know that there are most of you reading who could care less about the integrity of the forums. I, for one, do. I want to see these forums go back to the golden days as much as anyone, but we simply can’t. We have to learn to accept ignorance, teach responsibility, and challenge those who’d rather just post – ZOMG! Check out me sticking this guy in the crotch!!!

Come on. The only way to get these forums fixed, if they even need to be, is to start at the bottom and work our way up. If you see someone being dumb, call them on it and show them how to behave.

Think of it this way… you can train them as your minions! OH FUN!

Just don't give up.

Anyway… that was my two cents. Take it for what it’s worth.

- Hal

  • 02.21.2008 12:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

I removed this post to avoid further derailment of this thread's topic of conversation. Feel free to PM me if you're that curious to know what it said.

[Edited on 02.21.2008 4:30 PM PST]

  • 02.21.2008 12:17 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Posted by: aku
I'm still not getting the point... what public outcry? Why is the event special in any way? I'm not getting it at all. Member who has a habit of being somewhat irritating acts somewhat irritating. Other members make fun of first member. They take it too far. They get banned.

Just another day on the internet. What am I missing here?


Aku, I now see your side of things. The way you think about things is good enough for the community, so what I have said need not apply to you. You are right, in a sense, in that this is not special. As I said, it happened before. You take things as I said they should be taken if this wasn't a big deal. Just another day on the internet, as you say.

However, the emotions felt by some show that others do not agree, and in not agreeing, there is something that will need to be done. I'm merely trying to show them what I think of how to do something about it.

  • 02.21.2008 12:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: Death v1
Posted by: Ciaran


I'm glad you read my posts, because that's exactly what I'm suggesting. This is by no means an 'old timer' thread. I am not lamenting with a bottle of brandy how the old days were. What I'm doing is exploring then, now, the reasons why changes have occurred and what we should do in the future to continue enjoying the Seventh Column. And funnily enough, it’s the thing you’ve just come around to in your post, though you seem to present it as if we’re all missing the point.
Edit- Formatting.

Many people are, go look at the lamenters.

The point is this thread isnt needed. You are attempting to address the problem of change. Change wont be stopped, you cant do anything about it, so why dont you go with your own advice and simply hold on, instead of making threads addressing an issue which has been addressed hundreds of times? The fact is that its pointless. The site will change, people will come, people will go, and this thread, wont matter in a week, nor will any of the lamenting ones(beyond the people who are sad about their cliquey buddies being banned).


I was going to respond to each separate reply as I had before, until I came across the second to last paragraph. My jaw dropped- you obviously have not read, or at least understood my OP. Read it again and pay attention to the last paragraph whilst keeping your second to last in mind. You have decided to categorize, just as you did with these ‘elitists’ and ‘varied members’, missing the point of this thread entirely.


With the fact that I was referring to your comments as your addressing of change, would you care to point out why your jaw dropped? It would really be great.


My jaw dropped, because the two of us have the same conclusions about the state of the community, yet you seem to think I'm talking about a subject that's completely different. How am I supposed to reason with you if you are oblivious to the initial purpose of this thread anyway?

How about this, I'll go back and explain everything in the paragraph.

1. Many people are, go look at the lamenters.

Read through the thread and you will see many people not catching the point, I would hope this is beyond requiring explanation


I’d like to have two, if any examples.

2. You are attempting to address the problem of change.
3. Change wont be stopped, you cant do anything about it, so why dont you go with your own advice and simply hold on, instead of making threads addressing an issue which has been addressed hundreds of times?
Address change? No I am not. This is what really gets me; the two of us have the same ideas. I know that change cannot be stopped, yet you seem to think I don’t. If you had actually understood the last paragraph of my OP then you would see that I am predicting the movement of change, and giving people hope that the next few years will bring us a far better Bungie.net.

Legitimate question. What has this thread accomplished, or what will it accomplish to improve the situation? Nothing that I've seen.

4. The fact is that its pointless.

Are you saying that all the discussions and people’s opinions in this thread are pointless? Perhaps now that I’ve corrected your misguided definition of the purpose of this thread you will realize it’s something beyond what you’ve gone around in circles with for the past two pages.
What I am saying is that, once it clicks- then I will gladly discuss what needs to be done or left alone. Until then...

  • 02.21.2008 12:49 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

To Foman-

Don't flatter yourself by thinking that I single you out. You want my honest opinion of you? I'll give it.

I think that you say too much. Not because I'm too lazy to read the post, but because much of what you say can be boiled down into a mere paragraph. You prattle, and maybe that's a result of your profession. That, in of itself, is a fine habbit. I merely find it tiresome.

Technicalities aside, Foman, I do like most of what you usually have to say. I do not include you amongst the brown-nosers of whom I spoke (I hope that shows you why I didn't name names... I'll explain more of this later on). Although those of the Jumpers and TFM may appear to be culprits (yeah, sometimes they are), and although I am a member of both groups, rarely am I that associated with their actions or in agreement of what they think about some of the users here. They may not like you, but that doesn't mean I don't like you. I honestly don't really care about you, and that's it. I do find you a valuable member of the community as you have demonstrated your ability to, for the most part, think clearly.

And more about not naming names. I have reasons for not doing so, even though those that read this who were involved know very well whom I'm talking about. Let's take you, for example, since you've singled yourself out. You think I'm talking about you specifically as one of the brown nosers or those who overreacted to attacks by letting them get to their core beings. As I have said, I don't consider you to be a brown-noser. You did, however, let what Impurity said get to you, at least you made it appear so (many thought you actually left the forums after that, which you obviously didn't). This, to me, is a result of a sort of arrogance or ego. In you, I consider it to be minor, but it still is what it appeared to be.

Now, I didn't name names because I didn't want people to think that I'm pointing the stick at you, in this case. Honestly, I wouldn't point the stick at you. What does that solve? I address people generally because I think everyone can learn from this. I don't want specific people to know what I think because I don't think that on a personal level, anything constructive can come out of it. This is mirrored in the fact that you took what I said, yet again, too personally. I wasn't talking to you alone, Foman.

I'm not going address the rest of what you talked about (accusations of my character, et cetera) here, as they should not be discussed in this thread. I don't really mind that you think I'm arrogant, as I'll admit that my general bitterness is easily seen as such. If you really wish to discuss it, send me a PM.

And that is all I'll put in towards you. I'm glad you have been able to get what I'm saying, and I apologize for continuing the derailment of my thread. I just wanted to quickly give you a response, and tell you why I never wanted to single you out. I hope you understand that.

[Edited on 02.21.2008 1:01 PM PST]

  • 02.21.2008 12:52 PM PDT

Codeword is ... "codeword". Doh!
Also, now, Alliance FTW!

Posted by: Shai Hulud

Anyway, the problem has its roots in jealousy. I'm going to try to not name names here, but the posts that singled out a few members a few days ago were, yes, a result of a kind of jealousy, on both sides. The attackers were jealous of those they attacked because those they attacked have a sort of blissful ignorance regarding the community. That ignorance is fine, and is merely the result of not having existed in the older days that the attackers remember. Does this discredit the attackers? No, I personally don't think so. I myself have some of this jealousy, but I wouldn't say that says anything about my character. It's natural to have it. It gives us a goal, and life without goals is meaningless.

Those that were attacked have several forms of jealousy as well. Specifically, the users that were singled out were jealous for power. Many of them want Modship. This is debatable, but it's what I, and many others, do actually think. They brown-nose, and their goody-two-shoes characters were all just acts. The attackers had reason to single them out for the sole purpose of taking them down a few pegs. Chipping away at some of the arrogant shell that they hide behind. You can debate this with me all you want, but you won't change my mind. I saw that shield of arrogance every time I spoke out against something that Bungie did that I had ethical disagreements with. I know its there.

<snipping to focus attention>

Many people on these forums need to be taught a lesson of humility.



I am very new to these forums (a couple of months) so in a way I have new eyes for what sounds like a long history of experience here. I am curious what specific outcome you want, Shai? To be heard? To have people discuss and debate your conclusions? To have people agree with your conclusions? To agree to disagree?

I think, by the way, you have successfully been heard on here. The discussion and debate, well, it looks like that spirals downward very quickly without clarity about what is being discussed. And unless that discussion happens, getting people to agree won't be easy unless they already do.

  • 02.21.2008 2:18 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

It seems like they do, and I've decided not to argue anymore based on that (whether or not they think they disagree with me). The argument grew tiresome, I realize, but I continued it as long as I did to see what pages people we're on. I think we're on more of the same page than others realize.

  • 02.21.2008 2:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: Death v1
Posted by: wHo iZ XtrEmE
Anyone who says attackers shouldn't be banned is an idiot. Also blacklisting is what is given to them to try and teach them a lesson. We'll have to see what happens when they come back. If they resume there SPAM and attacks, well they'll just be gone for another vacation.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont think he is saying they shouldnt be banned. He is saying the mods should get a better understanding of why the attacks took place so that they can better moderate the forums and stop this type of thing from happening before it starts.

BTW, sorry for the double post


You right death.

  • 02.21.2008 2:35 PM PDT

when i first joined the bungie community, i was here just for halo 3, however, the community has sorta grown on me, even when the halo hype dies down ill still be here, supporting bungie in anyway i can and looking foward to thier next game

  • 02.21.2008 2:47 PM PDT
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Posted by: Death v1
The difference between us isnt any particular part of the thread, but instead its existance. All this thread does is simply serve as another place for this crap to get attention, which it shouldn't be getting any. What is the best way to propagate somethings existance in out thoughts? By continually talking about it. Thats my issue with this thread


I understand in a general manner what you mean, though I don't think that we're really going to go anywhere with that prerogative. This thread is almost specific to the last few days. If we have no closure and no discussion then we cannot expect to go anywhere. The Septagon needed somewhere to let it go, within reason. It's certainly far more positive and effective than your suggestions.
My initial point in this post has not been raised before I believe, or at least given credit, so it definitely deserves some presentation. I've actually given some people direction. You're giving us the option to simply let it be. You're obviously intelligent, so why not use that to construct upon what others have said rather than forming petty complaints about the existence of the thread, achieving... nothing.

  • 02.21.2008 3:10 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

*facepalm*

I hate these threads. You guys talk and talk about some weird perception of this community, and not only do you hardly ever even define the problem correctly, but the solutions you come up with almost never would solve even the made up problems you talk about, let alone the actual problems you neglect to address!

Guys, as user ID #1, I feel it is my duty to infom many of you that you are full of it. You have a very selective memory.

There were no "good old days". The site didn't even have forums until 2002 (I know, I wrote them). At that point, there were less than a few hundred regularly active users. HBO was more popular than we were. As Halo 2 news picked up steam, things started to break down - we didn't have enough mods, we had crappy tools, the perf of the site was bad, things were hard to find, a bunch of new users hit the site because of the Halo 2 announcement, etc.

Hmm... sound familiar? The only difference is for you to add a few zeros onto the end of the population counts after each Halo game.

So, what changed? The problems haven't changed, they just seem way worse because many more people are experiencing them (and thus complaining about them). Now, I can't believe I'm saying this, but you people should pay attention to what stosh said: instead of ignoring the problems of growth, we're attacking them head on. We've worked hard on making sure things are easy to find (and will continue working on it). People whining about the forums aren't using the Top Topics functionality. Pretty much every single thread of ANY importance is listed on that page - if you ignored all other threads, you'd probably think the forums were golden.

About the only thing that I think is really lacking still is the groups - they lack a defined purpose, which has caused them to languish in obscurity. They used to be for helping gather groups of people for Halo LAN parties. With XBox Live, that purpose is superfluous... and we'll be working to correct that problem in the future.

In the end, the community is what you make of it. And considering that you can create your own forum index page with the bookmark feature, it can be anything you want.

Stop focusing on nebulous things you can't change, like the population of this site. Focus on using the tools you have to improve your experience. Report bad threads. Stop making stupid polls. Stay on topic. Play nice. Or, make a group and make your own rules.

Above all, stop acting like you are not part of the problem or solution. Each user of this site is both part of the problem and part of the solution. Focus on the solution for a change.

  • 02.21.2008 3:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: Primum Agmen
A tosser is the same as a wanker. To toss oneself off is to fondle the trouser weasel.


Achronos

Joe Staten

Thank you Acrhonos. I think this should be closed now.

  • 02.21.2008 3:17 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
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"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Saying something irrational and not based on past evidence does not make it true.

Posted by: MCs Brother
These forums will be dead within a year. It's practically inevitable.

  • 02.21.2008 3:19 PM PDT

Nice response Achronos.

  • 02.21.2008 3:20 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

No, it IS his job. Moderators are trusted with interpreting the rules. And as I banned the people in the thread in question, my interpretation was "one or two posts of good natured parody is fine, 3 pages and multiple other threads is not." A joke at your expense is part of posting in the forums. But continued harassment and derailment of a thread is NOT. And let me point out CrypticGuardian did EXACTLY what everyone should do - he PM'd a mod, reported it, and NEVER posted in that thread again. He didn't create a new thread complaining about it, he didn't try and battle the harassment publically. He just shrugged and filed a complaint, and went on with his life.

Everybody could learn a lesson from that.

And Zag, he's not saying that there isn't anything wrong with the harassment. He's saying that the moderators should try to find out why the harassment is occuring. And while this is true, they don't need to know why it is happening to issue warnings and bans. That's why we usually just lock threads and not delete them. The thread in question was actually an exception, not the rule, as it was deleted.

Posted by: SS_Zag1
Shai, you told Evilcam to think about why they might be getting harassed. Who says he hasn't? It's not his job to go "Oh, ok, he deserves it. Go right ahead."

It's his job to stop it, regardless of what he thinks. There are rules on this website (Again, the PLAY NICE RULE) which a lot of people have been breaking, and it's actually doing quite a bit of damage to some people. It's not just harmless fun or silly jokes. There are people who are being downright mean to certain members, and what's worse is that they think they're doing nothing wrong.

Clearly you've shown you think there's nothing wrong with harassing members. I don't know where you were raised.

  • 02.21.2008 3:33 PM PDT
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A J A Q
C A C U
E C E E
...K.....E
..........N

... I can't believe I just read all 5 pages of this...


%^&*, I must be bored.


Well, I was going to post something constructive, but really don't know what to say now.


Too many people that don't think.

[Edited on 02.21.2008 3:35 PM PST]

  • 02.21.2008 3:33 PM PDT

It IS as bad as you think and they ARE out to get you.

I'm pretty sure this is when we all stop arguing, agree that there is room for improvement, and get to it.

  • 02.21.2008 3:37 PM PDT

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Posted by: Achronos
And while this is true, they don't need to know why it is happening to issue warnings and bans. That's why we usually just lock threads and not delete them.

Well, that was kind of my point...

Eh, back to learning.

  • 02.21.2008 3:44 PM PDT