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  • Subject: Bungie, Please Give Us Additional Stat Tracking

http://halo3.junk.ws/
http://halocharts.com/

Why should Bungie do this when other sites already do? Google is your friend.

[Edited on 02.22.2008 11:52 AM PST]

  • 02.22.2008 11:52 AM PDT

It'd be redundant. What's the point of having more in-depth stats in two places? Would you rather have Bungie focus more on stats and less on releasing new maps and improving features?

  • 02.22.2008 12:00 PM PDT

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

Posted by: Styles P
I would suggest moving this to the Community Forum seeing as how this has little to do with matchmaking but more about this site.

I do agree with you though, those stats are extremely important and I can't see why they didn't make it into Halo 3.


the optimatch forums are open to discuss halo matchmaking and online gametypes. my suggestion involves adding particular features to online mm that will affect our experience playing each and every playlist available in h3 mm.

since optimatch is the place to discuss halo online mm, and since i am discussing potential halo online mm features, this seems like the appropriate location for this thread.

  • 02.22.2008 12:00 PM PDT
Subject: Bungie, Please Give Us Additional Stat Tracking

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

when i view player stats in the post game lobby and on bnet i notice a glaring omission: there are no stats involving shots fired. in halo 2, in both the post game lobby and on bnet, we could view 3 important stats for each player, shots fired, shots landed, and hit percentage. for some reason, these stats are not available for h3, but i think that they should be.

providing players with shots fired statistics would be a great addition to h3 stat tracking. in addition to allowing players to track and compare accuracy, it allows us to see how many times weare hitting enemies. we currently have access to our assists, but hitting enemies, even if we do not get an assist or the kill, is an important contribution to our team's success.

here are some of the benefits of of adding each of the 3 stats to the post game lobby and to bnet:

shots fired:
this gives us a brief look at how actively involved in combat a given player is. if a player has a really low shots fired count, it may indicate that he is spending to little time engaged in battles and is placing his team at a disadvantage.

shots hit:
this gives us a glimpse of how helpful a player is to his team's slaying. if a player has many shots hit, then he is damaging the heck out of his opponents, and helping his team earn assists and kills. landing many shots means that you are harming the opponent regularly, which is almost always of importance. this also helps us track a player's skills at using converging fire (also called team shooting).

hit percentage:
this shows us how accurate a marksman is. if his hit percentage is low, then we can consider whether he should adjust his sensitivity. and, this statistic has got 'bragging rights' written all over it since nearly all players would like to have great accuracy.

as far as i can imagine, there are many benefits to making these statistics available to us. users will enjoy being able to see them, it is just that simple. and, the data behind these stats are already being collected on each player in each and every game. the only negative aspect of adding access to these stats involves resource allocation. bungie would have to pay to sort these stats and to make the changes to the post game lobby and to bnet.

BUNGIE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE GIVE US ACCESS TO THESE IMPORTANT STATISTICS!

  • 02.22.2008 11:41 AM PDT

I guess you'll never understand my logic then. Bungie releases feeds of our stats for any third party site that wants them to manipulate and create stats. What I don't understand is why you also need them on this site. Most people don't care to delve into stats that much, but for those of us who are there are multiple sites that offer that. So again, it'd be redundant for Bungie to do the same on their site because those that want the in depth sites still manage to find them. As for having them on the post-game report, it would still take up the programmers' time, not the site developers. I also don't see it adding depth, and if it is added it should be a low priority.

  • 02.22.2008 12:21 PM PDT
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Talk to the Soul | ~B.B. | Know Your Duardo |  | Hero | ISFJ | 77135 | 94371

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."

These would very cool to have, however, I don't think they're that important.

  • 02.22.2008 12:27 PM PDT

"I win, you suck. You win, you cheated. We tie, you cheated and you suck."

Halo-themed joke topic thread:
Me: Vaderhater
Vaderhater: WHAT THE HELL IS THIS?

Posted by: XanaduDestroysU
http://halo3.junk.ws/
http://halocharts.com/

Why should Bungie do this when other sites already do? Google is your friend.

I like the halocharts....very cool =D

  • 02.22.2008 12:39 PM PDT
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Posted by: sesquipadelian
...shots fired, shots landed, and hit percentage. for some reason, these stats are not available for h3, but i think that they should be.

providing players with shots fired statistics would be a great addition to h3 stat tracking. in addition to allowing players to track and compare accuracy, it allows us to see how many times weare hitting enemies. we currently have access to our assists, but hitting enemies, even if we do not get an assist or the kill, is an important contribution to our team's success.


I agree somewhat. I too was surprised, confused and a little disappointed to find that these stats were not inlcuded in the carnage report for H3. However, i think that although the 3 stats in question are useful, they are not as useful as one particular statistic which you can find in another fantastic 360 game; Shadowrun.

Damage Percentage. This statistic is the best and most useful statistic around and would be the most telling statistic in the post game carnage report were it included.

What is Damage Percentage?

Damage percentage (not surprisingly) offers you a value in percentage terms and in a typical Team Slayer game on H3 might range from 8% to 15% amongst players. But what does the value represent? Well, basically it tells you how much damage you have dealt to any players on the other team which resulted in a member of the other team dying.

As you know, it takes 4 shots from a BR to kill someone. Suppose that Player A, Player B and Player C are all shooting at Player X. If PLayer A hits 2 shots, Player B hits 1 shot and Player C hits 1 shot before Player X dies, they will recive the following additions to their damage % statistic:

Player A: 0.50%
Player B: 0.25%
Player C: 0.25%

Why would this statistic be better than "Shots Fired"/ "Shots Hit/ "Accuracy"?

Because it is indiscriminate of the weapon you are using. A player may be getting lots of kills with the Sword, Grenades, Beatdowns, Rockets, Shotgun, Hammer, Mauler, Laser or Sniper (no shots and minimal shots required for a kill) and so it would be unfair of the "Shots Fired" and "Shots Hit" statistic to imply that the player has not been as positivley active in a match. Adversely, players using automatic weapons will recieve a great number of shots fired but perhaps have not been as helpful during the game because their weapons have been having little effect on the enemies. You also have to look at players would like to use surpressive fire to keep enemies trapped in areas. This would also flatter these players with the "Shots Fired" statistic when perhaps they are less influencial than players who are acctually shooting and killing the other team. Supressive fire also creates a problem with the "Accuracy" statistic because even though they are helping their team by using this very common tactic, their "Accuracy" will suffer when perhaps they are very accurate at hitting their enemies.

The Damage % statistic is better because it simply looks at how much damage was dealt by the player during the match (to enemies that died as a result) and is therefore not unfair to any players who use more powerful weapons nor does it flatter players who are firing lots of less powerful, less accurate bullets.

Why is Damage % better than "Kills"/ "Assists"?

Your kills in a game does not fully represent your positive activity because it completely disregards the fact that your teammates help to take down the enemies you have weakened and that you help to take down enemies your teammates have weakened. Therefore, players are often flattered with many kills when they have just been picking off weakened players throughout the match. And of course, it is unfair to players who have weakened many players but have not killed many.

Now, assists. Assists is a nearly POINTLESS statistic that only gives you information which is misrepresented by the name "Assists". Why? Because assists do not tell you much, only that a player on the other team was killed when one member of your team took that player's shields down and the other killed him. It does not tell you who actually "assisted" whom. Suppose a below-average player is persistently charging at the enemies and is only good enough to get a melee on them before he is left shieldless and definitely about to die because of his subsequent inability to kill his opponents due to a lack of accuracy. Then suppose that you help this player (or "assist" this player) by killing his opponents before he dies.

Now, even though the death of the opponent is only as a result of your own awareness, accuracy and good positioning, your teammate will be rewarded with an assist when in fact you "assisted" him because if you had not been present, he would have died and your opponent would not.

You also need to think about how the game calculates the number of assists to award players. It requires one player to completely remove an enemy's shields and the other to kill the enemy. What about if you leave them with 1% of their shields? What about if you are constantly hitting them with 2 shots from your BR? Do you get anything for it? No.

Damage % addresses these problems because it shows how helpful you were in damaging players without you needing to make any assumptions.

Although more statistics still would have a purpose and would be nice to take a looks at, i feel that Damage % would be the most important and most looked-at statistic of them all. In Shadowrun, Damage % required enemies to die but why not have it so that it does not? i.e. It calculates the damage you have inflicted on any opponent throughout the match.


Another thought...

Why not have something similar to Damage % that looks at a players help with objectives. At the moment, just as an example, a player can run the flag 99% of the way back to the score point, die, have his teammate pick up the flag and score. The teammate will then get the flags captured point on the carnage report and possibly MVP as well. Is that fair? I don't think so.

So why isn't there a statistic which calculates how far you have run with the flag and which puts it into % terms. i.e. you carry the flag right up to the score point and you get 100% "Objective Aid %" and then you carry the next flag half way back. At the end of the game your "Objective Aid %" would be 150%. Just a thought.

  • 02.22.2008 12:45 PM PDT

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

redundant? how?

i will discuss how i would use this feature to make this clear. after each and every game of h3 mm i check out the stats in the post game lobby. i look at kills, deaths, and assists. i would then look at the 3 stats that i have mentioned. i would pay particularly close attention to shots hit of myself and my teammates.

i would personally LOVE to have this feature as a way to talk trash to my friends. i happen to play the majority of my matches with friends and we are in the same room (or couple of rooms). one of my friends is terrible at halo, and he is terrible in many ways. the way that he is most frustrating is that he seems to hate to press the R trigger. it seems that he is always looking at enemies but not shooting them. when i see this, i see him giving the other team a 4v3 advantage. in h2, we could look at stats in the post game lobby and see that he shot his gun about 500 times less than we did (in br starts matches), and that he hit enemies only about 00 times. we could then show him how his stats in general stunk as a result of him refusing to shoot his gun at bad guys.

right now, i can only scream "shoot!" at him when i happen to look at his screen and see enemies whom he chooses to stare at. being able to point out that he rarely hurts the bad guys in the post game lobby would be a great addition to my gaming experience (but maybe not to his).

Posted by: XanaduDestroysU
It'd be redundant. What's the point of having more in-depth stats in two places? Would you rather have Bungie focus more on stats and less on releasing new maps and improving features?

  • 02.22.2008 12:48 PM PDT

If anything is redundant it's the other sites posting Halo 2 and 3 statistics since bnet is the grand central station for Halo stats.

Is it really? Then why is it that you're petitioning for BNET to add stats that other sites *already have*?

  • 02.22.2008 12:51 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: sesquipadelian
the optimatch forums are open to discuss halo matchmaking and online gametypes. my suggestion involves adding particular features to online mm that will affect our experience playing each and every playlist available in h3 mm.

since optimatch is the place to discuss halo online mm, and since i am discussing potential halo online mm features, this seems like the appropriate location for this thread.
The thread has already been moved, so I presume you realize that it was in the wrong forum. But just for future reference and clarity -- Optimatch Forum is meant for discussion of the particulars of Matchmaking playlists, not additions or changes to the Bungie.net website.

On the main topic, I have to say that I disagree about the importance of these statistics. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea, but I definitely disagree about their necessity.

My own personal opinion is that statistics-tracking has ruined the fun of this game.

For example, I was ashamed yesterday when a player in my own party began making fun of another player because of his low rank and statistics. The guy kept saying "I just usually play social games, that's all" and yet the player in my party continued to harass him in very degrading ways until the game started (he was on the other team). Surely, that kind of behavior is not fun for the victim of the harassment.

As another example, I sometimes (but not always) find myself taking actions in game or not taking them because I am keeping my statistics in mind. For example, towards the end of a game the other day, I realized that I had not gotten many kills but I had died several times that game. In order to get my K/D ratio higher, I grabbed a BR and started to go for kills rather than helping my teammate who was attempting to steal the other team's flag. After a moment I realized how selfish I was being and grabbed a Mongoose to help my teammate. But I have seen many instances of players failing to act like a team and instead going for improvement of their personal statistics. The best and most common example I can think of is the guy who grabs a sniper rifle on an objective game and then hides in a safe spot -- sniping away at people and rarely dying, but doing little to help the team obtain the objective, whatever it may be.

In my opinion, statistics tracking has affected not just the trash talk that occurs pregame, but also the way the game itself is played. With too much focus on personal statistics, players far too often no longer act as a team except in team slayer games. I have had to go to great lengths to find a small core group of XBL friends who will sacrifice themselves for the good of the team when necessary.

At any rate, all I'm doing is trying to outline the reasons why I am not too excited to see any more statistics tracked on BNet. This idea is fine, and I sure wouldn't complain if it was implemented, but I really think that there are more important things that the web team could be working on to improve this website.

[Edited on 02.22.2008 1:01 PM PST]

  • 02.22.2008 12:58 PM PDT

Because:

1. Most players don't care for every stat imaginable on the games they play. There are plenty that do (me included) and for us a handful of third party sites have taken it upon themselves to make us happy.

2. What's the point? Fun. They certainly aren't competing with Bungie, as some of these sites have been featured on BNET's news. These sites are here to satisfy our need for stats and each one does it a little differently. You can one, all, or none of them. That's what is great about the internet.

3. Halo3.junk.ws has over 13,000 members, HaloCharts has almost 15,000. Clearly there is a point to these sites. Even if Bungie adds the features you want, this site still won't track everything that players out there have decided is important.

4. In almost every way bungie.net is a mecca to Halo 3. But looking at the numbers, it's not superior in stat tracking. You can't deny that. It's not a bad thing either, but it's a fact.

  • 02.22.2008 1:07 PM PDT

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

here are my thoughts about some of your points:
1) the thread was moved, and i am not upset about that, but i still feel that it is a natural fit for the optimatch forum. i am asking for stats to be available in the post game lobby, so the proposed changes would literally affect every single h3 mm game. since i am askinf for a feture to be added to h3 mm settings, it seems appropriate for the thread to appear in optimatch. and, i am asking for an updated feature to be added to bnet, so this thread fits nicely into this forum as well.

2) i have not claimed that they are necessary, but that they would be a great addition.

3) this is all your fault. match statistics are simply bits of information, and how you choose to allow knowledge of this information to affect your play and your attitude about play is up to you and you alone. if you wish to allow knowledge of various stats to alter how you view playing halo and alter how you go about playing halo, then that is your choice, and it is clearly not the case that all players will respond to knowledge of this information the same way that you have. i personally do not alter my style of play based on my stats that appear if i dig around on my h3 stats page.

3a) people in mm will be jerks, and there are ways for nonjerks to deal with that (feedback). that is and will be the case no matter what. if people wish to talk smack in the post game lobby about a player's shots fired statistics, then he is free to do so, and all of us are free to pay such people no mind, and we can simply leave the post game lobby to avoid the verbal assaults.

that some people will act like jerks by looking at the shots fired statistics does not seem like a serious negative consequence of adding them to the post game lobby.

3b) again, this is on you. if you choose to place high importance of stats that are kept over the life of your gamertag, then have at it. but, the stats that i have asked to be added to the post game lobby and to bnet are not stats that will be adjusted over the life of an account, but would simply appear in the match results for particular games.

4) you are right to point out that some people will alter how they play halo and how they view halo matches as a result of knowing various statistics, but i do not see this as a serious problem. if people do not want to allow knowledge of shots fired stats to create problems, then they can choose not to let it create problems, it is just that simple. and, all of the players who enjoy looking at halo stats can get as much enjoyment out of shots fired statistics as they would like.

5) i am glad that you have not taken the stats that adding shots fired stats as i have suggested should not be done based on the negative consequences that you have shared. i agree that some players will realize some negative consequences by making this information accessible, but i think that these costs are by far outweighed by the benefits of adding shots fired stats to the post game lobby and to bnet. i want the stats in bnet, but i want them in the post game lobby even more. since the data are already collected for every single h3 mm match played, i hope that it will not be too hard for bungie to sort this information and make it available to us in mm.
Posted by: x Foman123 x
Posted by: sesquipadelian
the optimatch forums are open to discuss halo matchmaking and online gametypes. my suggestion involves adding particular features to online mm that will affect our experience playing each and every playlist available in h3 mm.

since optimatch is the place to discuss halo online mm, and since i am discussing potential halo online mm features, this seems like the appropriate location for this thread.

1) The thread has already been moved, so I presume you realize that it was in the wrong forum. But just for future reference and clarity -- Optimatch Forum is meant for discussion of the particulars of Matchmaking playlists, not additions or changes to the Bungie.net website.

2) On the main topic, I have to say that I disagree about the importance of these statistics. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea, but I definitely disagree about their necessity.

3) My own personal opinion is that statistics-tracking has ruined the fun of this game.

3a) For example, I was ashamed yesterday when a player in my own party began making fun of another player because of his low rank and statistics. The guy kept saying "I just usually play social games, that's all" and yet the player in my party continued to harass him in very degrading ways until the game started (he was on the other team). Surely, that kind of behavior is not fun for the victim of the harassment.

3b) As another example, I sometimes (but not always) find myself taking actions in game or not taking them because I am keeping my statistics in mind. For example, towards the end of a game the other day, I realized that I had not gotten many kills but I had died several times that game. In order to get my K/D ratio higher, I grabbed a BR and started to go for kills rather than helping my teammate who was attempting to steal the other team's flag. After a moment I realized how selfish I was being and grabbed a Mongoose to help my teammate. But I have seen many instances of players failing to act like a team and instead going for improvement of their personal statistics. The best and most common example I can think of is the guy who grabs a sniper rifle on an objective game and then hides in a safe spot -- sniping away at people and rarely dying, but doing little to help the team obtain the objective, whatever it may be.

4) In my opinion, statistics tracking has affected not just the trash talk that occurs pregame, but also the way the game itself is played. With too much focus on personal statistics, players far too often no longer act as a team except in team slayer games. I have had to go to great lengths to find a small core group of XBL friends who will sacrifice themselves for the good of the team when necessary.

5) At any rate, all I'm doing is trying to outline the reasons why I am not too excited to see any more statistics tracked on BNet. This idea is fine, and I sure wouldn't complain if it was implemented, but I really think that there are more important things that the web team could be working on to improve this website.

  • 02.24.2008 8:56 AM PDT