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Subject: Everything's Always Negative :(

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[*Please note that anything in my posts is likely to be filled with sarcasm, and should be taken with a pinch of salt. I tend to help people, usually*]

Throughout most of my education, there's always been too much of an unbalance between what we're praised for and what we're scorned for.

The system here on b.net with the Report button (which, by the way is awesome and works really well!), is similar.

Us members can report bad behaviour, but not good. I've seen plenty of replies to threads which have said something which I 100% agree with. The only problem is, I go to...I suppose..."rate" these people's comment, only to be unable to.

So, I was wondering, for future B.net updates, whether an addition of a "Good Post" Karma Button or a "Good Member" Karma Button could be added?

This could go hand in hand with the Member Statuses, and perhaps improve it.

The only thing I'm curious about is whether this system could possibly be abused...multiple accounts or something rating the hell out of themselves, or their friends?

Perhaps a system could then be included to avoid similar IPs of accounts to Rate eachother?

Thoughts?

  • 02.24.2008 10:43 AM PDT
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Posted by: evilcam
Gz, I'd kill the whole world for you




3-19-07

I like the Karma system, but one major flaw: It can be manipulated.

I highly doubt it will happen due to that, but something similar would be nice.

  • 02.24.2008 10:54 AM PDT

I'm a serious dude, so what?

this would be a very good feature you propose, but with the current maturity level of the forums, it's just not feasible at this time.

-brady

  • 02.24.2008 11:01 AM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Interestingly, I actually agree with everyone in this thread so far. I agree with Sonic in that the feedback systems are too focused on the negative rather than the positive. Like Sonic, I've noticed that this is a problem that pervades throughout many of the activities we go through on a daily basis.

Not to say that humans are equal to dogs, but I have had four dogs in my lifetime and have learned (sometimes in very smelly and difficult-to-clean-up ways) that positive reinforcement is far more effective than negative reinforcement. When you encourage positive behavior rather than merely discouraging negative behavior, the subject of the encouragement does not merely keep out of trouble but is rather inspired to both keep out of trouble and do positive things.

I took several psychology and sociology classes in high school and college (they were required for my degree). In one of them, we did an experiment on positive versus negative reinforcement. We had a volunteer place a blindfold on and then picked a random spot in the room that they were supposed to reach. First, we provided negative reinforcement by booing at the volunteer whenever they were moving in the wrong direction. It took the volunteer almost ten minutes to find the "spot." Then, we chose another spot in the room and provided positive reinforcement by clapping whenever the volunteer was moving in the right direction. It took the volunteer less than a minute to find the correct spot.

These experiences, in my life at least, have taught me that positive reinforcement is far more effective than negative, and I have made many posts in favor of positive systems on these forums to encourage better behavior and change forum culture. Too often, I think, many people here are focused on punishing or deterring bad behavior. For this reason, Sonic, I agree with you that more positive systems are needed here.

Unfortunately, a "karma" system of the type you mentioned would be far too easy to manipulate -- so easy, in fact, to the point where it would actually positively reinforce bad behavior by providing rewards for doing things such as creating an alternate account and rating, bumping, or otherwise boosting a person's own thread. There would also be other possibilities for manipulation. For example, notice the screenshot groups in the files forums, that encouraged the bumping of their own group members' threads marked with a special tag in the subject line. I would expect that other groups that are either already formed or would be formed would do the same thing with a rating system.

So while I agree with you that more systems are needed (I've seen many good ideas posted here in the past that I agreed with, and I've had a couple of ideas of my own), I don't think that this particular idea would work.

[Edited on 02.24.2008 11:36 AM PST]

  • 02.24.2008 11:35 AM PDT

Why do people in ship mutinies always ask for "better treatment"? I'd ask for a pinball machine, because with all that rocking back and forth, you'd get a lot of free games.

Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.

well, not being reported is good right?

That is the good report system, by not being reported.

  • 02.24.2008 11:51 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Top_Gun_2021
well, not being reported is good right?

That is the good report system, by not being reported.
No, see, this is exactly what I was talking about. Not being reported is nothing. It is neither good nor bad.

  • 02.24.2008 12:08 PM PDT
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Talk to the Soul | ~B.B. | Know Your Duardo |  | Hero | ISFJ | 77135 | 94371

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."

I would assume that every thread or post that isn't reported (or locked) is a "good" thread. That may be how the web team and the ninja's look at it.

  • 02.24.2008 12:32 PM PDT

I like this idea, but I don't think it should be linked to member titles. It should be a separate system.

We could have a counter for positive votes, and one for reports. One vote per member, excluding the OP. Only the member themselves and ninjas could see these.

This way, manipulating the system by making lots of people report or something won't cause any negative effects. It's simply a way for ninjas to see whether the community approves or disapproves of a member's actions.

  • 02.24.2008 12:37 PM PDT

Twitter | Nothing

The only way that I can see a system that rewards members or is karma like is if only certain people can operate the system. For example only moderators can do it. So a moderator could see members contributing and give them positive "points". But I think this would still not work because th ratio of members to moderators is far too great. Plus its not what the moderators are there for.

I personally think that if you are being a positive member and contributing you don't need rewards. You'll have the respect of your fellow members and you'll know your a good member.

  • 02.24.2008 12:48 PM PDT

This would be a good idea-if people were mature enough to handle it. Someone could easily manipulate the system by, for example, asking all of their friends to give them a good rating.

If a system could be figured out that would prevent (or at least mostly prevent) manipulation of the system, then I say go for it.

It would be nice to have a way to rate posts in a good way.

  • 02.24.2008 12:48 PM PDT
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  • still hates toast

Um????? TOP TOPICS?!!!?? Save threads you like please.

  • 02.24.2008 12:59 PM PDT

Posted by: stosh
Um????? TOP TOPICS?!!!?? Save threads you like please.
So what you're saying is, we've had that all along.

I wish Bungie could be more open about how the site works. Then we wouldn't be drowning under spam topics.

Anyway, I'll start saving good topics from now on. Thanks stosh.

  • 02.24.2008 1:04 PM PDT

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Fools react, masters respond

~B.B.

I think that the Karma button is a good idea, but like everyone else I believe that it is way to easy to be abused.
hawkeye543

  • 02.24.2008 1:09 PM PDT

Posted by: stosh
Um????? TOP TOPICS?!!!?? Save threads you like please.

Yeah, I was going to mention that, but I figured it dealt more with the thread rather than the member. SonicJohn's idea was more to rate the user, I think.

  • 02.24.2008 1:23 PM PDT

Posted by: K1RK H4MM3T
Posted by: stosh
Um????? TOP TOPICS?!!!?? Save threads you like please.

Yeah, I was going to mention that, but I figured it dealt more with the thread rather than the member. SonicJohn's idea was more to rate the user, I think.
I guess the more people save a thread, the more positive feedback the OP get.

It would be nice to click a button next to each member to give positive feedback. Could it be labeled "Add Cowbell"?

  • 02.24.2008 1:41 PM PDT
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Posted by: stosh
Um????? TOP TOPICS?!!!?? Save threads you like please.


What are you talking about? I've seen several spam threads make it onto the top topics list, especially in the Flood. He's talking about individual users, not threads.

  • 02.24.2008 1:59 PM PDT

Whisper Game Studios - shhhh, it's a public secret.
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[*Please note that anything in my posts is likely to be filled with sarcasm, and should be taken with a pinch of salt. I tend to help people, usually*]

I totally agree Foman, You basically explained everything I was trying to. Perhaps the Karma system may be too easy to implement.

Stosh; I had no idea that Saving a Thread could up the Rating of a Member...interesting.Unless I've interpretted that incorrectly. Which i probably have. Also, I was more concerned about replies, than I was the thread's original poster.

Some times I actually Save Threads because I think they're hilarious (spam-wise)...hmmm, best stop doing that then.

[Edited on 02.24.2008 2:16 PM PST]

  • 02.24.2008 2:13 PM PDT

I am a penguin. Every day I boogie on down to the water, and eat fish. Once, while fishing in the deepest depths, I saw great Cthulhu... And he said to me "Shine, to thine own self be true. They can't tell you what to do once you've gone guru." Also, I should tell you, "slide".

Inventor of the Bombstache avatar!

The problem lies in that people would be more likely to alter their opinion to coincide with popular belief as to get higher ratings, there by working negatively affecting individuals with opinions that don't coincide with popular belief... possibly to the point of mass flaming on individuals or groups of individuals by the larger census.

[Edited on 02.24.2008 2:40 PM PST]

  • 02.24.2008 2:34 PM PDT
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Maybe only give the feature to Mythic Members to avoid the manipulation factors. Them being Mythic should say something about their behavior/time with BNET. I don't know... anything can be manipulated.

  • 02.24.2008 2:36 PM PDT

>> Eternal War
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I am a proud user of correct spelling and grammar.

Posted by: stosh
Um????? TOP TOPICS?!!!?? Save threads you like please.


I think you are mis-interpreting what the OP meant. They want to leave positive feedback on the user or the user's post, not the thread itself.

How I see it, it should work like Xbox Live's feedback. You can "prefer" the member, but only once, or you can report them, in this case, canceling the prefer. This way, if you accidentally report someone, you can easily prefer them to bring their trust back up to "normal."


Example Time
In the following example, I will just guess on how the trust system works: a form of points that increases and decreases depending on certain events and reaching different point values gives the member new titles.

Normal Member: 0-50 points
Heroic Member: 51-100 points
Legendary Member: 101-200 points
Mythic Member: 201-300 points


We'll go small-scale on this and give the max number of points a member can have, 300.

Example Violations would be:

Getting reported by another member: -2 points
Warning from a moderator: -10 points
3-day Blacklist: -50 points
7-day blacklist: -101 points


Okay, let's say Member 1 has a trust rating of 62 points, making him a Heroic Member. Member 1 makes a post that derails an on-topic subject and contains some random spam.

Member 2 sees this and reports Member 1, dropping Member 1's points to 60 (Let's say reporting a member takes off two points.).

Member 1 later posts in another thread, but this time, they contribute to the topic positively and then logs off for the day.

Member 3 likes the post Member 1 made and thinks the post is good enough to "prefer" Member 1 as a good member. This brings Member 1's trust points back up to 62 (Preferring a member could be the same amount of points as reporting a member, two. It could also be worth one point, to lower the chances of a manipulated trust meter.)

So at the end of the day, Member 1 has made two posts, one bad and one good, but changed nothing on their trust meter.

Now some points to be made:
* Member 3 can only prefer Member 1 once
* Member 2 could later prefer Member 1 if they like a post in the future that they make.


Tell me what you think, this is how I see it could work.

[Edited on 02.24.2008 3:46 PM PST]

  • 02.24.2008 3:00 PM PDT
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Posted by: x Foman123 x
Posted by: Top_Gun_2021
well, not being reported is good right?

That is the good report system, by not being reported.
No, see, this is exactly what I was talking about. Not being reported is nothing. It is neither good nor bad.
I'd have to disagree - assuming your posting frequency is tracked, a member with no posts and no reports would 'score' zero, whereas a member with a large number of posts would score positive or negative depending on the percentage of posts that are reported.

So if I have a high posting frequency and a low percentage of reported posts, I'd be a more trusted member than someone with no posts and no reports, who in turn would be more trusted than someone with a high posting frequency and a high percentage of reports.

If this were attached to the ranking system, then perhaps percentage of posts reported against post frequency might speed up advancement accordingly.

  • 02.24.2008 3:11 PM PDT

Кланяються мені!

Posted by: nuclear Halo
Posted by: stosh
Um????? TOP TOPICS?!!!?? Save threads you like please.


I think you are mis-interpreting what the OP meant. They want to leave positive feedback on the user or the ]u]user's post[/u], not the thread itself.

How I see it, it should work like Xbox Live's feedback. You can "prefer" the member, but only once, or you can report them, in this case, canceling the prefer. This way, if you accidentally report someone, you can easily prefer them to bring their trust back up to "normal."


Example Time
In the following example, I will just guess on how the trust system works: a form of points that increases and decreases depending on certain events and reaching different point values gives the member new titles.

Normal Member: 0-50 points
Heroic Member: 51-100 points
Legendary Member: 101-200 points
Mythic Member: 201-300 points


We'll go small-scale on this and give the max number of points a member can have, 300.

Example Violations would be:

Getting reported by another member: -2 points
Warning from a moderator: -10 points
3-day Blacklist: -50 points
7-day blacklist: -101 points


Okay, let's say Member 1 has a trust rating of 62 points, making him a Heroic Member. Member 1 makes a post that derails an on-topic subject and contains some random spam.

Member 2 sees this and reports Member 1, dropping Member 1's points to 60 (Let's say reporting a member takes off two points.).

Member 1 later posts in another thread, but this time, they contribute to the topic positively and then logs off for the day.

Member 3 likes the post Member 1 made and thinks the post is good enough to "prefer" Member 1 as a good member. This brings Member 1's trust points back up to 62 (Preferring a member could be the same amount of points as reporting a member, two. It could also be worth one point, to lower the chances of a manipulated trust meter.)

So at the end of the day, Member 1 has made two posts, one bad and one good, but changed nothing on their trust meter.

Now some points to be made:
* Member 3 can only prefer Member 1 once
* Member 2 could later prefer Member 1 if they like a post in the future that they make.


Tell me what you think, this is how I see it could work.



Thats a good idea, but I think it would only work when you have many members doing it. In a 300 post thread, if at least 60% preferred the topic then it counts as a "preferred topic" this is to prevent abuseive bahavior, like a kid that goes around giving people bad rep because he thinks its funny.

As for stosh, i truly believe the saved tread feature is an epic fail. Ive seen ENOURMOUS topics that don't even make the top threads list because nobody saves them. It just doesn't make any sense, I don't save threads because i like them, i save threads beause they have useful information. I can like a thread and join in on the conversation, but usualy if its just a good idea, like this thread for example,i won't save it because its not info.

  • 02.24.2008 3:12 PM PDT

>> Eternal War
Help save humanity! Join the epic war against the invading Vallcry!

I am a proud user of correct spelling and grammar.

Posted by: ecartman1214
Thats a good idea, but I think it would only work when you have many members doing it. In a 300 post thread, if at least 60% preferred the topic then it counts as a "preferred topic" this is to prevent abuseive bahavior, like a kid that goes around giving people bad rep because he thinks its funny.


I see what you mean, but my example was based on small scale and on the posts themselves, not by saving the threads.

In actuality, if the system does run on points, it could be thousands of points before a member gains a new title. And if that one kid goes around reporting random members, if they did nothing wrong, the kid would be at fault for wrongly reporting a member, thus causing his points to drop.

As for stosh, i truly believe the saved tread feature is an epic fail. Ive seen ENOURMOUS topics that don't even make the top threads list because nobody saves them. It just doesn't make any sense, I don't save threads because i like them, i save threads beause they have useful information. I can like a thread and join in on the conversation, but usualy if its just a good idea, like this thread for example,i won't save it because its not info.

I agree with most of this. While I save all kinds of threads: if I liked the topic, if it was good information, if I wanted to check out a link mentioned in it at a later time, or if it was just plain out funny; I don't think that you should get that much trust for it, if any.

Someone could post the most random and useless thread in the Flood, but if everyone likes it and saves the thread, the OP gains trust for basically posting spam. Maybe if the trust was only affected in certain Forums where good discussions are common.

  • 02.24.2008 3:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: x Foman123 x
Interestingly, I actually agree with everyone in this thread so far. I agree with Sonic in that the feedback systems are too focused on the negative rather than the positive. Like Sonic, I've noticed that this is a problem that pervades throughout many of the activities we go through on a daily basis.

Not to say that humans are equal to dogs, but I have had four dogs in my lifetime and have learned (sometimes in very smelly and difficult-to-clean-up ways) that positive reinforcement is far more effective than negative reinforcement. When you encourage positive behavior rather than merely discouraging negative behavior, the subject of the encouragement does not merely keep out of trouble but is rather inspired to both keep out of trouble and do positive things.

I took several psychology and sociology classes in high school and college (they were required for my degree). In one of them, we did an experiment on positive versus negative reinforcement. We had a volunteer place a blindfold on and then picked a random spot in the room that they were supposed to reach. First, we provided negative reinforcement by booing at the volunteer whenever they were moving in the wrong direction. It took the volunteer almost ten minutes to find the "spot." Then, we chose another spot in the room and provided positive reinforcement by clapping whenever the volunteer was moving in the right direction. It took the volunteer less than a minute to find the correct spot.

These experiences, in my life at least, have taught me that positive reinforcement is far more effective than negative, and I have made many posts in favor of positive systems on these forums to encourage better behavior and change forum culture. Too often, I think, many people here are focused on punishing or deterring bad behavior. For this reason, Sonic, I agree with you that more positive systems are needed here.

Unfortunately, a "karma" system of the type you mentioned would be far too easy to manipulate -- so easy, in fact, to the point where it would actually positively reinforce bad behavior by providing rewards for doing things such as creating an alternate account and rating, bumping, or otherwise boosting a person's own thread. There would also be other possibilities for manipulation. For example, notice the screenshot groups in the files forums, that encouraged the bumping of their own group members' threads marked with a special tag in the subject line. I would expect that other groups that are either already formed or would be formed would do the same thing with a rating system.

So while I agree with you that more systems are needed (I've seen many good ideas posted here in the past that I agreed with, and I've had a couple of ideas of my own), I don't think that this particular idea would work.


You are aware that you could potentially have relayed this exact same message in about, um, one eighth of the words, right?

I come onto an internet forum, only to be confronted by the kind of fluff-filled, and overwrought literature I would expect in a bad novel or a Florida Voting Ballot.....

Never mind....

I do agree with what you have said though.
Which is, in short:
"Positive Reinforcement=GOOD
Negative Reinforcement= SOMETIMES GOOD"

  • 02.24.2008 3:27 PM PDT

» Sincerely, Dan

I agree with your suggestion, but also the first two replies. It is a great idea, but I don't think this community can handle it.

  • 02.24.2008 9:30 PM PDT

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