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This topic has moved here: Subject: Thread Bumping and How it Can Help
  • Subject: Thread Bumping and How it Can Help
Subject: Thread Bumping and How it Can Help
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While I think bumping is obnoxious I have seen how it can be useful and you raise good arguments however I believe this is a case of a few "bad eggs" spoiling the batch or whatever you want to call it. I am completley fine with this "No Bumping" rule but i'll still present a theory as to how I would impliment this system. I would give all users a set amount of times(x) the can post in a period of time(y) so you get x amount of posts every y minutes,hours,days. I feel this would also reduce spam and provide a nice way to bump if you think its worth it.
I haven't decided yet if mods would be exempt or not from this. But what do you think?

  • 03.11.2008 10:43 AM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: a rabid snail
I'm not saying they will bump unlimited times. Just those two extra legal bumps would get spam and uninteresting back up to the front page, and possibly create more spam. The spammers will be caught, but people would bump their useless topics certainly. With the amount of these topics on bungie.net, even if you could only bump twice, useless threads would dominate the front page. If there is a topic that is gaining a multitude of replies it will appear on the front page anyway. There is no need to bump any topic, legally or illegally. People could either search youir topic in quotes or find your profile if it's not in the front page. As many people have said before, the cons would greatly outweigh the pros, and people will find a way to abuse the system anyway.

It may come back the front page, but doesn't it already? With the number of "f u" and "stop spamming" replies already posted, two more bumps is negligible and generally all those other replies get the topic locked quickly. And once the topic has been bumped to its limit, bumping it anymore is also a fast-pass to a lock, where all spam topics should be. Spam is an exception, since it is unavoidable with or without this system. So giving it up as saying "but they can also bump spam then" is basically saying they will be doing what they already are doing, just the first two times they do it won't be bannable.

[Edited on 03.11.2008 12:15 PM PDT]

  • 03.11.2008 12:01 PM PDT
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Plain and Simple: If the discussion does not receive replies it does not warrant them. Anyone who replies to Spam, even in saying that it is spam, should be warned or temp banned depending on number of offenses. 'Bump' does not continue a conversation. However much you may want it to continue, does not warrant it discussion from other members.

A better solution than bumping, in my opinion, would be to observe the most popular topics, most posted, and etc... Then compile a few posts with these included for discussion. This was as soon as someone enters they can see the topic they are wanting to discuss. Of course these will need to be updated periodically depending on whats in discussion. And, of course there will always be some who don't read any mosts at all and go straight to making a new post. These should not be replied to, just reported for an auto lock by mod.

[Edited on 03.11.2008 12:17 PM PDT]

  • 03.11.2008 12:16 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Lucas_Snow
Plain and Simple: If the discussion does not receive replies it does not warrant them. Anyone who replies to Spam, even in saying that it is spam, should be warned or temp banned depending on number of offenses. 'Bump' does not continue a conversation. However much you may want it to continue, does not warrant it discussion from other members.

So if I ask a question, and that question goes unanswered for a day what would be the best solution then? Bump my old topic and keep the forum tidy, or re-create the topic and add to the duplicates problem?

Posted by: Lucas_Snow
A better solution than bumping, in my opinion, would be to observe the most popular topics, most posted, and etc... Then compile a few posts with these included for discussion. This was as soon as someone enters they can see the topic they are wanting to discuss. Of course these will need to be updated periodically depending on whats in discussion. And, of course there will always be some who don't read any mosts at all and go straight to making a new post. These should not be replied to, just reported for an auto lock by mod.

I am confused here. Are you suggesting to copy attributes of other topics, or only make topics discussing those topics? Your post is a bit unclear.

  • 03.11.2008 12:21 PM PDT
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My idea is to create a box, just over the regular topics. Inside this box could be 6 topics, 3x3. These 6 topics are controlled by the mods, meaning a Mod puts it there. These threads will be the most regular and popular topics of said forum at the time. Mods could change them as the topics changed.

For Example the Halo 3 forum could have: Recon Information, Halo 3 Campaign Discussion, Halo 3 Thoughts and Suggestions, Forge Thread, and etc....

Basically it's pinned topics, but these should be in a Box located just above normal topics, and in 2 columns. They should also have their own Flashy Icons, such as the Hot Topic one to help them stand out to everyone. Simple Names such as; Recon Info, so that people are not confused by any of it.

I think if we did this and left the Hot Topics to the right it would streamline the Forums much better and make sure the Pinnned topics were seen by the majority of members. With the topics ever changing with what was most in discussion it would cut down on repeat threads a lot more than allowing "Bump" would, I would think.

  • 03.11.2008 12:39 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Im not saying it won't be effective, what I am saying is try to make a compromise. A perfect example of the inability to compromise is the most basic and unsound statement in this thread, "That may be true for those forums, but the fact is they are not Bungie.net". That is ignorant, and saying something like that is really just avoiding the truth. A forum is a forum, regardless of its URL. It is like saying that a car made by ford isn't the same as a car made in japan. That may be true in detail and appearance, but the fact of the matter is it runs on 4 wheels, an engine, and has seat belts and headlights. It is the same thing done in a different way. Bungie.net is a forum, so if something works on other forums it should work here.

A compromise was made when group titles were made. They sacrificed possibly jealousy and community rage when they gave members differing status on the forum. They compromised with the report button, allowing for possible spam and false reports in the hope they will get more positive ones. Every forum feature comes with a pro and a con, its up to the admins to determine if they want to take on those possible problems to get to the benefits.

What I am trying to do with these topics is not fight for a new feature, but get many people here to realize how to compromise. Most people here think that any feature will be abused instantly. Well, you are completely right. It WILL be abused, there is no avoiding abuse in any form of privilege given to the public. People are stupid, thats how it is. But are you willing to let a few idiots destroy the freedoms of the rest of the community?

Just a few months a go, this forum had literally no motivation to stay here other than the fact you could post a topic and join groups. That was the extent of this forum. No post counts, no join dates, no member titles, no individuality or acknowledgment of accomplishment. I have had little reason to post here at all, merely because I just felt like a stagnant body. But now that has already started to be remedied. Member titles give members something to aspire to, something to aim for. Post counts have a similar effect as member ranks. They motivate you as well as gauge your contribution to the forum. It makes you feel like you are an active member.

This feature may not be foolproof, but it is in no way absolutely evil. I am tired of feeling like I am shouting at a wall, with no one to hear or even comprehend my words. I post something, it goes unanswered. No matter how well thought out or well formatted it is, it just gets filed into the abyss of a database b.net has. I really hate repeat topics, it is a huge pet peeve of mine. So making repeat topics is a big problem to me, but that is the only way to try and get my voice heard without breaking the "no bump" rule.

  • 03.11.2008 12:44 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: a rabid snail
Posted by: Lucas_Snow
My idea is to create a box, just over the regular topics. Inside this box could be 6 topics, 3x3. These 6 topics are controlled by the mods, meaning a Mod puts it there. These threads will be the most regular and popular topics of said forum at the time. Mods could change them as the topics changed.

For Example the Halo 3 forum could have: Recon Information, Halo 3 Campaign Discussion, Halo 3 Thoughts and Suggestions, Forge Thread, and etc....

Basically it's pinned topics, but these should be in a Box located just above normal topics, and in 2 columns. They should also have their own Flashy Icons, such as the Hot Topic one to help them stand out to everyone. Simple Names such as; Recon Info, so that people are not confused by any of it.

I think if we did this and left the Hot Topics to the right it would streamline the Forums much better and make sure the Pinnned topics were seen by the majority of members. With the topics ever changing with what was most in discussion it would cut down on repeat threads a lot more than allowing "Bump" would, I would think.




That is a well thought out suggestion, Lucas. It hurt my head tremendously, but irregardless, that was great. I don't see how that could promote spam in any way, and it would make the forums cleaner and more efficient. I could actually see that working out.


Look to your right... that is already there.

  • 03.11.2008 12:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K

Look to your right... that is already there.


Pay attention to what I wrote, I stated that, but it's a bit different and moved, similar to the Old style, but mixed with the current layout and a few other changes. Reading helps...

  • 03.11.2008 1:03 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Lucas_Snow
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K

Look to your right... that is already there.


Pay attention to what I wrote, I stated that, but it's a bit different and moved, similar to the Old style, but mixed with the current layout and a few other changes. Reading helps...

No one read the stickies when they were at the top before, so changing an entire system that is already doing its job and moving it to a location that was already proven as ineffective is probably not going to change anything. It is not a bad idea, but it is also not what this topic is about.

  • 03.11.2008 1:12 PM PDT

I don't think that bumping is a useful tool, nor do I think that it should be given to the members. By and large, it is used because people automatically think that what they have to say or what files they have to post are so much more worthy of attention than those recently posted that they're willing to displace those other posts in order to get front-page status for themselves.

You're forgetting one thing about redundant threads. A lot of the time, when I see a large hot thread with hundreds of replies near a new thread on the same topic with zero replies, it's because the OP thinks that his idea is so much better than those of the hundreds of others who posted properly in the hot thread, that it deserves more attention than the rest of them. People would still create repeat topics because of this: a lot of them don't care that their post goes in the wrong place, as long as it gets noticed.

I think that, if a topic should be discussed, it will be discussed without the need for bumping. If I create a topic, I'm trying to make it as social as possible -- I want to generate honest replies, so that I don't need to use bumping as an annoying crutch to keep my thread alive. If the thread dies, so be it: I move on with my life and I don't let it bother me because I know that bumping my thread will shove someone who's looking to have a discussion off of the first page or wherever. In short, I believe that threads should be kept alive by discussion, not bumps, because topics are for discussing things and bumping does not constitute discussion.

Those are the main reasons for my disagreeing -- IMHO, bumping isn't something that we need, and it's certainly not something that we need to promote.

[Edited on 03.11.2008 1:18 PM PDT]

  • 03.11.2008 1:17 PM PDT
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Link me to a thread where bumping was appropiate.

If you find 1, which you won't btw, I'll mail you $100.

  • 03.11.2008 1:21 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

How does bumping not constitute discussion? Please explain, since no one has yet. Whenever I see a topic bumped, discussion begins. It seems to me that it almost always is an incentive for more discussion.

Posted by: wHo iZ XtrEmE
Link me to a thread where bumping was appropiate.

If you find 1, which you won't btw, I'll mail you $100.

On this forum or any forum? Because on this forum, according to the rules, it is never appropriate. According to other rules, bumping may be appropriate in many situations, especially in the files forum where you can ONLY make one post for a file. Maybe if the Gallery was split into sections where you can display your own work, then you could have a map and gametype thread dedicated to your creations that people can check.

Bumping is also appropriate when the main post is updated, which happened many times in my old "Halo 3 Official Fan Art Thread" about a half a year ago. I actually purposely avoided posting in that topic so that I would have a viable reason to bump it up by replying to someone elses old post.

Can I have $100 now? It may not be a link, but it is still true.


[Edited on 03.11.2008 1:28 PM PDT]

  • 03.11.2008 1:22 PM PDT
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No no link yet.

I'm not going to say that all bumping is 100% bad but maybe 99.9% of it is.

The reason bumping isn't promoted is due to the simple fact that it would get abused and the fact that the ninja's don't have time to check every single thread if it were allowed even just a tad bit.

  • 03.11.2008 1:42 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: wHo iZ XtrEmE
No no link yet.

I'm not going to say that all bumping is 100% bad but maybe 99.9% of it is.

The reason bumping isn't promoted is due to the simple fact that it would get abused and the fact that the ninja's don't have time to check every single thread if it were allowed even just a tad bit.


The post button is abused, yet it is still here. Everything can and will be abused, as I have said. Read my posts above and you will see what I mean by that.

Link to thread: http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=6909168

[Edited on 03.11.2008 1:49 PM PDT]

  • 03.11.2008 1:45 PM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
How does bumping not constitute discussion? Please explain, since no one has yet. Whenever I see a topic bumped, discussion begins. It seems to me that it almost always is an incentive for more discussion.

If you intentionally bump a thread, you are not contributing to the discussion -- you're doing it to shove your thread back up the listing. If you are posting only to keep the thread alive, that's not true participation.

It is not an incentive for discussion to continue. It is a means to an end: shoving your topic farther up the listing with the knowledge that you'll be displacing other threads to get there. Having a good, social topic is not so much an incentive as it is an invitation for people to come and discuss something if they'd like.

[Edited on 03.11.2008 1:50 PM PDT]

  • 03.11.2008 1:49 PM PDT

Community Carnage group
They call me Arch. YOU SHALL NOT PASS!

Posting on the forums: 5 minutes.
Making a thread: 20 minutes.
Claiming you are the alt of a banned account: Priceless.
For everything else, there's stosh.

how we can help ...

1. don't do it
2. encourage others not to do it
3. let the mods kick butt after you report them

done and done

cheers

Arch

  • 03.11.2008 1:51 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Demerzel
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
How does bumping not constitute discussion? Please explain, since no one has yet. Whenever I see a topic bumped, discussion begins. It seems to me that it almost always is an incentive for more discussion.

If you intentionally bump a thread, you are not contributing to the discussion -- you're doing it to shove your thread back up the listing. If you are posting only to keep the thread alive, that's not true participation.

It is not an incentive for discussion to continue. It is a means to an end: shoving your topic farther up the listing with the knowledge that you'll be displacing other threads to get there. Having a good, social topic is not so much an incentive as it is an invitation for people to come and discuss something if they'd like.


How can people discuss if they do not see the topic though? The biggest problem with these forums is the sheer volume of posters. Topics rarely stay on the front page more than 5 minutes if they are not replied to. That is a 5 minute window for people to see what you have posted. That is extremely small if you ask me. I have even seen posts leave the front page in a matter of seconds. Bumping may not be continuing the discussion, but it is making the topic more accessible to people who might want to discuss it. It could even prevent many people from creating the topic again merely because they didn't see it on the front page.

  • 03.11.2008 1:53 PM PDT
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Posted by: Primum Agmen
A tosser is the same as a wanker. To toss oneself off is to fondle the trouser weasel.


Achronos

Joe Staten

I don't see where this discussion is heading to. Bumping won't help anyone, the webmaster himself does not aprove it, why discuss this?

[Edited on 03.11.2008 1:59 PM PDT]

  • 03.11.2008 1:59 PM PDT
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Posted by: Yuke
I don't see where this discussion is heading to. Bumping won't help anyone, the webmaster himself does not approve it, why discuss this?


Because this guy refuses to see any other side than his own. His excuse is: The post button is abused to. Yea, but Posting is necessary for forums, bumping is not. Why add to the chop? Sure some people could bump a relevant topic to the top, that no one saw, and this would be good. But this is one thread out of the 500 others, that will be posted, and bumped, and then it will all boil down to Bumping more to make sure you're thread stays on the page to be seen. As soon as you Bump so does everyone else, so essentially all this accomplishes is threads full of "Bump."

I'm sorry but you're being to kind in assuming only good topics will be bumped. As soon as it is allowed everyone will do it, to every thread. So the threads will still fall of the front page, just as fast, and we will have accomplished nothing but Bump Warring.

[Edited on 03.11.2008 3:06 PM PDT]

  • 03.11.2008 3:04 PM PDT
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SPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!

You say that bumping is only a problem because its not allowed here. You say that good discussion are frequently a result of bumping.

I disagree. Evidence that bumping is a problem, and that's its usually nothing more than an attention grabbing ploy. They bump because they want attention. They rarely bump because there is a decent discussion going on and they want to continue it. Your axiom is flawed, beyond repair. Though there may be a bump that's made to continue discussion, every once in awhile, but those are very rare. Your "evidence" which was link to your thread backs up my assertion. Was there a useful point to that thread? Yes, and thank you for making it and maintaining it. Was there a discussion worth preserving? No, the point of that thread was not to discuss anything, it was to post art. So, your argument that "some discussions are worth saving" is instantly nullified by your evidence. I agree that it was a good thread, but it does not at all prove your point. Did it need to be bumped? No. And there you have it.

You say that I'm ignorant because I think other forums behave differently than this one. Your analogies were totally off base and pointless in this context. Is another forum similar to this one because it has topics and posts? Yes, but that taking it to its baser nature. Are other forums replete with pointless stupidity and ego-building topics/posts? Yes they are, but rarely to the degree that this one receives. The only forums which have a similar level of stupidity are very different than Bungie.net, because the usually allow or encourage that kind of behavior. Case in point; 4chan. We don't want that crap here, but due to Halo's popularity, its here anyway. Here is where the primary difference comes in. We don't want that crap here. We don't want attention seeking stupidity (which if you can't see that attention seeking stupidity is the primary motive for bumping, please spend some time actually looking at these forums before you debate them), and advocating it would only make it worse.

So even though a "Ford" and a "Toyota" may still be vehicles which have 4 wheels, they should not be used as analogies to this situation unless you qualify it with something like the following. "Fords are made with rambunctious kids in mind. Their hard plastic interiors prevent damage and stains, while Toyota interiors are soft and damage and stain easily. Its clear that Ford is comfortable with destructive people being in its vehicle, while Toyota would prefer those kind of people stayed away from their vehicles." Though even that is very derivative and pedantic.

If topics are already falling off the first page in five minutes, how would advocating bumping fix that? If anything, it would just make it worse. Why, oh why, can't you see that?

I'm pretty sure the web-team does not want to implement anything like this anyway, though since I don't speak for them, I guess I'll leave this open for now. However, if the people who control the site don't want this, then this is indeed an exercise in futility.

  • 03.11.2008 5:18 PM PDT
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Hello.

Wow, evilcam, long post. Give me some time to read it and understand it.

*reads*

Good logic.

Most topics that are good get replies. Most topics that are ignorant get bumps.

-XIX Goodeye XIX


  • 03.11.2008 5:21 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Lucas_Snow
Posted by: Yuke
I don't see where this discussion is heading to. Bumping won't help anyone, the webmaster himself does not approve it, why discuss this?


Because this guy refuses to see any other side than his own. His excuse is: The post button is abused to. Yea, but Posting is necessary for forums, bumping is not. Why add to the chop? Sure some people could bump a relevant topic to the top, that no one saw, and this would be good. But this is one thread out of the 500 others, that will be posted, and bumped, and then it will all boil down to Bumping more to make sure you're thread stays on the page to be seen. As soon as you Bump so does everyone else, so essentially all this accomplishes is threads full of "Bump."

I'm sorry but you're being to kind in assuming only good topics will be bumped. As soon as it is allowed everyone will do it, to every thread. So the threads will still fall of the front page, just as fast, and we will have accomplished nothing but Bump Warring.

It isn't an excuse, it is an example. I am giving you a more extreme look at your argument. You are arguing that people will abuse it, but what about the people who wont? Do we just forget them, throw the ability to use something out the window just because a few people ruined it for them? Isn't that exactly what rule breakers want? To destroy all the rights and privileges of the people on this forum and make the experience here a hell on earth? Those bad members have already succeeded here. They destroyed individuality, sense of accomplishment and even most of the general forum rights you see in every other community on the internet. This place is locked tighter than Fort Knox and it is started to strangle its members.

Did you also forget the limits I explained? Bump wars would lead to getting topics locked. It is no different than spamming a topic to keep it at the top now, just that your first two bumps are free of consequence. Bumping, as I said, would be reserved for only a 12-24 hour period after posting or your first bump, meaning you would have to keep track of your thread as well as make sure you post after the time limit. This would keep threads bumped at different times, and allow new threads a 12 hour period to be seen and become popular discussion topics.

Posted by: evilcam
You say that bumping is only a problem because its not allowed here. You say that good discussion are frequently a result of bumping.

I disagree. Evidence that bumping is a problem, and that's its usually nothing more than an attention grabbing ploy. They bump because they want attention. They rarely bump because there is a decent discussion going on and they want to continue it. Your axiom is flawed, beyond repair. Though there may be a bump that's made to continue discussion, every once in awhile, but those are very rare. Your "evidence" which was link to your thread backs up my assertion. Was there a useful point to that thread? Yes, and thank you for making it and maintaining it. Was there a discussion worth preserving? No, the point of that thread was not to discuss anything, it was to post art. So, your argument that "some discussions are worth saving" is instantly nullified by your evidence. I agree that it was a good thread, but it does not at all prove your point. Did it need to be bumped? No. And there you have it.

It is not flawed beyond repair, the only problem is that good discussions never get bumped since they are posted by good members, who don't break the rule of no bumping. Your own rule is tainting your evidence. The only topics that receive bumps are those which are posted by new members who do not know the rules, or are bumped by people purposefully breaking the rules. On this forum there is no evidence other than for your side because of your own rules.

If you want a better example of "discussion" threads, some of them are the ARG threads that appeared in the Halo 3 forum. If they had not been stickied, do you think they would have stayed as orderly? I doubt the threads would have lasted more than 3 days if they weren't stickied.

Posted by: evilcam
You say that I'm ignorant because I think other forums behave differently than this one. Your analogies were totally off base and pointless in this context. Is another forum similar to this one because it has topics and posts? Yes, but that taking it to its baser nature. Are other forums replete with pointless stupidity and ego-building topics/posts? Yes they are, but rarely to the degree that this one receives. The only forums which have a similar level of stupidity are very different than Bungie.net, because the usually allow or encourage that kind of behavior. Case in point; 4chan. We don't want that crap here, but due to Halo's popularity, its here anyway. Here is where the primary difference comes in. We don't want that crap here. We don't want attention seeking stupidity (which if you can't see that attention seeking stupidity is the primary motive for bumping, please spend some time actually looking at these forums before you debate them), and advocating it would only make it worse.

4chan is a one of a kind hell hole. Most every other respectable forum which allows features has dealt with these things and not given up all the member rights you have here. A community on one forum is just as likely to go the way this one has. I think the reason this forum is so bad is because there are so many rules to break, and so little to make yourself stand out that people will break rules just to feel like they are an individual. Custom avatars and post counts, as well as signatures and images in those satisfy the need for individuality every forum member has. Post counts and member titles satisfy their need for accomplishment and progression, making them feel more like a part of the community and less like a newbie.

Posted by: evilcam
If topics are already falling off the first page in five minutes, how would advocating bumping fix that? If anything, it would just make it worse. Why, oh why, can't you see that?

I understand that much. What you think is that having topics being bumped will push newer topics off the front page. But what it does prevent is repeats and keeps discussion in the first topic to be made. Most new topics are generally repeats, so with less new topics being made, less people will have to bump and a nice little cycle will begin to keep the forum clean and tidy, and hopefully help with your database which is a mess of search results.

I am not saying that everyone can just bump regardless, since abuse is obvious and can be judged, just like abuse of mere ability to post can be judged on whether is it legitimate or just plain abuse. I am saying give this tool to the community so the people who do need it can use it.

But, it really isn't much a big deal to me. I am just enjoying this discussion. I love to debate, and to argue the hardest side of the argument just to better understand both point of view, and help myself find ways to win an uphill battle.

  • 03.11.2008 5:55 PM PDT