Halo 1 & 2 for PC
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Subject: Qualms
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I think that it is pretty much an established belief that the "flood" section of the forums are entirely useless for getting a real discussion going, unless it is about food, sex, or entertainment. The PC forums on the otherhand are for the most part, segregated from the rest of the site, which is both good and bad in that though traffic is low, we can actually get informed debates going. This is my justification for posting this thread here. Anyway, back to the purpose of the thread:

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Stephen King, author of many deranged fantasies, expressed his support for the videogaming community, by going against the pending bill "HB 1423" in the Massachusetts state legislature. He argues of course the commonly argued position, that it is ultimately the parents' responsibility to make sure that "innocent" young minds are not tainted by blasphemous and lewd remarks. He argues that pop culture has always been fingered out as the cause for all the wrongs in the world, and that video games are just another form of entertainment under attack because of their popularity.

What he FAILS to argue is that by Massachusetts legislature making it illegal for young gamers to buy such materials, they are infringing on their rights as United States citizens (and for our international friends, yeah the bill is bad for you too, because our domestic affairs spread quickly). A 12 year old kid can go out and get the unrated edition of Saw, with all the graphic content that quickly matures a young innocent child. Why is this? Because this is America, and we have rights. Of course ultimately the parent's word is always what ultimately goes first (because how do you think that kid gets the money for a videogame?), but what state and federal legislature must realize is that it is their role to INFORM the parents and the general public through the ESRB, and not to take an unconstitutional stance on a matter that is effected by a bunch of people who play violent videogames after going off their anti-depressants or other anti-psychotic pills. The bottomline, the state and federal legislature has to back off. Though I don't really like Stephen King's books, because I find them to be too twisted for my taste, as I prefer a nice Tom Clancy read instead, I do support him on this issue. The government needs to back off. This is America.

-Recoton007

Article Mentioned:
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20188502,00.html

[Edited on 04.07.2008 5:43 PM PDT]

  • 04.07.2008 3:36 PM PDT
Subject: Recoton007's Qualms
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I thought American children didn't have the same rights as an American adult? Seems to me from the way you worded your post that banning alcohol for people under 21 would be unconstitutional for example.

I agree that the government shouldn't waste their time and tax-payers money on silly bills and that the final burden should be on the parents to watch what their kids are doing. Unfortunately not all parents are as good as they should be. So how do we keep kids from corrupting their innocent little minds?

I used to work at a 7-11, and if I were caught selling cigarettes to a minor, that would earn me a $5000 fine, and $50,000 fine for the company. So we were vigorously encouraged to ask for I.D. whenever a young looking person asked for smokes. Something similar may work in this case. Since some parents don't care enough to keep their kids away from smokes the onus was on us as employees to keep smokes out of young peoples hands. Now if a parent or other adult were to purchase smokes for said young people (second party sale) unless we were aware of that fact there's not much we can do about it.

If the employees at Wal-Mart, Futureshop, or wherever the hell people buy videogames faced big time fines and termination, they'd be a lot less willing to sell Gears of War to a 9 year old.

It's interesting to see that we have something in common, what did you think of Clancys latest book "The Teeth of the Tiger"? Frankly I found it wasn't up to par with some of his other works like "Debt of Honor" and "Rainbow Six". Hell, even "The Sum of All Fears" was better, and I can barely force myself through that book. I actually just started it this morning.

  • 04.07.2008 4:23 PM PDT
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Where I live (in the US) I do have to show ID to buy M rated games...
I don't know if stores get fined, but they do at least attempt to check.

And yeah, the flood used to be a great place to hang about about 4 years ago, now it's just randomness all over the place.

  • 04.07.2008 4:54 PM PDT
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I'm just nit picking, but was it necessary for you to use third person when you simply could have used "My Qualms" as the topic title?

Anyway, my two cents: Let the parents decide.

  • 04.07.2008 5:22 PM PDT
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Posted by: TUI_Obi_Wan
I thought American children didn't have the same rights as an American adult? Seems to me from the way you worded your post that banning alcohol for people under 21 would be unconstitutional for example...I used to work at a 7-11, and if I were caught selling cigarettes to a minor, that would earn me a $5000 fine, and $50,000 fine for the company. So we were vigorously encouraged to ask for I.D. whenever a young looking person asked for smokes.


I think the problem with videogames is that they are being treated as quasi-hallucinogens, in the sense that they offer an alternate form of interactive reality. However, the truth is that videogames are more of a form of entertainment than drug. Now tying back to what you said, the Bill of Rights applies to everyone no matter their age, as does the Constitution of the United States. To limit a game developer's free speech is an infringement on their rights, in the most fundamental degree. The only way that it would be legally accepted to ban the sales of games(Mature rated, etc) to minors is if there exists concrete indisputable evidence to show the harm that videogames have and could cause.

Cigarettes and alcholic beverages are proven to be health risks to our "younger citizens," as they could deform a young childs brain, so that they would be no more intelligent than a fruitcup, and destroy their internal organs, so that their lungs would be the color of my GameCube (Jet Black...not purple). The threat of lung cancer, over intoxication, and ultimately death, are the primary reasons for the age restrictions for buying those products.

If you wanted to be the Jack Thompson of the debate, and argue that there exists evidence that links select mentally disturbed gamers with occasional episodes of insanity and violence, then your "evidence" would be highly disputed. It was once believed that if you played games that raised your blood pressure, you would be more prone to inflict violence on others. Unfortunately while Gears of War and GTA fall into these categories, so do Tetris and Pacman (and I would like for Jack Thompson to associate the violence of eating a flashing blue ghost and a pixelated strawberry, with crazy students who are overstressed and psychologically disturbed.)

If the employees at Wal-Mart, Futureshop, or wherever the hell people buy videogames faced big time fines and termination, they'd be a lot less willing to sell Gears of War to a 9 year old.


No doubt. Which is why parents should take an active role in restricting such games from..."immature" (for lack of a better term) children, who should not be playing these games. The problem is two-fold, where on one-side you have parents and associations who need something to blame all of their children's short-comings on, and on the other side you have the government wanting to take a more active role. Stores such as Wal-Mart and Gamestop should be legally protected from the ridiculous lawsuits, as they are not drug-dealers when they sell M-rated games, but rather the sellers of generally accepted entertainment. When the parents come home and see their child playing Condemned: Blood Somethin-er-other, do they just go, "We should sue Gamestop" or should they go "Maybe we should reevaluate our positions as parents with significant influence and moral authority over our child." I find the whole debate quite fascinating, but at the end of the day, I have to side with gamers on this one.

It's interesting to see that we have something in common, what did you think of Clancys latest book "The Teeth of the Tiger"? Frankly I found it wasn't up to par with some of his other works like "Debt of Honor" and "Rainbow Six". Hell, even "The Sum of All Fears" was better, and I can barely force myself through that book. I actually just started it this morning.

I was lucky enough to read an excerpt of the Teeth of the Tiger, and it seemed pretty good from those few twenty pages. I haven't had the chance to actually sit down and read many books that aren't on the curriculum, but I did manage to read Rainbow Six, Hunt for Red October and the more recent Red Rabbit. They were of course, nothing short of awesome. I also enjoyed Splinter Cell (which was written by David Michaels though) and Ops Center: State of Siege. In short, I'm a fan. If you can drag yourself through the first 300 pages, you'll find your reward in the last 300. Lol, in the mean time, I'm trapped reading "Waiting for Godot".

-Recoton007

P.S. Damn this post is long.

[Edited on 04.07.2008 5:42 PM PDT]

  • 04.07.2008 5:41 PM PDT
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Yes, I am a hypocrite, and I'm sorry. I really do mean well, but I'm not running on all cylinders.

Everytime someone buys a copy of Halo 2 Vista, a puppy dies.

Kids will suffer peer pressure in the same way they do about smoking. I'm sure both parties will find ways to get the games (and smokes) they want from an oblivious adult.

  • 04.07.2008 5:54 PM PDT
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Wow just wow, just when you thought the government couldn't get any more stupid...

  • 04.07.2008 7:36 PM PDT
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Ok, -blam!- this, I've already tried TWICE to post a nice long well thought out reply, but the impenetrable miasma that is Bungie.net's netcode has swallowed both. In brief I'm siding with the "Keep M rated games out of the hands of minors" crowd.

[Edited on 04.07.2008 8:56 PM PDT]

  • 04.07.2008 8:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: TUI_Obi_Wan
Ok, -blam!- this, I've already tried TWICE to post a nice long well thought out reply, but the impenetrable miasma that is Bungie.net's netcode has swallowed both. In brief I'm siding with the "Keep M rated games out of the hands of minors" crowd.


I feel your pain buddy. Collect your thoughts and write it in MS Word if you can, then just copy and paste. That always saves me the pain of the "WTF?!? What a piece of f!@#ing S#$%!" feeling when the submit button times-out.

[Edited on 04.07.2008 9:20 PM PDT]

  • 04.07.2008 9:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: Recoton007
Posted by: TUI_Obi_Wan
Ok, -blam!- this, I've already tried TWICE to post a nice long well thought out reply, but the impenetrable miasma that is Bungie.net's netcode has swallowed both. In brief I'm siding with the "Keep M rated games out of the hands of minors" crowd.


I feel your pain buddy. Collect your thoughts and write it in MS Word if you can, then just copy and paste. That always saves me the pain of the "WTF?!? What a piece of f!@#ing S#$%!" feeling when the submit button times-out.

Better yet, if you can recognize when the site will eat your long thought-out reply, it's generally a good idea to select your text and do a quick ctrl+c. But the errors are still annoying...

  • 04.07.2008 10:10 PM PDT

Long live the Last Refuge!

OMG a mod!

  • 04.07.2008 10:14 PM PDT

Posted by: halo3leader
OMG a mod!

  • 04.08.2008 5:49 AM PDT
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Posted by: SuperSnorky
Posted by: halo3leader
OMG a mod!
Normally this is the part where we create a massive quote pyramid that rivals that of the Egyptians because moderators don't frequent this forum as much, however, we should refrain from doing so.

I hate Bungie's website code with each subsequent update.

  • 04.08.2008 12:08 PM PDT
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Lol, I guess I'll continue the pyramid too.

Posted by: halo3leader
OMG a mod!

  • 04.08.2008 1:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: Recoton007
Lol, I guess I'll continue the pyramid too.

Posted by: halo3leader
OMG a mod!
It's not a quote pyramid until you quote the person who quoted the original.

  • 04.08.2008 4:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: Master Kim
Posted by: Recoton007
Lol, I guess I'll continue the pyramid too.

Posted by: halo3leader
OMG a mod!
It's not a quote pyramid until you quote the person who quoted the original.


Oops...

  • 04.08.2008 5:40 PM PDT

Slaying noobs since 2007.

Posted by: TUI_Obi_Wan
Posted by: Master Kim
Posted by: Recoton007
Lol, I guess I'll continue the pyramid too.

Posted by: halo3leader
OMG a mod!
It's not a quote pyramid until you quote the person who quoted the original.


Oops...

Crap...

  • 04.08.2008 5:44 PM PDT
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Yeah, we probably should cut that out, I want my legendary member back. Heroic is fine, but when you made legendary, you just can't settle for less.

Edit: This is gunna be weird but I swear you were heroic just a minute ago.

[Edited on 04.08.2008 6:04 PM PDT]

  • 04.08.2008 6:02 PM PDT
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I'm just gonna throw it out there that if that pyramid hits 5 or more quotes, someone's taking a vacation. Not only that, but we seem to have gone horribly off-topic in a thread that doesn't exactly suit this forum and is very close to being unsuitable for any forum.

  • 04.08.2008 6:08 PM PDT
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Reality is just a crutch for people who can't cope with drugs.
X-Fire: new420

Posted by: Desert Fox RWTF
Posted by: TUI_Obi_Wan
Posted by: Master Kim
Posted by: Recoton007
Lol, I guess I'll continue the pyramid too.

Posted by: halo3leader
OMG a mod!
It's not a quote pyramid until you quote the person who quoted the original.


Oops...

Crap...

Later.

  • 04.08.2008 6:32 PM PDT

Long live the Last Refuge!

No don't worry you still got another day, and once again.

OMG a mod posted twice in under two days in this forum!

[Edited on 04.08.2008 6:48 PM PDT]

  • 04.08.2008 6:48 PM PDT
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I agree with the entire concept that parents should manage this crap rather than the damn government. However if you honest to god think the government gives a flying -blam!- about your rights, then go google "Japanese Internment 1942"

Also these guys aren't doing it out of idealism or something, it's all bout the money folks.

  • 04.08.2008 6:55 PM PDT

Long live the Last Refuge!

Yep, the government doesn't give a -blam!- about you. They only want your money.

  • 04.08.2008 7:28 PM PDT
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Posted by: Captain K Mart
I'm just gonna throw it out there that if that pyramid hits 5 or more quotes, someone's taking a vacation. Not only that, but we seem to have gone horribly off-topic in a thread that doesn't exactly suit this forum and is very close to being unsuitable for any forum.


Sry Captain.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. So I was watching some old news clips of my all-american idol Jack Thompson (jking for all those who don't realize it) and in an interview on the morning show, he was talking about how there exists a legitimate argument that videogames are more than just forms of entertainment, and can cause people to go on crazy violent killing sprees.

I don't remember where I found the clip, but I have an excerpt of the video in an old user video that I made http://youtube.com/watch?v=me64O4uvOBY. Sry for the self-advertisement, but I honestly don't remember where I got the clip. It's number 3 on the list, if you just want to jump to it.

He referenced Halo (see, we are still on topic) as a game that was used by the army to psychologically train snipers. While his argument attempts to remove the idea that videogames are not at all harmful, very few "enlightened" (not ignorant) individuals would see this claim as completely ridiculous. He makes it seem as though these videogames breed nothing but insanity and resulting death, and while he supports his claims on occasion, he NEVER presents undisputable evidence. Instead he seems to be trying to manipulate parents and the government, in order to make the selling of games to minors illegal, and also in a way, promote his own image as the savior of our childrens' innocence.

I think he's delusional, but if anyone would honestly want a challenging debate with me playing the devil's advocate, I invite you to state your own case and support it with intelligible evidence.

PS: The Mods are here, now lets not scare them away. Enough with the pyramid of stupidity.

  • 04.08.2008 7:48 PM PDT
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Posted by: new420
Later.
Ooh, this will hurt.

--------------------------------------------------

Posted by: Recoton007
Sry Captain.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...
Back to kissing ass, pal?

[Edited on 04.08.2008 9:16 PM PDT]

  • 04.08.2008 9:15 PM PDT

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