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  • Subject: The Right To Die.
Subject: The Right To Die.
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Posted by: lobsterok
Like I keep saying, if it is made legal with certain restrictions, those restrictions will eventually decay. Look at contraception. Originally it was only given married couples and was called family planning instead of family prevention. Nowadays kids can get contraception and go -blam!- without a care, with the occasional "accident" which ruins their lives. Anyway, that's not the point.


Suicide isnt sex. teens dont crave suicide, so that example is way, way off. Sex is a lust, suicide is an end.


What if they would have survived. There may not be much chance, but there is almost always chance. Or what if a cure is invented the day after they die?

i dont knw where you live, but here on earth, 78 year old men dont just suddenly live another 78 years, tumers dont majically shrink to nothing, and cancer doesnt just stop. these people are going to die, no matter how much hope you have in them. ive gone over this.



The two are almost identical, except in the latter they have the choice. That just means some die instead of all. With the "slippery slope" argument that I keep rambling on about, that isn't very reassuring.

oh! so people should suffer and die because you dont find it reassuring that they want to end the pain! heres a tissue, because legaly or not, people are still going to do it. i support thier decision because life isnt worth living when you spend the rest of it lieing in bed waiting for it to end.

and how are the two i mentioned at all the same? freedom of choice vs. dictatorship. theres a slight difference there.

  • 01.30.2005 9:05 AM PDT
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Posted by: RandomlyIssued
Suicide isnt sex. teens dont crave suicide, so that example is way, way off. Sex is a lust, suicide is an end.

Posted by: lobsterok
that isn't the point


Posted by: RandomlyIssued
i dont knw where you live, but here on earth, 78 year old men dont just suddenly live another 78 years, tumers dont majically shrink to nothing, and cancer doesnt just stop. these people are going to die, no matter how much hope you have in them. ive gone over this.


Well of course everyone is going to die. However, you can't completely rule out medical progress. People who would have died 10 years ago can now be saved, and treatment isn't always implemented slowly. You could be euthenased the day before new treatment is implemented. It might not be "majically" curing, but it does happen.

As I said, do you want to be remembered for being brave or for giving up. You only die once. Everyone dreams of dying heroically, saving a child from a burning building or something. Suicide is far from heroic. I would call it cowardly.

The two are almost identical, except in the latter they have the choice. That just means some die instead of all. With the "slippery slope" argument that I keep rambling on about, that isn't very reassuring.

Posted by: RandomlyIssued
oh! so people should suffer and die because you dont find it reassuring that they want to end the pain!


Like I keep saying you should never give up, no amount of pain would make me take the coward's way out.

Posted by: RandomlyIssued
heres a tissue, because legaly or not, people are still going to do it. i support thier decision because life isnt worth living when you spend the rest of it lieing in bed waiting for it to end.


I can't stop people from breaking the law, but I can help to prevent the law from changing. People will always break the law, and I condemn them.

Life is always worth living. At least as far as this argument is concerned.

Posted by: RandomlyIssued
and how are the two i mentioned at all the same? freedom of choice vs. dictatorship. theres a slight difference there.


You misinterpreted that. I was saying that, although the principles are different, the end results are similar.

[Edited on 1/30/2005 9:49:57 AM]

  • 01.30.2005 9:49 AM PDT
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inviso...

  • 01.30.2005 9:49 AM PDT
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Posted by: RandomlyIssued
Posted by: CabooseMoose7103
Ah but it is. It doesn't matter if you are dieing. All that means is that your deadline is coming up (please pardon the pun). If you are dieing, use the time you have left, do something with your life. If you're dieing that, means you have nothing to lose. Your life is not being "thrown away" if a disease is killing you, only you can choose to throw it away, if you don't want to waste your life, then do something with it.


are you expecting these people to majically jump out of thier hospital beds and go hangliding for the last month of thier lives? hell no!

you have no idea what these people have to go through. they're trapped in a hospital, they have constant surgury, they're on medication (and they will be until they die) and they have no life. most dont even see the sunshine. so stop thinking so naive and start thinking about whats really happening regarding this issue.


Calm down, this is simply my opinion. I am entitled to my opinion just as much as you are. I think it was the French philosopher Montesquieu who once said "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it till the end." I understand that some people have physical limitations and cannot reasonably go off into the world. But there are other ways they can contribute, write a book, campaign to change a law, give counsel to others with the same problem.

I do know how these people feel. I have been taking medication since third grade in order to correct an imbalance in my blood. I only stopped last year after about seven years. I got lucky, I'm healthy now, but the problem would have killed me in another year or less, when it was caught. I had constant tests to ensure the problem wasn't getting worse. You probably have no idea what it's like to constantly wonder if you are dying. After that I decided not to waste my life, but to spend it.

I also know what it's like to not be those people and have to watch. My grandfather was sick for over a year with severe complications from diabetes and heart problems. I watched as it slowly became painful for him to live. He died this past April but you know what? He at least made the effort not to hurt his family and friends, he still tried to be there for everyone. He was in intense pain but he came to my birthday, seven days before he died. My grandfather had plenty of reason to kill himself by your reckoning, but he chose not to. He spent his life, rather than wasted it.

I have spoken my piece now and seem to have angered you. You find me naive and so I now bow out, and leave you, the elder and wiser, to discuss this further with the person of your choice.

  • 01.30.2005 10:02 AM PDT
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Posted by: RandomlyIssued
Suicide isnt sex. teens dont crave suicide, so that example is way, way off. Sex is a lust, suicide is an end.

Posted by: lobsterok
that isn't the point


so why bring it up?

Posted by: RandomlyIssued
i dont knw where you live, but here on earth, 78 year old men dont just suddenly live another 78 years, tumers dont majically shrink to nothing, and cancer doesnt just stop. these people are going to die, no matter how much hope you have in them. ive gone over this.


Posted by: lobsterok
Well of course everyone is going to die. However, you can't completely rule out medical progress. People who would have died 10 years ago can now be saved, and treatment isn't always implemented slowly. You could be euthenased the day before new treatment is implemented. It might not be "majically" curing, but it does happen.


no, it doesnt happen often at all. probably about 3 every 200 people who are terminally ill (hence the term terminally). a 17 year old boy in my school just randomly had heart failure and died. your amazing "Medical progress" gave him 30 years to live before he had problems. they also said he'd get through the operation. he didnt.

Medical science isnt as advanced as you'de like it to be. the people being referred to are definatly going to die. there is no hope for gods sake so stop saying there is. your acting like a child.

As I said, do you want to be remembered for being brave or for giving up. You only die once. Everyone dreams of dying heroically, saving a child from a burning building or something. Suicide is far from heroic. I would call it cowardly.

we all know what youde call it. i really dont think the people making the decision really care though.

The two are almost identical, except in the latter they have the choice. That just means some die instead of all. With the "slippery slope" argument that I keep rambling on about, that isn't very reassuring.

Posted by: RandomlyIssued
oh! so people should suffer and die because you dont find it reassuring that they want to end the pain!


Posted by: lobsterok
Like I keep saying you should never give up, no amount of pain would make me take the coward's way out.


like I keep saying, you have no -blam!- ing idea what kind of pain these people go through. not only do they know thier going to die, and they feel it happen very slowly and painfully. the decision to end all the suffering should be the decision of the victim, not the spectators.

your opinion of "the cowards way out" is very strange, by the way. you say its cowardous to end life early. i say its cowardous to take innocent people with you. i really cant see suicide as a cowards way out because it takes more guts to do it than it does to kill another person.

Posted by: RandomlyIssued
heres a tissue, because legaly or not, people are still going to do it. i support thier decision because life isnt worth living when you spend the rest of it lieing in bed waiting for it to end.


Posted by: lobsterok
I can't stop people from breaking the law, but I can help to prevent the law from changing. People will always break the law, and I condemn them.

Life is always worth living. At least as far as this argument is concerned.


as far as this arguments concerned? what the hell are you talking about? its as far as you're concerned. life isnt worth living when your too ill to do anything but sleep. i find it very offensive that your saying all dieing people in the world have something to look forward to in life, because they dont. that right there is false hope, and that doesn help anybody. if people want to die, they should, and no one else should be able to make that decision for them.

Posted by: RandomlyIssued
and how are the two i mentioned at all the same? freedom of choice vs. dictatorship. theres a slight difference there.


Posted by: lobsterok
You misinterpreted that. I was saying that, although the principles are different, the end results are similar.


no, because the ones who chose to live by your principals die from thier desease, and the ones who dont want to give in to thier illness get to skip through the painful crap that nobody on this planet should ever experience.

your views are very, very naive.

[Edited on 1/30/2005 10:07:41 AM]

  • 01.30.2005 10:05 AM PDT
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Posted by: CabooseMoose7103
Posted by: RandomlyIssued
Posted by: CabooseMoose7103
Ah but it is. It doesn't matter if you are dieing. All that means is that your deadline is coming up (please pardon the pun). If you are dieing, use the time you have left, do something with your life. If you're dieing that, means you have nothing to lose. Your life is not being "thrown away" if a disease is killing you, only you can choose to throw it away, if you don't want to waste your life, then do something with it.


are you expecting these people to majically jump out of thier hospital beds and go hangliding for the last month of thier lives? hell no!

you have no idea what these people have to go through. they're trapped in a hospital, they have constant surgury, they're on medication (and they will be until they die) and they have no life. most dont even see the sunshine. so stop thinking so naive and start thinking about whats really happening regarding this issue.


Calm down, this is simply my opinion. I am entitled to my opinion just as much as you are. I think it was the French philosopher Montesquieu who once said "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it till the end." I understand that some people have physical limitations and cannot reasonably go off into the world. But there are other ways they can contribute, write a book, campaign to change a law, give counsel to others with the same problem.

I do know how these people feel. I have been taking medication since third grade in order to correct an imbalance in my blood. I only stopped last year after about seven years. I got lucky, I'm healthy now, but the problem would have killed me in another year or less, when it was caught. I had constant tests to ensure the problem wasn't getting worse. You probably have no idea what it's like to constantly wonder if you are dying. After that I decided not to waste my life, but to spend it.

I also know what it's like to not be those people and have to watch. My grandfather was sick for over a year with severe complications from diabetes and heart problems. I watched as it slowly became painful for him to live. He died this past April but you know what? He at least made the effort not to hurt his family and friends, he still tried to be there for everyone. He was in intense pain but he came to my birthday, seven days before he died. My grandfather had plenty of reason to kill himself by your reckoning, but he chose not to. He spent his life, rather than wasted it.

I have spoken my piece now and seem to have angered you. You find me naive and so I now bow out, and leave you, the elder and wiser, to discuss this further with the person of your choice.


ya, my sis has a tumer and it wont ever go away. shes on medication for the rest of her life, and they're still not sure how serious it is. i also know what its like. she said if she ever is put in a position where shes going to die, she will end the pain. i totaly support that. ide never want to watch her die.

PS you didnt anger me. this is a debate. dont take anything here personally.

  • 01.30.2005 10:13 AM PDT
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im gunna go study for exams. ill be back on to argue later.

  • 01.30.2005 10:14 AM PDT
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I didn't take it personally, it just seemed that if we weren't careful we were going to start a flame war.

  • 01.30.2005 10:15 AM PDT
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Posted by: CabooseMoose7103
I didn't take it personally, it just seemed that if we weren't careful we were going to start a flame war.


dont worry. as long as we can keep this civilized, we should be fine.

  • 01.30.2005 11:26 AM PDT
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The United States of America-- STILL more rights than North Korea!
--New official U.S. motto.

Cronin's Law----The New Flood Drinking Game

Posted by: lobsterok
Posted by: RandomlyIssued
ok, what? mandatory? who said mandatory?


Like I keep saying, if it is made legal with certain restrictions, those restrictions will eventually decay. Look at contraception. Originally it was only given married couples and was called family planning instead of family prevention. Nowadays kids can get contraception and go -blam!- without a care, with the occasional "accident" which ruins their lives. Anyway, that's not the point.


But its a very good point. How long before they stop trying to prevent suicide altogether? It would start with euthenasia, and eventually all the measures in place to stop suicide would vanish... think suicide is a problem now? Think about what would happen then... something like 75% of all potential suicides are talked down... imagine if that wasn't the case... the suicide rate would quadruple!

  • 01.30.2005 12:05 PM PDT
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The United States of America-- STILL more rights than North Korea!
--New official U.S. motto.

Cronin's Law----The New Flood Drinking Game

This all comes down to morals. And religion. Simply put, I believe that suicide/euthanasia is wrong simply because it is against my religion. I won't say more because I don't want to break any rules.

  • 01.30.2005 12:14 PM PDT
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The United States of America-- STILL more rights than North Korea!
--New official U.S. motto.

Cronin's Law----The New Flood Drinking Game

This thread does not have the right to die.

  • 01.30.2005 4:17 PM PDT
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i, already, grow bored of this discussion. (too much reading)

  • 01.30.2005 4:23 PM PDT
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I believe if some one wants to kill themselves it's their choice. Just like it's thier choice to drop out of school, smoke crack, cheat on their wife and throw their life away like idiots.
Strategicly we shouldn't try to talk people out of suicide because it would help solve the problem of over population but it hurts when some one dies so we do what we can. I believe that suicide is unnatural. Everything on this planet revolves around the struggle to survive. Suicide is weak. It's taking the easy way out. If I was sick I would struggle to hold on to life until the last second. Only if I knew that I only had a few hours to live would I consider suicide. If I was in a tall building that was on fire and there was no way out I might jump rather than burn to death. I would also consider suicide if it was to protect some one else. I would take my own life before some one could torture information out of me.

  • 01.30.2005 5:28 PM PDT
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Posted by: Helljumper76
I believe if some one wants to kill themselves it's their choice. Just like it's thier choice to drop out of school, smoke crack, cheat on their wife and throw their life away like idiots.

Are any of those things on the same level as suicide? Sure smoking is a way to die sooner, but it isn't suicide. Dropping out of school or cheating on your wife is a whole different thing compared to Suicide. We aren't talking about ruining your life, we are talking about ending it.

  • 01.30.2005 5:48 PM PDT
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Posted by: Halifax
Posted by: Helljumper76
I believe if some one wants to kill themselves it's their choice. Just like it's thier choice to drop out of school, smoke crack, cheat on their wife and throw their life away like idiots.

Are any of those things on the same level as suicide? Sure smoking is a way to die sooner, but it isn't suicide. Dropping out of school or cheating on your wife is a whole different thing compared to Suicide. We aren't talking about ruining your life, we are talking about ending it.


No. Those things aren't as bad. I was just trying to get the point across that you can do what ever you want but that dosn't mean it's a good idea.

  • 01.30.2005 5:53 PM PDT
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The United States of America-- STILL more rights than North Korea!
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Cronin's Law----The New Flood Drinking Game

^Helljumper hit it on the head methinks.

  • 01.30.2005 6:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: Helljumper76
Posted by: Halifax
Posted by: Helljumper76
I believe if some one wants to kill themselves it's their choice. Just like it's thier choice to drop out of school, smoke crack, cheat on their wife and throw their life away like idiots.

Are any of those things on the same level as suicide? Sure smoking is a way to die sooner, but it isn't suicide. Dropping out of school or cheating on your wife is a whole different thing compared to Suicide. We aren't talking about ruining your life, we are talking about ending it.


No. Those things aren't as bad. I was just trying to get the point across that you can do what ever you want but that dosn't mean it's a good idea.

Oh I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

  • 01.30.2005 6:22 PM PDT

gamer tag: CrazyChinchilla

I dont think God intended for anyone to kill themselves, there is always a way out of everything, and if God decides your last few years should be spent in pain, then you should thank God for what he is going to do when you are in heaven, I hope this doesnt get locked cause of me, but who cares.

  • 01.30.2005 6:33 PM PDT
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Posted by: tex mex matt
I dont think God intended for anyone to kill themselves, there is always a way out of everything, and if God decides your last few years should be spent in pain, then you should thank God for what he is going to do when you are in heaven, I hope this doesnt get locked cause of me, but who cares.


Yet god gave us free will. Hmm odd isnt it?

  • 01.30.2005 6:35 PM PDT

Devil is Double is Deuce and Joker always trumps Deuce.

Free Willy was a good movie. Too bad they blew him up and BBQ'd him when the movies were done.

  • 01.30.2005 6:37 PM PDT
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And then theres the issue of whether or not cloth feels pain.

Very controversial in Mozambique.

  • 01.30.2005 6:40 PM PDT
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Actualy Willy just died a few months ago. Serious.

  • 01.30.2005 6:41 PM PDT
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To a fatal turtle-wound to the dorsal guiding feather.

  • 01.30.2005 6:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: Banshee Barron
To kill yourself is to give up. I find this practice insulting, there is always hope, and to give up life is worse than death. If I were meant to die for whatever reason, I'd let that fate come to me in whatever form it took. Suicide is for those who cannot cope with the life that they have, and any life can be coped with. They kill themselves needlessly when they could have become something great. You should always go out fighting, because this life is the only life you have. How could you NOT give it up without a fight?


We're all obviously all Halo fans here. The Master Cheif never goes down without a fight. Never. So why should we?

  • 01.30.2005 7:02 PM PDT