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Subject: The Power of Spam.
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Hello fellow B.net fans, and mods,

I have just recently joined Bungie.net. I love the site, I love the content, I love the games. But the forums need help.

I have been to many, many forums during my short lifetime, but never have I been to a forum that is spammed as bad as this one.

It is so bad, I find it hard to even enjoy and/or browse the forums. As a professional website, I think that Bungie.net needs to address this issue, or they will lose many, many fans to other, spam-free sites.

I see several options that could be used to fix this problem. Not just one would necessarily need to be implemented. Several and/or all could be sucessfully implemented and greatly reduce the amount of spam in these forums.

* Increase the mods. In one forum I frequent, the respectable users, after having enough time to prove themself, are given mod abilities. They can delete, lock, or move spam. There is no way just a handfull of people can keep all of the posts on this forum in check. There must be more moderators.
* There is enough of this "snipped" crud in the topics. If a topic or post is worthless, delete it. I would be greatly surprised if this forum program does not allow for the deletage of posts and/or topics.
* One thing that would be very effective is a post limit per day. Users can post no more than say, 5 posts every 24 hours. They can spend them however they wish, but once they post 5 posts, they can not post anymore until the next time period rolls around. If they do not use up their 5 posts, they simply lose those posts. No 'rollover' posts! This limits the amount of spam somebody can post in one day.

Clearly, something must be done. I love Bungie, I love Halo. But these forums are increasingly hard to navigate.

Thank you for your time.

- Yolegoman

  • 06.21.2004 1:14 PM PDT

* We now have seven mods
* Deleting sometimes results in a massive database failure
* I don't like the idea of post limits, especially five a day!

  • 06.21.2004 1:17 PM PDT
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I'm only 15, but my main hobby is creating dynamic websites using the free programming languages PHP & MySQL, and I must say, I am greatly disappointed in either
* The programming abilities of Bungie and Ideal Science,
or
* The ASPX / Database of Microsoft,
if moderators can not even delete entries from a database without creating a database failure. Such a simple feature in PHP and MySQL. The structure of the database in this website must be crap.

Yolego, who was probably a bit harsh.

  • 06.21.2004 1:26 PM PDT

Well, there are still a few bugs to work out. Especially for a database of this size, and a site of this complexity.

[Edited on 6/21/2004 1:28:36 PM]

  • 06.21.2004 1:28 PM PDT
Subject: Database Structure for Forums
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I'm sorry, but I still don't understand. I hope nobody minds I talk tech for a little bit.

The most efficient way I have found of creating forums is to have 3 tables in the database, + 1 for users. This is just main, raw data here, in the real world you would need many more. But if you strip down all the extras, this is what a forum has.

Tables:

***************************
* forum_categories // Holds the categories. I.E, New Mombasa, Flood, Septagon.
* forum_topics // Holds topics, I.E, The Power of Spam.
* forum_posts // Holds posts, such as this one: Database Structure for Forums
***************************

Now, if I was to delete a forum post, it would have no effect on any of the rest of the site. Queries are normally run with a while loop. The program continues to print posts related to the topic until it either has no more posts, or it is time to print the 'next page' link.

If I was to delete a forum topic, I would have three options:
* Leave the posts linked to the deleted topic as before, effectively making them in "cybersleep" and of no use to anybody.
* Delete all the posts linked to the deleted topic.
* Assign them to a different topic.

Therefore, as you can see, even doing nothing to the posts after deleting a topic has no ill effect on the database that I can see. It simply takes up extra space with no return. Hardly a problem.

As for deleting posts, that is even less of a problem. Posts have nothing _under_ them. Delete one, and it is gone, and nobody knows it existed.

There must be something wrong in my theology here, and I would love to be enlightened. I plan to make a career out of dynamic websites, and learning the ins and outs of them is the way I spend a considerable amount of my time.

On a related note, as for max of 5 posts, I too find that restrictive. I have already made 4 worthwhile posts today, and they were all quite long. But I still plan to make more.

- Yolegoman

[Edit: I had a few typos here and there. I apologize.]

[Edited on 6/21/2004 1:40:46 PM]

  • 06.21.2004 1:39 PM PDT
Subject: The Power of Spam.

Posted by: goweb
* We now have seven mods
* Deleting sometimes results in a massive database failure
* I don't like the idea of post limits, especially five a day!
Actually, goweb, there are only six mods.

  • 06.21.2004 1:45 PM PDT
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Nope, there are se7en.
goweb, MakaVeli4LIfe1, Reiginko, Shishka, Sigma, stosh and Yoozel.

  • 06.21.2004 1:48 PM PDT

Ohhhh.I didn't know MakaVeil4LIfe1 was.Why didn't they make Rip Saw a Mod??

  • 06.21.2004 1:51 PM PDT
Subject: Database Structure for Forums

Most forums have separate tables for threads and posts. I have no idea why this problem occurs - it just does.

  • 06.21.2004 2:16 PM PDT
Subject: The Power of Spam.

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Posted by: Yolegoman
I'm only 15, but my main hobby is creating dynamic websites using the free programming languages PHP & MySQL, and I must say, I am greatly disappointed in either
* The programming abilities of Bungie and Ideal Science,
or
* The ASPX / Database of Microsoft,
if moderators can not even delete entries from a database without creating a database failure. Such a simple feature in PHP and MySQL. The structure of the database in this website must be crap.

Yolego, who was probably a bit harsh.


Now, now, that isn't very nice. There was a bug in the post repeater in the initial release that caused a race condition when a few seperate things happened at the same time. It wasn't a database problem, it was a threading issue. It happens when you deal with large, multithreaded, high-usage systems. It was fixed a few weeks ago, I guess it just wasn't communicated to the mods that they can use the buttons again.

As for your "skills", I'd like to see you write a bug free site for tens of thousands of unique visitors that gets the volume of posts we do - and then not charge for access. No? I thought so. Your suggestion that mySQL could handle the same kind of load we put on our clustered SQL Server shows that you really should learn that certain tools are not appropriate for certain situations. Good database, mySQL, but not for a project of this size. You are generally correct with your previous assessment of how to approach a web based forum, but your ideas break down as the users and posts approach the millions. Most forums don't even get close to this level, so most programmers have no idea how to deal with it. This forum is tested to around ten million posts/threads/users (yes, we did fill it up) and it is still just as fast provided the web servers don't run out of connection sockets. Trust us, we know what we're doing.

Back on topic, we are investigating several "creative" solutions to the various idiots on this forum. None of them include "banning by IP" or any such silly term you guys toss around. You can't ban by IP, since IPs aren't tied to a user. No, we have a few extra tools for mods coming, and a special superuser tool, and a possible policy change or two. All of which will be carefully considered and tested before release and won't impact anybody who isn't a jerk.



[Edited on 6/21/2004 3:00:28 PM]

  • 06.21.2004 2:54 PM PDT
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[color=crimson]"Woot"! ;][/color]

  • 06.21.2004 2:57 PM PDT

Add the email above to your MSN to contact me with emergencies on the forum.

FOR CARNAGE, APPLY WITHIN
Marathon, Myth, and MORE (Under construction)

NO U! A Webcomic.
Mob Of Angry Peasants Chat

Well *snap*

  • 06.21.2004 2:58 PM PDT
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Thank God for Achronos. I'm glad we have such intelligent users and Overlords, especially amidst all these idiots.

[Edited on 6/21/2004 4:15:38 PM]

  • 06.21.2004 4:15 PM PDT

yoo•zel- ('yoo-zhul): slang: vb.

Officium quod Fidelitas.

*sniffle* I love you Tom! Now, when do we get these big guns? =)

  • 06.21.2004 4:41 PM PDT
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Posted by: Yolegoman
* Increase the mods. In one forum I frequent, the respectable users, after having enough time to prove themself, are given mod abilities. They can delete, lock, or move spam. There is no way just a handfull of people can keep all of the posts on this forum in check. There must be more moderators.


I like this idea, because I really think it's unfair for you guys to be alone in monitoring the spam. You guys can't be here 24 hours a day, you have lives(I think...), but it is a 24 hour/day problem. Not saying I should be a mod, but maybe make some sort of system, so you can tell who qualifies to have some mod powers, even if they aren't complete. That way the spam can be controlled more efficiently, and more often.

[Edited on 6/21/2004 4:44:27 PM]

  • 06.21.2004 4:42 PM PDT
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They should just have a warning level type thing. A person could warn a spammer, and when it reaches 5 warnings, the mods are alerted. When it reaches 25 warnings, that user cannot post again until it gets below 25. once it hits 100 warnings, they are banned for a month >:) The warning level is reduced by 1 at the top of every hour. And the mods could reduce the warning level themselves, if they have been falsely warned. To keep -blam!-tards from warning good forum goers, you could only warn a person once a day, and cant warn more than 5 people a day. Also, people cant warn, until they've been a member for 7 days.

  • 06.21.2004 5:22 PM PDT
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It sounds like AIM. That would be nice.

  • 06.21.2004 5:27 PM PDT

Spamming Bungie since 2004!
Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.
GT-I Final I (i's)
Plz uze prper inglish n ur poasts!11! it makez it eazeer 2 reed!

Posted by: SilentHunter
They should just have a warning level type thing. A person could warn a spammer, and when it reaches 5 warnings, the mods are alerted. When it reaches 25 warnings, that user cannot post again until it gets below 25. once it hits 100 warnings, they are banned for a month >:) The warning level is reduced by 1 at the top of every hour. And the mods could reduce the warning level themselves, if they have been falsely warned. To keep -blam!-tards from warning good forum goers, you could only warn a person once a day, and cant warn more than 5 people a day. Also, people cant warn, until they've been a member for 7 days.
That won't work. People will spam,get a warning or two, wait an hour until the warnings are gone, then spam again. Then you'd have to get 25 to not post again, and that's alot for the people who do the plan above. Then they wait a few hours for the alerts to go down, then continue the spam. And how would they get warnings anyway? 100 is WAY too much to get anyway. One more thing, it wouldn't be fair to members;)

  • 06.21.2004 5:43 PM PDT

Add the email above to your MSN to contact me with emergencies on the forum.

FOR CARNAGE, APPLY WITHIN
Marathon, Myth, and MORE (Under construction)

NO U! A Webcomic.
Mob Of Angry Peasants Chat

After the abuse endured by the forum dwellers, at the first sign of spam likely they wil get the 25 needed to stop them in their tracks...

  • 06.21.2004 5:45 PM PDT
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Well, you figure, everyone who opens a spam thread will warn them. that's well over 25. Plus, them waiting a few hours to wait for the warnings to go down, still beats the hell out of CONSTANT spam :)

  • 06.21.2004 6:30 PM PDT
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In reply to Achronos

I stand corrected. Thank you for taking the time to explain it all to me.

I was quite foolish in assuming that simply deleting posts caused a database failure, even when that is what goweb said. Goweb is nice, but the comment "deleting entries causes database failure" defies programming logic.

I'm very sorry I came across as a "n00b jerk with l33t skilz", and I will do my very best to ensure it doesn't happen again. You guys are awesome, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

Besides, spamming is something we all need to learn to weed around, for I see no perfect (or even ideal) solution on the horizon.

;)

Again, I am very sorry, and I hope all of you will forgive me.

- Yolegoman

  • 06.21.2004 7:25 PM PDT
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Achronos is the only one that im kinda afraid of. its his avatar, i laugh at shishkas.

  • 06.21.2004 7:40 PM PDT
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Achronos is not one to be feared, but one to be worshipped. I can only hope, and dream, that I will someday have a job that is a third as cool as his is. Of course, with coolness comes stress, and from what I've seen of him, Achronos handles stress well.

Yolego, feeling a bit insignificant tonight :)

  • 06.21.2004 8:02 PM PDT

yoo•zel- ('yoo-zhul): slang: vb.

Officium quod Fidelitas.

Just don't stand in front of him when he is mad.

But we have four new mods awaiting powers and will be looking after forums. This will be almost total coverage.

  • 06.21.2004 8:44 PM PDT
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Mods r -blam!-, you very well should be afraid of Achronos, because he's the Bungie.net overlord. As for Shish, If somone was running at you, yelling "Frog Blast the Vent Core!", you would be afraid...

  • 06.21.2004 8:46 PM PDT

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