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  • Subject: Forerunners CANNOT be Humans.
Subject: Forerunners CANNOT be Humans.
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If you believe in creation then it came from the creator, if you believe in the "big bang" then it somehow exploded into existance from materials that somehow got there.

  • 04.19.2004 6:07 PM PDT
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no one knows, no one will ever know, thats where other theories come to play
but no cell that we know of right now didnt come from another cell

  • 04.19.2004 6:10 PM PDT
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can you think of a cell that does not come from another cell that can be proven?

[Edited on 4/19/2004 6:12:38 PM]

  • 04.19.2004 6:11 PM PDT
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well i have to do my homework, i am going to check back later to see if any of you thought of something, bye

  • 04.19.2004 6:16 PM PDT
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I have company I'll brb, but if you are still in high school I can assure you you don't want to have this debate with me.

  • 04.19.2004 6:47 PM PDT

I hate everything, but it's not my fault.

To the people deriding the idiots who would believe what was in the Bible literally, I don't beleive everything literally. I believe that God created the Universe somehow, but not necessarily by willing it into existance, or the process taking six human days(God has different sense of time than humans, to Him six days could be eons, or six seconds. If this sounds confusing, thats because it is and I don't fully understand it myself.
First I believe that the Big Bang might have been what happened, but maybe not. But if it was what happened, then God definately put the softball-sized/room-sized/period at the end of this sentence sized(I hear different sizes every year in science class) thing there. Then God made it explode, and I don't see how anybody could beleive that this thing just came into existance by itself, and then exploded creating the Universe. And this is probably what happened if God didn't will everything into existance.
Secondly, Shael is right, there is no good evidence supporting macro-evolution, or creation for that matter. My personal stance is that macro-evolution could have been what happened, but there is no way in hell it could have happened completely by chance.
And I will leave why I believe in serving God to another post.
And I am in high school. :P

[Edited on 4/19/2004 6:55:22 PM]

  • 04.19.2004 6:54 PM PDT
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Read my post

  • 04.19.2004 6:55 PM PDT
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A lot of great evidence has been shown, either proving Forerunners aren't/are Humans at some point in time. I have to say, I can't agree with either side at the moment. Serpx has brought up many ideas I'm sure no one has thought of. I know where he is coming from, for I am also a 15 year old Freshman highschool student. We attend the same school, and have many discussions that have to do with the origins of, the Covenant, Humans, and the Forerunner. We have come up with many great ideas and theories, and this, by far is the best I've seen from anyone. If the big bang theory were true, along with Miller and Urey's experiments, it directly points to the fact that the Forerunners CANNOT be Humans. But as many have said, mankind does not know exactly for sure how the Earth formed, and where the Humans originated. Yes, Serpx is right, many modern experiments of Miller's have came very close to proving that the Earth was once a very harsh environment. Early Earth Atmosphere+Lighting=Amino Acids residing in liquid H2O. But....if that were not true, no one can truely tell where the Forerunner came from. Many other things also suggest that Forerunners we not in fact humans. Like, the mysterious crystals found in Côte d'Azur, and in the mines of Reach. If those are pieces of Forerunner technology, and they were in fact Humans, don't you think modern Humans of the time would recognize it? Yeah, sure...Spartans do recognize it to some extent, but they still aren't exaclty sure what it is. Then you have to look at what they do know of the mysterious technologies...if they do know to some extent to how to work it...it does suggest a relation between the two races. No one knows for sure right now, except Bungie, who is making us wait until Halo 2 to find all of the true races. Many great therories have been brought up, but none have been fully proven, as you can tell from my post. I give great examples that suggest both sides...Forerunners aren't Human...then I give evidence that they aren't. Keep these theories coming, it only leads us close to all knowledge of the Halo Unvierse, and strangely enough, even our own Universe.

  • 04.19.2004 7:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: Bring the Noise
I have company I'll brb, but if you are still in high school I can assure you you don't want to have this debate with me.

from what i have stated there is nothing that you can disprove

  • 04.19.2004 7:13 PM PDT
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Posted by: Shael
The original poster missed one vital point in his theory, you assume the big bang actualy happened and that macro-evolution is real. There is an abundance of blatantly obvious evidence that proves Macro-evolution to be false and precious little evidence to prove it to be true and even then most of it is made up or doesn't make sense at all. I can go into this further if you want me to, but I just thought I'd point this out.



Ok, I'm back. Wow how wrong on so many levels. Let's start with the first part. You do realize that most creationist scientist claim the big bang theory as fact don't you? In fact i'm nearly sure the pope even agrees, I do know that he agrees that the earth is more than 6,000 years old as the bible claims. They however believe that the theory gives basis to the creationist view (all of that stuff couldn't have just been there god must have done it). Which is on the verge of being proven false. I'll get into that later if the debate continues.
On to the second part of your statement. There is 0 blatently obvious evidence to disproves Macro-evolution. In fact there is no evidence to disprove it, It just has not been witnessed because of the amount of time it takes. We can look only to the past, not at the present. Creationist will say it has never been seen so it is false, however you cannot see the wind blow, perhaps you'd like to argue that it doesn't? Further still without macro-evolution there would be no micro-evolution (survival of the fittest, Darwin), and vice versa.
Perhaps you should look into what macro-evolution is before you say such things. I don't think you quite understand the process, and what it really does enough to say anything on the matter. If you need help finding some reading material on it, I would be glad to help you.

  • 04.19.2004 9:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: NightAvenger
Posted by: Bring the Noise
I have company I'll brb, but if you are still in high school I can assure you you don't want to have this debate with me.

from what i have stated there is nothing that you can disprove




Oh, well let's see

Posted by: NightAvenger
i feel somewhat bad for you, its just a game, dont take it so serious, but we didnt not come from single celled organisms, god created us, and we do change, but not from single celled organisms, that will never be proven, cuz we cannot go back in time, no one will ever truely know how everything came to be, but if you believe in the big bang theory, answer me this question, what the hell caused the big bang? cuz if you use that logic, everything in this universe was caused by something else, so something must have caused the big bang, and that something is god



I don't need to disprove you, you disprove yourself. Let's take a look at what you just said.

"everything in this universe was caused by something else"

"so something must have cause the big bang, and that something is god"

If you believe the first to be true, the second cannot, because that would say that god would have had to be created, Thus eliminating him from being god. If god caused the big bang, then something caused god, so the big bang theory holds no basis for the explantion of god and creationism.

  • 04.19.2004 10:22 PM PDT
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Posted by: Shael
If you believe in creation then it came from the creator, if you believe in the "big bang" then it somehow exploded into existance from materials that somehow got there.



LoL, the irony in that post. If you believe the big bang theory to be true, then you should know the countless sciences of our race support it. You quest the knowledge needed to eventually one day find the truth, whatever that may be. And know that with new knowledge available everyday that science conforms to the new evidence. You also objectivly try to answer to awkward questions outwardly, as opposed to sinking in, and giving the answer because god did it. However if you believe in creation, Then you believe that some magical being, that has absolutely no explaination for existance, Created men from dust. Now that may sound simple when you spin it(god created everything), however to think that a magical, unexplainable being created humans (with millions of complex self replicating cells, complex sytems, least of which the nervous sytem, and complex chemical induced reactions) from dust is to say the least foolish, and a cop out.

  • 04.19.2004 10:38 PM PDT
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i have been reading the blah blah that SPERX has been saying!!!.... y dont u cool ur brain down before it overheats ok!!!!! shut the hell up about f**king DNA and reall life crap and talk about theries for halo like all the normal people here!!!!!!!!! if i ever see u in reall life... I WILL KILL U!!!!! WATCHOUT U BRAINFREAK!

AND SPERX... LOOK WAT YOUVE DONE.. YOU HAVE BRAINWASHED EVERYONES MIND.. NOW THERE ALL TALK ING ABOUT BLA BLA LIKE U!!! INSTEAED OF HALO 2!!!

I H8 U!

  • 04.20.2004 1:39 AM PDT
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LOL. My apologizes for bringing in the theory of evolution to Halo -- I already knew speculations would arise. But, I believe it's all right to share your side of the story, for the sakes of us, the fan base of Halo, getting anywhere with our own thoughts and theories.

Even if Halo is "just a game", we all like going at it on their storyline. Isn't that right?

Their storyline is a masterpiece, and I'm sure Bungie loves for us to post our thoughts, theories, etc. to see if we can get a crack onto it.

  • 04.20.2004 5:12 AM PDT
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Bring the noise, I know what macro-evolution is: The hypothesis that the same processes which work in micro-evolution can, over eons of time, transform an organism into a completely different kind of organism.

For macro-evolution to be true, it would have to add information to an organisms genetic code allowing it to change from its previous limits. When Darwin made his hypothesis on evolution they had not yet studied biology to extent that we have today and did not know about this. But lets say some kind of radiation or something else changed an organisms genetic code, and lets say that organism was the single aquatic cell which is believed to have evolved into everything. If this is the case we should be digging up fossils of all kinds of missing links which would bridge the gap between a single aquatic cell and the Hundreds of Thousands of organsisms that exist today, but the fact is we haven't. Not one valid, proven missing link has been found. We have found an aboundance of fossils from all sorts of creatures, but none have been found in the long history of the earth that bridge the gap between them. I challange you to show me one "missing link" that has not been proven false. Besides the proof in the Fossil record that evolution is false, we have the Geological cloumn aswell, one of Darwins biggest sources of evidence for his hypothesis:

When Darwin first studied this, he came to the conclusion that the farther down you go in the earths crust, the simpler things get. Now Darwin did not have the benifit of microscopic analysis or detailed explanations of how things work back then, if he did he would have known that there is no such thing as a simple life form, but forgeting that if you look at the geological column you will come to the conclusion that the farther down you go the simpler things are, just like Darwin. However the column you will most likely be shown in public schools and most other places is not what the column actualy looks like. 95% of the the fossils we turn up are clams, even as far down as the so called "simple liforms", thus the geoligical column realy only represents about 5% of the actual fossil record.

Therefore the evolutionists ignore the vast majority of the record and concentrate only on the organisms in their column. Another point against this is how the Strata(Distinct layers of rock in the earths crust) actualy formed. Most scientists today believed it all formed naturaly dust and dirt getting hardened by pressure and the sun over eons of time after which another layer of strata would form. Accepting this Darwin decided that the farther back in the earths crust something is, the older it is, which is realy a logical statement. However the problem with it and the whole idea of the geoligical column being good evidence for macroevolution is that scientists have observed catastrophies(such as volcanos erupting[which happen{ed/s} alot], erthquakes, floods etc.) that will lay down many layers of dirt and rock over a very short amount of time, so all these layers of strata could either have formed naturaly or have gotten moved around and formed by a great catastrophy(Noahs flood for creationists), or even just got realy mixed up by the natural occurance of smaller catastrophies. So already two of the key sources of evidence(the fossil record and the geological column) are either proven false or open to alot of contreversy.

Another earlier source of evidence for macro-evolution is strucural homology, back in Darwins time it was thought that Structural Homology provided evidence that evolution was real because if you compare the forearm of alot of creatures you will see that alot of them are similar in the types of bones they have. For example Man, the Bird and the Bat all have a humerus bone, a radius, an unla, carpals and a few others aswell. The problem is that with the advent of Mendelian Genetics scientists finialy were able to understand how organisms pass traits to eachother. If structural homology was the result of a common ancestry among organisms that fact should show up in the genetic code of organisms with similar traits. For example, the Bat, bird and Man should all have in the DNA similar parts of information regarding their forearms because the information would have come from the same common ancestor. But it doesn't, therefore providing evidence against evolution rather than for it.

I could go into this more, but I am tired and I doubt anyone will actualy read all this. And as for the big bang, I don't believe it happened, but if it did something would have to put the materials there to make it happen. I don't care what some scientist thinks.

[Edited on 4/20/2004 8:02:22 AM]

  • 04.20.2004 8:00 AM PDT
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ONE: Cant answer that...
TWO: I that the Forerunners are a "mother" race so they colonised different worlds (Earth, Covie Planet and so on...) and developed diffrently so that they became Humans, Covies and so on!
THREE: Knew that..

[Edited on 4/20/2004 8:43:27 AM]

  • 04.20.2004 8:41 AM PDT
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Posted by: Bring the Noise
Posted by: Shael
If you believe in creation then it came from the creator, if you believe in the "big bang" then it somehow exploded into existance from materials that somehow got there.



LoL, the irony in that post. If you believe the big bang theory to be true, then you should know the countless sciences of our race support it. You quest the knowledge needed to eventually one day find the truth, whatever that may be. And know that with new knowledge available everyday that science conforms to the new evidence. You also objectivly try to answer to awkward questions outwardly, as opposed to sinking in, and giving the answer because god did it. However if you believe in creation, Then you believe that some magical being, that has absolutely no explaination for existance, Created men from dust. Now that may sound simple when you spin it(god created everything), however to think that a magical, unexplainable being created humans (with millions of complex self replicating cells, complex sytems, least of which the nervous sytem, and complex chemical induced reactions) from dust is to say the least foolish, and a cop out.


Or we could go by your explanation and say that humans (with millions of complex self replicating cells, complex sytems, least of which the nervous sytem, and complex chemical induced reactions) and the rest of the perfectly harmonious unirverse that works together with unimaginable synchronization and detail just accidently happened by chance from a few chemicals or something that came out of no where and exploded into our undefinably complex universe. From a single cell with its perfect methods of locomtion, transformation of food into energy and reproduction, to the endless reaches of space which are work together in a delicate balance, to the wonders of our own perfectly balanced world with ecosystems that continualy redistribute energy, water and all matter in a never ending cycle. How can you think that all of that happened by chance? If just one factor was off, our whole existance would be gone. For instance lets say that the big bang had failed to create one of the millions of different mircoscopic cells that help to decompose certain materials, sooner or later that material would pile up so much and the world would become uninhabitable. Or maybe the big bang created an extra element which would quickly uspet the the balance in things. Or maybe the sun was just a little closer and the world would soon become to hot to live in. Things like this don't happen by chance, they are created on purpose.

  • 04.20.2004 8:59 AM PDT
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LOL. My apologizes for bringing in the theory of evolution to Halo -- I already knew speculations would arise. But, I believe it's all right to share your side of the story, for the sakes of us, the fan base of Halo, getting anywhere with our own thoughts and theories.

Even if Halo is "just a game", we all like going at it on their storyline. Isn't that right?

Their storyline is a masterpiece, and I'm sure Bungie loves for us to post our thoughts, theories, etc. to see if we can get a crack onto it.


No need to apologise, this is a good debate.

I personally don't believe in god, but I believe that evolution is a pretty good theory. However there are many questions still remaining in science.
Serpx you speak of these experiments as if they are fact. All well and good, but 500 years ago we KNEW that the world was flat, and that going too far would have us over the edge. Now we KNOW about DNA and RNA and all the other things that make us us. Don't get too enamored of scientific theories. Maybe in 50 or 100 years time we will look back on those theories and laugh at how misguided those idiots were.

And to you religious people out there grinning your heads off at the science guy being told that he might one day be proved wrong, keep in mind that science is the modern day explanation for a universe that we in all fairness know not too much about. Religion is the explanation as it stood hundreds and even thousands of years ago.

Religion was our explanation. It was disproved by science. Many people though, are still religious. One day when science is disproved, there will still be believers in science. The whole religion vs science debate is nothing more than the evolution of our own beliefs, and we should respect each others beliefs as such.

And i still think the forerunners were human

  • 04.20.2004 9:24 AM PDT
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I'm new to this thread, but it is pretty apparent that one very important thing is being forgotten, what if it was all here to begin with?
Now, I know that I'll be argued with, but whit if the physical universe has always existed exactly how it is now? what if everything that is here has simply always been here, with each individual piece of matter following the same typical path of existance of formation, duration, desruction, repetition? The idea that something as vast as the universe could always exist with the same amount of matter eternally is widley disputed because something can't simply have ALWAYS existed. "Everything started somewhere, everything was created." What about God? "Except God. He's special." If something as powerful and absolute as god has always existed, who's to say something as powerful and absolute as the universe itself hasn't simply always existed and that the reason that there are so freakin' many weird things in this universe is simply due to the fact that it's been around for eternity? Because that would give the entire universe an eternity of evolution and an eternity of cause and effect of random factors to allow the universe, and our world, consequently, to become what it is today and what it will be in the future. And that thing about matter existing eternally as well? it's been proven that matter can never be destroyed on an absolutely basic level. That matter could simply recycle itseld infinitely through a path of events; being consumed, being grouped with other matter, being converted to energy, etc.
And if you believe that it's impossible for that to be true because there's no way there's that much matter in the universe, look at it this way: if the universe is infinite,it could hold an infinite amount of matter.

I hope my little speech has been enlightening upon my outlook and I would gladly accept any criticisms or question on or about my ideas.

  • 04.20.2004 9:32 AM PDT
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Religion was not disproved, and Christianity isn't technicaly a religion anyway. And maybe I should rephrase my earlier statement the macro-evolution is false: While I believe it to be false, it cannot be proven either way that it is true or false, but that the evidence stacked against it is more plentiful and convincing then the evidence supporting it(if there is any). Science and Religion have always been around and will always be around till the end of time, they go hand in hand.

[Edited on 4/20/2004 9:40:20 AM]

  • 04.20.2004 9:33 AM PDT
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If you are a Christian who believes that the Bible is right, then in a sense the Universe has been around forever. Because before God created the univerese there was no such thing as time, so technicaly the universe has been around since the beggining of time.

[Edited on 4/20/2004 9:38:44 AM]

  • 04.20.2004 9:38 AM PDT
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Will y'all get a dictionary, and stop mutilating the word theory? I think it's the funneist thing when someone says "that's just a theory", as if it has no relevence. A theory is a concept or idea that has held up to many tests, and never had conclusive evidence to disprove it.
Now that that's out of the way, personally I lean towards the whole time-travel self equating forerunner/human history idea, but at the end of the day, it is just a video game ;D (although, many would argue, Halo goes far beyond JUST a video game). The only way that we're going to find out though, is when we play Halo 2, lol, although it would be alot easier to just throw around a bunch of hypotesis (I think that's the word many of you are looking for) than to wait for it and eventually go out of our minds with anticipation.

  • 04.20.2004 9:42 AM PDT
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man you guys keep incorporating all this -blam!- about how the earth came to be but your forgetting that halo is just a game it is not real life so stop talking about Dna Rna and the protiens that make them halo 2 is a gma enot real is a gma and not reall life. when it comes out we will play it and know stop wasting your time talking abouthow our earth came to be holy -blam!-

  • 04.20.2004 9:45 AM PDT
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Heh, I just like political/religious/scientific discussions.

  • 04.20.2004 9:46 AM PDT
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LoL I present to you just how desperate creationist are getting clicky

  • 04.20.2004 12:37 PM PDT