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Subject: Of arguments and flame wars.

Mods, I have a question for you. Where do you draw the line between an argument and a flame war? To me, at least, the line has been almost completely blurred as of late. Disagreeing with anybody and arguing your point out has been almost universally looked down upon after Bungie.net’s upgrade.

So where is the line? Or are arguments dead and gone- thrown out with the old Bungie.net?




  • 06.23.2004 5:08 PM PDT
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I'm not responding to you

That part about "he being a 40-year old woman" is still beading heavy on my mind

Eh, but I can shake it off though :)

And for your question: I don't know yet, still waiting on Sketch

  • 06.23.2004 5:10 PM PDT
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I don't think it's a terribly complex issue. As soon as someone ceases thinking rationally and the insults commence, it's no longer a "debate."
But then ask yourself, what is an appropriate argument? There are many contradictions that could be derived from rules applied to conflicts of varying nature.
If it's an issue involving another member's personal forum habits (say incorrect board usage), for example, sarcastic comments and borderline insults are inherent. This would be grounds for being labeled 'flaming' in an argument pertaining to, say, a certain aspect of a game.

I think that is where the lines become blurred. Heh, I guess it is a terribly complex issue!

[Edited on 6/23/2004 6:00:41 PM]

  • 06.23.2004 5:57 PM PDT

Spamming Bungie since 2004!
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Posted by: Surge
I don't think it's a terribly complex issue. As soon as someone ceases thinking rationally and the insults commence, it's no longer a "debate."
But then ask yourself, what is an appropriate argument? There are many contradictions that could be derived from rules applied to conflicts of varying nature.
If it's an issue involving another member's personal forum habits (say incorrect board usage), for example, sarcastic comments and borderline insults are inherent. This would be grounds for being labeled 'flaming' in an argument pertaining to, say, a certain aspect of a game.
I think that is where the lines become blurred.
^^^^What he said. That's a really good explanation.

  • 06.23.2004 6:00 PM PDT
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My opinion may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

  • 06.23.2004 6:20 PM PDT
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Yo Halo53, I'm real happy for you and I'ma let you finish, but Beyonce had one of the best bungie.net profiles of all time. OF ALL TIME!

Posted by: Surge
As soon as someone ceases thinking rationally and the insults commence, it's no longer a "debate."


Yes. When people start making fun of each other and don't just argue. Example.

Person 1: I like duel wielding.
Person 2: I don't
1: Why not?
2: Its -blam!-
____________________ <- The line™

1:Your -blam!-
2: I know you are but what am I?





See the line? That's where it changes to a flame war.




**Line is drawn by Halo53. Any use of the line without the expressed written consent by Halo53 is prohibited. No animals were harmed in the making of the line.

[Edited on 6/23/2004 6:46:43 PM]

  • 06.23.2004 6:44 PM PDT
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In your example, Halo53 I would think person 2 would be the instigator of the flame war by not responding in an appropriate manner to a simple question, whereas person 1 threw the first actual flames. So is the line actually after the instigation or during? Or rather is person 1 or 2 responsible? Yes, I know is both of their fault, but someone has to cause it.

[Edited on 6/23/2004 7:07:38 PM]

  • 06.23.2004 7:06 PM PDT
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Yo Halo53, I'm real happy for you and I'ma let you finish, but Beyonce had one of the best bungie.net profiles of all time. OF ALL TIME!

Person 2 wasn't thinking rationally and spammed the thread. Spamming can be different from flaming. All flames are spam but not all spam is a flame. Kinda like the square rectangle relation. Person 2 was wrong but person 1 started the flaming.

  • 06.23.2004 7:36 PM PDT

Personal attacks are a no-no (unless it has history behind it, like the mother jokes). But disagreeing with someone is OK.

[Edited on 6/24/2004 12:19:22 AM]

  • 06.24.2004 12:19 AM PDT

yoo•zel- ('yoo-zhul): slang: vb.

Officium quod Fidelitas.

I usually draw the line when foul words are brought into play or when it's just senseless. Really, the Septagon users tend to present there arguments in a thought out process where as other places it's, f that and f you!

  • 06.24.2004 9:17 AM PDT
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Who uses the f words?

  • 06.24.2004 9:30 AM PDT
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Yo Halo53, I'm real happy for you and I'ma let you finish, but Beyonce had one of the best bungie.net profiles of all time. OF ALL TIME!

If I ever say anything about anyone its a joke. If I was ever that pissed at someone, I wouldn't be like a 3 year old and "call him a poo poo head." I would be like a 4 year old and "Tell mommy on you." By mommy I mean the mods. Or just Yoozel.

-Edited by me-

[Edited on 6/24/2004 11:53:24 AM]

  • 06.24.2004 10:28 AM PDT

yoo•zel- ('yoo-zhul): slang: vb.

Officium quod Fidelitas.

Play nice you two.

  • 06.24.2004 10:43 AM PDT
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Posted by: Yoozel
Play nice you two.


They're fine; it's cool

  • 06.24.2004 11:41 AM PDT
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uh oh a new mod telling another mod to back down.... thats bad tast makaveli to tell a superior what to do

  • 06.24.2004 1:12 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Hmmmmm.... I asked Shishka a somewhat similar question (it was what qualifies as spam in The Flood, since the whole Forum basically is spam). He said spam in that forum is the stupid stuff (not the same words).

I think this applies here as well, in its own way. I believe that an decent "argument" counts as a feud (minor or heated) where the feuding persons give valid reasons as to why they think differently, with no mean words and without calling someone -blam!- or stupid...

LINE


A flame war happens when someone does not give valid reasons for a different oppinion, or gives a semi-valid reason, but also includes in his reply (or something akin to), "I'm right!" "Don't be stupid, you know you're wrong," or, "I hate you, you're -blam!-, and you don't know what the hell you're talking about."

Intelligent arguments [insert divider line here] stupid flame wars. Real wars in this world happen for stupid reasons... its no different here.

This is merely what I think, and I hope it helps answer your question.

  • 06.24.2004 1:23 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Speaking of Sketch (someone else mentioned him), where has he been? I need an avatar question answered... and he's not here :-(

  • 06.24.2004 1:24 PM PDT

Sketch is back.

  • 06.24.2004 1:50 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Oh.... Then I await an answer to my question.

  • 06.24.2004 2:30 PM PDT

yoo•zel- ('yoo-zhul): slang: vb.

Officium quod Fidelitas.

Meeting of some sorts.

  • 06.24.2004 2:30 PM PDT

Add the email above to your MSN to contact me with emergencies on the forum.

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I don't think THAT'S even acceptable anymore. I know I haven't said any outright cursewords (besides ass, as in kiss my or eat my) And I still got yelled at.

Well not yelled at - but typed to very sternly. And the thing is, I'm 25 and I know at least one of the moderators is 5 years younger than me...

It's embarrassing to see someone 5 years your junior showing you how to act. The thing is I like heated arguments, I even like the occasional insult.

But people who won't come to your level (or rather drop quite suddenly into hate speech and racial epithet) ruin the process of the tension relieving arguments. They turn something as fun as a major debate (if you will) into a crass way to make personal, hateful attacks on people.

People like these spammers, turn everything into the most intellectually devoid flaming.

People like me would settle for a little simmering now and then...

  • 06.24.2004 4:16 PM PDT
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Well, of all the 'flame wars', at least as I've so far declared them, most times I see they are insulting each other, not actually making valid points, etc. So, they start to become off-topic kiddies, and attempt to 'verbally' bash each other.
I could see where an argument can get to the point where they do not want it to continue because it might end in a flame war, which is hard to draw the line at, but is usually instinctal.

Unfortunately, I'm not completely sure if this answers your question, but I hope it helps add some perspective to what another forum member thinks.

  • 06.24.2004 5:00 PM PDT

Great responses so far, lots of good ideas. Thanks.

Sketch Factor and Achronos, I have a hypothetical situation for you. If a new member were to come to the forum and voice their negative opinion of Bungie in a civilized manner, could another member have a legal argument with him or her without being criticized by a mod or Bungie Employee?

Also, I think that we need some sort of FAQ concerning this kind of specific question(s). Like a "forum law book" of some kind. Otherwise I (or anyone else) could be grilled by a mod on a (for lack of better words) technicality.

  • 06.24.2004 7:29 PM PDT

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