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  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
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Posted by: SCOTTY OWNS U
For People Whining:

Ok, if you people actually read the entire Weekly Update you would Realize that there is a good reason for Bungie not taking your suggestions and changing back the BR. In Halo 2 the Battle Riffle Would beat out every weapon, because it is good at close range, medium range
and long range. In halo 3 the design team wanted it to be fair, because it was realized in Halo 2 that it is too good. So for halo 3 they wanted things more balanced (in my opinion). So they Gave it less power at long and short range, making it the still the best medium range weapon (my opinion).


This is What I think you should do:

For all of the people that whining they probably want the Halo 2 BR back. And those people who are whining about wanting the Halo 2 BR had to get used to the Halo 2 BR by Playing Halo 2? And Halo 2 and Halo 3 are two Different Games within the same series. You if you are Whining 7bout the BR it is your fault for switching to a new game. If you want the halo 2 BR than play halo 2. It is that simple. And Different games are meant to be different, so they will have differences, the changes in the Battle Riffle are just one of the many changes between the games in the Halo Series. And like any other new game you start playing, you aren't going to be the best at it when you start, so you just have to play Halo 3 with the Battle Riffle at Medium Range the way it is meant to be used in HALO 3, not the way it was used in halo 2. Also like in any other new game you start to play, you have to play and practice to get good at it. The same thing goes for the BR. So just get used to it and practice with it at medium range the way it it said the be used at.

Shorter Version for the People that Still Don't Understand:

The people whining got used to the halo 2 br when they played halo 2 so just get used to the halo 3 br now that you know how to use it. You guys are practically blaming Bungie for making a weapon in the game you play.

Another Argument

They people whining / complaining usually claim to be MLG. If they are MLG they should be able to get a kill with almost any weapon nonetheless. So they should also be able to get a kill with the halo 3 BR. So you are just another poser if you claim to be MLG and are still whining about the halo 3 BR because you cant get a kill with it even though you claim to be MLG.

Another Argument:

Most of the people that also whine about wanting the Halo 2 BR back also say "Bungie Never Takes Suggestions?" Haven't anybody read the Code of Conduct : You have no rights, Play nice. Theres one point of this. But Bungie actually does take suggestions such as. The melee glitch, Griffball Double Exp Weekends, Team Snipers Double Exp Weekends, Bungie.Net Avatars, Bungie.net User Skins, Bungie.net Themes. And many more things that Bungie gets from suggestions.. You guys are too busy wanting an "Ulimate Weapon". Think about that... Now that you know the facts behind the Halo 2 Br you know it is good at any range making it unbeatable. Think of Bungie's Point of View, Somebody is saying. "Can we have the Halo 2 Br back so we can an unbeatable weapon??" Think about it. Now don't tell me that it sounds a little stupid. And Yes They do take suggestions.

Posted by: Timtaztix
I don't want the BR to be accurate I want it to be consistent. Sometimes it shoots differently than an opponent's, and this makes luck a factor. Halo 3 should be about skill, not luck. Don't flame me until you've read everything.

Bungie's excuse for not "fixing" the BR is that they don't want the BR to become the all-powerful Godly weapon that it was in Halo 2.

The BR in Halo 2 was Godly because:
-Button combos
-Tight spread
-The BR was a hitscan weapon
-The BR was extremely consistent

In Halo 3, there are no button combos, there is a huge spread, it is inconsistent, and it is not a hitscan weapon. Obviously, the BR is a lot less effective now than it was in Halo 2.

Bungie apparently thinks that we request the BR to be returned to its former state from Halo 2. No Bungie, not at all. You have misunderstood what the main problem is.

The BR is ridiculously inconsistent

Leave the spread as is, just take away the random tendencies! The problem is that sometimes my BR has an accurate burst, and sometimes it has an inaccurate burst. What if I'm in a 1-on-1 BR fight, and my BR shoots randomly wider and his shoots randomly tighter. My opponent will win the fight not because of his aiming skills, but because his shot more accurately than mine. Even though my reticule was on his head, and his was on mine, I lose the fight because of the random tendencies.

So, in conclusion, I suggest that Bungie removes the random tendencies of the BR's burst. This means that:

-It will still have a wide spread
-It will still not be a hitscan weapon (You must still lead shots)
-Still no button combos
-Consistent! This is the only change...making the burst consistent. This way, the only advantage one player will have over another is skill. Luck should not be a factor in a competitive game.

This way the BR is still not accurate enough to snipe, and not accurate enough to guarantee a perfect 4-shot every time...but it will remain this way for everyone and not just the lucky will win.

If everyone's BR performs the same, every time, even if the spread isn't perfect, it is a balanced weapon. Right now the winner of a BR fight depends on lucky spread, and I want the winner to rely on skill. Not luck.

Post here if you agree with me, and be mature about it. No flaming unless you've read the entire post.


^^^^^

Argument:

In this statement the OP has all of the Halo 2 facts completely correct. But think about it, Yes, it is was completely consistent. And if that is what you are asking for in halo 3 then it would still be the Ultimate weapon. Think about it. What other weapon is completely consistent in Halo 3 Besides the Spartan Laser and Sniper Riffle (Said by Luke)? AR Bullets Fly everywhere. Needlers fly off anywhere, Rockets can be shot off by an explosion, Spikers don't lock on, Shotguns shoot multiple bullets. I really cannot think of another weapon that is completely consistent in hitting all of its shots. I also Think you may be exaggerating when you say ridiculously because if I am correct on my math and I read the many math equations correctly by JonnyOthan then only one one the 3 bullets is going to be inaccurate out of the three. You also talk about a 1 vs 1 BR duel. Think about this situation too. Once again if I am correct on reading the math equations then one out of the three bullets will not hit. So if you think about that there is a 66.7% (Rounded) change that it will be accurate and a 34.3% chance that one bullet out of the 3 will miss. That is not even a 50% chance! Which brings me to the Final facts of this argument that Only two weapons (that I'm 100% sure on) are 100% accurate. So why should the BR? This question brings us the Real Life Sniper vs the Real Life Battle Riffle. In Real life not every BR weapon is going to hit the exact target. A real life Sniper bullet will hit the exact target. So that equation is correct. So what is so what is so bad about a 34.3% chance of having 1 bullet miss when almost every other weapon will do the same or worse. The last thing in this argument, in a 1 on 1 br duel you will most likley to have the same outcome for both players.

(I know I probably got some facts wrong in there but C'mon you gotta admit that is had to argue against!)


Please Don't spam me telling me I don't know what I'm saying.

This is just my opinion on you should look at the BR changes from Halo 2 to Halo 3.


AND. That was just for the People WHINING. Honestly I like the Halo 3 BR better tahn the H2 one.

I know others have my same opinion, My top posts were for Whiners not people with my opinion.



What do you think of my opinion?

And if I have any facts wrong please tell me and I shall fix.

Discuss nicley...


READ MY ENTIRE POST, I'm not complaining.

I am not complaining, I am telling people that do complain how to deal with it and some facts and opinions behind it.

somebody has a lot of time on there hands.......

[Edited on 12.15.2008 2:34 PM PST]

  • 12.15.2008 2:33 PM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Okay Dan, simple question since I'm suppose to be ignoring your posts.

If a noob and a pro are fighting in Shadowrun and both are strafing with the pistol and the noob kills the pro because of the random value of his reticule bloom, is that fair? I'm assuming the pistol has reticule bloom in Shadowrun since I haven't played it in months. Substitute rifle or SMG if you prefer.


It is fair. IF a noob is able to out-pistol someone on SR, that's fair because the PRO should have used his better aim and shooting judgment on the noob. That's not the case in Halo 3 AT ALL. When a player uses their utmost skill that they're capable of using with the BR in H3 against some one else of equal or lesser skill...the random spread, plus the bullet refunding, totally destroys the outcome of the battle and puts it up into pure luck. Every 4-shot on Halo 3 is PURE luck.

As for the Rifle and SMG in SR, same rules apply to the outcomes as I stated just a few sentences ago. Same applies in the game of Counter-strike too. That's why when I roll into a CS pub, 99% of the time I get completely dominated by the CS players and I RARELY get a kill...RARELY, and it's because they have superior aim over my ability to aim, the way it should be.


There are tons of games out there where a "noob" can beat a pro and it's fair. Chris Moneymaker in Poker is a relatively good recent example. You're right, there are plenty of games of odds. All of the ones you listed are good examples. I'd imagine a "pro" player is able to use those odds in order to put the game more in their favor. However, there are simply times where that is impossible and the game simply comes down to pure luck. Just like poker, just like minesweeper, and just like Halo 3. If poker is an unfair game I suggest never moving to Nevada.


I know that Poker is a game of luck, but there's some strategy involved where you can increase your odds, but that's all you really can do, increase your odds. Casino games are all about playing the odds. But isn't this whole discussion about why THAT KIND of gameplay shouldn't be in Halo??


Bungie made a game where a good player can put the odds in their favor. They can get better at their aim. They can get better at their strafe. They can use a wide variety of things to increase the odds of their victory. However, there are times where you just get unlucky but that doesn't de facto make the game unfair. It just makes it a game. Which is still what we are talking about here. A game.


Yes, it does make it unfair. When a player uses all of his abilities and then gets shafted out of kills or shots due to bullet refunding and BR spread...that in turn makes it NOT FAIR. Sure a player can increase their odds by doing good strafes and jumping at the right moment to throw some player's aim off, or aim better....but how can you AIM better when the spread dictates the outcome of your shots? How can better aim overcome bullet refunding?





[Edited on 12.15.2008 2:47 PM PST]

  • 12.15.2008 2:45 PM PDT

Posted by: dan91bauer
Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Okay Dan, simple question since I'm suppose to be ignoring your posts.

If a noob and a pro are fighting in Shadowrun and both are strafing with the pistol and the noob kills the pro because of the random value of his reticule bloom, is that fair? I'm assuming the pistol has reticule bloom in Shadowrun since I haven't played it in months. Substitute rifle or SMG if you prefer.


It is fair. IF a noob is able to out-pistol someone on SR, that's fair because the PRO should have used his better aim and shooting judgment on the noob. That's not the case in Halo 3 AT ALL. When a player uses their utmost skill that they're capable of using with the BR in H3 against some one else of equal or lesser skill...the random spread, plus the bullet refunding, totally destroys the outcome of the battle and puts it up into pure luck. Every 4-shot on Halo 3 is PURE luck.
I honestly did not understand what you meant here. What is the difference between the BR spread and the SR pistol spread?

  • 12.15.2008 3:48 PM PDT

Posted by: Mutoid Log
I honestly did not understand what you meant here. What is the difference between the BR spread and the SR pistol spread?


In the intended range of the BR, which is medium to long range, even scoped, the BR does not work as intended. The BR weekly update even said that the BR's range was purposefully shortened to so-called balance with the Assault Rifle.

The pistol in SR isn't meant to be a long range weapon, although, with skillful aim and managing the recoil/bloom, you can legitimately shoot someone at mid range on SR with the pistol...which is actually tough to do, and it's in my opinion, a last ditch type thing to do. The SR rifle is the medium to long range weapon in that game, and to me, FASA did it perfectly. No random spread. You the player have to control your shots by compensating for the vertical lift on the rifle.

The pistol's accuracy is also dictated by how fast or slow you pull your trigger, and whether you're moving side to side, jumping, or crouched.

The H3 BR spread is random to a point of where if you aimed at the same exact spot twice in a row within a mid range distance, the BR might produce a 4-shot, and the at another time produce a 5 or 6 shot kill. Random.

========

Adding something more that I find interesting:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm /3-22-9/c05.htm#fig5_5

I think THAT should be what the BR should fire like...with the same spacing between shots as it is right now in terms of delay between rounds within a single burst...this would still force leading and precision accuracy of aim.

But instead.... http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm /3-22-9/c05.htm#fig5_6

This is what the H3 BR is currently like. Garbage.


My ultimate question would have to be, what's wrong with having a spread like Fig 5? What's wrong with having it be consistent and non-random? What's so bad about designing a game with balance that way?

[Edited on 12.15.2008 5:06 PM PST]

  • 12.15.2008 4:13 PM PDT

The next person to assume I am talking about ranked, do us all a favor and look at what I play!

I actually played Halo 1 on the internet on the P.C. The pistol was immensely overpowered. On bloodgulch, it was essentially crucial to crossing the map, because it was so big with very little cover. The 3 shots to kill were very fast, around 2 BR bursts now to be accurate. My brother got incredibly good at using the pistol, he could kill people in 2 secs of seeing them before they could even point their AR's. How is that balanced. Think of the pistol as it was in Halo 1, as a handgun version of the Covanent Carbine That fired faster, more accurately, had more ammo, and had the power of a sniper body shot when aimed at the head. Doesn't sound so fair now. I could hit a guy over by were Church got TK'd in RVB from blue base with my pistol, and ad a two hills away in the same direction, I could kill in one clip. The only balancing features was everyone got one to spawn with and it had a realy slow melee. I am not suggesting BR starts everywhere, because it would be the same nightmare again.

  • 12.15.2008 5:55 PM PDT

The next person to assume I am talking about ranked, do us all a favor and look at what I play!

P.S.: An epithet for this thread: Yarn of the epic posts.

  • 12.15.2008 6:00 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

Halo CE > Halo 3 > Halo 2

Fix the Halo 3 BR spread, plz.

Blood Gulch is a pistol map. The whole map is perfectly designed for the pistol's use. If you're using an AR in the middle of blood gulch, you aren't using it in it's intended range, and thus should be punished.

  • 12.15.2008 6:45 PM PDT

Posted by: Dustin 6047
Troll confirmed. I never even insulted you

Posted by: Dustin 6047
OP - You're a dumbass with the reading comprehension skills of a second grader.


Can someone tell me what's wrong with these two, this made me LOL hard.

It would've been cool if you could have a Silenced BR, that way they won't know where it's coming from. (If they don't look at the arrow where the pain is coming from) Or maybe laser sight to for "humor" purposes. (Laser to the forehead) -facepalm-

  • 12.15.2008 7:05 PM PDT

I'm still dumbfounded as to how Bungie could possibly think that lowering the range of a RIFLE with a SCOPE on it, especially through the addition of a random variable that determines the bullets trajectory, could lead to anything but frustration.

  • 12.15.2008 7:17 PM PDT
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Posted by: dan91bauer
As for the Rifle and SMG in SR, same rules apply to the outcomes as I stated just a few sentences ago. Same applies in the game of Counter-strike too. That's why when I roll into a CS pub, 99% of the time I get completely dominated by the CS players and I RARELY get a kill...RARELY, and it's because they have superior aim over my ability to aim, the way it should be.

HEY!! I know!! Lets balance an Xbox 360 game like a PC game where twitch reflexes define the good from the bad rather than tactical play and fore-thought, even though we're using a controller and not a mouse, and where people without twitch reflexes are murdered without a chance over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over until they learn that they're simply not worthy of playing our online video game for fun because this is serious business that only the pros should play!! Yeah bro, that'll be AWESOME.

Posted by: dan91bauer
When a player uses all of his abilities and then gets shafted out of kills or shots due to bullet refunding and BR spread...that in turn makes it NOT FAIR. Sure a player can increase their odds by doing good strafes and jumping at the right moment to throw some player's aim off, or aim better....but how can you AIM better when the spread dictates the outcome of your shots? How can better aim overcome bullet refunding?

Amen brother. No one should ever lose because of luck or chance or factors outside of their control because as we all know this is serious buisness and those kills could seriously hurt my K/D ratio!! I mean, jesus, as if a player who's ranked less than me and has a lower K/D ratio than me should ever be allowed to have a kill once in a while - they exist soley to increase my score. I wish Bungie would get that through their god damn noob-loving skulls!!

Translation: Get off my internet. Thank you.

  • 12.15.2008 8:16 PM PDT

Posted by: Zeh Don
HEY!! I know!! Lets balance an Xbox 360 game like a PC game where twitch reflexes define the good from the bad rather than tactical play and fore-thought, even though we're using a controller and not a mouse, and where people without twitch reflexes are murdered without a chance over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over until they learn that they're simply not worthy of playing our online video game for fun because this is serious business that only the pros should play!! Yeah bro, that'll be AWESOME.
Do you expect all the games that you play to hold your hand so that you aren't completely destroyed by players vastly more skilled then you? I mean, chess would be so AWESOME if it had a random mechanic to even out the playing field, wouldn't it? Then I could finally beat all those chess pro losers, lolololol!!!!

Amen brother. No one should ever lose because of luck or chance or factors outside of their control because as we all know this is serious buisness and those kills could seriously hurt my K/D ratio!! I mean, jesus, as if a player who's ranked less than me and has a lower K/D ratio than me should ever be allowed to have a kill once in a while - they exist soley to increase my score. I wish Bungie would get that through their god damn noob-loving skulls!! The ranking system should place weaker players with other weaker players so they can all get kills and play at a level that best suits them. The game shouldn't try to remove the skill gap so weaker players can kill skilled players "every once in a while."

  • 12.15.2008 8:52 PM PDT

O Rly?

Posted by: Zeh Don
Posted by: dan91bauer
As for the Rifle and SMG in SR, same rules apply to the outcomes as I stated just a few sentences ago. Same applies in the game of Counter-strike too. That's why when I roll into a CS pub, 99% of the time I get completely dominated by the CS players and I RARELY get a kill...RARELY, and it's because they have superior aim over my ability to aim, the way it should be.

HEY!! I know!! Lets balance an Xbox 360 game like a PC game where twitch reflexes define the good from the bad rather than tactical play and fore-thought, even though we're using a controller and not a mouse, and where people without twitch reflexes are murdered without a chance over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over until they learn that they're simply not worthy of playing our online video game for fun because this is serious business that only the pros should play!! Yeah bro, that'll be AWESOME.

Posted by: dan91bauer
When a player uses all of his abilities and then gets shafted out of kills or shots due to bullet refunding and BR spread...that in turn makes it NOT FAIR. Sure a player can increase their odds by doing good strafes and jumping at the right moment to throw some player's aim off, or aim better....but how can you AIM better when the spread dictates the outcome of your shots? How can better aim overcome bullet refunding?

Amen brother. No one should ever lose because of luck or chance or factors outside of their control because as we all know this is serious buisness and those kills could seriously hurt my K/D ratio!! I mean, jesus, as if a player who's ranked less than me and has a lower K/D ratio than me should ever be allowed to have a kill once in a while - they exist soley to increase my score. I wish Bungie would get that through their god damn noob-loving skulls!!

Translation: Get off my internet. Thank you.


QFT

  • 12.15.2008 9:31 PM PDT
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Posted by: Nokterne
Do you expect all the games that you play to hold your hand so that you aren't completely destroyed by players vastly more skilled then you? I mean, chess would be so AWESOME if it had a random mechanic to even out the playing field, wouldn't it? Then I could finally beat all those chess pro losers, lolololol!!!!

Comparing an Online FPS for the Xbox 360 to Chess is a really bad way to make your point, I'm sure even Bungie arn't so in love with their game that they'd liken it's tactics to those required by a turn-based board game. Refering back to the original Counter-Strike metaphore would have been the smarter move.

Also, there's a difference between using a random mechanic for bullet placement to mimic the realistic properties of the internal-combustion nature of a gas-propelled, tri-shot burst space-age Battle Rifle and hand-holding.

Significant Auto-Aim = Hand Holding
Random Bullet Spread = Realistic.

Counter-Strike, while certainly realistic, trades accurate bullet physics for twitch gameplay and works for it's intended crowd; myself included. Halo 3 trades the speed of twitch gameplay for the tactical gameplay that it's slower paced nature leans toward; random spread and accurate bullet physics map into that.

The Random Bullet Spread also ensures that we see different variations in the same scenario - sometimes a BR can out-match an AR close range, sometimes it can't. Will you risk it and go for the glory? It's these moment to moment decisions that make this tactical, fore-thought requiring nature of Halo 3, and that plays into why it's so fun. If you can't see that, you're playing the wrong game; Unreal Tournament is that-a-way -->

Posted by: Nokterne
The ranking system should place weaker players with other weaker players so they can all get kills and play at a level that best suits them. The game shouldn't try to remove the skill gap so weaker players can kill skilled players "every once in a while."


'Weaker Players', as you so lovingly called them, are often grouped together. Just because I have a low Rank doesn't mean I suck, or am not able to tackle a higher ranked player; simply means I haven't played enough matches to earn the required EXP for that higher rank.
The game doesn't try to remove the gap, I've seen players dominate an entire game with some players death's nearing twenty while having zero kills. The game gives players a chance; a better player will still sit on the top of the leader board when the match conditions are met. If you can't handle the occasional random kill brought about by random bullet spread, you seriously need to put down your controller and go outside. It's a game.

Oh wait, I forgot:
This is Halo 3; this is serious.

  • 12.15.2008 11:24 PM PDT

Posted by: Zeh Don
HEY!! I know!! Lets balance an Xbox 360 game like a PC game where twitch reflexes define the good from the bad rather than tactical play and fore-thought, even though we're using a controller and not a mouse, and where people without twitch reflexes are murdered without a chance over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over until they learn that they're simply not worthy of playing our online video game for fun because this is serious business that only the pros should play!! Yeah bro, that'll be AWESOME.


I'm sorry, but balancing the BR and making it non-random isn't going to require some kind of Pro-PC twitch reflexes. I still do not understand why so many people think that an accurate non-random BR in Halo would make the game bad or over powered...it would do the complete opposite, it would require even MORE aim from the player and more precision...and that's a bad thing?

And yes, my CS example holds true. Tell me this, why should I be able to go into a CS pub and instantly start killing people with little to no practice or knowledge of the aiming/shooting in that game? Should I be able to just simply press and hold down the mouse and spray n pray my guns and get kills from them? Does that make the game more fun??

Guess what, tons of people play CS for fun...it's called pubbing. They play all kinds of different mods of CS ranging from FFA, to team deathmatch, to surfworld where you're practically skating on these giant waves and shooting at the same time...that's where most people find their "fun" in that game outside of the so-called uber pro world of CS, which doesn't exist because pros dont waste their times in pubs. It's just a fact that pub players in CS aren't pushovers, they actually know how to play the game and they're very good at it...what's wrong with that? It's not serious business as you make it out to be, it's fun, fair, and balanced gameplay.



Amen brother. No one should ever lose because of luck or chance or factors outside of their control because as we all know this is serious buisness and those kills could seriously hurt my K/D ratio!! I mean, jesus, as if a player who's ranked less than me and has a lower K/D ratio than me should ever be allowed to have a kill once in a while - they exist soley to increase my score. I wish Bungie would get that through their god damn noob-loving skulls!!


This isn't an issue of someone's KD ration being affected, it's an issue of what's fair and what's not. It's an issue of what is fun and what is not. It's an issue of what is balanced and what is not. Why should someone lose a fight to a lesser skilled player due to some in-game luck or in-game randomness that tilted into the favor of the lesser skilled player to allow him to beat the higher skilled player? Why does that need to be there? To me, that's in insult to gamers of ANY skill level.

The fact that you're saying that it's "okay" for noobs to get kills on vets because the game should allow them to is telling me that you're calling almost 99% of all console gamers dumb tards that dont know how to play video games.

To me, when I see massive auto-aim, magnetism, intentional randomness, random BR spread, and any other intentional factors/crutches in a game, it's an insult to me as a gamer. It's an insult at me that devs think I am that stupid that I can't use my own tactical thinking and my own brain to have success in a video game.

You're not getting the picture at all.

  • 12.16.2008 6:09 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Soooo.... let me get this straight.

If a noob can beat a pro because of random variables brought on by "reticule bloom" induced by movement or rate of fire that's okay? But if a noob can beat a pro because of random variables brought on by "reticule bloom" because of distance that's not okay?

What a joke!

You don't have a problem with randomness in FPS games Dan, you have a problem with randomness on the BR. Do you really think that if the BR's random spread variables were determined by movement or rate of fire it would make the game better? Would you really want the BR's spread mechanics to increase if you fire the weapon faster? So regardless of distance that if you attempted a "4-shot" it would be pretty much be complete luck?

I cannot believe that you actually admitted that you don't have a problem with in-game randomness in SR where a noob can beat a pro and then try to turn around and say that it is unfair in Halo 3. I'm glad about 3 other people called you on that crap before I got here Dan because it is incredibly idiotic. Oh, and there is "bullet drop" in SR as well. Don't think that it doesn't suffer from packet loss.

Another fine one to add to the long list of gems from DanBauer. Wow.

I think I have to call some people about this one. I'm sure they could use a laugh.

~B.B.

  • 12.16.2008 7:15 AM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Soooo.... let me get this straight.

If a noob can beat a pro because of random variables brought on by "reticule bloom" induced by movement or rate of fire that's okay? But if a noob can beat a pro because of random variables brought on by "reticule bloom" because of distance that's not okay?

What a joke!

You don't have a problem with randomness in FPS games Dan, you have a problem with randomness on the BR. Do you really think that if the BR's random spread variables were determined by movement or rate of fire it would make the game better? Would you really want the BR's spread mechanics to increase if you fire the weapon faster? So regardless of distance that if you attempted a "4-shot" it would be pretty much be complete luck?

I cannot believe that you actually admitted that you don't have a problem with in-game randomness in SR where a noob can beat a pro and then try to turn around and say that it is unfair in Halo 3. I'm glad about 3 other people called you on that crap before I got here Dan because it is incredibly idiotic. Oh, and there is "bullet drop" in SR as well. Don't think that it doesn't suffer from packet loss.

Another fine one to add to the long list of gems from DanBauer. Wow.

I think I have to call some people about this one. I'm sure they could use a laugh.

~B.B.


If you look at the shadowrun example the pro will understand how to control the reticle bloom and maximise the accuracy, the noob will not. I haven't played a great deal of shadowrun but I am assuming the reticle bloom is somewhat similar to counter strike. So the pro will know that strafing and stopping to shoot is beneficial as is crouching etc. The noob will just tap the trigger and run in a straight line at the pro therefore spraying the bullets everywhere while the pro's precise well timed shots land. Understanding the depth of the weapon's function and having the ability to control it is a skill in itself.

The BR only requires aiming (headshot bonuses are only given on shieldless targets as well) and the understanding of the requirement to lead at range. So when a noob and a pro encounter each other there is a lot less to separate them. If you continue this comparison and apply it to matchmaking the noob will run around the corner spray you for a millisecond with their AR and then beatdown lunge you from metres away.

He gave you the information to figure out for yourself that it is much more difficult for the noob to beat the pro in Shadowrun. He also said that is the pistol which is intended for short range and that the rifle (mid-range weapon) is not random.

Nobody wants the BR to have reticle bloom dependant on movement or ROF but they instead want it to take more skill to use and be consistent. Single shot would be preferable. Who says the gun has to have a spread or use burst fire.

The BR in halo 3 isn't even that difficult to use and as soon as the noobs realise its what's required to perform well it takes a minimal amount of practice before they become competent. At this point BR duels come down to host (online) and random factors such as spread. Even extremely good players often win BR fights against average players by the slimmest of margins.

  • 12.16.2008 7:51 AM PDT

Prodigy basically summed it all up for you Beserker; you're the one that's not seeing what we see. I understand that some people don't see eye to eye, but I don't see how you can relate bloom in SR which is PLAYER CONTROLLED, that it's the same as the random spread in the BR which is not player controlled.

If I could physically control the spread of the BR by my strafe, shooting speed, trigger pulls, etc...then I wouldn't be arguing about this because then it would be MY problem to take care of rather than the game shafting me.

It's this simple, when you roll into a Counter-strike pub and you get a headshot, you did it, not the game, you aimed, you shot, you got the headshot. Now could you maybe hold the trigger down and just spray and get a random headshot from that spray? Sure you could...but when you're up against a pro...how often are you going to get that off successfully?

In Halo 3, how many times no matter how good your shot is can a noob still kill you just as equally as you can kill him? Very often.

  • 12.16.2008 8:10 AM PDT

Posted by: Prodigy117
Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Soooo.... let me get this straight.

If a noob can beat a pro because of random variables brought on by "reticule bloom" induced by movement or rate of fire that's okay? But if a noob can beat a pro because of random variables brought on by "reticule bloom" because of distance that's not okay?

What a joke!

You don't have a problem with randomness in FPS games Dan, you have a problem with randomness on the BR. Do you really think that if the BR's random spread variables were determined by movement or rate of fire it would make the game better? Would you really want the BR's spread mechanics to increase if you fire the weapon faster? So regardless of distance that if you attempted a "4-shot" it would be pretty much be complete luck?

I cannot believe that you actually admitted that you don't have a problem with in-game randomness in SR where a noob can beat a pro and then try to turn around and say that it is unfair in Halo 3. I'm glad about 3 other people called you on that crap before I got here Dan because it is incredibly idiotic. Oh, and there is "bullet drop" in SR as well. Don't think that it doesn't suffer from packet loss.

Another fine one to add to the long list of gems from DanBauer. Wow.

I think I have to call some people about this one. I'm sure they could use a laugh.

~B.B.


If you look at the shadowrun example the pro will understand how to control the reticle bloom and maximise the accuracy, the noob will not. I haven't played a great deal of shadowrun but I am assuming the reticle bloom is somewhat similar to counter strike. So the pro will know that strafing and stopping to shoot is beneficial as is crouching etc. The noob will just tap the trigger and run in a straight line at the pro therefore spraying the bullets everywhere while the pro's precise well timed shots land. Understanding the depth of the weapon's function and having the ability to control it is a skill in itself.

The BR only requires aiming (headshot bonuses are only given on shieldless targets as well) and the understanding of the requirement to lead at range. So when a noob and a pro encounter each other there is a lot less to separate them. If you continue this comparison and apply it to matchmaking the noob will run around the corner spray you for a millisecond with their AR and then beatdown lunge you from metres away.

He gave you the information to figure out for yourself that it is much more difficult for the noob to beat the pro in Shadowrun. He also said that is the pistol which is intended for short range and that the rifle (mid-range weapon) is not random.

Nobody wants the BR to have reticle bloom dependant on movement or ROF but they instead want it to take more skill to use and be consistent. Single shot would be preferable. Who says the gun has to have a spread or use burst fire.

The BR in halo 3 isn't even that difficult to use and as soon as the noobs realise its what's required to perform well it takes a minimal amount of practice before they become competent. At this point BR duels come down to host (online) and random factors such as spread. Even extremely good players often win BR fights against average players by the slimmest of margins.



Even with MLG's 110% player dmg, you still see pros on LAN getting shafted out of kills, which forces teams to have to use more teamshot. I guess in a way you can argue it forces more teamwork, but seriously, individual's skill should be able to take on their own battles when needed, not get shafted out of kills because of the spread.

  • 12.16.2008 8:14 AM PDT
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24 years old.
BA in Politics. MSc in Business Management.
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Posted by: dan91bauer

My ultimate question would have to be, what's wrong with having a spread like Fig 5? What's wrong with having it be consistent and non-random? What's so bad about designing a game with balance that way?


Exactly my view. Why does it need to be inconsistent? In what way does this benefit gameplay???

  • 12.16.2008 8:30 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Prodigy117
If you look at the shadowrun example the pro will understand how to control the reticle bloom and maximise the accuracy, the noob will not. I haven't played a great deal of shadowrun but I am assuming the reticle bloom is somewhat similar to counter strike. So the pro will know that strafing and stopping to shoot is beneficial as is crouching etc. The noob will just tap the trigger and run in a straight line at the pro therefore spraying the bullets everywhere while the pro's precise well timed shots land. Understanding the depth of the weapon's function and having the ability to control it is a skill in itself.


If I remember correctly rate of fire also increases reticule bloom in Shadowrun. So let's say a noob and a pro are facing off against each other using the pistol. They are both strafing in order to make themselves not stationary targets. The pro however stops when he is about to shoot and takes his time to try to control his reticule bloom. This takes a few additional seconds but he knows that he'll gain far better accuracy because his reticule bloom will be less than the noob who is doing the opposite. The noob is strafing back and forth and firing continuously. His reticule bloom is at the widest point in which it can grow meaning that that noob has the most chance for a random variant. He however is firing quicker and scores the necessary hits to kill the pro in less time even though he has a higher chance of variance. Essentially he "got lucky". I've seen this scenario play out many a times when playing Shadowrun but normally with the SMG. Even in Shadowrun, apparently a better game than Halo 3, a noob can beat a pro with the luck of random variables. Shadowrun allows noobs the opportunity to beat so-called pros because of randomness just as Halo 3 does. Apparently the only thing that differentiates the games for DanBauer is one game places it's variance of reticule bloom on movement and rate of fire while the other bases it on distance. Wow, what a distinction.

The BR only requires aiming (headshot bonuses are only given on shieldless targets as well) and the understanding of the requirement to lead at range. So when a noob and a pro encounter each other there is a lot less to separate them. If you continue this comparison and apply it to matchmaking the noob will run around the corner spray you for a millisecond with their AR and then beatdown lunge you from metres away.

Wait, so in Shadowrun the noob will only run at his opponent in a straight line firing recklessly but the noob in Halo 3 will use the setting to his advantage while waiting to get the BR user in a range in which he has the upper hand and then fight him. Wow, you have two completely different noobs here. One seems to be a whole hell of a lot smarter than the other. Especially since the second one is using a weapon that is more advantageous for that encounter than the first noob who is doing everything wrong.

Or your comparison is piss-poor and doesn't mean a damn thing.

He gave you the information to figure out for yourself that it is much more difficult for the noob to beat the pro in Shadowrun. He also said that is the pistol which is intended for short range and that the rifle (mid-range weapon) is not random.

No it's not. I beat plenty of people in Shadowrun the first time I loaded up the game. I didn't even know what each character type did. I picked an Elf because that is what seems most other people were picking. I ran around strafing and firing with the pistol almost constantly. And I still scored kills. I scored kills against people with SMGs. I scored kills against people with Rifles. If the game allowed you to use Legacy controls I probably would have killed even more people than I did.

The rifle in Shadowrun is a single shot rifle. It also has random variables when looking at reticule bloom due to movement and rate of fire just like the pistol does (IIRC). If you're willing to sit perfectly still and fire in an extremely slow fashion than the Rifle in Shadowrun has little to no randomness associated with firing. However, I'd imagine that this happens rarely when using the weapon. So really even comparing the Rifle in SR to the H3 BR is like apples to oranges in the first place. It really should be comparing it to the H3 Carbine but it really doesn't matter.

Nobody wants the BR to have reticle bloom dependant on movement or ROF but they instead want it to take more skill to use and be consistent. Single shot would be preferable. Who says the gun has to have a spread or use burst fire.

Apparently DanBauer does. Because randomness that is associated with reticule bloom that is cause by either movement or rate of fire is acceptable randomness to him. Randomness that is associated with reticule bloom that is cause by distance is not acceptable. Oh and the people that say the gun has to have a spread or fire a burst shot is Bungie. And they make the rules.

The BR in halo 3 isn't even that difficult to use and as soon as the noobs realise its what's required to perform well it takes a minimal amount of practice before they become competent. At this point BR duels come down to host (online) and random factors such as spread. Even extremely good players often win BR fights against average players by the slimmest of margins.

I agree. The H3 BR isn't very hard to use. However, there are still things that the "pros" do that put the odds in their favor. Their aim is better. Their strafe is better. They are better at using their surroundings. They are better at using other weapons (ie grenades). They are better at team shooting. They are better at teamwork. They are better at map control. They are better at spawn control. They are better at pretty much everything else in the game which is what separates them from the other guys. Isn't this what the pro-MLG fanbois always tell me? Being competent with the BR isn't the same as being good with the BR. Just like being competent with the Hog isn't the same as being good with the Hog. The difference in spread is a cheap scapegoat used by people who are looking for a reason why they lost a BR fight. The difference in spread is so minute even at 20WUs that it complaining about it is idiotic. The difference between a .38 spread and a .30 spread even at a far distance of 20WUs is pretty slim. It still comes down to aim more often than not.

However, removing the spread makes the BR easier to use at further distances. The only thing that would separate it from the H2 BR (which is insanely easy to use) is that now you would have to lead shots at far opponents because the weapon isn't hitscan anymore (sans the slight reduction in AA/BM as compared to H2)

So to reiterate. DanBauer, the famous critic of randomness in video games, has no problem with randomness in video games as long as they are dependent on either movement or rate of fire. It's only a problem when randomness is controlled by distance. So please Bungie, do us a favor and make the BR spread mechanic dependent on whether or not you're moving/jumping/strafing with the BR and if you're firing the BR in rapid succession. That would greatly improve gameplay according to DanBauer because it would make it more like Shadowrun which is good and less like Halo 3 which is bad.

This discussion is over.

~B.B.

  • 12.16.2008 8:47 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Oh Dan, you can control BR spread in Halo 3. It's called move closer to your target. Just like if you don't want to deal with random variables in Shadowrun you either don't move when firing or don't fire in rapid succession.

Christ, that is so plain as day I feel dumber for having to explain it to you.

*edit* Dan you said you wouldn't have a problem with randomness in Halo 3 if it was something you can control. Guess what, you can control it by the distance in which you fire the BR. The spread is able to be mitigated at certain distances. Thanks for clearing that all up for us. /*edit*

~B.B.

[Edited on 12.16.2008 8:56 AM PST]

  • 12.16.2008 8:49 AM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Wait, so in Shadowrun the noob will only run at his opponent in a straight line firing recklessly but the noob in Halo 3 will use the setting to his advantage while waiting to get the BR user in a range in which he has the upper hand and then fight him. Wow, you have two completely different noobs here. One seems to be a whole hell of a lot smarter than the other. Especially since the second one is using a weapon that is more advantageous for that encounter than the first noob who is doing everything wrong.

Or your comparison is piss-poor and doesn't mean a damn thing.


I haven't really played the game enough to comment in depth but if a noob ran in a straight line with the SMG at a good player armed with a pistol/rifle would that noob have a better chance than they would doing the same with an AR in halo 3? Obviously distance is a factor but apply a situation that is comparable. In halo 3 they will always take you to no shields pretty much unless its at a stupid range.

Regardless of Shadowrun do you not think a single shot BR that is harder to aim with no bullet auto aim would be far better for halo 3. At the moment the BR is the best weapon and most players over 40 have it as their TOD anyway, I reckon most of the people who play the game will eventually realise it's the way to go. There's not really much variety of skilled utility weapons (BR and carbine, perhaps magnum), most of the weapons are close range weapons which require very little skill to use effectively. Why not create more of a skill-gap where the true aiming skill in the game lies at the moment?

  • 12.16.2008 9:28 AM PDT

!

BR were changed in the beginning of halo 3. That randomness was added, and the game started sucking just like halo 2 did. Before it was i think five shots...I may be wrong. It was better with five shots. More Balanced.

  • 12.16.2008 9:36 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Prodigy117
I haven't really played the game enough to comment in depth but if a noob ran in a straight line with the SMG at a good player armed with a pistol/rifle would that noob have a better chance than they would doing the same with an AR in halo 3? Obviously distance is a factor but apply a situation that is comparable. In halo 3 they will always take you to no shields pretty much unless its at a stupid range.


Okay, comparing the SR SMG to the Halo 3 AR the the player running in Shadowrun would have a worse chance because their random variables are effected by both rate of fire (which the H3 AR shares) and their movement which both affect "reticule bloom". Regardless, the point I was trying to make is that even in Shadowrun a player can do everything wrong (even with the pistol) ie strafing back and forth, firing non-stop, which would give them the highest possible random variance range and still beat a player who did everything right (crouched, little to no movement to control bloom, steady fire to control bloom, et cetera). Even in Shadowrun a quintessential "noob" can still beat a quintessential "pro" because of the random factors of the game and weapons. Dan says that is fair because the pro was in control of his destiny and he chose to go for better accuracy and he just lost because the other guy "got lucky". He sees Halo 3 as a wrong however when the exact same scenario happens. That's the point.

Regardless of Shadowrun do you not think a single shot BR that is harder to aim with no bullet auto aim would be far better for halo 3. At the moment the BR is the best weapon and most players over 40 have it as their TOD anyway, I reckon most of the people who play the game will eventually realise it's the way to go. There's not really much variety of skilled utility weapons (BR and carbine, perhaps magnum), most of the weapons are close range weapons which require very little skill to use effectively. Why not create more of a skill-gap where the true aiming skill in the game lies at the moment?

Of course I think a single-shot BR would be harder to aim. I think the H3 Magnum is one of the toughest weapons to be good with (I personally think it's harder to be good with the M6G than it is with the Sniper Rifle but that's just me). I actually have wondered why MLG hasn't switch all BR spawn and starts to the M6G. It's a much harder/"skillful" weapon and the range isn't that much more dramatic when comparing the BR unscoped to the M6G. It's too bad that you can't adjust maximum range in custom game options because I think it would make it so the M6G would be the weapon of choice for "competitive" Halo.

But the thing is, and I know everyone is tired of hearing it, is that the Halo that is played in MM for the most part isn't suppose to be highly "competitive". It's never been that way from the start. It's suppose to give lesser-skilled players a chance against better-skilled opponents. Changing the BR for the entire game would greatly go against that. Players in Halo 2 after the 1.1 patch were forced to use the BR because of how good it is. It simply dominated everything other weapon because of a lot of variables. In Halo 3 players are forced to use the BR because there isn't another option in most cases (since Carbine spawns are rare, as are M6G spawns). Players use the H3 BR not because it's skillful but because they are forced to.

If I controlled Halo, I'd make the Carbine have a more defined role. Right now it's completely overshadowed by the BR. I'd also however make it very easy for the BR to overpower it. Without superbly high skill with the Carbine the BR would beat it consistently. Much like the M6G is now. Now I haven't tried but I've been told that you can 5sk with the M6G quicker than you can 5sk with the BR. I'm not sure if that's true, but ideally that's the role I see the Carbine fitting in. Of course none of this really matters because it won't change.

As to Dan and him insisting that I don't understand. I completely do understand. You are trying to make a "run and gun" FPS play like a "strategic" FPS. One of the big differences for me (and I'd imagine all who use such moniker) is a "strategic" FPS has incorporated reticule bloom. Halo doesn't nor has it ever. And IMO nor should it ever. If I want to play a "strategic" FPS I can go play Shadowrun, or GRAW, or SOCOM, or even CS. I don't expect Halo to conform to my expectations of a "strategic" shooter. It's run and gun. It's been run and gun since the beginning. You like the way you can control randomness by movement or rate of fire (ie a "strategic" FPS). I personally think that would be a terrible element to bring to Halo. I understand that Halo is "run and gun" so adding variants upon those two variables (run = movement and gun = rate of fire) seems pretty counterproductive to me. So adding random variables based upon distance seems (to me) a fair trade off. Which it seems might have been how the development team went about the decision. I don't know I haven't asked them that specific question.

However, if given the option and they said Halo's randomness can either be controlled/mitigated by either a combination of movement and rate of fire or it can be controlled/mitigated by distance; I'd pick distance every time. That's just how I see Halo's role as an FPS. Which is why I'd guess a lot of people play Halo over the more "strategic" FPS games. It just feels like a better option for them.

~B.B.

[Edited on 12.16.2008 10:39 AM PST]

  • 12.16.2008 10:37 AM PDT