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  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
Subject: The Only BR Thread

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

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Posted by: Gazas
I simply thought that that was the problem people were talking about and that they never lead their shot, miss, and come back here to complain =)

I didn't know about the whole spread thing.


It's fairly simple, basically there are two sides here:

- People who like the BR the way it is and accept the long distance spread as a way for the game to stay balanced.
- People who want the BR changed to a Sniper Rifle and complain that the BR is broken just because it doesn't fire all of the way across Standoff with 100% accuracy.

  • 01.12.2009 7:45 AM PDT

Posted by: Air Sparrow
FYI, I was around when Halo 2 first got released. I played the original Halo prior to that and prior to that I played it for the PC. I have history behind me in Halo. Secondly, I have modded Halo 2 before and looked through the files for Halo 3 (good practice for in a few years time when I go into the industry but anyways) and I know the statistics built into the games as a result. I also have many hours of combat in-game and I know what the Sniper is like. Typically you'd begin on a large map, say Coagulation or Headlong, then you'd see a player grab the sniper and hide. He pops out to take a shot but oh no! He just got Team BRed by the other team from sniping distance.

I'm not saying that the Sniper was useless, I'm saying that the BRs were given far too much range.
Well first I'm pretty sure that Halo 1 was on the console before the PC. Secondly head over to MLGpro.com and look at some halo 2 VOD on lockout or sanctuary and you will see how much of a power weapon the sniper is. The sniper was far easier to use in halo 2 and no scope with thats why it was still a power weapon. Not that I agree with the ease of use of the weapons in halo 2.

Have you ever played another game before or fired a real gun? The shot always comes off warped, even a Sniper isn't accurate beyond a certain distance. The BR is only meant for a maximum distance of across a small map from one side to the other such as across Guardian or Blackout. Any further means that you are not using the correct weapon for the job and thus are a bad player. A bad craftsman blame their tools you know. Yes I have played halo 1 thanks. I don't care about the realism argument it isn't relevant and does not make fun games, besides if you want to apply realism then it should be done consistently not adhered to in the extreme in certain areas but ignored in others. Ok well next time I'm getting shot at by another player with a BR and I have no cover to use I will whip out my AR as I wouldn't want to be a 'bad player' and use the BR out of it's intended range. You have to admit that the player is forced into situations where an in game mechanic influences the outcome of encounters and takes control away from the player.

The Halo 1 Pistol was a portable Mac-Cannon. lol

But seriously, the Halo 1 Pistol was rediculously overpowered. It was a miniature Sniper and is probably superior to the Halo 2 & 3 BRS (three shot and it fires faster). In Halo 3, dual wield pistols, there is a set of two lying side by side on pretty much every map. They kill in four shots and fire faster than a BR. Use those if you like the Pistol so much.
3 shots is very difficult and requires pin point accuracy not approximate accuracy. The other weapons in halo 1 were more powerful as well so it balanced the game, you always had a fair chance with the pistol but the sniper/rockets/shotgun/AR/plasma rifle were all superior when used to their strengths. The magnum in halo 3 has a spread and the bullets seem to just disappear after a certain range but even so it is perhaps the most satisfying weapon to use.

If you decide to use the BR though then remember, don't mash the trigger. It's a common mistake people make that they ram the trigger as hard and as fast as possible. Slow down the pace a little and time your shots, give a split second gap between each shot otherwise the kickback builds up and loses a lot of accuracy over a distance. I find it amusing that you attempt to patronize me even though I am the one with a 50.

  • 01.12.2009 8:24 AM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

Posted by: Prodigy117
Well first I'm pretty sure that Halo 1 was on the console before the PC. Secondly head over to MLGpro.com and look at some halo 2 VOD on lockout or sanctuary and you will see how much of a power weapon the sniper is. The sniper was far easier to use in halo 2 and no scope with thats why it was still a power weapon. Not that I agree with the ease of use of the weapons in halo 2.


Thanks for stating the obvious with Halo's release order. I meant I played Halo 1 on the PC before I played it on the Xbox. I never said it was released on the PC first.

Now onto the Sniper Rifle, in Halo 2 it had this little thing called Hitscan. Basically the Hitscan in Halo 2 means than if you pull the trigger and have the reticule over someone, it would guarantee the shot. Reguardless of distance or if they took cover before the bullet it. This lead to scenarios where people were Sniped around corners as they moved to take cover. Bungie rectified this in Halo 3 by removing hitscan from all weapons. Making it a far more skillful game. On a map the size of Lockout or Sanctuary a player could dominate with no scopes with minimum effort due to the hitscan, meaning the BR had no long-distance comparison chances.

Posted by: Prodigy117
Yes I have played halo 1 thanks. I don't care about the realism argument it isn't relevant and does not make fun games, besides if you want to apply realism then it should be done consistently not adhered to in the extreme in certain areas but ignored in others. Ok well next time I'm getting shot at by another player with a BR and I have no cover to use I will whip out my AR as I wouldn't want to be a 'bad player' and use the BR out of it's intended range. You have to admit that the player is forced into situations where an in game mechanic influences the outcome of encounters and takes control away from the player.


I wasn't asking you if you had played Halo 1, I didn't even make any reference to it.

Anyways, the realism argument is relevant. All physics in any game must originally root in real-life physics. The end result may be different albeit but the original intention is the same. And you say that if there is realism it is inconsistant in different areas? Do you mean that the BR is superior on some maps in contrast to others? I don't understand what exactly you mean.

As for matching up weapons, an AR is intended for a very close range, I'd say that the maximum effective range is possibly from one side of top gold to the other on Guardian. Any further a BR is superior. Even across that small distance a BR can still be superior. The problem lies with using the BR with a target that is further than the intended range. In which case you'd need a Sniper, not a BR.

Posted by: Prodigy117
3 shots is very difficult and requires pin point accuracy not approximate accuracy. The other weapons in halo 1 were more powerful as well so it balanced the game, you always had a fair chance with the pistol but the sniper/rockets/shotgun/AR/plasma rifle were all superior when used to their strengths. The magnum in halo 3 has a spread and the bullets seem to just disappear after a certain range but even so it is perhaps the most satisfying weapon to use.


I agree, 3 shots was difficult at long range with the Halo 1 Pistol. But if you used it at it's intended distance it could overpower any other weapon besides the Rockets and Sniper. I remember seeing old Halo 1 PC videos where it was used by the Professional standard rather than the AR. In Halo 3 it has a very long range but this is to compensate for it's limited power. It actually has superior range and accuracy to the BR. I also agree that it is the most satisfying weapon to use, and the reload looks like a hand jive. :)

Posted by: Prodigy117
I find it amusing that you attempt to patronize me even though I am the one with a 50.


And I find it amusing that you think you are superior just because you have a 50.

  • 01.12.2009 8:48 AM PDT

Posted by: Air Sparrow
Posted by: Gazas
I simply thought that that was the problem people were talking about and that they never lead their shot, miss, and come back here to complain =)

I didn't know about the whole spread thing.


It's fairly simple, basically there are two sides here:

- People who like the BR the way it is and accept the long distance spread as a way for the game to stay balanced.
- People who want the BR changed to a Sniper Rifle and complain that the BR is broken just because it doesn't fire all of the way across Standoff with 100% accuracy.
You realize that their is no auto-aim or magnetism at that distance? Getting a four shot kill would still never happen against moving targets at the distance you are describing. You also seem to ignore the fact that the BR only has a 2x zoom, making distance shooting even more difficult. The BR would not become a sniper rifle if the spread was removed.

You might want to add "People who post useless and opinionated oversimplifications of the discussion" to your list.

  • 01.12.2009 8:51 AM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

Posted by: Nokterne
You realize that their is no auto-aim or magnetism at that distance? Getting a four shot kill would still never happen against moving targets at the distance you are describing. You also seem to ignore the fact that the BR only has a 2x zoom, making distance shooting even more difficult. The BR would not become a sniper rifle if the spread was removed.

You might want to add "People who post useless and opinionated oversimplifications of the discussion" to your list.


Yes I realise that there is no auto-aim or magnetism, but at that distance it is the same with a the Sniper anyhow, no auto-aim and no magnetism. And yes I am aware that the BR only has a 2x zoom, but the second zoom on the Sniper tends to be useless anyhow, I've never bothered with the second zoom. So its 2x zoom to 5x zoom, that could win or lose a game right? I guess you are partially right, the BR wouldn't become a Sniper Rifle but it'd do to the Sniper on Halo 3 what it did to it on Halo 2. Devalue.

Also I really don't think adding your subcatergory to my list would help. Probably because my list is basically perfect as it is. :)

  • 01.12.2009 9:01 AM PDT
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The Mythic Threads (Halo 3) (ODST) (Reach)

Posted by: Nokterne
Posted by: Air Sparrow
Posted by: Gazas
I simply thought that that was the problem people were talking about and that they never lead their shot, miss, and come back here to complain =)

I didn't know about the whole spread thing.


It's fairly simple, basically there are two sides here:

- People who like the BR the way it is and accept the long distance spread as a way for the game to stay balanced.
- People who want the BR changed to a Sniper Rifle and complain that the BR is broken just because it doesn't fire all of the way across Standoff with 100% accuracy.


You might want to add "People who post useless and opinionated oversimplifications of the discussion" to your list.


Are you using me as an example?

  • 01.12.2009 9:09 AM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

Posted by: Gazas
Posted by: Nokterne
You might want to add "People who post useless and opinionated oversimplifications of the discussion" to your list.


Are you using me as an example?


No, he's targeting me. I tried to simplify the discussion and now he's blowing a fuse over it. :(

  • 01.12.2009 9:20 AM PDT
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The Mythic Threads (Halo 3) (ODST) (Reach)

Posted by: Air Sparrow
Posted by: Gazas
Posted by: Nokterne
You might want to add "People who post useless and opinionated oversimplifications of the discussion" to your list.


Are you using me as an example?


No, he's targeting me. I tried to simplify the discussion and now he's blowing a fuse over it. :(
No need to spice up an argument by saying bad stuff now... =)

  • 01.12.2009 9:23 AM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

Posted by: Gazas
Posted by: Air Sparrow
No, he's targeting me. I tried to simplify the discussion and now he's blowing a fuse over it. :(
No need to spice up an argument by saying bad stuff now... =)


You're right. My bad. I was just trying to simplify all of this is all. :)

  • 01.12.2009 9:56 AM PDT

Posted by: Air Sparrow
Yes I realise that there is no auto-aim or magnetism, but at that distance it is the same with a the Sniper anyhow, no auto-aim and no magnetism.
Red reticle on sniper = magnetism. Try sniping your teammates.
And yes I am aware that the BR only has a 2x zoom, but the second zoom on the Sniper tends to be useless anyhow, I've never bothered with the second zoom. So its 2x zoom to 5x zoom, that could win or lose a game right? Try sniping across Standoff on splitscreen using 5x zoom. Try following a moving, dodging target at long range on Standoff with the 2x scope on the BR (while leading your shots as well). If you can do this, you deserve the 4-5 shot kill.

I guess you are partially right, the BR wouldn't become a Sniper Rifle but it'd do to the Sniper on Halo 3 what it did to it on Halo 2. Devalue. I would argue that sniping against long range BR users is too easy as it is right now. Especially at the Standoff range we are currently using.

Also I really don't think adding your subcatergory to my list would help. Probably because my list is basically perfect as it is. :) Hmm. Well after looking through other posts in this thread, you could add "People who don't understand the issue in the first place."

My point is that labelling either side of the argument is pointless, and will most likely result in people taking you less seriously and retorting (as I did). Your summarization of the "anti-BR spread" side was both mistaken and a gross oversimplification.

  • 01.12.2009 10:32 AM PDT

Posted by: Gazas
Are you using me as an example?
No.

[Edited on 01.12.2009 10:33 AM PST]

  • 01.12.2009 10:33 AM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

Posted by: Nokterne
Red reticle on sniper = magnetism. Try sniping your teammates.


But from the distance of across Standoff there is no magnetism or auto-aim. Both have their effectiveness reduced to nil at a certain distance.

Posted by: Nokterne
Try sniping across Standoff on splitscreen using 5x zoom. Try following a moving, dodging target at long range on Standoff with the 2x scope on the BR (while leading your shots as well). If you can do this, you deserve the 4-5 shot kill.


No you don't, because you are not using the BR at it's intended distance. If you need to kill someone at that distance on Standoff, use a Laser.

Posted by: Nokterne
I would argue that sniping against long range BR users is too easy as it is right now. Especially at the Standoff range we are currently using.


Hence the reason there is no Sniper on Standoff. The Sniper should be pretty much dominant at long range like the Shotgun is at close range.

Posted by: Nokterne
Hmm. Well after looking through other posts in this thread, you could add "People who don't understand the issue in the first place."


Or I could just scrap your idea in it's entirety due to it's troll-like nature.

Posted by: Nokterne
My point is that labelling either side of the argument is pointless, and will most likely result in people taking you less seriously and retorting (as I did). Your summarization of the "anti-BR spread" side was both mistaken and a gross oversimplification.


Well I'm sorry for trying to simplify it then. If you really wanted to make a point you could have just replied to my post with: "Close but not quite, the actual reasons are probably more like..."

Argument ended. :)

Easy stuff isn't it? Sadly, no one takes the time to think things through before they take action. Hence the reason many people try to use a BR at Sniping distance. :)

  • 01.12.2009 12:28 PM PDT

Posted by: Air Sparrow
Now onto the Sniper Rifle, in Halo 2 it had this little thing called Hitscan. Basically the Hitscan in Halo 2 means than if you pull the trigger and have the reticule over someone, it would guarantee the shot. Reguardless of distance or if they took cover before the bullet it. This lead to scenarios where people were Sniped around corners as they moved to take cover. Bungie rectified this in Halo 3 by removing hitscan from all weapons. Making it a far more skillful game. On a map the size of Lockout or Sanctuary a player could dominate with no scopes with minimum effort due to the hitscan, meaning the BR had no long-distance comparison chances.
Thank you for countering your own argument that the BR rendered the sniper almost useless in H2.

I wasn't asking you if you had played Halo 1, I didn't even make any reference to it.

Anyways, the realism argument is relevant. All physics in any game must originally root in real-life physics. The end result may be different albeit but the original intention is the same. And you say that if there is realism it is inconsistant in different areas? Do you mean that the BR is superior on some maps in contrast to others? I don't understand what exactly you mean.
My point is that if you are going to the extent of adding a random spread to the Br for the sake of realism then you shouldn't allow master chief to flip elephants with his bare hands when he can't even minimise the recoil of a rifle. There are a hundred other examples of inconsistently applied realism. Its completely unnecessary and game breaking to have a spread on the BR, obviously you have no issue with the game being dumbed down but I find it disappointing.

As for matching up weapons, an AR is intended for a very close range, I'd say that the maximum effective range is possibly from one side of top gold to the other on Guardian. Any further a BR is superior. Even across that small distance a BR can still be superior. The problem lies with using the BR with a target that is further than the intended range. In which case you'd need a Sniper, not a BR. Ok well I'll just whip my sniper out whenever I'm out of the intended range of the BR even though there is a maximum of 2 snipers on each map with a long respawn time, then when it comes to close range I'll whip out my shotgun, medium range my BR, if I see a warthog I'll take the appropriate course of action and get out my laser, unfortunately I can only carry 2 weapons and as what I have access to is limited you can't just say use a sniper at a certain range because 90% of the time you wont have one. There are inevitably lots of situations where you either use the BR out of its intended range or die so you are forced as i said before to rely on a random in game mechanic. Even within its intended range a player can benefit from a tighter or wider spread so there are still elements of randomness.

And I find it amusing that you think you are superior just because you have a 50. Generally speaking people with greater qualifications, experience or achievement in a certain area are considered superior when it comes to there knowledge and understanding of that area.

  • 01.12.2009 3:25 PM PDT
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Halo CE > Halo 3 > Halo 2

Fix the Halo 3 BR spread, plz.

No you don't, because you are not using the BR at it's intended distance. If you need to kill someone at that distance on Standoff, use a Laser.
This is the kind of stale gameplay that is ruining Halo. The fact that each weapon has one use, not dynamic uses. Halo CE was a great game because the majority of the weapons didn't only work in the range designated to them. The weapon design in Halo 3 is a forced linear type of thing. They tell you when you can use a weapon. The range wasn't limited in Halo CE by bullet spreads, but by the size of the target and the lack of auto-aim at that distance. If you can hit someone across a map with no auto-aim, you've got some pretty mad skills, considering the person would be microscopic on your screen at that distance. The game should reward mad skills over rock paper scissors type gameplay.

  • 01.12.2009 4:28 PM PDT
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I just got 1 thing to say to everybody in this thread. . . .

ITS A FRIEKING GAME SO GET USED TO IT

the battle rifle is how its suppose to be. if u dont like it. use the covenient carbine.

  • 01.12.2009 4:31 PM PDT

Air Sparrow, there is a difference between romoving the niche range of the BR and it becoming a sniper rifle. Having every weapon have a specific range basically turns Halo into a rock-paper-scissors style of game, where the person holding the right weapon at the right time wins an encounter 90% of the time.

A better system would be to have a balanced weapon that is moderately effective at all ranges (the BR without the spread), accompanied by power weapons that are super-effective in specific situations. Players must then judge the value of a weapon before picking it up depending on their current situation, while also deciding whether holding two speciality weapons is worth not having the widely useful no-spread BR (as opposed to the niche intended range, spread BR).

  • 01.12.2009 4:38 PM PDT

Multiplayer Gameplay
Halo:CE------------------Reach--------Halo2-----------------H alo3
Campaign Experience
Reach----Halo:CE-----------------ODST-----Halo2---------Halo3

Glad that Halo 3 garbage is dead, thanks to Reach.
Unfreakenbelievable!!

Posted by: davfmy
the battle rifle is how its suppose to be. if u dont like it. use the covenient carbine.
...or the Magnum (M6G). All of them are quite random and sporadic. Therefore, trying to use other weapons will not help the lack of enjoyment towards randomly missing or getting an undeserved kill. Though, the M6G is much more satisfying, yet frustrating due to its randomness and range.

To be honest, if the M6G shot consistently in the middle of the reticule, Halo 3 would be the second best game for XBox of all time. I could care less if they keep random elements in the other weapons.

[Edited on 01.12.2009 5:01 PM PST]

  • 01.12.2009 4:45 PM PDT

Multiplayer Gameplay
Halo:CE------------------Reach--------Halo2-----------------H alo3
Campaign Experience
Reach----Halo:CE-----------------ODST-----Halo2---------Halo3

Glad that Halo 3 garbage is dead, thanks to Reach.
Unfreakenbelievable!!

Posted by: Foahda
The range wasn't limited in Halo CE by bullet spreads, but by the size of the target and the lack of auto-aim at that distance.
That's not entirely accurate. The AR and Shotgun had a spread. I can't remember if the Plasma-based weapons shot randomly. I don't think they did, but their bullet speed controlled the range, which is how I think range SHOULD be controlled. Not some uncontrollable, inconsistent element. Even the M6D was random, but could be controlled by the RoF to shoot consistently.

The funny thing is people actually compare these random spreads to realism, as if they prefer realistic gameplay over enjoyment. Although, I do sometimes complain about unrealistic gameplay when I get sniped by an inconsistent Shotgun. Gotta love that.

It seems like Halo 3 is bringing in a whole new generation of gamers. I'm seeing many people say they hate the M6G. I have NO idea how. It's the one thing I find satisfying = fun. Its functionality is somewhat comparable to the M6D, which was the one of the main things that made me a Halo fan. If Bungie, over night, decided to completely take out the randomness of the M6G, nobody would even realize it, since it would be balanced by lack of magnetism and a scope.

[Edited on 01.12.2009 5:28 PM PST]

  • 01.12.2009 4:57 PM PDT
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keep doing what you are doing the Battle Rifle is a perfect its alot better then running around with Assult rifle
Posted by: Achronos
Due to the incessant amount of spam and repeat posting about the topic of the design of the Battle Rifle in Halo 3, all threads about it will be locked on sight and the author warned (then banned if they keep doing it). Please discuss the BR and your thoughts in this thread and this thread alone.

For reference, Bungie's response to all comments and complaints about the design of the Battle Rifle can be found in the weekly update for June 20th, 2008.

People expecting further Bungie responses on the issue are likely to be disappointed.

  • 01.12.2009 6:51 PM PDT
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Why didnt this include a poll.

Poll options:

1.The BR is good as it is
2.The BR could use some tweaking (add specifications)
3.I want the Halo 2 BR back and changing it is just a bad excuse for poor netcode.

Without being a BR whore I'd vote for #3 any day.

  • 01.12.2009 8:01 PM PDT

Posted by: Air Sparrow
No you don't, because you are not using the BR at it's intended distance. If you need to kill someone at that distance on Standoff, use a Laser.

So if you are skilled enough to hit a player at long range, you only deserve the kill if you're using a weapon that makes it easy to kill someone at long range? That's a terrible argument.


Posted by: Air Sparrow
Hence the reason there is no Sniper on Standoff. The Sniper should be pretty much dominant at long range like the Shotgun is at close range.


Then what the hell is the point of having levels the size of Standoff, Sandtrap, Valhalla, etc.? Why are there these gigantic levels when the game forces everyone to engage from 20 feet away? Why is Bungie so reluctant to allow players to engage at every distance, in a wider variety of situations? Why does the game have to be almost exclusively played up close? There would be more replayability, more variety and generally more fun if we had a utility weapon that allowed a player to play the game how they want, not how the weapons force them to.

You might think that if the BR had a longer range, that people would never get to fight up close, or that they would die without knowing where they were getting hit from. Both of those arguments are completely incorrect. The majority of the levels provide areas where both close range combat is forced and where long range combat is warranted, although we only have the option to play in the close range parts of the level. Also, if a player stands out in the open, and stands still, long enough for a player to 4 shot kill them from across the map, they deserve to die for making a stupid play or the other player is extremely good, and they are playing above their level.


Posted by: Air Sparrow
Easy stuff isn't it? Sadly, no one takes the time to think things through before they take action. Hence the reason many people try to use a BR at Sniping distance. :)


Actually, they do. There is very little thinking required in determining the effective use of each weapon in Halo 3, in fact, its painfully obvious. Each one does well in one specific instance, and thats about it. Its a rock paper scissors balance, as I, and numerous others, have said before. Its a very weak type of balance, and it has driven away a lot of players.

People try to use the BR at sniper distance because thats the best they have at that given time.


Posted by: Batzter
Why didnt this include a poll.

Poll options:

1.The BR is good as it is
2.The BR could use some tweaking (add specifications)
3.I want the Halo 2 BR back and changing it is just a bad excuse for poor netcode.

Without being a BR whore I'd vote for #3 any day.


Because they did have a poll and it was overwhelming (2:1) against Bungie's poor design. So they locked and deleted the poll and made this thread, with the threat of banning to anyone who made another thread or poll.

Also, the Halo 2 BR would be fine if the Magnetism and AA was toned WAY down. I would, however, prefer a single shot BR, like the one shown in E3 03.

[Edited on 01.12.2009 8:09 PM PST]

  • 01.12.2009 8:05 PM PDT
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haha some of the comments in this thread are hillarious. The problem is like so many people have said and im adding to is the fact people got used to the Halo 2 BR system and now cant use the BR in Halo 3 because the system for it is different. .If you cant hit them with the BR in Halo 3 then maybe its a laggy game or that player has lag.

Good tip: Practice with it, Learn how the BR works for short range and long range and if your accuracy isnt good then sort out your sensitivity. Once you have tried all of these things then you can complain about the BR.

And if you really need any help with your BR I will get my friend to upload a Map and Game Varient to his fileshare, that he downloaded, for all to download as me and my friends always warm up with BR using it and its Amazing! His gamertag is: 'L0ngb0y'.

anyway hope this helps someone

[Edited on 01.13.2009 5:23 AM PST]

  • 01.13.2009 5:16 AM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

Now onto the Sniper Rifle, in Halo 2 it had this little thing called Hitscan. Basically the Hitscan in Halo 2 means than if you pull the trigger and have the reticule over someone, it would guarantee the shot. Reguardless of distance or if they took cover before the bullet it. This lead to scenarios where people were Sniped around corners as they moved to take cover. Bungie rectified this in Halo 3 by removing hitscan from all weapons. Making it a far more skillful game. On a map the size of Lockout or Sanctuary a player could dominate with no scopes with minimum effort due to the hitscan, meaning the BR had no long-distance comparison chances. Thank you for countering your own argument that the BR rendered the sniper almost useless in H2.

Please re-read the above statement.

Basically what I meant is that the balance was messed up, take Headlong or Coagulation. The Sniper was rendered useless by the BR's long-range capabilities. However on a smaller map there are no long-range areas and thus the BR has no long-range advantages.

Anyways, the realism argument is relevant. All physics in any game must originally root in real-life physics. The end result may be different albeit but the original intention is the same. And you say that if there is realism it is inconsistant in different areas? Do you mean that the BR is superior on some maps in contrast to others? I don't understand what exactly you mean. My point is that if you are going to the extent of adding a random spread to the Br for the sake of realism then you shouldn't allow master chief to flip elephants with his bare hands when he can't even minimise the recoil of a rifle. There are a hundred other examples of inconsistently applied realism. Its completely unnecessary and game breaking to have a spread on the BR, obviously you have no issue with the game being dumbed down but I find it disappointing.

Again, re-read the above statement.

I meant the original physics had to mimic that of reality. Kickback is a must in any FPS game. Without it you are rewarded for badly timed shots with no rhythm. Kickback also provides a much needed cap on the maximum effective distance of a weapon. The BR is a good example.

As for matching up weapons, an AR is intended for a very close range, I'd say that the maximum effective range is possibly from one side of top gold to the other on Guardian. Any further a BR is superior. Even across that small distance a BR can still be superior. The problem lies with using the BR with a target that is further than the intended range. In which case you'd need a Sniper, not a BR. Ok well I'll just whip my sniper out whenever I'm out of the intended range of the BR even though there is a maximum of 2 snipers on each map with a long respawn time, then when it comes to close range I'll whip out my shotgun, medium range my BR, if I see a warthog I'll take the appropriate course of action and get out my laser, unfortunately I can only carry 2 weapons and as what I have access to is limited you can't just say use a sniper at a certain range because 90% of the time you wont have one. There are inevitably lots of situations where you either use the BR out of its intended range or die so you are forced as i said before to rely on a random in game mechanic. Even within its intended range a player can benefit from a tighter or wider spread so there are still elements of randomness.

You forget that in almost every playlist and gametype, it is team based. Especially MLG which is where most of the H3 BR hate comes from. Surely someone on your team would have a Sniper if you were playing TS? In Matchmaking I'd guess at least one of you would have a Shotgun and on a map larger map which is Vehicle based your team should also have the laser. You can't take it on yourself to take out every enemy on the opposing team at once, it might be possible but at all different ranges it is downright difficult. Rely on your team more to do their job. If you are being shot at by a Sniper on Valhalla, take cover and call him out to your Sniper or a closer ally with a BR.

And I find it amusing that you think you are superior just because you have a 50. Generally speaking people with greater qualifications, experience or achievement in a certain area are considered superior when it comes to there knowledge and understanding of that area.

That generally isn't true, consider that around 75% of Generals are either cheaters or rely on a host status for the win. I myself might only be a Brigadier with an extremely poor K/D but I'm also still on my first account and never get host, in game I'm not only fighting the opponent. I'm fighting the latency that they have. This renders most of my close-range fighting useless as they will always be automatically given an extra second to counter me. Even mid-range BRing for me is sponged all of the time and as a result the best I can hope for is a five shot, despite the fact that I can constantly four shot offline against opponents of a much higher caliber.

So before you go and state that you are superior because of a little symbol, think about the fact that the majority of people who deserve Generals play with a constant handicap and thus are stuck at Brigadier instead.

This is the kind of stale gameplay that is ruining Halo. The fact that each weapon has one use, not dynamic uses. Halo CE was a great game because the majority of the weapons didn't only work in the range designated to them. The weapon design in Halo 3 is a forced linear type of thing. They tell you when you can use a weapon. The range wasn't limited in Halo CE by bullet spreads, but by the size of the target and the lack of auto-aim at that distance. If you can hit someone across a map with no auto-aim, you've got some pretty mad skills, considering the person would be microscopic on your screen at that distance. The game should reward mad skills over rock paper scissors type gameplay.

You could argue that but I could argue that if the BR had no spread then it would become the ultimate weapon. The Sniper would become a close-range no-scoping tool only and many of the other weapons in the game would become useless.

Air Sparrow, there is a difference between romoving the niche range of the BR and it becoming a sniper rifle. Having every weapon have a specific range basically turns Halo into a rock-paper-scissors style of game, where the person holding the right weapon at the right time wins an encounter 90% of the time.

Yes, it makes the game very balanced doesn't it? That ultimately decides gameplay. When you have two legitimate Generals of the same caliber fighting each other, the one with the most effective weapon will win. This comes down to aim, weapon, distance, grenade use, map use and connection. Since both Generals would have around the same degree of Aim (a perfect four shot to be fair) and the same degree of skill in Grenade use then it just comes down to the position on the map and the use of it, the weapon and the distance. If they are fighting across Standoff; one with a Sniper and one with a BR, the Sniper should always win. The BR is being used at an ineffective distance and thus it fails to cope with the situation. However, in most situations you will have a team you can rely on and thus you can call out the Sniper's position and work a quick strategy to take him out.

A better system would be to have a balanced weapon that is moderately effective at all ranges (the BR without the spread), accompanied by power weapons that are super-effective in specific situations. Players must then judge the value of a weapon before picking it up depending on their current situation, while also deciding whether holding two speciality weapons is worth not having the widely useful no-spread BR (as opposed to the niche intended range, spread BR).

The widely useful no-spread BR would just change the way the game of rock-paper-scissors works. The Sniper would become ineffective on large maps and would become a tool for no-scoping on smaller maps where the BR is also ineffective.

  • 01.13.2009 5:35 AM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

Part 2...

So if you are skilled enough to hit a player at long range, you only deserve the kill if you're using a weapon that makes it easy to kill someone at long range? That's a terrible argument.

That's what I'm saying. Halo 3, when played by players of similar skill, is simply a more complicated version of Rock-Paper-Scissors. If you are trying to use the BR like a Sniper then you are simply trying to abuse it's effectiveness and exploit it for a range it is not intended for. If you can't take out an opponent from that range, call out the opponent to your team mates nearby.

Then what the hell is the point of having levels the size of Standoff, Sandtrap, Valhalla, etc.? Why are there these gigantic levels when the game forces everyone to engage from 20 feet away? Why is Bungie so reluctant to allow players to engage at every distance, in a wider variety of situations? Why does the game have to be almost exclusively played up close? There would be more replayability, more variety and generally more fun if we had a utility weapon that allowed a player to play the game how they want, not how the weapons force them to.

You forget about Vehicle use, the thing most people care about when playing Halo is fun. Vehicles add to the fun by making the game more chaotic, now for Balance purposes you couldn't have a Warthog on Guardian or Blackout for example, they are just too small, even if they were completely flat the warthog would be able to barely move. You need a larger level such as Standoff, Sandtrap and Valhalla to be able to move freely. I know personally that one of the things on Halo that is the most fun is driving a Warthog like a madman with a friend in the turret, gunning down the enemy, then getting lasered after five or ten kills. The Lasers and Missile Pods are there to rebalance the situation so the players can fight back against vehicles effectively. However they are also given limited ammo so that their use is also limited to destroying vehicles rather than players.

You might think that if the BR had a longer range, that people would never get to fight up close, or that they would die without knowing where they were getting hit from. Both of those arguments are completely incorrect. The majority of the levels provide areas where both close range combat is forced and where long range combat is warranted, although we only have the option to play in the close range parts of the level. Also, if a player stands out in the open, and stands still, long enough for a player to 4 shot kill them from across the map, they deserve to die for making a stupid play or the other player is extremely good, and they are playing above their level.

I agree, even if the BR had a longer range it would still be used frequently up close. However it would eliminate the point of long-range Sniping and result in Snipers being used as no-scoping tools only. The point is that if the BR's spread was removed then it would be the only weapon ever used by any players at a long range and thus force the Snipers to decline to close-range.

Actually, they do. There is very little thinking required in determining the effective use of each weapon in Halo 3, in fact, its painfully obvious. Each one does well in one specific instance, and thats about it. Its a rock paper scissors balance, as I, and numerous others, have said before. Its a very weak type of balance, and it has driven away a lot of players.

People try to use the BR at sniper distance because thats the best they have at that given time.


If that's what you think then you clearly just aren't using your team enough. If the BR is the best weapon you have to use across Standoff, don't think you can get a four shot on an enemy on the other side of the map, tell an ally who is close by and assist him with long-range fire from your BR. Your team mates will love you. :)

  • 01.13.2009 5:35 AM PDT

Air Sparrow

It would seem we have a B.B. Junior.

The sniper in halo 2 was still very useful at long range and easy to use due to swipe-sniping. It was a power weapon in every sense, there is really no argument to be had.

Who says kickback is a must in FPS games? Nothing is a must in any game, you can design it how you like however the objective should be gameplay not realism. You can easily fire the BR at its max ROF without it affecting accuracy so the kickback barely has any effect I don't even conciously adjust for it nor do I with the sniper. Regardless it is simply not necessary for the BR to be a burst weapon that is innaccurate with a severely limited range.

Maps are not open fields where your teammates can see everyone that you can, it is simply not possible for them to snipe your long range targets all the time and for them to shotgun your close range targets is a ludicrous statement. The BR spread is excessive and random and there is no way that it can be disputed that this leads to unnecessary random factors influencing the game and a general dumbing down of the game when it comes to dexteritiy and co-ordination.

As to all generals getting 50s because they have host or cheat I live in the UK and play off-host nearly all the time yet I still have a 50, 4 actually. If you think I cheated please show me how. I do concede that it is more difficult but you are no more disadvantaged than me.

You seem not to consider the fact that the sniper kills in 1 headshot or 2 bodyshots and the BR kills in a min of 4 shots providing the last 1 is a headshot. You also seem not to consider that the sniper has 10x zoom and the BR only has 2x zoom making it far easier to aim the sniper at range. One more thing you don't take into consideration is that the sniper has reticle magnetism and auto-aim at a far greater range than the BR. Finally the sniper requires no leading unless you are at extreme ranges probably only applicable on Sandtrap and the BR requires leading at medium range. So if the BR had a tighter spread / no spread or was single shot it would not over power the sniper. If the BR was single shot it would actually take significantly more skill to get headshots with. Even in halo 1 where you have a 3 shot pistol with a decent range the sniper is still a power weapon and more suited to long range.

[Edited on 01.13.2009 6:13 AM PST]

  • 01.13.2009 6:04 AM PDT