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  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
Subject: The Only BR Thread

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU


Air Sparrow

It would seem we have a B.B. Junior.


Who's B.B?

The sniper in halo 2 was still very useful at long range and easy to use due to swipe-sniping. It was a power weapon in every sense, there is really no argument to be had.

I never really felt it as a power weapon, especially on large maps such as Coagulation. As soon as a Sniper set up on the cliffside they were immediately disposed of by BR fire. This should never happen. The Sniper should be dominating the BR at that range but yet it didn't. The only range it dominated at besides point blank was to the distance where you couldn't even see your opponent. That was where the scope actually came in handy.

Who says kickback is a must in FPS games? Nothing is a must in any game, you can design it how you like however the objective should be gameplay not realism. You can easily fire the BR at its max ROF without it affecting accuracy so the kickback barely has any effect I don't even conciously adjust for it nor do I with the sniper. Regardless it is simply not necessary for the BR to be a burst weapon that is innaccurate with a severely limited range.

When firing at the distance of one side of Standoff to the other, kickback has a substantial effect. Check the file on my fileshare named BR Test 1 for a demonstration. To be quite honest it wouldn't be a very good game if every player you came across just rammed the trigger and always got the win, the kickback is in place to limit the range and reward players with kills when their shots are well-timed and rythmic, which takes far more skill than trigger-mashing.

Maps are not open fields where your teammates can see everyone that you can, it is simply not possible for them to snipe your long range targets all the time and for them to shotgun your close range targets is a ludicrous statement. The BR spread is excessive and random and there is no way that it can be disputed that this leads to unnecessary random factors influencing the game and a general dumbing down of the game when it comes to dexteritiy and co-ordination.

I agree, your team mates can't see through your eyes. Thats why we use callouts effectively to describe the position of the spotted enemies. Then our team mates can figure out a position to attack from. It's all teamwork in the upper levels of MLG so you might as well get used to it being a factor in Halo 3.

As to all generals getting 50s because they have host or cheat I live in the UK and play off-host nearly all the time yet I still have a 50, 4 actually. If you think I cheated please show me how. I do concede that it is more difficult but you are no more disadvantaged than me.

I never stated you cheated or that all Generals cheating or winning on-host. I simply said that 75% of Generals either cheat for their rank or play on-host. It's the reason I prefer SWAT over most gametypes competitively, less sponging and less latency. Less handicap = I'm able to carry my team when they fail and they carry me when I fail. I also live in the UK so I fight the American latency all the time just like you. But in any case, just because you have a 50 you automatically assume you are superior to other players of lower rank? Could it be possible that you just get host more than me? Could it be possible that your team usually goes positive and don't need carrying? Don't assume you are better than someone in every way just because you have General. Skill does not make knowledge, knowledge makes skill.

You seem not to consider the fact that the sniper kills in 1 headshot or 2 bodyshots and the BR kills in a min of 4 shots providing the last 1 is a headshot. You also seem not to consider that the sniper has 10x zoom and the BR only has 2x zoom making it far easier to aim the sniper at range. One more thing you don't take into consideration is that the sniper has reticle magnetism and auto-aim at a far greater range than the BR. Finally the sniper requires no leading unless you are at extreme ranges probably only applicable on Sandtrap and the BR requires leading at medium range. So if the BR had a tighter spread / no spread or was single shot it would not over power the sniper. If the BR was single shot it would actually take significantly more skill to get headshots with. Even in halo 1 where you have a 3 shot pistol with a decent range the sniper is still a power weapon and more suited to long range.

When using the Sniper I don't even bother with the 10x Zoom, the majority of players I've met and asked about it have also stated that they don't bother with the second scope either. The Scope isn't absolutely neccessary either. I can scope across and see someone from one side of Standoff to the other just fine with a BR. Aiming that isn't hard, so if there was no kickback & spread on the BR, I think I could constantly four shot across easily. Combine that with three team mates and you can kill someone instantly with just a single shot each. It changes Standoff into a bigger Guardian and thus distorts the balance of weapons.

  • 01.13.2009 6:46 AM PDT

Posted by: Air Sparrow

Who's B.B?


Beserker Barage; he likes to argue about intended ranges and the halo 2 BR a bit like you do.

I never really felt it as a power weapon, especially on large maps such as Coagulation. As soon as a Sniper set up on the cliffside they were immediately disposed of by BR fire. This should never happen. The Sniper should be dominating the BR at that range but yet it didn't. The only range it dominated at besides point blank was to the distance where you couldn't even see your opponent. That was where the scope actually came in handy.
I disagree however I consider 4v4 the essence of halo and if you look at halo 2 games on mid size maps you will see that the sniper is definitely a power weapon.


When firing at the distance of one side of Standoff to the other, kickback has a substantial effect. Check the file on my fileshare named BR Test 1 for a demonstration. To be quite honest it wouldn't be a very good game if every player you came across just rammed the trigger and always got the win, the kickback is in place to limit the range and reward players with kills when their shots are well-timed and rythmic, which takes far more skill than trigger-mashing. First I rarely even contemplate using the BR at such a range online as I don't think you could consistently land more than 1 bullet per shot at that range and then having to adjust for latency makes it almost pointless. You have to consider that at that range there is no reticle magnetism or bullet auto aim, try BR dueling with your teammates it is very difficult to hit them. So because of this killing people in 4 shots accross Standoff would be extremely rare and extremely skillful.

I agree, your team mates can't see through your eyes. Thats why we use callouts effectively to describe the position of the spotted enemies. Then our team mates can figure out a position to attack from. It's all teamwork in the upper levels of MLG so you might as well get used to it being a factor in Halo 3. Halo is a fairly fast paced game and it is simply not feasible to call out and expect to get sniper cover straight away the majority of the time as there is usually too much going on for your sniper to cover everybody and fight their own battles as well, nevermind when they have to change position to help you 90% of the time you will already be dead.

I never stated you cheated or that all Generals cheating or winning on-host. I simply said that 75% of Generals either cheat for their rank or play on-host. It's the reason I prefer SWAT over most gametypes competitively, less sponging and less latency. Less handicap = I'm able to carry my team when they fail and they carry me when I fail. I also live in the UK so I fight the American latency all the time just like you. But in any case, just because you have a 50 you automatically assume you are superior to other players of lower rank? Could it be possible that you just get host more than me? Could it be possible that your team usually goes positive and don't need carrying? Don't assume you are better than someone in every way just because you have General. Skill does not make knowledge, knowledge makes skill. I assure even against UK players I hardly ever get host, nevermind americans. Everyone that I got my 50s with I met playing halo, if you are good then you will attract good teammates. All this stemmed from a condescending comment made by you, I was simply pointing out that telling someone of a significantly higher rank how to play the game is "laughable".

When using the Sniper I don't even bother with the 10x Zoom, the majority of players I've met and asked about it have also stated that they don't bother with the second scope either. The Scope isn't absolutely neccessary either. I can scope across and see someone from one side of Standoff to the other just fine with a BR. Aiming that isn't hard, so if there was no kickback & spread on the BR, I think I could constantly four shot across easily. Combine that with three team mates and you can kill someone instantly with just a single shot each. It changes Standoff into a bigger Guardian and thus distorts the balance of weapons. I use 10x zoom, it makes the head a bigger target and enables magnetism at a greater range therefore making sniping easier. I also scope in at what is almost close range as it is more reliable than no-scoping and again makes the head an easier target to hit. It would be extremely difficult to 4 shot accross Standoff with a single shot BR if there was no auto-aim as leading for the last shot would be very difficult. Only the best of the best would be able to land these shots and I still think 4 & 5 shots would be a rarity at that range.

  • 01.13.2009 7:26 AM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

I disagree however I consider 4v4 the essence of halo and if you look at halo 2 games on mid size maps you will see that the sniper is definitely a power weapon.

I really wouldn't, Halo is meant to be played with a lot of people. When it's not laggy, BTB and Squad Battle are my favorite playlists because they are relaxed and fun. However it's really a matter of opinion. As for the Sniper, mid-sized maps are questionable as mid-sized maps tend to be some of the strangest shaped maps made. Some areas are wide open and some are very small. So in some areas no-scoping would be used whilst in others sneak sniping is used instead. I'm not saying I wouldn't class it as a power weapon but I am saying that the BR devalued it's usefulness a lot. I still think that to some degree on Halo 3. On Halo 1 the Sniper was rediculously powerful though, the only thing that could match it in range was the Pistol.

First I rarely even contemplate using the BR at such a range online as I don't think you could consistently land more than 1 bullet per shot at that range and then having to adjust for latency makes it almost pointless. You have to consider that at that range there is no reticle magnetism or bullet auto aim, try BR dueling with your teammates it is very difficult to hit them. So because of this killing people in 4 shots accross Standoff would be extremely rare and extremely skillful.

If someone is running across Standoff, can you get four sniper shots on them only in the first scope? I can easily. The BR is even more rapid than that, albeit a shorter scope I still believe that with no kickback and no spread I could easily four shot that. I think most people could.

Halo is a fairly fast paced game and it is simply not feasible to call out and expect to get sniper cover straight away the majority of the time as there is usually too much going on for your sniper to cover everybody and fight their own battles as well, nevermind when they have to change position to help you 90% of the time you will already be dead.

The team I usually play in expects the Sniper to deal with long range threats while we deal with close range ones, mid range is more of a 50/50 effort. In any case, in a team everyone must cover everyone elses backs, it's the reason FB held the MLG team title for so long. If you aren't in range to be covered or get to cover then you are playing over offensively and deserve to be killed.

I assure even against UK players I hardly ever get host, nevermind americans. Everyone that I got my 50s with I met playing halo, if you are good then you will attract good teammates. All this stemmed from a condescending comment made by you, I was simply pointing out that telling someone of a significantly higher rank how to play the game is "laughable".

Nope, I believed you made the first condescending comment:

Posted by: Prodigy117
I find it amusing that you attempt to patronize me even though I am the one with a 50.


I never even noticed that you were a 50 before that. Besides, a few months ago no one believed in BR kickback, the majority of the 50s posting in my thread thought I was an idiot suggesting kickback decreases accuracy and that you needed to 'time your shots.' I simply assumed you were similar to them after this first comment. My apologies for jumping to conclusions too quickly.

I use 10x zoom, it makes the head a bigger target and enables magnetism at a greater range therefore making sniping easier. I also scope in at what is almost close range as it is more reliable than no-scoping and again makes the head an easier target to hit. It would be extremely difficult to 4 shot accross Standoff with a single shot BR if there was no auto-aim as leading for the last shot would be very difficult. Only the best of the best would be able to land these shots and I still think 4 & 5 shots would be a rarity at that range.

I suppose the 10x zoom is useful for precision sniping, but I just don't find it useful for taking out moving targets.

As for the no spread, no kickback BR, I think pretty much anyone could do it. I play long range BR support all the time on Standoff (and my team mates love me for it :)) and I can go back in the theatre and see the first bullet hit every time, reguardless of the distance. The other two generally skim the opponent or miss completely due to the kickback and spread, but if we were to remove these factors then all bullets should follow the same path correct? Then if the first bullet hits, the second and third ones will connect too. The headshot is no harder than the bodyshot really so doing that is easy too. Hence the reason we have spread, otherwise the Sniper would be eliminated with team BRing.

[Edited on 01.13.2009 7:59 AM PST]

  • 01.13.2009 7:58 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Prodigy117
Posted by: Air Sparrow

Who's B.B?


Be[r]serker Barage; he likes to argue about intended ranges and the halo 2 BR a bit like you do.


That would be me. And the fact that people are still arguing in this thread is very saddening to me. Bungie isn't changing the BR. Whether or not you think they should is pretty much pointless. They aren't changing it for this game and I very much doubt they'd change it back to previous iterations for their next game (assuming it's a FPS). So talking about why that is a bad decision is pretty much an effort in futility. They know your opinion. THEY DON'T CARE.

Moving on. Saying that the H3 BR doesn't operate correctly in it's "intended range" is pointless. For the people that aren't Bungie designers, "intended range" is subjective. To them it's not. When they said that it's working properly in it's intended range than it is. Whether or not you agree that the intended range is long enough for you is your opinion and pretty much worthless. Disagree all you want, neither they or I care.

Talking about whether or not you want more options in custom games is really the only legitimate thing left to talk about. I, personally, wish you could make the Carbine the starting weapon on all maps and make it so it has no bullet spread in customs. I just don't think that it should be that way in MM at least how the Carbine is currently. If the Carbine ROF was like the M6G and it's clip size was like the M6G, I think it would be the ideal weapon. But then again, that's just my personal opinion, and I also realize the fact that it will NEVER happen.

So while you all might want to rail on for another 100 pages this discussion ended a long time ago. I should have left when TehAttack did because he was about the only person capable of having a decent conversation.

~B.B.

  • 01.13.2009 8:57 AM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

That would be me. And the fact that people are still arguing in this thread is very saddening to me. Bungie isn't changing the BR. Whether or not you think they should is pretty much pointless. They aren't changing it for this game and I very much doubt they'd change it back to previous iterations for their next game (assuming it's a FPS). So talking about why that is a bad decision is pretty much an effort in futility. They know your opinion. THEY DON'T CARE.

I know. I just find it interesting discussing this. Plus I am on the Pro-BR side so I hope that wasn't directed at me. :)

Moving on. Saying that the H3 BR doesn't operate correctly in it's "intended range" is pointless. For the people that aren't Bungie designers, "intended range" is subjective. To them it's not. When they said that it's working properly in it's intended range than it is. Whether or not you agree that the intended range is long enough for you is your opinion and pretty much worthless. Disagree all you want, neither they or I care.

I'll disagree up to the point of personal opinion, but it's obvious you don't care anyway, if you did then you'd post saying so right?

Talking about whether or not you want more options in custom games is really the only legitimate thing left to talk about. I, personally, wish you could make the Carbine the starting weapon on all maps and make it so it has no bullet spread in customs. I just don't think that it should be that way in MM at least how the Carbine is currently. If the Carbine ROF was like the M6G and it's clip size was like the M6G, I think it would be the ideal weapon. But then again, that's just my personal opinion, and I also realize the fact that it will NEVER happen.

I don't know. As long as there are fans of the series there are probably critics to every aspect. Luckily you are one critic that sees reality rather than trying to prove a point here.

So while you all might want to rail on for another 100 pages this discussion ended a long time ago. I should have left when TehAttack did because he was about the only person capable of having a decent conversation.

So you are voiding my opinion? Well it is just an opinion but it is still an intelligent answer, plus I'm drawing lines between my opinions and the facts. I'm just killing today because I'm too tired to do any due coursework and feel like taking a break from studying. You probably will see me on the forums enough but prefer just to post comments here. :)

  • 01.13.2009 9:09 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

That post wasn't addressed to you Sparrow. Well, other than answering who I am.

It's an interesting topic which is why I've read all 119 (I think we're that far now) pages of this thread. Which is why I've participated in a good majority of those pages. However, it seems to me that the discussion side of the issue has ended and the bickering side has continued. I'm pretty sure that both sides of the argument has been adequately stated and restated.

If you or anyone else wants to continue that argument, by all means have at it, but the perception that it makes a difference is an incorrect one.

Your feelings about this issue is just like either politics or religion, in so much that I very much doubt that someone posting on an internet forum should convince you to change your mind. If you would happen to be so easily swayed, I doubt you had much consideration on the issue before-hand.

Which if you go back and read the discussion between myself, TehAttack, and a few others you'll see that it basically boiled down to personal preference. Which is what it always has been. However, trying to make a convincing argument based solely on your personal preference is always going to be a problem. Your argument is only as convincing as whether or not the person agrees with your preference. And so here we are 119 pages later.

I'm not devaluating your opinion. I'm just being adamantly clear that the only thing this thread can ever be is one's opinion. You can't prove that the BR needs fixed. You can't prove otherwise either. You can't prove that the H3 BR is flawed design and you can't prove otherwise. I can make arguments that the M6D is both the best and worst weapon in the Halo universe. But at the end of the day it means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Halo is Bungie's game (now more specifically Microsoft's) and regardless of your, mine, or anyone else who's posted so far their opinions trump ours.

~B.B.

[Edited on 01.13.2009 10:44 AM PST]

  • 01.13.2009 10:37 AM PDT

Posted by: Air Sparrow
When firing at the distance of one side of Standoff to the other, kickback has a substantial effect. Check the file on my fileshare named BR Test 1 for a demonstration. To be quite honest it wouldn't be a very good game if every player you came across just rammed the trigger and always got the win, the kickback is in place to limit the range and reward players with kills when their shots are well-timed and rythmic, which takes far more skill than trigger-mashing.
I watched your demonstration a while ago. Your going to need to test each method more then once if you actually want to cite the result. It seems to me that the varied results between the two methods could very likely have more to do with the randomness of the spread then with differences in rate of fire.

  • 01.13.2009 10:43 AM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
That post wasn't addressed to you Sparrow. Well, other than answering who I am.

It's an interesting topic which is why I've read all 119 (I think we're that far now) pages of this thread. Which is why I've participated in a good majority of those pages. However, it seems to me that the discussion side of the issue has ended and the bickering side has continued. I'm pretty sure that both sides of the argument has been adequately stated and restated.

If you or anyone else wants to continue that argument, by all means have at it, but the perception that it makes a difference is an incorrect one.

Your feelings about this issue is just like either politics or religion, in so much that I very much doubt that someone posting on an internet forum should convince you to change your mind. If you would happen to be so easily swayed, I doubt you had much consideration on the issue before-hand.

Which if you go back and read the discussion between myself, TehAttack, and a few others you'll see that it basically boiled down to personal preference. Which is what it always has been. However, trying to make a convincing argument based solely on your personal preference is always going to be a problem. Your argument is only as convincing as whether or not the person agrees with your preference. And so here we are 119 pages later.

I'm not devaluating your opinion. I'm just being adamantly clear that the only thing this thread can ever be is one's opinion. You can't prove that the BR needs fixed. You can't prove otherwise either. You can't prove that the H3 BR is flawed design and you can't prove otherwise. I can make arguments that the M6D is both the best and worst weapon in the Halo universe. But at the end of the day it means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Halo is Bungie's game (now more specifically Microsoft's) and regardless of your, mine, or anyone else who's posted so far their opinions trump ours.

~B.B.


Well said, sorry about taking your post wrongly. Just seems I state something and I get four people on me at once. I'm sort of used to everything being addressed to me at the moment. :)

@Nokterne: That might be true but in all honesty I can't be bothered to go back and retest it. Restest it if you want but B.B. has convinced me that the discussion really is meaningless.

  • 01.13.2009 12:54 PM PDT

Posted by: Air Sparrow
Restest it if you want but B.B. has convinced me that the discussion really is meaningless.


This discussion is far from meaningless. Sure, fundamentally it is an argument about a meaningless video game weapon, but it also is an argument between two different social views.

One group expects everything to be easy; they don't think they should have to work to be rewarded, and they think everyone should be rewarded equally, regardless of how much time each individual puts into something. The other group expects to make their own fortune, to not be held back by artificial means so that everyone can feel good about themselves. They expect to be rewarded relative to how much time and effort they put into something. They don't feel they should be punished for being good so that others can be rewarded for being bad at something.

Sure, on the surface its a meaningless discussion about how a game should be balanced, but its an interesting social study as well. I hate to sound melodramatic but, at the core, this is really a discussion about societies shift towards "easy mode."

[Edited on 01.13.2009 1:15 PM PST]

  • 01.13.2009 1:15 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

It's fine Sparrow, and I know how you feel. This is a hotly debated issue for a lot of people. However, I'd imagine for the majority of people it is a non-issue. They just want to play a few games and move on. Which is why anything that comes on B.net isn't really indicative of how the rest of the Halo 3 population sees it. If you're willing to post about something on B.net, you're pretty much biased one way or the other.

Now, I don't want to scare you away from this thread if you want to have a discussion. I hope you can. But for me it's really hit that point where pretty much everything has been said and it's quite obvious where Bungie stands on the issue. If you want to talk about your opinion of what's better, then have at it. However, arguing over who's opinion is more valid at this point in the game is like arguing about a referee's call in last year's SuperBowl. Or who shot first, Greedo or Han. It's a fun topic to discuss but then again it doesn't make much difference.

Just realize that the BR spread issue is like Halo's equivalent of Stem Cell Research or euthanasia. It's rarely discussed in a civil manner.

~B.B.

*edit* you're full of crap BigShow. The BR debate as social commentary. Christ that's ridiculous.

[Edited on 01.13.2009 1:19 PM PST]

  • 01.13.2009 1:17 PM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
*edit* you're full of crap BigShow. The BR debate as social commentary. Christ that's ridiculous.


Like I said, its a bit melodramatic, but I see the two as being closely linked, closer than you would probably think. There is a definate shift towards lack of personal responsibility in the world; its blatantly evident. People expect to be rewarded for doing practically nothing. Theres also been a shift in Halo to making the game easier for everyone and being rewarded equally regardless of effort. I see the two views as being related.

  • 01.13.2009 1:45 PM PDT

Multiplayer Gameplay
Halo:CE------------------Reach--------Halo2-----------------H alo3
Campaign Experience
Reach----Halo:CE-----------------ODST-----Halo2---------Halo3

Glad that Halo 3 garbage is dead, thanks to Reach.
Unfreakenbelievable!!

I was wondering when B.B. was gonna jump in and stop this nonsense. I could have easily joined in with this conversation, but I held back and figured Sparrow could only handle 2 guys at once.

Oh hell, I'll chime in with one thing...Sparrow, your idea of the Sniper being useless or whatever is a load of horse doodoo. Plus, you countered your own arguement by saying the Sniper in Halo 1 was very effective as a Power Weapon. Since you seem to not like the functionality of the Halo 2 BR...it was considered overpowered because it was a burst-fire weapon that deals headshots which will never work for Halo, and it had great magnetism which allowed you to hit your target pretty easily from long distance. Don't feel the need to respond. I just didn't think you support your idea very well with bringing in other Power Weapons as losing effectiveness.

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
If the Carbine ROF was like the M6G and it's clip size was like the M6G, I think it would be the ideal weapon. But then again, that's just my personal opinion, and I also realize the fact that it will NEVER happen.
~B.B.
I agree. Or, the M6G could just have an increase of range, which is pretty much what you are saying. I don't think increasing the range of a weapon that is underused and underappreciated as being out of the question. Although, I personally would feel that all the people who live by the AR would start complaining that it is too overpowered. Which I would then laugh and continue to dominate them, much like I already do now with the M6G. It is quite weird that nobody, that I have seen, has proposed a patch for the M6G.

I have never like the BR as a burst-fire weapon and never will. Halo has always been about the Grenade+whatever combo and having a spray weapon with a headshot bonus kind of takes some of the fun out of it.

  • 01.13.2009 2:51 PM PDT

The BR is just like every other weapon in the game, Learn how to use the weapon effectively and it won't fail you.

Having a weapon with incredible range is just how these things work, I have tested the range of every gun availible to Sandtrap and the only weapons that can hit a target at the farthest possible distance are the rockets and sniper. The BR has weaknesses that perfectly counter-balance it out.

[Edited on 01.13.2009 5:10 PM PST]

  • 01.13.2009 5:06 PM PDT

Ah, my friend. I'm afraid I have to disagree. Of course, my only complaint is how mismatched the Battle Rifle is against the Assault Rifle. Many a time, I have rounded a corner to be hailed by two bullets and a prompt punch to the head. Whereas, the Battle Rifle takes six bullets before melees are fatal unless they are assassinations.

  • 01.13.2009 5:20 PM PDT

i don't know why people complain yes it is sooo terible if you get shot by a br and you don't know where it comes from. but its is part of the game and it is a great wep it takes skill unlike asault rifle. i usaly do a 5 shot kill sometimes 4 i love it <3

  • 01.14.2009 5:17 AM PDT

"Bungie controls everything. You have no rights. Play nice."

(")(") This is Bubbel.
(°+°)
[^]-[^]

It is never to late. You always can win.

The BR is THE weapon of halo 3. You only can be good when you are good with the BR.
I like the BR how it is. Games like Team Swat only can survive with the batttle rifle.
I like the BR. And all the "BR noobs" ^^

  • 01.14.2009 7:54 AM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

Posted by: TheBigShow
This discussion is far from meaningless. Sure, fundamentally it is an argument about a meaningless video game weapon, but it also is an argument between two different social views.


I think that you are really looking far too far into this. It's over a weapon, not social standards.

Posted by: Jiggly Luv
Oh hell, I'll chime in with one thing...Sparrow, your idea of the Sniper being useless or whatever is a load of horse doodoo. Plus, you countered your own arguement by saying the Sniper in Halo 1 was very effective as a Power Weapon. Since you seem to not like the functionality of the Halo 2 BR...it was considered overpowered because it was a burst-fire weapon that deals headshots which will never work for Halo, and it had great magnetism which allowed you to hit your target pretty easily from long distance. Don't feel the need to respond. I just didn't think you support your idea very well with bringing in other Power Weapons as losing effectiveness.


I guess you still don't understand what I was trying to say. I was talking about the Snipers devaluation of the BR on large scale maps. I'll give a quick evaluation of maps:

Small Maps (e.g Lockout): The Sniper is a powerful no-scoping tool used at point blank range before the BR has a chance of firing. The close range combined with obstructing the view of other enemies (due to the size of the map) means that the Sniper can't be beaten.

Large Maps (e.g Coagulation): The Sniper can't perfom well due to the range of the BR being able to match it's own, with team BRing, the Sniper will end up failing and thus is reduced to uselessness.

Now if you drop the auto-aim and bullet magnetism of the Sniper and reduce the range of the BR on Halo 3.

Small Maps (e.g Blackout): The Sniper is still powerful when used as a no-scoping tool but due to the drop of the auto-aim and bullet magnetism values it is no longer as easy to no-scope as before. The BR can overpower it due to the Sniper's increased chance of missed shots.

Large Maps (e.g Standoff): The Sniper has been risen back up to it's former glory, due to the decreased effective range of the BR the Sniper is now able to take enemies from a distance without fear of Sniper range four-shotting. The BR must now be used at a closer range to break through the Sniper's range advantage and thus balance is restored.

Now before you ask about mid-sized maps, this can be variable due to the abnormality of map designs. Take the pit as a good example. It is a large map with some very open areas (where the Sniper would have an advantage) but has been broken into two halves with some very small areas in the middle and around the edge of the map (where the BR would be superior). So as a result it is a mixed situation, it completely depends on the positions of the opposing players on the maps.

I hope that explains what I meant better. I didn't mean it simply made the Sniper useless, I meant that it devalued it in such situations where is should be a very dominant aspect on the map, and as a result forced it to the position of a no-scoping tool. :)

Posted by: GHSpartan1212
Of course, my only complaint is how mismatched the Battle Rifle is against the Assault Rifle. Many a time, I have rounded a corner to be hailed by two bullets and a prompt punch to the head. Whereas, the Battle Rifle takes six bullets before melees are fatal unless they are assassinations.


Likely because at such a close range the AR is superior to the BR. The BR is a mid-range weapon but can also triple as a long-range support weapon or close-range initiative weapon. When rounding a corner in such a small area, use your AR instead. :)

[Edited on 01.14.2009 10:48 AM PST]

  • 01.14.2009 10:40 AM PDT

Multiplayer Gameplay
Halo:CE------------------Reach--------Halo2-----------------H alo3
Campaign Experience
Reach----Halo:CE-----------------ODST-----Halo2---------Halo3

Glad that Halo 3 garbage is dead, thanks to Reach.
Unfreakenbelievable!!

Air Sparrow, you pretty much just repeated what you were saying before. I was also only exaggerating when I said you think the Sniper would become useless.

Coagulation usually resulted in me hiding in a base or cave due do the excess of unbalanced elements in Halo 2, like overpowered Vehicles and the ability to control weapons for the remainder of the game. But, either way, the Sniper was still quite the Power Weapon. If that wasn't the case, then I probably wouldn't had used it as frequently as I did.

Also, Standoff doesn't have a Sniper, for reasons I and others have been trying to say: the Sniper is overpowered and unbalanced, right now, due to AR starts and the effectiveness of the BR.

The Sniper has been risen back up to it's former glory, due to the decreased effective range of the BR the Sniper is now able to take enemies from a distance without fear of Sniper range four-shotting.It's as if you never played Halo:CE, where the Sniper was balanced with M6D starts and was quite fun to use. Oh, and the M6D was much more of a threat to a Sniper than a Halo 2 BR was to a Sniper. Anyhoo, how is having no fear of getting killed from long range while trying to Sniper a good thing? It's almost as if you support AR-only starts on large maps, since you seem to want Power Weapons to be overpowered like they are, by your oppinions, supposed to be.

For example, just the other day I played a Territories game on Valhalla. I had the easiest time just sitting around Sniping. Most of the players were running around with ARs, since they hardly ever picked up another weapon, which btw supports BR starts. But, a few times someone tried to fight me with a BR. I was sitting out in the open with absolutely no fear, whatsoever, and started to get pinged while zoomed in on a guy. Instead of running to get cover, I just waited it out and kept trying to Snipe him. I knew he couldn't kill me and so did he. In fact, he stopped firing at me with no confidence he could do any damage to me, and guess what happened to him? He got sniped. To me, that just isn't right.

Sniping is about being unseen. If someone knows where you are, then you should not be given the satisfaction of knowing that they can't kill you.

If you are able to use up all the ammo in a Power Weapon, then it is mostly due to the fact that it is overpowered.

My whole point was that you are supporting you thoughts with the idea of Power Weapons being less effective. That just does not help your argument. It is nonsense and in some cases goes against your argument, especially since you seem to believe that Power Weapons in Halo 2 were less effective than they were in Halo 1, which is absolutely false.

  • 01.14.2009 12:14 PM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

Air Sparrow, you pretty much just repeated what you were saying before. I was also only exaggerating when I said you think the Sniper would become useless.

Yes I did, I simplified what I said because you asked me to. By saying I countered my own argument that meant I had to repeat what I said in order for you to get the picture. Also, if you were only exagerating then why were you exagerating? What is the point of exagerating to get me to repeat myself, why not just go back and read my earlier posts?

Coagulation usually resulted in me hiding in a base or cave due do the excess of unbalanced elements in Halo 2, like overpowered Vehicles and the ability to control weapons for the remainder of the game. But, either way, the Sniper was still quite the Power Weapon. If that wasn't the case, then I probably wouldn't had used it as frequently as I did.

If you really used the Sniper on Halo 2 like you can on Halo 3 then you weremaking a very stupid move. You would almost always get team BRed if you weren't being sneaky about it, and as I can tell, the majority of the Halo 3 population doesn't like sneakyness hence the reason everyone is so biased about HLG. Bungie have made the Sniper back into the non-sneaky weapon by reducing the BR's effective range.

Also, Standoff doesn't have a Sniper, for reasons I and others have been trying to say: the Sniper is overpowered and unbalanced, right now, due to AR starts and the effectiveness of the BR.

I'd say it's the right level of power. If I and my team let a Sniper get so much control of the map that they are pinning us down in our base then we deserve to lose. In MLG if you let the other team get too much control of the map then you get pinned down, why should it be any different with a better suited weapon in Matchmaking?

It's as if you never played Halo:CE, where the Sniper was balanced with M6D starts and was quite fun to use. Oh, and the M6D was much more of a threat to a Sniper than a Halo 2 BR was to a Sniper. Anyhoo, how is having no fear of getting killed from long range while trying to Sniper a good thing? It's almost as if you support AR-only starts on large maps, since you seem to want Power Weapons to be overpowered like they are, by your oppinions, supposed to be.

But the M6D should not have had that sort of power behind it. It was just a miniature Sniper rifle that completely devalued the AR's effectiveness, Bungie realised this and rectified it in Halo 2, however they needed a weapon with similar properties to replace it, due to it being many fan's favorite weapon, so the BR was introduced. Unfortunately, Bungie also realised that with the BR in place the AR would likely be considered obsolete, so they removed it. After seeing the general performance of the BR in Halo 2 vs the Sniper rifle they dropped the effective range to give the Sniper more power on the battlefield and raise it's value up to the point that it should be. The AR was brought back with some changes due to the larger weapon sandbox and inclusion of equipment and so now we have a fairly balanced Halo 3. :)

For example, just the other day I played a Territories game on Valhalla. I had the easiest time just sitting around Sniping. Most of the players were running around with ARs, since they hardly ever picked up another weapon, which btw supports BR starts. But, a few times someone tried to fight me with a BR. I was sitting out in the open with absolutely no fear, whatsoever, and started to get pinged while zoomed in on a guy. Instead of running to get cover, I just waited it out and kept trying to Snipe him. I knew he couldn't kill me and so did he. In fact, he stopped firing at me with no confidence he could do any damage to me, and guess what happened to him? He got sniped. To me, that just isn't right.

If he was all the way over at one base and you were in the middle, I'm not suprised. It's likely he knew that the BR was just too ineffective at that range. I suspect that he was either waiting for the nearby Sniper to respawn or waiting on a team mate to attack you from another angle, however he was obviously careless and as a result got sniped. To me, it was his stupidity that killed him, not a 'broken BR'.

Sniping is about being unseen. If someone knows where you are, then you should not be given the satisfaction of knowing that they can't kill you.

However Sniping is also about having a range advantage on the opponent. If you and them can match ranges, what is the point of using a Sniper? It's harder to get a headshot no-scope after being pinged out than to four shot across the map if the BR had no spread or kickback. It's the reason you shouldn't use a Sniper against a BR at mid-range and not at close range if you aren't going to try a no scope.

If you are able to use up all the ammo in a Power Weapon, then it is mostly due to the fact that it is overpowered.

Or that you are missing shots. In any case I use up all my ammo giving support with a BR all the time, so I suppose that would make the BR a power weapon? I also frequently use up Mauler ammo too and Brute shot ammo. Should we start a new list called Psuedo-Power Weapons?

My whole point was that you are supporting you thoughts with the idea of Power Weapons being less effective. That just does not help your argument. It is nonsense and in some cases goes against your argument, especially since you seem to believe that Power Weapons in Halo 2 were less effective than they were in Halo 1, which is absolutely false.

I think it's quite effective material to my argument. BR = Overpowers Sniper = Bungie Fixes the balance in Halo 3. I think it makes a lot of sense and doesn't go against my argument in any case, also I never said that H2 Power Weapons were less effective than in H1, where you got that idea from I don't know.

Well I hope that sums up my argument and you understand me now. I'm kind of getting bored of this now. :)

  • 01.14.2009 3:03 PM PDT

Multiplayer Gameplay
Halo:CE------------------Reach--------Halo2-----------------H alo3
Campaign Experience
Reach----Halo:CE-----------------ODST-----Halo2---------Halo3

Glad that Halo 3 garbage is dead, thanks to Reach.
Unfreakenbelievable!!

Posted by: Air SparrowWell, obviously you feel that overly dominant Power Weapons = "fairly" balanced gameplay, and I feel that overly dominant Power Weapons ruin balance. This is why I enjoyed Halo 1 with M6D starts so much, because Power Weapons weren't a frequent annoyance as they are in Halo 2 and Halo 3. So, let's just leave it at that.

If he was all the way over at one base and you were in the middle, I'm not suprised. It's likely he knew that the BR was just too ineffective at that range. I suspect that he was either waiting for the nearby Sniper to respawn or waiting on a team mate to attack you from another angle, however he was obviously careless and as a result got sniped. To me, it was his stupidity that killed him, not a 'broken BR'. Let me clarify. He was next to the Pelican trying to grab a territory and I was just passed the river where the mancannon takes you. If I had been in his shoes, I would've probably kept shooting, trying to guess where to lead my shots so my random chances of hitting him are increased. Then as soon as I have to reload and he is not dead yet, I would probably be hating on Bungie, much like I did to start the match when I found out it was AR-only starts.

also I never said that H2 Power Weapons were less effective than in H1, where you got that idea from I don't know. On Halo 1 the Sniper was rediculously powerful though, the only thing that could match it in range was the Pistol.Maybe you worded it poorly or it was just a bad assumption on my part.

  • 01.14.2009 4:40 PM PDT
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Posted by: W00dW0rm
haha some of the comments in this thread are hillarious. The problem is like so many people have said and im adding to is the fact people got used to the Halo 2 BR system and now cant use the BR in Halo 3 because the system for it is different. .

That is a good valid point and thought that I've been thinking about in the past. The problem is that we expect it to be the same weapon despite that it isnt. This wouldnt even have been an issue if they had changed the looks of the BR in Halo 3 or simply called it something els.

If the needler had played a bigger role in Halo 2 we would have probably had the same discussion about that weapon despite that that it's pretty much tweaked in the opposite direction of the Halo 3 BR.

  • 01.14.2009 4:49 PM PDT

Posted by: Batzter
That is a good valid point and thought that I've been thinking about in the past. The problem is that we expect it to be the same weapon despite that it isnt. This wouldnt even have been an issue if they had changed the looks of the BR in Halo 3 or simply called it something els.
I don't think people would have been fooled. If the BRs look and name been changed, people would simply be asking why the BR wasn't included, and discussing how this new weapon was inferior.

If the needler had played a bigger role in Halo 2 we would have probably had the same discussion about that weapon despite that that it's pretty much tweaked in the opposite direction of the Halo 3 BR. The needler has never played a large role in multiplayer though, and has been a gimmick weapon ported over from the campaign since Halo CE. It hasn't been useful until now, and even now it is pretty easy to counter if you see the guy shooting you and have enough space to strafe left or right.

In order for any discussion about the changing of the needler to be comparable to the current discussion of the BR, the needler would have first needed to be an important weapon in the game that also required precision aim to use it effectively.

  • 01.14.2009 9:13 PM PDT
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Posted by: Nokterne
Posted by: Batzter
That is a good valid point and thought that I've been thinking about in the past. The problem is that we expect it to be the same weapon despite that it isnt. This wouldnt even have been an issue if they had changed the looks of the BR in Halo 3 or simply called it something els.
I don't think people would have been fooled. If the BRs look and name been changed, people would simply be asking why the BR wasn't included, and discussing how this new weapon was inferior.

If the needler had played a bigger role in Halo 2 we would have probably had the same discussion about that weapon despite that that it's pretty much tweaked in the opposite direction of the Halo 3 BR. The needler has never played a large role in multiplayer though, and has been a gimmick weapon ported over from the campaign since Halo CE. It hasn't been useful until now, and even now it is pretty easy to counter if you see the guy shooting you and have enough space to strafe left or right.

In order for any discussion about the changing of the needler to be comparable to the current discussion of the BR, the needler would have first needed to be an important weapon in the game that also required precision aim to use it effectively.

That's pretty much why I wrote "if the needler had played a bigger role in Halo 2..."
The point is that it's the change we're complaining about and not so much the weapon in itself. They gave us a reference in Halo 2 so we got something that we can compare to. If it hadnt been for that we wouldnt have complained. The HCE AR seems to have been forgotten since that was further back. If that AR had been in Halo 2 we would probably have had a similar discussion to the BR discussion now regarding the AR.

  • 01.14.2009 11:59 PM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

Let me clarify. He was next to the Pelican trying to grab a territory and I was just passed the river where the mancannon takes you. If I had been in his shoes, I would've probably kept shooting, trying to guess where to lead my shots so my random chances of hitting him are increased. Then as soon as I have to reload and he is not dead yet, I would probably be hating on Bungie, much like I did to start the match when I found out it was AR-only starts.

Even from that distance it's just not possible to four shot. However, maybe moving up to and around the Pelican and taking hit and run shots might of been a better combat tactic? I don't know about that situation. Four shotting isn't impossible at that range but he should be able to get a six-shot easily if you were really standing out in the open the whole time. Be wary though, if you had stood there long enough, he might of just hid and called in team mates to attack you from top mid, then you would have been thoroughly screwed.

Maybe you worded it poorly or it was just a bad assumption on my part.

Yup, just a misunderstanding. :)

[Edited on 01.15.2009 7:51 AM PST]

  • 01.15.2009 7:47 AM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

Halo CE > Halo 3 > Halo 2

Fix the Halo 3 BR spread, plz.

You could argue that but I could argue that if the BR had no spread then it would become the ultimate weapon. The Sniper would become a close-range no-scoping tool only and many of the other weapons in the game would become useless.

Snipers are incredibly effective in all 3 Halo games. You seem to think that tightening the spread of the BR will increase it's range to that of a sniper rifle, when that is by no means the case. The BR still has factors that limit it's range, such as the size of the target is smaller because of a less powerful scope, smaller red reticle range and slower bullet speed. You also seem to forget that the sniper requires 1 headshot to kill over the BR's 4 headshots. Sure, the sniper is harder to use in BR games because people are shooting at you, that is clearly evident even in the current game, since the BR's first shot functions to take snipers out of scope, but a solid sniper can quick scope effectively, or just know when to pop out to take a simple shot. Not to mention, snipers can flank and take BR users off guard easily, out of the BR's range. The BR does not have the same firing attributes of the sniper, and thus will not overpower a sniper at long range as long as the sniper is any good.

  • 01.15.2009 5:58 PM PDT