Halo 3 Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: The Only BR Thread
  • Subject: The Only BR Thread

I am (was) Legend!

Bring Back Head to Head!!
Does it really matter how many people play it as long as you dont have to maintain servers?

Last post lol! If your BR is sick, just call me, the Dr. And I will fix you permanently!

I love the BR. Just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth on the Official BR thread lol.

[Edited on 05.10.2009 1:59 AM PDT]

  • 05.10.2009 1:58 AM PDT
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personally I feel that the BR is just fine. It's my favorite weapon. In the hands of a skilled player the BR is a one man killing machine. If you know how to set yourself up right and know what you can hit and can not and you know how to place grenades you are pretty much going to win every time.

  • 05.10.2009 2:30 AM PDT

-SilentSniper576

i think the br is fine just the way it is. I use it all the time as my primary and continue to do great with it.

  • 05.10.2009 6:51 AM PDT

-SilentSniper576

Posted by: Raminator47
personally I feel that the BR is just fine. It's my favorite weapon. In the hands of a skilled player the BR is a one man killing machine. If you know how to set yourself up right and know what you can hit and can not and you know how to place grenades you are pretty much going to win every time.


yeah, i feel the same way.

  • 05.10.2009 6:52 AM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

Posted by: Prodigy117
The problem with equipment is that it is cheap and requires little skill to use. Players may just be lucky and happen to have picked up equipment from a dead body, equipment makes the game less fair, less skilled and adds a further element of luck. Not to mention its just frustrating and not fun.


Cheap? Requires little skill to use? This is pure opinion. Words like 'Cheap' and 'No Skill' mean nothing. What matters is the team that wins, luck or not they won, luck is an element in skill too you know. In addition if they did pick it up off another player then the previous player is surely less skilled as he didn't use the equipment when he should of and was killed as a result. If you happen to pick it up and use it correctly then whom is more skilled? You or the player before you that failed to activate it?

Also check each map in matchmaking, equipment is layed out at an even distance from each team on most maps, it's just as fair as having Power Weapons on the maps.

You seem not to understand that halo is not a one-shot kill game (generally speaking obviously with the exception of sniper and rockets).

Yeah it's not. So just because it generally takes more than one shot to kill someone in Halo, it's all about aim, positioning and tactics? I fail to see the logic in that.

In Halo 3 it is definitely possible to outskill an opponent when they have the advantage, you do not necessarily have to outshoot them either you can utilise cover, grenades or unexpected tactics such as running into cover then jumping straight back out when still weak giving you the element of surprise and perhaps enough time to claw back the advantage etc etc. This is neither sight nor is it weapon/situation advantage it is 'Aim and Quick thinking' based if you like. Players are rewarded for making quick decisions and being creative and unpredictable in their movement and use of their surroundings. This is what makes halo such a great game.

However those sorts of movement tactics are useless against power weapons like Rockets and close range weapons like Maulers and Shotguns. But if you let the opponent get hold of powerful weapons then you must have done something wrong during the game anyways and thus you have been outskilled and killed.

Not really they have changed halo 3 so that it is more like halo 1, skill based. Why is it that the best players in halo 3 almost exclusively play MLG and thats not just pros. Most of the best players play MLG because it is more fair and skill based. Equipment is frustrating and cheap, vehicles are frustrating, cheap and ridiculously overpowered on certain maps, AR SMG, Needler, Shotgun, close combat weapons in abundance are cheap and unskilled. Taking these aspects out of the game does not take away from the experience at all. The BR could be a lot better i.e. single shot with no spread but at the moment it's the best option for balanced skill based gameplay.

Halo 1 had a Mac Cannon for a Pistol.

That aside, Halo 3 is not like Halo 1, if you want to play Halo 1, go play it, I believe there's still an MLG PC Tournament that gets held every few months for it. If you want to play Halo 3 however, play Halo 3.

Fairness is all about both teams being given even opportunity at the start of the game, if you mess that up it will be incredibly difficult to come back from that. If you mess up then and lose as a result, surely you have been outskilled? If you lose in Vehicle to Vehicle combat, surely you have been outskilled? Surely if you lose to equipment when you could have grabbed your own or had a team mate engage them with you, you have been outskilled?

"There is no such thing as a Lucky Shot." - Eiji Date

Skill is just a word, what matters are clean results.

The current settings in MLG are fairly well balanced, yes they are not perfectly balanced but they do give a good mix of utility weapons, power weapons and fair skill based gameplay.

I would agree completely except I think that the MLG maps are completely balanced. However the gameplay variations are limited a bit by the 'Force back into spawns' strategy every team uses. I still believe that MLG is 100% balanced otherwise.

Halo 1 for example is well balanced and has quite a few weapons to choose from, it is possible to have balance and variety at the same time. Having a variety of skilled weapons allows for players to outplay their opponent, for example no scoping or quick scoping with the sniper is powerful but takes skill so a player may be one shot down to a BR wielder but manage to drop the other players shields and finish their opponent with a well placed BR shot. This is not an auto win like so many situations are with regular settings especially when a player AR charges you within a certain range, strafing and jumping is of little use in this situation as the AR is so easy to aim as opposed to the more akward BR that requires some precision especially on the last shot.

Generally speaking Halo 1 was balanced too.

You simply don't understand my argument, it's not that Halo 1, 2 or 3/MLG settings are unbalanced, it's that they are different games with balanced gameplay. I can understand balancing weapons/grenades/equipment/vehicles/map geometry and spawns at an even distance from both teams but by removing 90% of the varied weapons on each map you detract from the gameplay experience, detract from the variations of matches that could be held and detract from the fun in general.

Move but don't Remove.

  • 05.10.2009 11:49 AM PDT

It is not never falling that makes us strong,
It is rising every time we fall.

- Ghandi

IF YOU SEND ME A GROUP INVITE I WILL BLOCK YOU

Posted by: Nokterne
A significant problem with Halo 3 is the overwhelming advantage that first shot gives you. In my view, the main source of this issue is the high frequency of short-ranged combat in the game, combined with the mechanics of the games primary weapons (AR and BR).

This problem has been present since launch, and has not fluctuated as you suggest above. Adding any form of acquirable weapon or item (like equipment) is NOT going to fix this problem, because the problem is rooted in the mechanics of the game. In fact, the way equipment currently works is a ridiculous overcompensation for the problem, if it's purpose is what you say it is.


First shot? You mean the advantage given to the first shot that a player might take in an exchange? Well that's been a problem in every Multiplayer game since the dawn of time and still continues to be a problem to this day, especially in 'one-shot-kill' games like COD where you don't get a chance to react. Halo 3 offers a solution but it only works if you prepared it ahead of time and actually bothered to grab equipment. Combined with the Shielding system I think it's a pretty straightforward and effective system to remove this issue, it's too bad MLG like the 'first-shot-wins' system otherwise I think it could be quite interesting.

You seem to think that I view ANY weapon advantage as a bad thing. This is not the case. Weapon advantage adds to the skill required in a game because it forces people to adapt to different situations. My issue is that Halo 3 took this too far. Weapon advantage is too important. The ultimate decider in an encounter should be skill, not the weapon you were holding. If two equally skilled players begin an encounter, the one holding the better weapon should win. If a bad player holding a good weapon encounters a skilled player holding a starting weapon, the skilled player should win. Skill should be the ultimate decider.

Aim and Reflexes can only go so far, once both players have developed a perfect aim and can readjust to any situation due to experience then it all comes down to the 'first-shot-wins' system. That is the ultimate form of this 'skill' you think of. Plus, why would one player just let the other player get a better weapon? Their strategy, tactics and teamwork must be really bad if they do that and the other player with the better weapon is clearly the more skilled player. If your suggestion 'skill' should be the ultimate decider then it's back to basic 'First-shot-wins' gameplay.

You are taking an extremely oversimplified view on FPS games in general. Making a good FPS is about adjusting and balancing elements to fit a certain style of gameplay. You certainly cannot divide them into one of two categories.

Yes I can, I just did. Please attempt to rip it apart but I think you'll find it quite impossible.

I don't think you thought through this section of your post very well before you posted it.


That's your opinion. Good luck with that. :)

Please explain to me how equipment and vehicles add skill to the game. Seriously. I want to hear your reasoning.

Pay particular regard to "quick-thinking." I think we can all agree that generally, a faster game takes more skill. Convince me that equipment and vehicles don't slow down the game.

I'd also like to know how you would change the default game to make it more skillful. Or do you just consider it to be perfect out of the box?


Equipment and Vehicles don't slow down the game? I think you've mixed up Ability with Skill here. You see, Ability is just a single part of skill, it involves your comfort with the controls, advanced movement and quick thinking. Skill is Ability, Knowledge and Mindset. You won't be a top ranked player without all three, it doesn't matter about how quick your reflexes are or how good your aim is, if you know nothing about the map, weapons or game in general then you won't be able to execute your moves properly. This 'Quick-Thinking' you are talking about is a sub element that crosses the borderline between Ability and Mindset, maybe I'll type out a short essay on skill sometime and post it on B.net.

And a faster game takes more skill? Stick to AC4/ACFA, you're usually partially-invisible because of the speed you are moving at. Speed doesn't equal skill. Otherwise the only skillful game would be AC4/ACFA.

And how would I change the game? I'd remove the BR.

I joke. I'd likely sort out some of the messed up spawning you get on some of the maps such as High Ground, Foundry and Narrows. Other than that I think the game is fine (minus the lag issues of course).

The reason I post on these boards is because I think Halo 3 could be MORE fun. Every change I would make to this game is centred around fun, not MLG or competition in general.

I can't argue with that, you've at least got your heart set in the right place.

Listen to any of the Gamers Corner podcasts where a pro is interviewed. There is a good post about the BR spread on the front page as well.

Nice work. You've scored a second point. :)

The meaning of balance is a bit different in the context of a game. It's not synonymous with equality.

My argument still stands. MLG's idea of Balance is Team Snipers.

So going by your logic, why are people who play the MLG settings often also very good at default settings Halo? You don't think it has anything to do with MLG boiling the game down to its most important core elements?

Well I did say Teamwork and BR skills. BR skills improves aim in general. However, people who play MLG will use the same tactics over and over again in default settings, they'll use equipment rarely or not at all and will prefer to be on foot rather than in a vehicle, in addition they'll drop nearly every weapon on a map for the BR, Mauler, Sniper or Rockets. It's a waste of strategies and tactics when most other players would use anything that can give them an advantage.

  • 05.10.2009 12:02 PM PDT

Posted by: Air Sparrow
First shot? You mean the advantage given to the first shot that a player might take in an exchange? Well that's been a problem in every Multiplayer game since the dawn of time and still continues to be a problem to this day, especially in 'one-shot-kill' games like COD where you don't get a chance to react. Halo 3 offers a solution but it only works if you prepared it ahead of time and actually bothered to grab equipment. Combined with the Shielding system I think it's a pretty straightforward and effective system to remove this issue, it's too bad MLG like the 'first-shot-wins' system otherwise I think it could be quite interesting.

You've just restated your argument here, so I will restate my response. Equipment doesn't address the issue effectively. It's purpose was never what you say it is, and if it were, it would be quite possibly the poorest attempt to address a problem in any game ever.

If I were to re-make Halo 3's equipment with the purpose of reducing first shot advantage (because eliminating first-shot advantage would be retarded), I would make it more common but less powerful.

On the topic of first shot advantage. Yes, first shot advantage will always be present. A player that can position himself to gain first shot deserves that advantage. However, first shot should not be the ultimate decider in an encounter. That's why I loved the M6D. If I had better aim then someone, I could spin around after they got first shot and quickly kill them if I was good enough. Try doing that in the AR/Beatdown combo based game of today.

I don't want things that require relatively little skill to be as important as things that are difficult. I want to empower the players who have developed the core skills required for the game over time, thus giving the game more depth and longevity.

Aim and Reflexes can only go so far
I am talking about a lot more then just "aim and reflexes" when I say skill.

If your suggestion 'skill' should be the ultimate decider then it's back to basic 'First-shot-wins' gameplay.
Seriously? I'd love to hear you try and argue that point. Or at least type it in a way that makes sense.

Yes I can, I just did. Please attempt to rip it apart but I think you'll find it quite impossible. Which category would you place Quake III under? Ripping apart your attempt at placing it in one of your ridiculous categories will not be difficult.

Equipment and Vehicles don't slow down the game?
I'm sorry, it this a question? If so, then yes, they definitely do slow the game down.

I think you've mixed up Ability with Skill here. You see, Ability is just a single part of skill, it involves your comfort with the controls, advanced movement and quick thinking. Skill is Ability, Knowledge and Mindset. You won't be a top ranked player without all three, it doesn't matter about how quick your reflexes are or how good your aim is, if you know nothing about the map, weapons or game in general then you won't be able to execute your moves properly. This 'Quick-Thinking' you are talking about is a sub element that crosses the borderline between Ability and Mindset, maybe I'll type out a short essay on skill sometime and post it on B.net.
First of all, mindset has nothing to do with skill. It can affect the skill of a player, but it is not a skill in and of itself.

Secondly, a faster game requires a more well-versed knowledge of the game then a slow one. Faster games require faster recollection of knowledge (to the point where the game is second nature) and the ability to manipulate that knowledge faster. Faster games require a greater familiarness with their elements to play effectively.

And a faster game takes more skill? Stick to AC4/ACFA, you're usually partially-invisible because of the speed you are moving at. Speed doesn't equal skill. Otherwise the only skillful game would be AC4/ACFA.
I said that a faster game takes more skill then a slower one, and you twisted that into a "speed=skill" statement, which is both wrong and nonsensical, and therefor easier for you to respond to. Please reply to what I actually said.

I have indirectly stated (and am now directly stating) in my posts that skill encompasses many elements. I see the addition of speed to the game as a way of requiring players to achieve a greater familiarity with these elements to play at a high level. Prove me wrong.

And how would I change the game? I'd remove the BR.

I joke. I'd likely sort out some of the messed up spawning you get on some of the maps such as High Ground, Foundry and Narrows. Other than that I think the game is fine (minus the lag issues of course).

I could go on for pages about what I would tweak, add, and remove from Halo 3. Your criticism extends to the spawning on two maps.

I find this interesting.

My argument still stands. MLG's idea of Balance is Team Snipers.
Your statement ignores the fact that MLG doesn't use Team Snipers, or anything close to Team Snipers, in any of its gametypes, so it obviously is not "their idea of balance."

Well I did say Teamwork and BR skills. BR skills improves aim in general. However, people who play MLG will use the same tactics over and over again in default settings, they'll use equipment rarely or not at all and will prefer to be on foot rather than in a vehicle, in addition they'll drop nearly every weapon on a map for the BR, Mauler, Sniper or Rockets. It's a waste of strategies and tactics when most other players would use anything that can give them an advantage.
On the contrary, if high level players are good at one thing, its finding ways to exploit a game to their advantage. This is very easy for them in default Halo. This is why MLG gametypes are so carefully designed, to ensure that one element doesn't become overly dominant in a highly competitive environment.

They are perfectly capable of spawn killing with a Warthog and camping in a Bubbleshield. They would just prefer these things are not part of a tournament game for money.

  • 05.10.2009 2:00 PM PDT
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I see absolutely no problem with any weapon in this game. Halo 3 is the only game infact where i can say i felt that all weapons had been balanced to a high standard. so just keep the game how it is and have fun :)

great job on balance guys :D

  • 05.10.2009 7:55 PM PDT
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don't get shot by the noobs in halo

[Edited on 05.10.2009 9:06 PM PDT]

  • 05.10.2009 9:04 PM PDT

I had no Idea that people cared so much about the BR so much.

  • 05.10.2009 10:44 PM PDT
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Achronos is gotta be the best at everything

  • 05.10.2009 10:54 PM PDT

"Now they need to remove crouch jumping and the points system. Then their campaign towards musical-chairs-with-more-seats-than-people will be in full force."

# Big T Mac10

Posted by: abcde_farms
I had no Idea that people cared so much about the BR so much.


Living under a rock much?

Who cares though Bungie won't fix it, if there is one thing they should fix it would be Host selection and Network code!

New thread idea much

  • 05.11.2009 12:19 AM PDT
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i love the BR and wish i could start off with it on everyplaylist or atleast get to choose weather to start with a BR or AR on apperance

  • 05.11.2009 1:47 AM PDT
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My Br is ill, please help.


Also, the only people who complain are people who get wrecked with the br, it is my tool of destruction and its only tool of destruction for good players.

  • 05.11.2009 5:26 PM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

Posted by: Air Sparrow

Yes but it doesn't happen nearly as often as Halo 2. Halo 2 was far worse and the hitscan was the problem rather than just the latency on it's own. By removing the hitscan you remove the offline 'Sniping around corners' situation completely.

2xS = Double Shotting
3xS = Triple Shotting
4xS = Quad Shotting

In any case the BR had weapon glitches that overpowered it in CQB, I think we can both agree on that, I have heard of Doubleshotting on Halo 3 but I've not seen it yet first person.

So you are basically saying that in a laggy game of Halo 3 it's more inconsistent for the amount of leading you have to put on your shots compared to a decent game of Halo 2? Sorry but that's just plain obvious.

Yes, when it becomes Blue. Now I know that at close range the BR will act the same on Halo 2 but at a futher range you'll start missing shots the less centered you have the BR even if the reticule is red. Halo 2 didn't matter the distance, provided the reticule was red the center of the reticule could be several meters off target and you'd still get a four shot out of it. Seems a bit unfair to have homing bullets at that range, neither sniper or laser has anything like that on Halo 3, why should the BR?

Rewarded for inaccuracy? If you are missing shots and the reticule is centered you and your opponent are not very experienced, Halo 3 is more about weapon matchups and positioning than relying on dumb luck. You need a longer range weapon. Think Sniper, Laser, maybe Pistols? etc.

In Halo 3 if your reticule isn't on target you won't get anything out of it either, Halo 2 actually had a bullet homing system due to the hitscan and made attacking at a range easier. In Halo 2 you would be more likely to get the kill due to the extended range. Seems a little unfair when it's supposed to be a close-to-mid range weapon and not long range.

The latency issues are on Halo 2 and in some cases can be even worse than Halo 3, the hitscan made up for the long range problems but it also exaggerated the sniping around corners issue and created an offline sniping around corners issue.

So it's safe to assume that they like how that game has been made? I know I do, but I'd prefer it if the BR had an in-built coffee machine and a sugar dispenser.


I never had the sniping around corners problem in H2. Really, maybe I somehow didn't manage to notice it for the 2 1/2 years and over 12000 games that I played online alone. Not to mention the at least 50 (and that's a low estimate, probably more around 70-80 but I can't be sure) times that I have played H2 LAN customs, whether competitively or just dicking around with friends. But I doubt it.

I've never seen triple shotting. If your referring to someone doing RRX 2,3, and 4 times in a row then yes, but why not just call it double shotting? I've never heard of it referred to that way so it must be some glitch that I'm somehow unaware of. You can't doubleshot in Halo 3, people post videos of "double shotting" but its mostly just the animation and no bullets coming out with leader traits set to do higher damage. But yeah, certain button glitches did make the BR a much better weapon then just about every other weapon on H2. But the level of difficulty of actually doing the glitches was so low that literally anyone could do it. I mean, there were probably people who were level 10's who could BXR as fast as I, a level 34 could.

The point I was trying to make here was the amount you have to lead your shots changes every time your latency changes in every single game. You never know exactly how much you need to lead your shots in order to get your bullets to hit. I wasn't trying to compare a laggy game of H3 to a decent game of H2. What I was trying to say is that in for example a yellow bar game of H3 you have to lead your shots farther than a green bar game. You would probably have to lead less than a red bar game. But considering that even the slightest change in latency, even just a few ms, changes how far you have to lead your shots, the BR becomes inconsistent. In Halo 2 you could be in yellow bar and hit all of your bullets, albiet your target is going to be teleporting from place to place a lot more than it would be in H3. So when you go from game to game and the latency is different every game how are you supposed to know how far to shoot in front of someone without checking your latency all of the time? You can figure it out for a while by just changing how far in front of a person your shooting, but in a game where your playing with people, say on the West coast and you live on the East, the latency could be going in and out of green bar constantly making the H3 br far less consistent.

The H3 BR does not act the same as the H2 BR at close range. Go ahead and try it. You'll hit an insanely higher amount of bullets with the H3 BR when the reticule is blue at close range then you will with the H3 BR. The reason you miss shots with the H3 BR at long range is because the bullets take time to get to the target which you obviously know. Your right that the sniper shouldn't have that advantage, its already super accurate and the bullet travel time is so fast it might as well be a hitscan weapon, you never have to lead it unless shooting from one end of sandbox to another. Your also right that the laser shouldn't have that kind of advantage, but it like the sniper is also a one hit kill weapon, except the laser itself is quite large and you kill your target no matter where you hit it on the body, not to mention the splash damage.

Oh come on, people get completely rewarded for inaccuracy. If you have the 2/3 of your reticule off of your targets head and the bottom 1/3 or so on the very top of your targets head its not unlikely to have at least a majority if not enough bullets to kill your target actually hit. Again, go ahead and try it. Better yet, watch a film where you used the BR a lot. You can be at close range and have a large portion of your BR reticule off the target and still hit many bullets. Not as many land in H2. Bullet homing system? Are you referring to magnetism? That's in just about every FPS shooter, H3 included.

That's not safe to assume... at all. I said they don't post on the forums complaining. A lot of pro's have hundreds of posts over at the MLG site. I frequent over there and have ~200 myself, but do a lot more reading than posting. Most of them don't even post about H3 gameplay. Although there is a general consensus among them that H:CE is the best Halo made for competitive gaming, but that's another topic.

The fact is, In H3, bullets hit a target far more often when the reticule is blue then it did in H2. Its not even disputable. There are hundreds and hundreds of videos of evidense. You can even go and watch your own gameplay and see it happen. Obviously there are less H2 vids because there isn't a theater, but the H2 BR is more accurate plain and simple. Whether it is because of one feature or another its a more consistent weapon than the H3 BR, and one that doesn't often have bullets hitting a target that isn't in your aim.

Posted by: Air Sparrow
My argument still stands. MLG's idea of Balance is Halo CE.


Fix'd :]

[Edited on 05.11.2009 9:19 PM PDT]

  • 05.11.2009 9:16 PM PDT

Halo: CE > > Halo 3 > Halo: Reach = Halo 2

The BR is the best all around weapon in H3, and what i exclusively use... but it still is fubar, and i hate it.

  • 05.12.2009 3:13 AM PDT
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people complain about the br cause it now takes some skill to use it and isnt a weapon that can take u out in 4 shots at any distance

[Edited on 05.12.2009 7:39 AM PDT]

  • 05.12.2009 7:39 AM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

Posted by: Jake 1175
people complain about the br cause it now takes some skill to use it and isnt a weapon that can take u out in 4 shots at any distance


Read the post that is 2 posts above yours. Air Sparrow and I both make some interesting and valid points about the BR.

  • 05.12.2009 8:35 AM PDT
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The pistol is better

/thread.

  • 05.12.2009 8:41 AM PDT
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Achronos could never talk about The BR i could out BR him in a 1v1 anyday.

  • 05.12.2009 6:46 PM PDT

my new GT is Moth Zero

you know what? I like the BR. I can't understand why people need to complain about it. Bungie made the gun the way it is, and I love it. So if you have negative things to say, I'm sorry, but I disagree.

And people that complain about the weapon are people who backpedal while spamming grenades.

  • 05.12.2009 10:24 PM PDT

Halo: CE > > Halo 3 > Halo: Reach = Halo 2

Posted by: xThel Vadamee
The pistol is better

/thread.

The Halo 1 pistol, indeed. More fun, and more skilled. Skill = Fun... something i think bungie has forgot.

  • 05.13.2009 12:13 AM PDT

Halo: CE > > Halo 3 > Halo: Reach = Halo 2

What we (mlg) need/s is the option in forge to change bullet damage, rate of fire, and the amount of bullets in a burst. Then we could have a BR that is a single (one bullet) burst rifle, with the rate of fire of the Halo 1 pistol, and a 4-5 shot kill.

  • 05.13.2009 12:18 AM PDT