- Nokterne
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- Exalted Member
Posted by: Air Sparrow
I don't suppose you could state just a few examples of reducing the first shot advantage in other games?
Well, Quake 3 does it by giving the player a wide range of movement and evasion options. If you are caught off guard, it doesn't guarantee a death if you are skilled enough.
More common but less powerful? So you'd have the players more commonly getting the initial shot due to surprise/luck and reduce the power of the initial shot or the BR entirely? I think that's an even poorer solution to the equipment. It just means that the first shot fired by both players is weaker than the other shots, logically this would change nothing at all.
Please READ my posts. I said...
Posted by: Nokterne
If I were to re-make Halo 3's equipment with the purpose of reducing first shot advantage (because eliminating first-shot advantage would be retarded), I would make it more common but less powerful.
I was talking about changing the EQUIPMENT (making it more common but less powerful), and in no way suggested altering the power or frequency of first-shot advantage.
The Pistol is a Mid-range weapon, if someone is close enough to beat you down with the AR then you are either too close, too slow to countermove or just not smart enough to beatdown and headshot.
When I said M6D, I was referring to the Halo CE pistol, not Halo 3's M6G.
And you and I both know that an AR/Beatdown is much faster then a Beatdown followed by a BR Headshot. They delay after hitting the beatdown button is the main cause of this (note, I'm not suggesting that this needs a change).
How much skill something requires is irrelevant. Skill is a word human beings made up to make themselves feel superior to other people. As for core skills it sounds like how well you can play the game and find new ways to play it in order to get better at it? Sounds like we want the same thing.
This section doesn't make much sense. You start by saying that skill is irrelevant (LOL), and then start talking about core skills.
Not really. This 'counter with the pistol by spinning around' move you are talking about is simply your ability with the controls. A huge majority of which forms aim and reflexes, I'm not bang-on-the-mark but I'm pretty close to it. Would you mind stating what you mean by skill otherwise?
I believe I already have, but I will reiterate.
For me, skill in FPS's encompasses a wide variety of traits, which are unique to each individual game. To throw out some common examples though...
- Aim
- Reflexes
- Strategy/Tactics
- Map Knowledge
- Memory/Anticipation/Judgement
- Improvisation/Creativity
- The ability to process, gauge, and otherwise react to all of the above quickly (also known as quick thinking).
Your idea of skill in addition to knowledge of the game and teamwork is the ability to aim well, react well and think quickly.
See above.
Imagine this, two players practice the game for a long time, the two of them become the best players in the world, they've reached the point where they can both pull of a consistant perfect four shot in a fraction of a second after seeing an opponent. At this point if the two players face off 1 vs 1 for a single kill, who will win? The one with better positioning? The one that knows more about the game? It'll always be the one that gets the initial shot.Quake III? Sight-based. I believe the two above sections can be addressed by linking to a video.
http://www.quakeunity.com/file=2753
It's a 1v1 game of QuakeLive (browser version of Quake 3). Watch how important all the elements I listed above are, particularly in the second half of the video (the first half is just Zero4 getting dominated). Also notice how important controlling the power-ups is, and how each weapons has a specific purpose, but isn't the sole defining factor in who wins each encounter.
If you can't see how this isn't just a sight based game, then I can't help you.
At the pinnacle of perfection of your idea of skill, it simply comes down to the first shot advantage. Skill must be made up of more than just that.
See the video above (both of those players are extremely close to the pinnacle of skill) and see my above list.
Actually it was meant to be sarcasm. Vehicles add more into the game. They add a new element and providing both teams are on a symetrical map with identical vehicles symetrically placed I don't see how it unbalances the game or slows it down.
In my opinion, they make it much too easy for team with control to maintain control, especially if they also have control of the main anti-vehicle weapons.
I'm definitely not saying they should be removed from regular Halo 3, but I do think MLG was wise to remove them from their gametypes. They don't work well in 4v4 games, and they especially don't work on the smaller maps that MLG prefers to use.
Really? So if I charge the opponents over and over again I'm not any less skilled if I take a laid-back kind of approach? Your Mindset determines how you play, in addition if you have things to deal with in the back of your mind it'll affect you as you play. Your Mindset might be the ultimate decider in higher level games.
You are confusing strategy and tactics with mindset. Charging over and over is a tactic, not a mindset.
I know people who play better when angry, and vice-versa. Mindset is simply something that affects your ability/skill, and again, not a skill in and of itself.
Recollecting and Manipulating knowledge isn't all there is to skill.
I have NEVER stated that skill consists of such a narrow set of elements. Again, see my list, and PLEASE stop trying to tell me my own definition of skill.
No one game can be compared to another as both play differently, whether it's Halo CE to Halo 3 or Halo CE to COD or even Halo CE to AC4.
I think this depends on the games you are comparing, but I'm not going to argue about this here.
Your argument was:
Faster Game = More Skill
Slower Game = Less Skill
So this would logically convert to:
Faster Game>Slower Game
Yes.
Which would also logically convert to:
Speed = Skill
No. This implies that skill consists of one element, which I have stated over and over to not be my position.
I'm saying that speed adds to skill, NOT that it's the only factor in what makes a game skillful.
A greater familiarity with these elements?
Agreed. Knowing how Halo 3 is meant to be played and playing it accordingly is definately one of the points I'm trying to get across.
No game is "meant" to played one particular way. There are variations for every type of game or sport. (ex. European Ice Hockey or NHL Hockey, Touch Football or Full Contact Football, etc)
Just because they don't have an MLG Snipers gametype set up doesn't mean they aren't wanting the value of the sniper passed onto the BR. I guess my statement does ignore that fact but the idea of Team Snipers being MLG's idea of balance isn't too far fetched.
I will gladly debate the " No-spread BR = sniper" argument with you, but not in this ridiculous multi-quote fest we are having.
I'm sure they are but they'll still prefer the MLG tactics over the commonplace ones. And sticking only to the MLG tactics means you waste the commonplace and unorthodox strategies.
I don't see how this addresses what I said.
Air Sparrow, I suggest we pick one thing to debate, because this multi-quote-giant-post thing is getting really annoying.