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  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
Subject: The Only BR Thread

"Death is an inconvenience now.... We are All Dead Men Walking."
"The Sniper Rifle is a Support weapon, your supposed to sneak around with it. Not stand in the open"
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Posted by: Justin Pletka
When people complain about the Battle Rifle they complain it sucks and gets them killed. Have they ever considered their skill level at Halo 3? Get better at Halo 3.


When I complain about BR I blame it on myself because as I put it "Not Able to shoot the inside of a barn"

  • 07.06.2008 4:07 PM PDT
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Exactly,......BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM,....four shots to the head gets the job done...its the perfect mid-range weapon...in a dream world...bungie changes it to carry 3 weapons...Snipe- long range, BR - mid range, and Shotty - for short range...but so there actually has to be some skill...keep it at 2 Bungie

  • 07.06.2008 4:19 PM PDT

Posted by: mooshmoossh
I like the BR just the way it is.

I really don't see what's wrong with it.
more BR starts is all i want. i'm tired of getting a good map, but no BR start. it makes me angry and sad.

  • 07.06.2008 4:32 PM PDT

Do you see the tigers too?!?!?

I think people need to stop being ignorant and deal with how the BR spread is.
Bungie Probably won't be looking into this at all so why complain?
People need to deal with the BR spread and move on with their lives
Achronos even said that anyone looking for further response from bungie are going to be dissapointed...so why complain?

  • 07.06.2008 4:42 PM PDT
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the BR is great, im glad they came up with it for halo2, can't imagine if it wasn't around its helped me out alot of times and in halo 3 if you know how to use it your bound to get alot of kills

  • 07.06.2008 6:10 PM PDT

the BR is great the way it is stop moaning

  • 07.06.2008 6:36 PM PDT
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Posted by: Thebodybag00
the BR is great, im glad they came up with it for halo2, can't imagine if it wasn't around its helped me out alot of times and in halo 3 if you know how to use it your bound to get alot of kills

Sure, you'll get a lot of kills, but nowadays all anyone uses is the BR. It shouldn't be the only weapon anyone uses, but as time passes it seems that it is indeed. Most of the time the person with the highest kills has a BR as his or her TOD.

I dunno, I guess I'm just missing the variety. The whole 4 shots to the head thing gets really boring after awhile.

  • 07.06.2008 7:00 PM PDT
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Its not the same as halo 2 throw it in and u will know this

  • 07.06.2008 7:39 PM PDT

Posted by: Ttone5722
Posted by: BakedPotatoLive
Do I have to go through this with you again?

Injuries in sport are not randomly generated. If randomness in sport = randomness in BR spread, players would be 50 yards away from the contest and suddenly break a leg. The randomness in sport that you believe ='s randomness in BR spread is always caused by an event. Neither is foreseeable, correct, but:

Randomness in BR = Unforeseeable, generated randomly
Randomness in Sport = Unforeseeable, due to an event/property (eg. Collision, Soft Tissue Injury)

If the BR randomness was replaced with Sport-like randomness, then properties would determine the severity of the spread, eg. (Speed, Trajectory)

If the randomness in Sport was replaced with the Br randomness, players could suddenly gain broken bones / muscle tears as they wait around for the kick-off, seemingly out of the blue.
I hope that explains it, I didn't make perfect sense but hopefully you get the idea.


I get what you're saying, I just don't agree. I'm not equating injuries in sport to the BR spread, merely saying that randomness is a part of most, if not all, competitions. If you're trying to say that sports have no randomness at all, then, IMO, you're sadly mistaken.



There is no randomness in sport, just unforeseeable events. If you can't understand that then, you are the one that is sadly mistaken.

  • 07.06.2008 8:24 PM PDT

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Are you people serious? This is still going on? All that is going to be said by the true BR purists who did their homework has been said, but for quick reference here's one of the most well put together posts on this subject.

Posted by: HaVOk1228
***Disclaimer: All numbers I've used here in my changes are simply example. Using the medians of the current values COULD work, but the values would have to be tested. So argue the concept, not the values.****

What you did was simply cut the Max Moe in half. Okay, lets just use the first bullet for now. The first bullets MoE is not .15. That is its maximum MoE. Its MoE is actually anywhere between .00 and .15. Since the MoE varies, there is no actual set range. There is only a range at which the BR(with perfect aim) will definitely hit all three shots to the head. That distance is 7 world units. Therefore, the current BR has an indefinite range anywhere between 7 and infinite World Units, since the Random spread actually makes it possible for the BR to shoot 3 bullets that all go perfectly straight. Pure math says that actually happens just as often as the maximum spread. So the "Range" that you calculated, happens rarely, and actually happens as often as a "no spread' shot.

This randomness is bad. The BR has no set range. One burst it could have a range of 11 WUs, the next it could have a range of 84 WUs. Thats not good for gameplay.

So currently the BR has a Minimum range of 7 WUs.
It has a Potential range of Infinite WUs.

If Bungie's random number generator works properly, the median range is about 14 WUs.

Now, if you take the MoE of the first bullet, and instead of having it .00-.15, you change that to .07-.08, you've created a more consistent BR, that has just about always the same range as 14 WUs. The third bullet here would have a MoE of .19, instead of anywhere between .00 and .38.

You may say, "Well that adds more range to the BR." This is KIND OF true, it adds to the MINIMUM range of the BR, which before was 7. With this system, the Minimum range is 14. So with perfect aim, the BR will always be 100% efficient within 14 units.

However, even though it added to the Minimum Range, it took even more from the potential range. That also, is now at 14 instead of Infinite.

So the current BR has a range anywhere up to Infinite WUs. That's quite a big range, and thats a lot of inconsistency. Bungie says they toned down its range, when in reality, they toned down its range on some bursts, then others the range is super far.

The BR with these changes would have a range of 14. It wouldn't go higher. The current BR has a range greater than 14 49% of the time. So for half your bursts, this BR would be less accurate. For the other half, it would be more accurate. So hearing that you may say "Well then what's the difference?" The BR with these changes would be more consistent. A roll of dice would not determine how accurate your BR shot is on each burst. Its also is not eliminating the spread.

***Disclaimer: All numbers I've used here in my changes are simply example. Using the medians of the current values COULD work, but the values would have to be tested. So argue the concept, not the values.****

  • 07.06.2008 8:42 PM PDT

"Death is an inconvenience now.... We are All Dead Men Walking."
"The Sniper Rifle is a Support weapon, your supposed to sneak around with it. Not stand in the open"
"Armor Lock is boss if you know how to use it!"
"I like the idea of a professional troll, though, it makes me think of a hideous creature under a bridge handing out business cards." -Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw

Posted by: CravenC21h30o2
Are you people serious? This is still going on? All that is going to be said by the true BR purists who did their homework has been said, but for quick reference here's one of the most well put together posts on this subject.

[


Dude I'm not even talking about the Halo 3 BR talking about why they changed it from Single shot to burst Idk what everyone else is talking about.

  • 07.06.2008 9:43 PM PDT
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Just because an injury is not mathematically random doesn't mean it isn't random. Once again, if a football player makes a thousand tackles during his career but sustains a career-ending injury on his last one I would call it random. It could have happened on his first tackle or on #500, any of which are events that "could " cause injury. And by the way, there are multiple events in any sport that could happen at random.

The BR was intended to have a random element that apparently most pros are able to deal with-- some choose to voice a negative opinion. I'm sure there are some that hate the BR spread that don't say anything, but out of 200,000 people playing MM everyday, you don't see 101,000 complaints. I'm not going to guess how many I have seen, but I am going to guess that the complainers are in a minority. Now BakedPotato, tell me why randomness should be removed from competitive gaming.

  • 07.06.2008 10:16 PM PDT

Posted by: Ttone5722
Just because an injury is not mathematically random doesn't mean it isn't random. Once again, if a football player makes a thousand tackles during his career but sustains a career-ending injury on his last one I would call it random. It could have happened on his first tackle or on #500, any of which are events that "could " cause injury. And by the way, there are multiple events in any sport that could happen at random.


Yes, they "could" have caused injury, but they couldn't have caused a career ending injury. The only tackle that could have caused a career ending injury is the one that gave him a career ending injury. Therefore the "career ending injury" itself is not random, but when compared to the copious amount of similar (yet not exactly similar) tackle, you perceive it to be random. That element of randomness is fine in gaming. An example of that element of randomness would be StrongSide having 1001 Sniper battles, and winning the first 1000 before losing the last. Therefore the "Sniper battle loss" itself is not random, but when compared to the copious amount of Sniper battles that StrongSide won beforehand, you perceieve it to be random. Now of course that element of randomness in present, but it is in no way akin to the randomness in the Battle Rifle. One is random when compared to other outcomes, whilst the other is mathematically generated. I cannot think of a single, professional competition that employs mathematical randomness as seen in the BR spread. There is simply no professional, real-world equivalent.

Perceived randomness is present everywhere in life - it is when an outcome goes against what you think is the logical (or popular) outcome. It isn't just present in Sport, it is present in real life aswell, for eg. over the last 12 weeks you have been given a paycheck of $100. But on the 13th week you got given a paycheck of $200. You would say that this is random, but actually you have been given the extra $100 for working the hardest as measured by the supervisor. There is a cause, but it appears random when compared to the popular outcome. If, however the Boss put 25 names into a computer and got it to select a name by random to give the extra $100 to, then that is similar to the randomness seen in the BR.

I hope you understood that, I found it hard to understand upon reading over it, but hopefully you get the idea.

Posted by: Ttone5722
The BR was intended to have a random element that apparently most pros are able to deal with-- some choose to voice a negative opinion. I'm sure there are some that hate the BR spread that don't say anything, but out of 200,000 people playing MM everyday, you don't see 101,000 complaints. I'm not going to guess how many I have seen, but I am going to guess that the complainers are in a minority. Now BakedPotato, tell me why randomness should be removed from competitive gaming.


Minority opinion - don't try and undermine it. Just because our population is not as dense as the majority, does not make our opinion any less valid or any less accurate. Trying to belittle our argument based on popularity is a cop-out.

Why should mathematical randomness be removed from competitive gaming? Simple. Skill does not equal mathematical randomness. Competitive gaming should determine who the best team is during the tournament, not the luckiest team who had the most luck with the BR spread. Is that not what competition aims to do, determine the best team? In Halo, to some extent it determines the luckiest, and luck is a poor substitute for skill. I can not think of a single professional competition that employs mathematical randomness - if you can, I'd like to hear it.

[Edited on 07.06.2008 10:56 PM PDT]

  • 07.06.2008 10:55 PM PDT

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Posted by: WsP POP TART
Posted by: CravenC21h30o2
Are you people serious? This is still going on? All that is going to be said by the true BR purists who did their homework has been said, but for quick reference here's one of the most well put together posts on this subject.

[


Dude I'm not even talking about the Halo 3 BR talking about why they changed it from Single shot to burst Idk what everyone else is talking about.


I wasn't talking to you either. And when the hell was the BR single shot? That would be never, so i don't understand what exactly your post has to do with the BR. It was a 3 bullet burst shot weapon when it was introduced in H2. If you want a single shot rifle weapon look no further than the convenant carbine. The randomized bullet spread was the reason for my post. If you take away the randomization of the spread you would make it a precision weapon geared towards skill. The effective range would actually drop, 49% of the time it's greater than 14 WU which would be the max WU if the random spread were eliminated. It's not about making it accurate, or the end all be all godly weapon. It's about making it a precise skill.

On a side note people love to exclaim all day long how if you made the BR like it was in H2 then it would be overpowered. i wonder to myself, if that's true then why in the world were other weapons needed in H2? Why did I feel the need to pick up a sniper, shotgun, sword, brute shot, carbine, and in some cases even the needler was more advantageous? What about making it precise makes it more powerful? It only refines the weapon into a 3 shot burst that will guarantee a skilled player the kill that is deserved by 4 shoting an enemy. It will also reduce the likelyhood of a kill at greater than 14 world units thereby actually weakening the long range effectiveness, and making it the mid-range weapon it was originally designed to be.

So far there are no tactical, I highlight this word because there are some out there, button cheats to increase the BR's effectiveness at close range. H2's BxR and BxB button cheats plus the hitscan shot made the BR in H2 more effective all around than any other weapon in the game. Simply returning the non-random bullet spread for H3 will not do so. This is the point that many people, including myslef, have been trying to get people to understand.

But alas Bungie has stated that nothing will be done about it, and nothing really can be done about it. This is why many of the BR purists refuse to post anymore, but I would just like Bungie to take note of some of these things for their next game. I don't mean to insult anyone by infering that BR users are any more skilled than AR, or any other weapon for that matter.

  • 07.06.2008 10:55 PM PDT

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Posted by: BakedPotatoLive
I can not think of a single professional competition that employs mathematical randomness - if you can, I'd like to hear it.


World Series of Poker. I'm on your side dude, but there are some random things, like wind, even in baseball.

Fixing the random BR spread wouldn't only benifit the competitive gaming community; it would benifit the average XBL player as well, but this fact seems to escape everyone. Although you would be increasing the effective range of the BR 51% of the time you would actually be decreasing it 49% of the time. This part of the randomness is what makes the BR unfair in it's current design. When a lucky player on the other team can 4 shot me from accross the map because his bullets just happened to be accurate at 89 world units, whereas mine were only accurate at 10 world units is grossly unfair. Taking away random spread would effectively eliminate this and give both players equal opportunity to gain the long distance kill.

  • 07.06.2008 11:05 PM PDT

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Posted by: Ttone5722
The BR was intended to have a random element that apparently most pros are able to deal with.


If you've ever watched a professional gaming competition then you know that most pros deal with it by shooting an extra burst. The clean 4 shot is rare even umong the professional Halo 3 players.

  • 07.06.2008 11:07 PM PDT

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Posted by: SmashBros x PAP
Exactly,......BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM,....four shots to the head gets the job done...its the perfect mid-range weapon...in a dream world...bungie changes it to carry 3 weapons...Snipe- long range, BR - mid range, and Shotty - for short range...but so there actually has to be some skill...keep it at 2 Bungie


Actually it's 3 shots anywhere on the body, even the toe, and one to the head.

  • 07.06.2008 11:10 PM PDT

Posted by: CravenC21h30o2
Posted by: BakedPotatoLive
I can not think of a single professional competition that employs mathematical randomness - if you can, I'd like to hear it.


World Series of Poker. I'm on your side dude, but there are some random things, like wind, even in baseball.


That isn't mathermatical randomness.

  • 07.06.2008 11:12 PM PDT

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Posted by: ILALQ
Posted by: Thebodybag00
the BR is great, im glad they came up with it for halo2, can't imagine if it wasn't around its helped me out alot of times and in halo 3 if you know how to use it your bound to get alot of kills

Sure, you'll get a lot of kills, but nowadays all anyone uses is the BR. It shouldn't be the only weapon anyone uses, but as time passes it seems that it is indeed. Most of the time the person with the highest kills has a BR as his or her TOD.

I dunno, I guess I'm just missing the variety. The whole 4 shots to the head thing gets really boring after awhile.


I'm not sure what game you're playing but rarely is one match centered around just BR shooting. There is soooo much variety, even an MLG Slayer match on Amplified, where there are no weapons on map, has more variety than you claim. It's about the thrill of teamwork, the skill of the well placed grenade, all leading up to the final kill FTW. If you're playing another gametype other than MLG then you're greatly mistaken, and missing the variety right in front of your face. There are sooo many different kinds of weapons, powerups, equipment, and vehicles that you could play for 24 hours straight and not experience it all in Halo 3's matchmaking online.

  • 07.06.2008 11:16 PM PDT

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Posted by: BakedPotatoLive
Posted by: CravenC21h30o2
Posted by: BakedPotatoLive
I can not think of a single professional competition that employs mathematical randomness - if you can, I'd like to hear it.


World Series of Poker. I'm on your side dude, but there are some random things, like wind, even in baseball.


That isn't mathermatical randomness.


Are you telling me that the randomness of the cards in the deck is not mathematically random? You're joking right? And with wind there's an equal mathematical chance that it will gust at just the right moment sending the ball over the wall for a home run, as it is that it will gust against the ball making an easy catch for the outfielder. What part of these two examples that I've provided are not mathematically random?

  • 07.06.2008 11:18 PM PDT

Posted by: CravenC21h30o2
Posted by: BakedPotatoLive
Posted by: CravenC21h30o2
Posted by: BakedPotatoLive
I can not think of a single professional competition that employs mathematical randomness - if you can, I'd like to hear it.


World Series of Poker. I'm on your side dude, but there are some random things, like wind, even in baseball.


That isn't mathermatical randomness.


Are you telling me that the randomness of the cards in the deck is not mathematically random? You're joking right? And with wind there's an equal mathematical chance that it will gust at just the right moment sending the ball over the wall for a home run, as it is that it will gust against the ball making an easy catch for the outfielder. What part of these two examples that I've provided are not mathematically random?


The cards are shuffled at a certain velocity and cards are moved to certain places. That is not mathematical randomness. If you shuffle the cards and get dealt the two first cards, that isn't mathematically random. The cards you got given were at the top due to the shuffling technique, speed and many other variables. The cards are not put into place by generating a position by using a computer.

Wind is caused by air flowing from high to low pressure systems. Therefore wind has a cause. It is not generated by a computer, like you see when you play Mario Golf. Saying wind is mathematically random is like saying that tides are mathematically random, even though their value is determined by the moon.

[Edited on 07.06.2008 11:27 PM PDT]

  • 07.06.2008 11:26 PM PDT

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Posted by: BakedPotatoLive
The cards are shuffled at a certain velocity and cards are moved to certain places. That is not mathematical randomness. If you shuffle the cards and get dealt the two first cards, that isn't mathematically random. The cards you got given were at the top due to the shuffling technique, speed and many other variables. The cards are not put into place by generating a position by using a computer.

Wind is caused by air flowing from high to low pressure systems. Therefore wind has a cause. It is not generated by a computer, like you see when you play Mario Golf. Saying wind is mathematically random is like saying that tides are mathematically random, even though their value is determined by the moon.


What makes you think the only way to create a mathematically random outcome is though computer generation?

The two cards that are on top are completely random out of 52 cards. The only way to defy this random event is by having the knowledge of where every card in the deck is at the time they are dealt. That would be cheating.

The chances of the wind gusting one way or another are completely random at any given moment in time. What does the wind have to do with tides? Look kid I'm not trying to insult you, but you really need to take a statistics class before you start telling me what mathematical randomness is. Everything in life is mathematically random. There are even chances that you will step on a rock and roll your ankle walking down the street.

When I look closer at what you're saying it becomes clear that what you're getting at is none of these things are "Perfectly Random". If this is your point then neither is the BR spread or any other game that you play. The randomness in video games is programmed into them by the game's creators. Specific variables were put in place in the coding of the BR as to the parameters within which the "random" BR spread is generated. Nothing is "perfectly random". Scientists can't even create a computer program that is completely random. I have adressed every possible facet of your random argument, now can we get back on topic here. We were talking about the Halo 3 BR and what's wrong with it.

[Edited on 07.06.2008 11:56 PM PDT]

  • 07.06.2008 11:46 PM PDT

"I see fire and I see flames. I see evil people strung up all in chains."

the "randomness" factor that so many complain about in the game can't seem to realize that the BR is in all actuality, more accurate in representation of an Assault Rifle (not the auto AR in halo 3, actual assault rifles like the M16 for example) and its kick. 3 round bursts are quickly fired in order to minimize kick making it possible for a much tighter grouping of One 3-round burst, however, there is a possibility of spread.

the only issue i can see here with my opinion is someone replying to this by saying, "MC is a mega-soldier with uber-strength and control. human soldiers can minimize the spread of a 3-round burst better than this game blah blah blah...."

i guess you can't make everyone happy.

  • 07.06.2008 11:58 PM PDT

Posted by: CravenC21h30o2
The two cards that are on top are completely random out of 52 cards. The only way to defy this random event is by having the knowledge of where every card in the deck is at the time they are dealt. That would be cheating.


How are they completely random? Randomness is a lack of order, cause, purpose or predictability. How can they be completely random when they have a cause, which is, as I said, certain variables of the shuffling?

Posted by: CravenC21h30o2
The chances of the wind gusting one way or another are completely random at any given moment in time. What does the wind have to do with tides?


I used tides as an example help you get the idea. But, seeing as you weren't even able to comprehend that, then it's no wonder you can't comprehend my argument. I'm no expert on wind so I can't comment on what you are saying about the equal chance of gusting, but a quick google search reveals this -

" Is a sudden, brief increase in speed of the wind. According to U.S. weather observing practice, gusts are reported when the peak wind speed reaches at least 16 knots and the variation in wind speed between the peaks and lulls is at least 9 knots."

How is wind gusting random? You can predict when it will happen and there is a cause for it. To me, that isn't random.

Posted by: CravenC21h30o2
Look kid I'm not trying to insult you, but you really need to take a statistics class before you start telling me what mathematical randomness is. Everything in life is mathematically random. There are even chances that you will step on a rock and roll your ankle walking down the street.


Well maybe mathematical randomness was the wrong term to use. Perhaps I should have used a different term, but surely you can agree that the randomness in the BR spread is different to the perceived randomness in sporting events.

  • 07.07.2008 12:01 AM PDT

People only complain about the H3 BR because the H2 BR was WAYYY over powered and had those godly glitches that made it a godly weapon mid and long range, and a sword/shotgun close range. Idc if it's changed or not, I'm leaning more towards I want it to be changed cause the BR is my favorite weapon and I would like to own more with it, it would make the game more fast pace.

  • 07.07.2008 12:04 AM PDT