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  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
Subject: The Only BR Thread

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Posted by: Shakespeare212
Posted by: CravenC21h30o2


OH DEAR GOD! If you would please read previous posts you would not think that it's fine. Nor would you be so narrow minded on the issue. Also please if you're going to continue to post on this thread PLEASE post something more than just your opinion of the BR.


I've followed this debate since the beginning and I'm a heavy BR-user - and I still don't agree with you. The point that the guy you're responding to was trying to make was, regardless of how many world units the BR range is set what effect at, not everybody who uses the BR feels unfairly handicapped by it.

An experienced player has a good feel for the limitations of the weapons he or she uses and adjusts strategy accordingly. Both teams play under the same limitations. If you engage an enemy under conditions you can't control (i.e. out of accurate range) and get taken down by a lucky bullet that's a poor strategy choice on your part, not poor game design.

It's like blaming a lost basketball game on the ref - only Halo 3 is an arena that can't be anything other than neutral because it applys the same rules to all players. As long as that's the case, the question of how the BR should behave at specific ranges are simply matters of personal opinion.


When you design a weapon to be effective at a range greater than it currently is truely effective at, and at the same time it is effective at a greater range than EVER intended, the fault IS in the design. Bungie themselves have stated previously that the BR is a medium range weapon. Medium range has been explained as being 14 world units by, I believe, shishka. If these two things are accurate than the BR is 1) not a medium range weapon like it's design is supposed to lend to. 2) is in fact operating outside of it's designed capabilities. Halo 3 is also a Competitive Combat Simulator. When you make a game to be competitve it should not have a luck factor designed into the game. This does not promote skill, which is needed to compete. In, to use your example, basketball the ball doesn't randomly inflate/deflate based on luck to give you an advantage when you're shooting. The hoop doesn't randomly move to make your shot more accurate. Basketball requires skill in order to play the game, not luck. Halo, in it's current state, requires skill, with a heavy amount of luck involved. This promotes an uneven, and unfair competition which makes your point about skillful use of strategy moot and useless.


Also, just to make sure we're clear, there is a difference in the facts that I'm presenting that support my opinion of the BR in it's current state, and the opinion of the multitudes of bnet forum goers that wish to only post "I love the BR, if you don't like it don't use it", or simply "leave the BR alone!!!!!!!". Opinion based on fact is welcomed, pure opinion is not needed, we've heard plenty of it at this point, from both sides, and we'd like to continue this discussion in a more professional matter.

[Edited on 07.12.2008 9:59 PM PDT]

  • 07.12.2008 9:54 PM PDT

Posted by: CravenC21h30o2

When you design a weapon to be effective at a range greater than it currently is truely effective at, and at the same time it is effective at a greater range than EVER intended, the fault IS in the design. Bungie themselves have stated previously that the BR is a medium range weapon. Medium range has been explained as being 14 world units by, I believe, shishka. If these two things are accurate than the BR is 1) not a medium range weapon like it's design is supposed to lend to. 2) is in fact operating outside of it's designed capabilities. Halo 3 is also a Competitive Combat Simulator. When you make a game to be competitve it should not have a luck factor designed into the game. This does not promote skill, which is needed to compete. In, to use your example, basketball the ball doesn't randomly inflate/deflate based on luck to give you an advantage when you're shooting. The hoop doesn't randomly move to make your shot more accurate. Basketball requires skill in order to play the game, not luck. Halo, in it's current state, requires skill, with a heavy amount of luck involved. This promotes an uneven, and unfair competition which makes your point about skillful use of strategy moot and useless.


Maybe the BR does operate outside it's original intended design, maybe it doesn't - but it's largely irrelevant to the point I'm making. You're right that a basketball player doesn't have to worry about the hoop moving randomly, but a good ballplayer also knows not to take a shot at a time when he's flatfooted or his footwork is off because he's off-balance, and that lessens the amount of control he'll have over his shot, thus introducing an element of randomness. Sometimes that same ballplayer may make a choice to take the shot anyway under those conditions, and sometimes he may be forced to by game events, but these are conditions that occur naturally in the game - the manner in which a player chooses to handle them, including the decision to proceed with a course of action under circumstances they cannot control, are strategic decisions.

The point is, the fact that conditions exist in Halo 3 under which you can choose to engage an opponent and have the outcome be subject to a certain degree of randomness or "luck" (assuming you can even prove that the amount of "luck" involved significantly alters the ultimate outcome of a BR battle - which you can't, because that's a subjective argument and can't be proven either way), is not conclusive evidence that Halo 3 promotes unfair or uneven competition.

Now what might be a viable argument for your side would be raising the question of whether or not the interaction between map size and the 14 world unit range somehow forces more "randomized" BR battles. Perhaps your efforts would be more effectively spent arguing that point, rather than arbitrarily declaring my arguments "moot and useless."

Sorry if that last bit was unnecessarily snarky, but trying to sneak provoking comments in like you did really is poor form if you truly are striving for a more professional level of debate here, not to mention, again a subjective opinion.

[Edited on 07.12.2008 10:54 PM PDT]

  • 07.12.2008 10:52 PM PDT

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Posted by: HaIo FkN cide
Posted by: BerserkerBarage

The "default" version of both Slayer and Team Slayer had different weapons on spawn depending on which map you played on. Apparently those are what Bungie initially envisioned the game to be played like. They gave you other "custom game" options just like Snipers, Rockets, Iron CTF, and Slayer Pro for FFA just like they give you Oddball, VIP, Territories, Rockets in H3.

~B.B.


Ha ha ha I'm not talking about TEAM Slayer Pro, I'm talking about Slayer Pro which, if you knew anything about Halo CE was a default stock gametype in Halo CE. And EVERY non-class based FPS has a "General weapon" that you spawn with. I'm loving this really.


I'm going to highlight something that I said previously and you quoted me on in hopes that it makes it through to whatever you use to attempt to mimic cognitive thought. I understand that Slayer Pro was a "gametype" in HCE and that it was included in the pre-made gametypes in HCE. I've said that before and I'm saying it now. Hopefully you can follow along. However there are "default" gametypes such as "Slayer" or "Team Slayer" in HCE that are by their essence the way Bungie says is the default, originally set up way of playing. They added in other gametype varients that you can try out (what we now call 'custom game variants') but that doesn't change the fact that even in HCE the "default" way that Bungie had the game setup did not include the M6D on spawn except on a very few levels. It is also very apparent that the way Bungie original envisioned Team Slayer (since it's the only pre-made TS variant) was that players would spawn with various weapons according to the level and that the more people you killed the slower you would move (the so-called 'kill-penalty')

Bickering aside, Bungie made HCE as a game that still focused on a "general" weapon (mostly the AR in HCE) that was incapable of doing headshots. They also built into the generic Team Slayer variant a mechanic that penalized the exceptionally good players in order to help balance them against the average players. It was that way that they sought to balance the game and weapons. They included other (some pre-made) gametypes that allowed people to fashion and change the game to however they preferred. If you wanted to play Team Snipers on Prisoner, you could. That doesn't change the fact that on a prima facie basis that FFA Slayer and Team Slayer defaults were NOT competitively geared.

So where's that leave us? Competitive players did then what they do now. They changed and crafted the game in order to make it "more competitive" in their viewpoints. They started using the 'custom game variant' called Slayer Pro and many created another 'custom game variant' called Team Slayer Pro. This variants gave players a general weapon (the AR) and a precision weapon (M6D) on spawn which could arguably make the gameplay "more competitive". Halo Combat Evolved didn't start out as a "competitive" game. Players altered it to that. Just like with Halo 2 it didn't start out as a "competitive" game, the players altered it to that to fit their desires. Now, with Halo 3, the game wasn't created to be a "competitive" game but it allows players the ability to adjust 'custom gametypes' into making it more of a "competitive" feel.

That's what this is all boiling down to. People are upset with Bungie because they feel that the random bullet spread in the H3 BR doesn't promote competitive play. It may or may not according to your own opinion. What doesn't change is the fact that Bungie HAS NEVER made the default game to appeal to the competitive style. That was the case in HCE. That was the case in H2. That was the case in H3. What Bungie has done and continues to do is to allow players the ability to mold and shape gameplay variants in order to allow the player to play how they want to play. It doesn't change the fact that Bungie has an intended way that may or may not be different.

Anyone who thinks that HCE was this incredibly competitive game based upon the fact that they had a weapon on spawn that rewarded headshots isn't playing HCE the way Bungie originally intended it to be played by default. Slayer Pro isn't "Slayer". It's a custom game variant of Slayer. Team Slayer Pro isn't "Team Slayer". It's a custom game variant of Team Slayer. Just like now "MLG" is a custom game variant of Team Slayer. Slayer Pro and MLG are both competitive variants but they aren't how Halo was originally setup. I've seen this countless times "Bungie 'noobed' up H3". Well, no, not really. None of the Halo games by default were ever made with much of a competitive appeal. It wasn't until other people started doing their own 'custom game variants' that a "more competitive" style of Halo was fashioned.

So before whats-his-face throws another hissy fit about how this is all terribly interesting and terribly off-topic, I'll get to my long drawn out point. Bungie has always and probably will always create their default game and gameplay in a fashion that isn't terribly "competitive". Where Bungie has always excelled in is the fact that they allow players the ability to make gametype variants that are either "more competitive" or "more casual" (Rockets on Chiron anyone?). It was this way in HCE with various weapon starts on default FFA Slayer and default Team Slayer. Bungie attempted to balance the playing field in default Team Slayer by instituting a 'kill-penalty'. In H2, they made the default starting weapon the SMG. In H3, they made the starting weapon the AR. They also removed or toned down other weaponry in order to create balance which others view as making the game less competitive. Again, the Halo series has never really been that competitive in the first place. So in H3, in order to better advocate weapons balance they put on the Battle Rifle something they have been using to balance weapons for a long time: bullet spread.

Now going back to a couple previous posts about realism. We know that Halo is a Sci-Fi FPS. We aren't delusional. We also know that Bungie can make the weapons behave any damn way they want. They could make the shotgun fire as accurate as the sniper rifle. They don't. Traditionally Bungie has used gameplay mechanics that mimic 'realism' in order to balance weapons. In HCE the M6D fired erratically if you held down the trigger and fired accurately if the trigger was pulsed. In H3 the Assault Rifle fires erratically if you hold down the trigger and fires more accurately if the trigger is pulsed. The shotgun in all the games has a very limited range of effectiveness. As I mentioned before, there are shotguns that are used today that are deadly accurate at moderate distances (80-100 yrds). With the shotgun Bungie added a gameplay mechanic for the sake of weapons balance and made it take the form of something that mimics 'realism'. And yet people didn't rise up in the streets and demand that Bungie stop bringing 'realism' into a Sci-Fi FPS when any of those mechanics were used in the past or in H3. It wasn't until Bungie brought that balancing mechanic to one specific weapon. So to me, it seems that people don't mind a little realism mingling with their Sci-Fi FPS, it just can't be with a weapon they personally like or have a high opinion about. That's awfully naive if you ask me. If you're best reason for wanting the BR spread out of H3 is that you don't want a 'realism' aspect affecting your Sci-Fi FPS; you better be mentioning the removal of the bullet spread from the Assault Rifle, shotgun, and mauler; the recoil of the SMG; and the overheating of the plasma pistol, plasma rifle, and beam rifle. If your best reason for wanting the BR spread out o H3 is that you feel it makes H3 non-competitive you better realize that they was Bungie has ALWAYS set up Halo by default was never a very competitive way. They gave others the ability to make it more competitive if that's how they wanted to play it. Default Halo has always been "casual friendly" with the ability to make it more competitive if you want. H3 is no different. And while you can't adjust the BR spread in order to make the gun preform exactly how you want you can up damage to 110% so that the random bullet spread plays less of a factor.

So in conclusion (get those "tl;dr" ready) the bullet spread on the H3 BR is fine and is obviously working as intended by Bungie. Whether or not you think "intended" means a consistent 4-shot at 14WUs is your own opinion. Whether or not you think "not broken" means that at medium distances you might have to shoot 4 or 5 or 6 times is your own opinion. Post those all you want because all I have to do in order to "counter" your opinion is to voice my own. We can go through that all day and get nothing accomplished which is pretty much the purpose of this thread.

~B.B.

  • 07.12.2008 10:55 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
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Posted by: Shakespeare212
It's like blaming a lost basketball game on the ref - only Halo 3 is an arena that can't be anything other than neutral because it applys the same rules to all players. As long as that's the case, the question of how the BR should behave at specific ranges are simply matters of personal opinion.


"It's not enough to speak, but to speak true."

Very good post. I concur.

~B.B.

  • 07.12.2008 10:59 PM PDT
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The BR on lan is the way its made to play not yellow bar or a poor green bar connection when bullet spread with lag does not equal good.

  • 07.12.2008 11:18 PM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage

That's what this is all boiling down to. People are upset with Bungie because they feel that the random bullet spread in the H3 BR doesn't promote competitive play. It may or may not according to your own opinion. What doesn't change is the fact that Bungie HAS NEVER made the default game to appeal to the competitive style. That was the case in HCE. That was the case in H2. That was the case in H3. What Bungie has done and continues to do is to allow players the ability to mold and shape gameplay variants in order to allow the player to play how they want to play. It doesn't change the fact that Bungie has an intended way that may or may not be different.



Yup. Hit it right on the head. Even if you assume that Halo CE lent itself better to so-called "competitive" play (which I don't), then it was a side benefit only. It doesn't mean the Bungie decided to sell out and "noobify" the game to sell more copies.

It also doesn't change the fact that the competitive community is a small minority compared to the Halo community at large. In fact most Halo fans hadn't even heard of them before Bungie gave them a playlist. The fact that Bungie was kind enough to recognize them was a priviledge, not a right. It certainly doesn't mean they're owed anything.

A developer like Bungie, which has always had an exemplery record of going above and beyond when it comes to supporting its community, has no responsibility to dignify rants about how their game is "broken" with a response.

[Edited on 07.12.2008 11:56 PM PDT]

  • 07.12.2008 11:55 PM PDT

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Posted by: Shakespeare212

Maybe the BR does operate outside it's original intended design, maybe it doesn't - but it's largely irrelevant to the point I'm making. You're right that a basketball player doesn't have to worry about the hoop moving randomly, but a good ballplayer also knows not to take a shot at a time when he's flatfooted or his footwork is off because he's off-balance, and that lessens the amount of control he'll have over his shot, thus introducing an element of randomness. Sometimes that same ballplayer may make a choice to take the shot anyway under those conditions, and sometimes he may be forced to by game events, but these are conditions that occur naturally in the game - the manner in which a player chooses to handle them, including the decision to proceed with a course of action under circumstances they cannot control, are strategic decisions.

The point is, the fact that conditions exist in Halo 3 under which you can choose to engage an opponent and have the outcome be subject to a certain degree of randomness or "luck" (assuming you can even prove that the amount of "luck" involved significantly alters the ultimate outcome of a BR battle - which you can't, because that's a subjective argument and can't be proven either way), is not conclusive evidence that Halo 3 promotes unfair or uneven competition.

Now what might be a viable argument for your side would be raising the question of whether or not the interaction between map size and the 14 world unit range somehow forces more "randomized" BR battles. Perhaps your efforts would be more effectively spent arguing that point, rather than arbitrarily declaring my arguments "moot and useless."

Sorry if that last bit was unnecessarily snarky, but trying to sneak provoking comments in like you did really is poor form if you truly are striving for a more professional level of debate here, not to mention, again a subjective opinion.


Sorry I wasn't trying to provoke you. I was simply stating that the point you made about Halo's appearent competitve nature means nothing in a world where luck comes into play. Which, again, in your basketball argument a good player knows exactly when and where to place his feet. A good player can observe opposing team movements and predetermine what the best course of action is. This environment promotes a player who has prepared himself through practice.

When using the BR at a high level of skill NO amount of practice will ever be able to account for that random bullet when you're facing an opponent of the same skill level. These things have nothing to do with strategy. they simply mean that when facing a lone opponent, by yourself, when all other things are equal, including your skill levels, the winner is determined by a randomly selected number. This number is based on the luck of the draw, and if you're an unlucky player you find yourself on the loosing end a few too many times although you deserved just as much a chance at the kill as the other player. If the BR spread were "un-randomized", not sure if that's even a word, then it would eliminate all luck and award the player who presumably had the better aim.

When someone throws a lucky grenade that I just happen to walk on. That is luck determined by the player. When somebody shoots a randomly lucky bullet that happens to kill me faster than deserved, that is luck determined by the computer. One I can live with, and I accept these things happen. The other is an unfair circumstance that should not be included in a competitve game environment. The skill of the player should be rewarded, not how lucky one can get.

The amount of luck involved is determined by a computer selecting a number from seemingly infinite possibilities. There are maximums that have been defined, and within the intended effective range of the BR it's about a 51-49% chance. It doesn't significantly effect one single battle. but when you compound the numbers over billions of encounters in millions of games, and think about 51% of the time the BR was accurate at a range greater than it was ever intended to be that's a lot of lucky MF'ers if you ask me. In a game that is based around a rank system that supposedly promotes the skilled player, it can very quickly effect the outcome of one game, or even an entire session of online play for one player.

Just for reference, 7 WU is about the distance from Snipe tower 3 guardian to the middle of Top Mid guardian. One can assume that 14 WU then would be about the distance accross Top Mid guardian. so from Snipe 2 to Yellow 2, but I'll qualify that by saying standing in the door of yellow 2, not near the lift, that would probably exceed the intended distance.

Again sorry I did not mean to be "unnecessarily snarky", or to provoke you.

  • 07.13.2008 12:16 AM PDT
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i have a quick question what real life gun is the br based off of

  • 07.13.2008 12:25 AM PDT
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I think BerserkerBarage has won. The BR argument is over.

  • 07.13.2008 12:49 AM PDT

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Posted by: Shakespeare212
Posted by: BerserkerBarage

That's what this is all boiling down to. People are upset with Bungie because they feel that the random bullet spread in the H3 BR doesn't promote competitive play. It may or may not according to your own opinion. What doesn't change is the fact that Bungie HAS NEVER made the default game to appeal to the competitive style. That was the case in HCE. That was the case in H2. That was the case in H3. What Bungie has done and continues to do is to allow players the ability to mold and shape gameplay variants in order to allow the player to play how they want to play. It doesn't change the fact that Bungie has an intended way that may or may not be different.



Yup. Hit it right on the head. Even if you assume that Halo CE lent itself better to so-called "competitive" play (which I don't), then it was a side benefit only. It doesn't mean the Bungie decided to sell out and "noobify" the game to sell more copies.

It also doesn't change the fact that the competitive community is a small minority compared to the Halo community at large. In fact most Halo fans hadn't even heard of them before Bungie gave them a playlist. The fact that Bungie was kind enough to recognize them was a priviledge, not a right. It certainly doesn't mean they're owed anything.

A developer like Bungie, which has always had an exemplery record of going above and beyond when it comes to supporting its community, has no responsibility to dignify rants about how their game is "broken" with a response.


I'd like to make a broad sweeping statement right now and clear something up for you and that other guy who refuses to acknowledge my existance, which is fine.

Weather you like it or not...It's a fact.....are you ready for this one....


COMPETITIVE GAMING MADE THE GAMING INDUSTRY. WITHOUT HARDCORE COMPETITIVE GAMERS VIDEO GAMES WOULD HAVE BEEN A FAD, AND WOULD BE A DISTANT MEMORY.

This is fact. People said, in 1989, when Mario Bros. was release with the brand new NES that gaming was a fad and would fade away just like bellbottoms. But it didn't because people played legend of Zelda, and people played Punch Out, and people played Galaga, Space Invaders, etc. etc. etc. Do you think these people were fathers, mothers, 4 year olds, or 45 year old buisnessmen?!? Hell no they weren't. These were hardcore late teenagers into their twenties. They made the game industry, and arguably, they made the Halo franchise what it has become. HCE was pronounced, by more than just MLG, to be the most competitve FPS game to date, when it came out. The hardcore community LOVED Halo C.E., and weather you like it or not the casual community follows the hardcore community, not the other way around. Hardcore gamers don't follow casual gamers to play Wii baseball. Hardcore gamers find games like UT3 and they latch onto it untill it's spent. The casual community followed the hardcore community to Halo, by this logic HCE may not have been originally designed to come out this way, but it was definitely geared more towards the competitive crowd. H2 was much less so, and H3, well we know where we are now. Kids who aren't any better than a Luitenant are boosting, and host booting, and straight up buying level 50 accounts from people who earn them. The community surrounding Halo 3 has even disowned this supposed level of "high achievement" because of these fakes out there who put more weight on the rank itself than the skill of the player.

Main point being HCE geared much more towards the hardcore community than H2, or H3.

Back to the discussion at hand...

The BR spread, weather you want to acknowledge it or not, was originally intended to be effective at a range of 14 WU. I'm not talking about the H2 Br. I'm talking about what has been said about the H3 BR so far in the posts that Bungie HAS acknowledged. This is a matter of FACT not opinion. It was never intended to be effective at a higher range. The random bullet spread DOES promote an atmosphere of luck, as opposed to skill, which from what I said above should be well established now as the original intended direction for Halo as a Franchise. Weather it's competitve gaming in MLG, or just competitive gaming In Matchmaking...IT'S STILL MEANT TO BE COMPETITIVE! What part of that is so hard to understand. Competition is rewarded by skill, or it should be. In this case the competitors are rewarded, no matter how much they compensate, by a random number generator. Which by definition you cannot compensate for something that is "random". When you have an element of gameplay that cannot be prepared for, and cannot be compensated for by a skilled player, you no longer have a very skillful game. The problem with the BR has created an online play experience where the less skilled player is rewarded equally as a higher skilled player.

This makes it almost equal to the CoD4 prestiege system, which I abhore. It promotes you weather you win or lose. The Halo 3 system, with the BR in mind, is getting pretty close to that.

I think sprool should reserve his comments untill this is truly concluded. In other words it ain't over 'till the fat lady sings buddy.


EDIT:

Just to back up my statements about hardcore gaming EGM, or electronic gaming monthly, did a piece in their most recent installment about the appearent decline of games on the shelf. What was actually concluded, however, was that developers were making more casual titles, rather than hardcore titles than ever before. The chart shown in the piece only goes back to 2002, but Halo C.E. was released 11-15-2001. If I could find a link to the story I would, but as you can see developers were still developing for the hardcore community back then, not the casual community. Therefore HCE designed in a time when the hardcore gamer ruled all.

[Edited on 07.13.2008 1:14 AM PDT]

  • 07.13.2008 12:55 AM PDT

In my opinion the Br is one of the best weapons introduced to the halo series

  • 07.13.2008 12:56 AM PDT

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Posted by: BerserkerBarage
the bullet spread on the H3 BR is fine and is obviously working as intended by Bungie. Whether or not you think "intended" means a consistent 4-shot at 14WUs is your own opinion. Whether or not you think "not broken" means that at medium distances you might have to shoot 4 or 5 or 6 times is your own opinion.

~B.B.


No actually it's not working as Bungie intended it to work. Because if it were then there would be no way that I could have seen multiple bungie employees saying that the BR is a "medium ranged weapon", and there's no way that, as WU's were explained to me, 14 is "medium range", and there no way that 7 WU is the longest effective range of the BR.

If the BR is really working the way they intended it to work then these things I've just stated can't possibly be true because they contradict everything about that statement. These are FACT. They have been tested. These are not my opinion.

  • 07.13.2008 1:06 AM PDT
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I like it. Its not to dissilmilar with the H2 BR.

  • 07.13.2008 2:09 AM PDT

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Posted by: DarthBanshee
I like it. Its not to dissilmilar with the H2 BR.


Actually....You're right. The H3 BR is not too far removed from the H2 BR. The only differences are the hitscan ability in H2, and the consistent bullet spread.

  • 07.13.2008 2:37 AM PDT

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Just so you guys know what I'm talking about when I say these things have been tested....

Vapor Test w/Cones for distance reference
This test was conducted by the, now, infamous Dan91. He used the cones to demonstrate that the medium range weapon that the BR was intended/designed to be, is not what it actually is. 7-8 cones is approximately 10-15 WUs.

This is how the battle rifle is supposed to work at the distances in the video above.

This video was made by MLG staffers to show the obvious. How the battle rifle is supposed to work. If you notice the shooting is done from close range for guaranteed efficacy. As opposed to the previous video which shows the intended effective range, and how poorly it performs. Halfway accross an empty foundry is about as far as the BR should be effective, but as you can plainly see this is not the case. Let me phrase that for the people who think that's my opinion. Halfway accross foundry is approximately 14-15 world units, or medium distance. Since the BR is a medium range weapon, as previously established, this is the range at which bungie originally intended the Halo 3 BR to perform. So not my opinion, Fact.

  • 07.13.2008 3:09 AM PDT

Sorry,im only picking up on this little debate here.
He would have got a 4 shot if he shot the body 3 times and then finished with the head.Stop complaining about random spread and get used to it.The ones who can adapt to it are going to be better than the people who just whine.

  • 07.13.2008 7:49 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Sprool
I think BerserkerBarage has won. The BR argument is over.


Sadly, I doubt many others will see it that way. I'm glad you liked what I had to say but people will always have their opinions, and I've learned that quite often those are different than mine.

~B.B.

  • 07.13.2008 8:21 AM PDT

I like the BR its is very deadly and nice.

I dont have any problems with the BR at all its one of my favorite weapons in the game i do prefer it over the AR though but thats just me.

[Edited on 07.13.2008 8:45 AM PDT]

  • 07.13.2008 8:45 AM PDT

Master of Masters

I like the BR just needs to be a little more powerful and needs to zoom in a little more but not too much because it would zoom in like a sniper so too much more zoom-in but the looks are nice on it also.And its one of my top wepon picks.

[Edited on 07.13.2008 8:52 AM PDT]

  • 07.13.2008 8:51 AM PDT
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Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Posted by: Sprool
I think BerserkerBarage has won. The BR argument is over.


Sadly, I doubt many others will see it that way. I'm glad you liked what I had to say but people will always have their opinions, and I've learned that quite often those are different than mine.

~B.B.
Maybe not won, but you got a point that is very true in your essay.

  • 07.13.2008 10:21 AM PDT
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Even though Bungie has designed it they way they wanted to, it was nice to know there was a method to this madness, I poked a hole in it today, but I need to do more testing. I used C# as the language (same as Halo 3) and Microsoft Visual Studio 2008. I support Bungie, not MLG, but what's a little testing going to hurt.

I will add this to the BR thread as well, but it's so good, It has to be said out here as well.


All randoms are not created equally...
This may not be suited for the weak minded, please keep all brain cells in the ride at all times.

First, The definition of "uppers", "mids", and "lowers", in the pictures below means the amount of numbers that are "higher then 2/3", "between 1/3 and 2/3", and "lower then 1/3", respectively. Examples of a random between 0 and 100 would be this, anything lower then 33 is a low, anything higher then 66 is a high, and anything in between is a mid. Zero is no spread and 100 is most spread. This is generating 1000 numbers, and if the number is high, mid, or low. just like 1000 bullets i may say.

Secondly, I would like to let you know that having just a normal random ends up in results like this. The results are not skewed to one side. Sure, you could say right now one side has more then the other, but none of them go over 400 every time I randomize new results.
The equation used for this is... randomValue = random.Next(0, 101);
And lastly, I have figured out how to make a skewed test, by adding in a constant in with a random, and get results like this. I have tried at least 4 different equations and the all skew to the middle. I can't seem to make them skew to the lower yet. Isn't this good enough for you guys? It has the majority of it's shots in between, which makes it more consistent, but not overpowered. It still has a percentage to have a high and a low spread. I will continue working on this project here and there until I get something we all will like (maybe), and update this thread.
The equation used for this is... randomValue = random.Next(-10, 41) + random.Next(-10, 41) + 20;

The program in the pictures uses only about 13 lines of code, lol.

[Edited on 07.13.2008 10:40 AM PDT]

  • 07.13.2008 10:22 AM PDT
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  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

i still cant understand y so many people are complaining about BR spread and bullet-drop! so what? its just a game and if u dont like the BR......DONT USE IT!!!!! i mean seriously people are whinning about how they lost cause of BR spread or bullet-drop. well u lost 1 game. so what there are millions to go.... so just forget about the BR if u hate it and if u like it use it. ITS THAT SIMIPLE PEOPLE!!!!!!!

  • 07.13.2008 10:29 AM PDT

TAKHOMASAK (Killamenjaro12)

the BR is realistic. its an M16 from the future.

  • 07.13.2008 1:37 PM PDT

These are responses to Craven - sorry, too many large posts since I was last on to include quotes.

On the basketball debate: what you're ignoring is the fact that there IS a range where the BR is a hundred percent accurate. You can debate whether or not that range forces random battles within the context of certain maps, but you can't say that you can't make a strategic choice to engage or not at a range where you know it will have less accuracy or without backup, which is the same as a ballplayer choosing to shoot while flatfooted or drive the lane without another guard to pass off the ball to. Again, the fact that certain conditions can sometimes occur within a game that introduce an element or randomness, DOES NOT MEAN THE GAME IS NO LONGER FAIR OR THAT IT'S BEEN REDUCED TO LUCK ONLY.

On competitive gaming driving development: the term "competitive" as used in the context of this debate refers only to organized tournament communities like MLG, not hardcore Halo players. The competitive community, as described above IS a tiny minority and largely unimportant in the grand scheme of things... There are TONS of hardcore players who have utterly no interest in the competitive community (as described above) and have no complaints about the BR. If MLG never existed, Halo 3 still would have been the largest entertainment launch to date at the time of its release and still would have enjoyed it's ongoing success.

Also, "casual games," as mentioned to in the EGM article you reference, is referring to the kind of garbageware that has been flooding the market thanks to loose quality control policies of companies like Nintendo and EA, not Halo 3 or any of the games most of the folks on these forums are using as examples, nor does it refer to the population of regular Halo 3 players who simply aren't interested in the competitive community.

[Edited on 07.13.2008 2:02 PM PDT]

  • 07.13.2008 1:46 PM PDT

A solution is simple.

Alter YOUR strategy a bit. Use grenades to lower a persons shields then finish them with a headshot. Or perhaps you could try different weapons to suit different situations.

Alternatives:

Close Range:
Shotgun
Sword
Mauler
Grav Hammer


Med range:
Carbine (I know it may be harder to find than some others though)

Long Range:
Sniper Rifle
Beam Rifle

Heck Rockets work at multiple ranges provided that you have semi-decent aim and enough intelligence not to blow yourself up.

  • 07.13.2008 2:07 PM PDT