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  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
Subject: The Only BR Thread
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For reference, Bungie's response to all comments and complaints about the design of the Battle Rifle can be found in the weekly update for June 20th, 2008.

People expecting further Bungie responses on the issue are likely to be disappointed.

so because they completely fail to adress why the BR will kill thrue walls even when no shot is available and whenever i try and ask i can only post it in a forum that has no chance of being seen.

woot go -blam!- power lets censor the opinions of those who disagree instead of listening to peoples problems. why turn your back on the community trying to help you improve your game at no cost to you? first we do your testing on the game then we show you where you messed up and now because we complain about something you disagree with your going to ignore it gg bungie thats a great way to handle faithfull customers.

  • 07.13.2008 2:14 PM PDT
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ironic the word n a z i is censored after i was useing it as an example of why censoring is wrong.

  • 07.13.2008 2:16 PM PDT
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Aka No_Consequence

Posted by: SCOTTY OWNS U
For People Whining:

Ok, if you people actually read the entire Weekly Update you would Realize that there is a good reason for Bungie not taking your suggestions and changing back the BR. In Halo 2 the Battle Riffle Would beat out every weapon, because it is good at close range, medium range
and long range. In halo 3 the design team wanted it to be fair, because it was realized in Halo 2 that it is too good. So for halo 3 they wanted things more balanced (in my opinion). So they Gave it less power at long and short range, making it the still the best medium range weapon (my opinion).

This is What I think you should do:

For all of the people that whining they probably want the Halo 2 BR back. And those people who are whining about wanting the Halo 2 BR had to get used to the Halo 2 BR by Playing Halo 2? And Halo 2 and Halo 3 are two Different Games within the same series. You if you are Whining 7bout the BR it is your fault for switching to a new game. If you want the halo 2 BR than play halo 2. It is that simple. And Different games are meant to be different, so they will have differences, the changes in the Battle Riffle are just one of the many changes between the games in the Halo Series. And like any other new game you start playing, you aren't going to be the best at it when you start, so you just have to play Halo 3 with the Battle Riffle at Medium Range the way it is meant to be used in HALO 3, not the way it was used in halo 2. Also like in any other new game you start to play, you have to play and practice to get good at it. The same thing goes for the BR. So just get used to it and practice with it at medium range the way it it said the be used at.

Shorter Version for the People that Still Don't Understand:

The people whining got used to the halo 2 br when they played halo 2 so just get used to the halo 3 br now that you know how to use it. You guys are practically blaming Bungie for making a weapon in the game you play.

Another Argument

They people whining / complaining usually claim to be MLG. If they are MLG they should be able to get a kill with almost any weapon nonetheless. So they should also be able to get a kill with the halo 3 BR. So you are just another poser if you claim to be MLG and are still whining about the halo 3 BR because you cant get a kill with it even though you claim to be MLG.

Another Argument:

Most of the people that also whine about wanting the Halo 2 BR back also say "Bungie Never Takes Suggestions?" Haven't anybody read the Code of Conduct : You have no rights, Play nice. Theres one point of this. But Bungie actually does take suggestions such as. The melee glitch, Griffball Double Exp Weekends, Team Snipers Double Exp Weekends, Bungie.Net Avatars, Bungie.net User Skins, Bungie.net Themes. And many more things that Bungie gets from suggestions.. You guys are too busy wanting an "Ulimate Weapon". Think about that... Now that you know the facts behind the Halo 2 Br you know it is good at any range making it unbeatable. Think of Bungie's Point of View, Somebody is saying. "Can we have the Halo 2 Br back so we can an unbeatable weapon??" Think about it. Now don't tell me that it sounds a little stupid. And Yes They do take suggestions.

Posted by: Timtaztix
I don't want the BR to be accurate I want it to be consistent. Sometimes it shoots differently than an opponent's, and this makes luck a factor. Halo 3 should be about skill, not luck. Don't flame me until you've read everything.

Bungie's excuse for not "fixing" the BR is that they don't want the BR to become the all-powerful Godly weapon that it was in Halo 2.

The BR in Halo 2 was Godly because:
-Button combos
-Tight spread
-The BR was a hitscan weapon
-The BR was extremely consistent

In Halo 3, there are no button combos, there is a huge spread, it is inconsistent, and it is not a hitscan weapon. Obviously, the BR is a lot less effective now than it was in Halo 2.

Bungie apparently thinks that we request the BR to be returned to its former state from Halo 2. No Bungie, not at all. You have misunderstood what the main problem is.

The BR is ridiculously inconsistent

Leave the spread as is, just take away the random tendencies! The problem is that sometimes my BR has an accurate burst, and sometimes it has an inaccurate burst. What if I'm in a 1-on-1 BR fight, and my BR shoots randomly wider and his shoots randomly tighter. My opponent will win the fight not because of his aiming skills, but because his shot more accurately than mine. Even though my reticule was on his head, and his was on mine, I lose the fight because of the random tendencies.

So, in conclusion, I suggest that Bungie removes the random tendencies of the BR's burst. This means that:

-It will still have a wide spread
-It will still not be a hitscan weapon (You must still lead shots)
-Still no button combos
-Consistent! This is the only change...making the burst consistent. This way, the only advantage one player will have over another is skill. Luck should not be a factor in a competitive game.

This way the BR is still not accurate enough to snipe, and not accurate enough to guarantee a perfect 4-shot every time...but it will remain this way for everyone and not just the lucky will win.

If everyone's BR performs the same, every time, even if the spread isn't perfect, it is a balanced weapon. Right now the winner of a BR fight depends on lucky spread, and I want the winner to rely on skill. Not luck.

Post here if you agree with me, and be mature about it. No flaming unless you've read the entire post.


^^^^^

Argument:

In this statement the OP has all of the Halo 2 facts completely correct. But think about it, Yes, it is was completely consistent. And if that is what you are asking for in halo 3 then it would still be the Ultimate weapon. Think about it. What other weapon is completely consistent in Halo 3 Besides the Spartan Laser and Sniper Riffle (Said by Luke)? AR Bullets Fly everywhere. Needlers fly off anywhere, Rockets can be shot off by an explosion, Spikers don't lock on, Shotguns shoot multiple bullets. I really cannot think of another weapon that is completely consistent in hitting all of its shots. I also Think you may be exaggerating when you say ridiculously because if I am correct on my math and I read the many math equations correctly by JonnyOthan then only one one the 3 bullets is going to be inaccurate out of the three. You also talk about a 1 vs 1 BR duel. Think about this situation too. Once again if I am correct on reading the math equations then one out of the three bullets will not hit. So if you think about that there is a 66.7% (Rounded) change that it will be accurate and a 34.3% chance that one bullet out of the 3 will miss. That is not even a 50% chance! Which brings me to the Final facts of this argument that Only two weapons (that I'm 100% sure on) are 100% accurate. So why should the BR? This question brings us the Real Life Sniper vs the Real Life Battle Riffle. In Real life not every BR weapon is going to hit the exact target. A real life Sniper bullet will hit the exact target. So that equation is correct. So what is so what is so bad about a 34.3% chance of having 1 bullet miss when almost every other weapon will do the same or worse. The last thing in this argument, in a 1 on 1 br duel you will most likley to have the same outcome for both players.

(I know I probably got some facts wrong in there but C'mon you gotta admit that is had to argue against!)


Please Don't spam me telling me I don't know what I'm saying.

This is just my opinion on you should look at the BR changes from Halo 2 to Halo 3.


AND. That was just for the People WHINING. Honestly I like the Halo 3 BR better tahn the H2 one.

I know others have my same opinion, My top posts were for Whiners not people with my opinion.



What do you think of my opinion?

And if I have any facts wrong please tell me and I shall fix.

Discuss nicley...


READ MY ENTIRE POST, I'm not complaining.

I am not complaining, I am telling people that do complain how to deal with it and some facts and opinions behind it.
NO U!

  • 07.13.2008 2:40 PM PDT
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Personally, i agree with whatever you agree with, violently oversensitive fanbase

  • 07.13.2008 2:57 PM PDT
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i dont see anything wrong with the BR, i think it should stay the way it is.

  • 07.13.2008 3:14 PM PDT
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I was playing Halo 2 a couple weeks ago (System link with 14 other friends) and someone told me the BR in Halo 3 sucked more for its spread. I tested it out and yes, Halo 3's BR has more spread than Halo 2's, BUT Halo 2's BR was insanly accurrate for about 1.5x the distance than Halo 3's BR. So, it is different but in very small ways. Nothing much to throw your game off or anything. So STOP COMPLAINING!

  • 07.13.2008 3:41 PM PDT
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People complain about the Battle Rifle because it is not giving them unfair kills like a rocket launcher would. If the battle rifle isnt getting kills for them , its because their technique is incorrect or they're just bad with it. The battle rifle is a very effective and efficient weapon, butit's not invincible.

  • 07.13.2008 3:56 PM PDT
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Tighten the spread and hitscan,

MAKE US HAPPY PLEASE

  • 07.13.2008 3:59 PM PDT

Slayer 50 I Doubles 50 I Lone Wolves 50 I Snipes 50 I SWAT 50

Haha

Lots of people like the BR the way it is, and other completeley hate it.

I understand that not all of the complainers are bad with the BR, but if its not your best weapon, then go into Customs with your friends and get better with it.

Its funny how people blame Bungie because their BR isn't all that great.

Besides, even if Bungie went crazy and decided to change it, then people would still be complaining (all the people who like the BR),

So, Bungie could
[A] Go through all of the trouble and "fix" the BR, and still have complainers.
or
[B]Leave it the way it is.

Gee, I wonder which one they will choose.....

  • 07.13.2008 5:13 PM PDT

the BR is a realy good wepon and i dont think n-e thing iz wrong with it

  • 07.13.2008 5:20 PM PDT
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It's so funny how Bungie are treating this.


Basically, I'm going to compare how the casual gamer and the competitive gamer plays.


Casual Gamer:
Ok, let's take a scenario of Team Slayer AR on The Pit.

He spawns, doesn't communicate where he or his teammates are going, just runs straight towards the first BR at Shotgun, picks it up and moves towards Long Hall. He sees someone and shoots them 5 times PERFECTLY IN THE HEAD and kills them with the 5th shot. Now do you honestly think that he just thought it should be a FOUR SHOT or has any idea of RANDOMNESS on the BR? NO, why?

Because the casual gamer does not like this weapon because against other weapons close to mid range because it is over powered by a lot of other weapons like the AR, spiker, plasma rifle, plasma pistol and shotgun.

Competitive Gamer:
Let's take a scenario of MLG Team Slayer on The Pit.

He spawns, COMMUNICATES where he and his teammates are going and they all move according to the plan and he moves towards Long Hall. He sees someone and shoots them 5 times PERFECTLY IN THE HEAD and kills them with the 5th shot. Now do you honestly think that he just thought it should be a FOUR SHOT or has any idea of RANDOMNESS on the BR? YES, why?

Because the competitive gamer takes his game seriously and knows he should be able to rely on his weapons to kill consistently and NOT RANDOMLY and knows it is a four shot weapon when every shot is perfectly aimed.

According to the results of the equation results on the BRs shots from each burst, the weapon is RANDOM and does involve a serious amount of LUCK.

And, if Bungie want things to be "FAIR" why can the BR be totally overpowered by other weapons from it's actual EFFECTIVE RANGE which is MID-RANGE?

Who do you think relies on the BR more? Yes, I thought so, the competitive gamer.

Get real BUNGIE you BK's!

[Edited on 07.13.2008 6:17 PM PDT]

  • 07.13.2008 6:16 PM PDT
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Haha

Lots of people like the BR the way it is, and other completeley hate it.

I understand that not all of the complainers are bad with the BR, but if its not your best weapon, then go into Customs with your friends and get better with it.

Its funny how people blame Bungie because their BR isn't all that great.

Besides, even if Bungie went crazy and decided to change it, then people would still be complaining (all the people who like the BR),

So, Bungie could
[A] Go through all of the trouble and "fix" the BR, and still have complainers.
or
[B]Leave it the way it is.

Gee, I wonder which one they will choose.....


Lol, do you think people will complain if a weapon is improved? I think the people who are terrible at the game will because they won't be able to kill with the AR as much. Stupid Noobs.

  • 07.13.2008 6:19 PM PDT

Multiplayer Gameplay
Halo:CE------------------Reach--------Halo2-----------------H alo3
Campaign Experience
Reach----Halo:CE-----------------ODST-----Halo2---------Halo3

Glad that Halo 3 garbage is dead, thanks to Reach.
Unfreakenbelievable!!

Posted by: RowlandB
Haha

Lots of people like the BR the way it is, and other completeley hate it.

I understand that not all of the complainers are bad with the BR, but if its not your best weapon, then go into Customs with your friends and get better with it.

Its funny how people blame Bungie because their BR isn't all that great.

Besides, even if Bungie went crazy and decided to change it, then people would still be complaining (all the people who like the BR),

So, Bungie could
[A] Go through all of the trouble and "fix" the BR, and still have complainers.
or
[B]Leave it the way it is.

Gee, I wonder which one they will choose.....

Most of the people that are disappointed with the BR can live with it not having the same range that it used to or having to lead their shots more, and these things you can practice and get better at and I'm sure many have. The reason why the BR is upsetting people is because there are certain ranges that involve randomness, which is fact. Now, you can argue that this is a good thing and has some sort of realism to it or balances the weapons, but it creates an element in the game which determines the winner based on who had the better spread at certain ranges.

Another thing...If the BR gets a tweak or a more consistent spread, then the range of it will actually be where it's supposed to be. Right now, you can snipe people with the BR with a randomly tight spread sometimes and other times you can miss completely. So I really don't see how people would continue to "complain" as much (of course, there will still be a few who will be like, "bring back the Halo 2 BR,"). The range of the BR is controlled by the spread, not by the randomness of the spread.

  • 07.13.2008 6:32 PM PDT
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JESUS, NOBODY IS ASKING FOR THE HALO 2 BR, THEY'RE ASKING FOR A NON-RANDOM BR.

  • 07.13.2008 6:48 PM PDT

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Posted by: Shakespeare212
These are responses to Craven - sorry, too many large posts since I was last on to include quotes.

On the basketball debate: what you're ignoring is the fact that there IS a range where the BR is a hundred percent accurate. You can debate whether or not that range forces random battles within the context of certain maps, but you can't say that you can't make a strategic choice to engage or not at a range where you know it will have less accuracy or without backup, which is the same as a ballplayer choosing to shoot while flatfooted or drive the lane without another guard to pass off the ball to. Again, the fact that certain conditions can sometimes occur within a game that introduce an element or randomness, DOES NOT MEAN THE GAME IS NO LONGER FAIR OR THAT IT'S BEEN REDUCED TO LUCK ONLY.

On competitive gaming driving development: the term "competitive" as used in the context of this debate refers only to organized tournament communities like MLG, not hardcore Halo players. The competitive community, as described above IS a tiny minority and largely unimportant in the grand scheme of things... There are TONS of hardcore players who have utterly no interest in the competitive community (as described above) and have no complaints about the BR. If MLG never existed, Halo 3 still would have been the largest entertainment launch to date at the time of its release and still would have enjoyed it's ongoing success.

Also, "casual games," as mentioned to in the EGM article you reference, is referring to the kind of garbageware that has been flooding the market thanks to loose quality control policies of companies like Nintendo and EA, not Halo 3 or any of the games most of the folks on these forums are using as examples, nor does it refer to the population of regular Halo 3 players who simply aren't interested in the competitive community.


I'm not ignoring the 100% accurate range. In fact I've said many times that the range at which it is 100% accurate is refered to as "close" range. Whereas it was intended/designed to be 100% consistent, not necessarily accurate that is up to the player, but consistent at twice the distance it is right now or "medium" range. If you'd like I will compile some data to back up my claims in this department. It will take me a couple days to dig it all up though. I come back to work on Thursday night at 11 P.M. and I work through sun. I say this because I only have interenet at work. When I get back to work Thursday I'll start compiling everything.

Arguably, meaning this is based on opinion, the majority of the "hardcore" gamers crowd IS more into competition. In fact if I were to take a stab at numbers (randomly picked out of my ass, but based on years and years of gaming experience), I would say that out of the "hardcore" gamers 75% of them either are interested enough to watch or play in competitive gaming. Only about 25% (or lower) play games just to play games. I doubt these numbers are very far from reality, and I wouldn't exactly call that "unimportant in the grand scheme of things". I would also be careful of generalizations if I were you. I know plenty of hardcore gamers that have no interest in competitive gaming that DO have quite a beef with the BR in Halo 3. Please don't think this has anything to do with the fact that they know me either, because the only reason I even bother to debate this issue is because I believe one side is treated rather unfairly, has a very valid point that needs to be finally adressed with a logical answer. And like I said before MLG and the competitve gaming community as a whole (there are more leagues out there), arguably, {u}made{/u} Halo what it is today. Without the immense interest in HCE the casual crowd may never have even looked into the game. Then there never would have been hype about Halo 2, or there may never have even been a Halo 2 much less Halo 3 to even speak of. So logically speaking without the "hardcore" crowd, which is most likely a majority competitive type players, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Well no actually what the article is about is the way the gaming industry is much more competitve in the realm of "triple-A", or "hardcore" titles. It's also talking about the increase in development cost which has driven some companies out of the race with big names like Activision, Rockstar, EA, Bungie, etc., and driven them to develop more casual titles that cost far less to develop. It talks about the days when PS1 games cost a little under $1 million to develop, then PS2/Xbox titles bumped that up to $5 million, and now today (they didn't give a number) major titles are so expensive to develop that if you don't already have a blockbuster on your hands then there is litterally no room for error. One game that bombs could bring down an entire company. That last part seems interestingly important to the discussion at hand. I'm pretty sure Bungie has plans to make an entire new series of games, but if a majority of their hardcore competitive audience is lost because of Halo 3, and it's faults (they do go beyond the BR folks) then will the next game do well enough to warrant an entire series of games based on it?

Look this debate was never about my opinion, or anyone elses. That is why I would appreciate those who are only going to share their opinions finding another thread to post them in. The facts as I've stated them so far are...

1) BR is/was designed to be a mid range weapon.
2) BR is not performing consistently at this range, and in fact is only consistent at close range
3) This inconsistency does not promote competition, and leans more towards luck than skill.

These 3 things are not my opinion these are fact 1 was stated by bungie, 2 has been tested, over and over again, and 3 is a logical conclusion drawn from the definition of both competition, and skill the way they coincide, and the nature of the game we play called Halo. If you think it's my opinion that Halo was intended to be a competitive game, weather it's in LAN tournaments or online in Matchmaking, then let's make a vote thread and ask the community what they think. The majority of answers will come from unbiased forum goers so we can assume that the stats are correct. Which forum would that most appropriately be posted in? Optimatch or Halo 3 forum?

  • 07.13.2008 7:04 PM PDT

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Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Posted by: Sprool
I think BerserkerBarage has won. The BR argument is over.


Sadly, I doubt many others will see it that way. I'm glad you liked what I had to say but people will always have their opinions, and I've learned that quite often those are different than mine.

~B.B.


You still stick to your guns, even with glaring evidence in front of you that these things are not based on opinion, but instead based on fact. You still wish to condescend, and belittle me, and dismiss my posts as pure conjecture that I've appearently pulled out of my ass? You're not only more arrogant than I thought you're a downright -blam!-.

  • 07.13.2008 7:07 PM PDT

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Posted by: Sprool
Even though Bungie has designed it they way they wanted to, it was nice to know there was a method to this madness, I poked a hole in it today, but I need to do more testing. I used C# as the language (same as Halo 3) and Microsoft Visual Studio 2008. I support Bungie, not MLG, but what's a little testing going to hurt.

I will add this to the BR thread as well, but it's so good, It has to be said out here as well.


All randoms are not created equally...
This may not be suited for the weak minded, please keep all brain cells in the ride at all times.

First, The definition of "uppers", "mids", and "lowers", in the pictures below means the amount of numbers that are "higher then 2/3", "between 1/3 and 2/3", and "lower then 1/3", respectively. Examples of a random between 0 and 100 would be this, anything lower then 33 is a low, anything higher then 66 is a high, and anything in between is a mid. Zero is no spread and 100 is most spread. This is generating 1000 numbers, and if the number is high, mid, or low. just like 1000 bullets i may say.

Secondly, I would like to let you know that having just a normal random ends up in results like this. The results are not skewed to one side. Sure, you could say right now one side has more then the other, but none of them go over 400 every time I randomize new results.
The equation used for this is... randomValue = random.Next(0, 101);
And lastly, I have figured out how to make a skewed test, by adding in a constant in with a random, and get results like this. I have tried at least 4 different equations and the all skew to the middle. I can't seem to make them skew to the lower yet. Isn't this good enough for you guys? It has the majority of it's shots in between, which makes it more consistent, but not overpowered. It still has a percentage to have a high and a low spread. I will continue working on this project here and there until I get something we all will like (maybe), and update this thread.
The equation used for this is... randomValue = random.Next(-10, 41) + random.Next(-10, 41) + 20;

The program in the pictures uses only about 13 lines of code, lol.


That's WONDERFUL! Honestly I don't care if people prove me wrong, just do your homework and actually prove me wrong. Prove to me that what I've stated previously is wrong. This falls short though. Even if the random event of the bullet hitting/missing is a 50% chance either way, that's still 50% less than what was intended when the BR was designed. At medium range the BR is not performing like a medium ranged weapon. It is performing like a close ranged weapon. Also just because the chances are 50-50 doesn't mean I'll get that lucky. I may have numbers more like 60-40 because you see that's the real wonder of random numbers. Each individual will experience something different. Seriously though even at 50-50 this is a VERY noticeable problem. If 50% of the deserved kills in the game were taken away because of one missed bullet that's quite a bit. I doubt any of us experience numbers even that great. Most of us probably experience a 70% accurate BR. I still contend that this promotes an air of luck instead of skill, and it should not be included in a game that is centered around competitive play.

  • 07.13.2008 7:14 PM PDT

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Posted by: phantom S17
i still cant understand y so many people are complaining about BR spread and bullet-drop! so what? its just a game and if u dont like the BR......DONT USE IT!!!!! i mean seriously people are whinning about how they lost cause of BR spread or bullet-drop. well u lost 1 game. so what there are millions to go.... so just forget about the BR if u hate it and if u like it use it. ITS THAT SIMIPLE PEOPLE!!!!!!!


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  • 07.13.2008 7:16 PM PDT
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I think almost everybody can agree that they are fine with having to lead their shots.
However,
People are not fine with their weapons that they CONSISTENTLY use being INCONSISNENT.

This just has to be the best post ever.

It's so funny how Bungie are treating this.


Basically, I'm going to compare how the casual gamer and the competitive gamer plays.


Casual Gamer:
Ok, let's take a scenario of Team Slayer AR on The Pit.

He spawns, doesn't communicate where he or his teammates are going, just runs straight towards the first BR at Shotgun, picks it up and moves towards Long Hall. He sees someone and shoots them 5 times PERFECTLY IN THE HEAD and kills them with the 5th shot. Now do you honestly think that he just thought it should be a FOUR SHOT or has any idea of RANDOMNESS on the BR? NO, why?

Because the casual gamer does not like this weapon because against other weapons close to mid range because it is over powered by a lot of other weapons like the AR, spiker, plasma rifle, plasma pistol and shotgun.

Competitive Gamer:
Let's take a scenario of MLG Team Slayer on The Pit.

He spawns, COMMUNICATES where he and his teammates are going and they all move according to the plan and he moves towards Long Hall. He sees someone and shoots them 5 times PERFECTLY IN THE HEAD and kills them with the 5th shot. Now do you honestly think that he just thought it should be a FOUR SHOT or has any idea of RANDOMNESS on the BR? YES, why?

Because the competitive gamer takes his game seriously and knows he should be able to rely on his weapons to kill consistently and NOT RANDOMLY and knows it is a four shot weapon when every shot is perfectly aimed.

According to the results of the equation results on the BRs shots from each burst, the weapon is RANDOM and does involve a serious amount of LUCK.

And, if Bungie want things to be "FAIR" why can the BR be totally overpowered by other weapons from it's actual EFFECTIVE RANGE which is MID-RANGE?

Who do you think relies on the BR more? Yes, I thought so, the competitive gamer.

Sadly, I doubt many others will see it that way.

[Edited on 07.13.2008 7:18 PM PDT]

  • 07.13.2008 7:17 PM PDT

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Posted by: Darth Zunith
A solution is simple.

Alter YOUR strategy a bit. Use grenades to lower a persons shields then finish them with a headshot. Or perhaps you could try different weapons to suit different situations.

Alternatives:

Close Range:
Shotgun
Sword
Mauler
Grav Hammer


Med range:
Carbine (I know it may be harder to find than some others though)

Long Range:
Sniper Rifle
Beam Rifle

Heck Rockets work at multiple ranges provided that you have semi-decent aim and enough intelligence not to blow yourself up.



We're not really discussing strategy. This problem is occuring in an environment where all other things are equal. No grenades, no other weapons, no lag, just inconsistent BR. It's the only weapon that does not perform as it's initial design, and should be looked over.

  • 07.13.2008 7:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: CravenC21h30o2
That's WONDERFUL! Honestly I don't care if people prove me wrong, just do your homework and actually prove me wrong. Prove to me that what I've stated previously is wrong. This falls short though. Even if the random event of the bullet hitting/missing is a 50% chance either way, that's still 50% less than what was intended when the BR was designed. At medium range the BR is not performing like a medium ranged weapon. It is performing like a close ranged weapon. Also just because the chances are 50-50 doesn't mean I'll get that lucky. I may have numbers more like 60-40 because you see that's the real wonder of random numbers. Each individual will experience something different. Seriously though even at 50-50 this is a VERY noticeable problem. If 50% of the deserved kills in the game were taken away because of one missed bullet that's quite a bit. I doubt any of us experience numbers even that great. Most of us probably experience a 70% accurate BR. I still contend that this promotes an air of luck instead of skill, and it should not be included in a game that is centered around competitive play.
OK! First of all, before we go on to "range", can someone please tell me how far the SMG or AR can go before the reticule turns gray again? I'd like to know what all your opinions of "mid range" is!

Um, what are you talking about? Not trying to be rude... hit miss is probably not 50/50. Each individual will have most likely identical experiences, but not if each player has their own random generation variable.

[Edited on 07.13.2008 7:39 PM PDT]

  • 07.13.2008 7:32 PM PDT

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Posted by: RagingWithFear
It's so funny how Bungie are treating this.


Basically, I'm going to compare how the casual gamer and the competitive gamer plays.


Casual Gamer:
Ok, let's take a scenario of Team Slayer AR on The Pit.

He spawns, doesn't communicate where he or his teammates are going, just runs straight towards the first BR at Shotgun, picks it up and moves towards Long Hall. He sees someone and shoots them 5 times PERFECTLY IN THE HEAD and kills them with the 5th shot. Now do you honestly think that he just thought it should be a FOUR SHOT or has any idea of RANDOMNESS on the BR? NO, why?

Because the casual gamer does not like this weapon because against other weapons close to mid range because it is over powered by a lot of other weapons like the AR, spiker, plasma rifle, plasma pistol and shotgun.

Competitive Gamer:
Let's take a scenario of MLG Team Slayer on The Pit.

He spawns, COMMUNICATES where he and his teammates are going and they all move according to the plan and he moves towards Long Hall. He sees someone and shoots them 5 times PERFECTLY IN THE HEAD and kills them with the 5th shot. Now do you honestly think that he just thought it should be a FOUR SHOT or has any idea of RANDOMNESS on the BR? YES, why?

Because the competitive gamer takes his game seriously and knows he should be able to rely on his weapons to kill consistently and NOT RANDOMLY and knows it is a four shot weapon when every shot is perfectly aimed.

According to the results of the equation results on the BRs shots from each burst, the weapon is RANDOM and does involve a serious amount of LUCK.

And, if Bungie want things to be "FAIR" why can the BR be totally overpowered by other weapons from it's actual EFFECTIVE RANGE which is MID-RANGE?

Who do you think relies on the BR more? Yes, I thought so, the competitive gamer.

Get real BUNGIE you BK's!


The competitive gamer also would, most likely, not win that battle. If he is playing equally competitive gamers. 50% of the time his BR will be more accurate than his opponent 50% of the time his opponents will win. Is this really the margin of error that we are willing to accept as "the way it was intended to be"?

Nice post BTW.

[Edited on 07.13.2008 7:45 PM PDT]

  • 07.13.2008 7:45 PM PDT

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Posted by: Sprool
Posted by: CravenC21h30o2
That's WONDERFUL! Honestly I don't care if people prove me wrong, just do your homework and actually prove me wrong. Prove to me that what I've stated previously is wrong. This falls short though. Even if the random event of the bullet hitting/missing is a 50% chance either way, that's still 50% less than what was intended when the BR was designed. At medium range the BR is not performing like a medium ranged weapon. It is performing like a close ranged weapon. Also just because the chances are 50-50 doesn't mean I'll get that lucky. I may have numbers more like 60-40 because you see that's the real wonder of random numbers. Each individual will experience something different. Seriously though even at 50-50 this is a VERY noticeable problem. If 50% of the deserved kills in the game were taken away because of one missed bullet that's quite a bit. I doubt any of us experience numbers even that great. Most of us probably experience a 70% accurate BR. I still contend that this promotes an air of luck instead of skill, and it should not be included in a game that is centered around competitive play.
OK! First of all, before we go on to "range", can someone please tell me how far the SMG or AR can go before the reticule turns gray again? I'd like to know what all your opinions of "mid range" is!

Um, what are you talking about? Not trying to be rude... hit miss is probably not 50/50. Each individual will have most likely identical experiences, but not if each player has their own random generation variable.


"close" range is about 7 World Units. This was related to me as about the distance from Snipe 3 guardian to Top Mid guardian. "mid" range is about halfway accross foundry, when it's empty.

There is an example of this in a video link I posted, but HERE it is again.

The smg and AR were designed to be close range weapons, but do sometimes operate outside of their intended ranges because of....drum roll.....random bullet spread.

You see the difference that people will overlook when comparing these weapons is that the BR is a precice tactical tool. The AR and SMG are weapons designed to put shots on somebody, basically. Although headshots are possible with both they are really not the intended use of these weapons. Just like you wouldn't use an UZI, or any other sub-machine gun to shoot someone in the head accurately. You would use and assault rifle like an M-16, or an AK-47. These two weapons are designed for accuracy, when used in the one-shot, and semi-auto settings. That is why weapons of this type are prefered by most military forces around the world.

BTW I'm not speaking of my opinion on "mid-range" I'm speaking about the actual calculations someone did. I'll have to dig to find the post about it though.


[Edited on 07.13.2008 7:56 PM PDT]

  • 07.13.2008 7:55 PM PDT
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Ahhh yeah, we just have to realise that Bungie aren't going to take LUCK out of the BR.


IN MY OPINION (Now Bungie, don't ban me for this, I clearly stated IN MY OPINION) Bungie are too lazy to do this update, unless there is a reward and the reward for them is money and according to them they have to update all the playlists and can't just update one so basically charging people for the update is not going to work because they have to update every playlist and there won't be many people buying the update for the BR so they can play.

Basically what I'm saying.
BUNGIE+MONEY=PATCH
BUNGIE+NO MONEY=NO PATCH.
BUNGIE+NO PATCH=NO MONEY

  • 07.13.2008 8:08 PM PDT

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Posted by: RagingWithFear
Ahhh yeah, we just have to realise that Bungie aren't going to take LUCK out of the BR.


IN MY OPINION (Now Bungie, don't ban me for this, I clearly stated IN MY OPINION) Bungie are too lazy to do this update, unless there is a reward and the reward for them is money and according to them they have to update all the playlists and can't just update one so basically charging people for the update is not going to work because they have to update every playlist and there won't be many people buying the update for the BR so they can play.

Basically what I'm saying.
BUNGIE+MONEY=PATCH
BUNGIE+NO MONEY=NO PATCH.
BUNGIE+NO PATCH=NO MONEY


That's a good way to put it, but I don't really think it's all about them being lazy. After all they are developing their next game as we speak. This kind of update would delay this project for a couple months at least.

  • 07.13.2008 8:33 PM PDT