Halo 3 Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: The Only BR Thread
  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
Subject: The Only BR Thread
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

dude whicheva weapon ya use if not da BR is ur problem so who r ya 2 say ne tin now if dey cnt use da BR or ne tin else efficiently den dnt fukin go on da battlefield n instead ride around in a fukin warthhog all day.

  • 07.17.2008 7:42 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

The M6D was INSANELY unbalanced. I've said it. Bungie has said it. I cannot believe this idea is still on the table.

So you want an all-around that has no counterpart unless you go within a specific range? Well that makes it so that weapon encroaches on the roles of all weapons. When I had the pistol in HCE all I had to do was stay outside of 5 ft and within 100 ft and I could win all day long. The M6D could kill in less than 3 seconds, had an ridiculously fast rate of fire, a moderate size reticule, could reload quickly, and could could carry tons of ammo.

You know what. I'm not going to explain it. I don't need to. It has constantly been shown and said to be unbalanced. No need to rehash it.

And I understand that you want an unbalanced weapon in H3. A lot of people have been saying that. They don't like the fact that the weapon has become balanced and that is essentially what the spread has done to the BR. And that's exactly why they are complaining.

~B.B.

  • 07.17.2008 8:10 PM PDT

Posted by: C Dirty 4
Reach essentially has put the "I" in "Team".


Remember, the enemy's gate is down

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
The M6D was INSANELY unbalanced. I've said it. Bungie has said it. I cannot believe this idea is still on the table.

So you want an all-around that has no counterpart unless you go within a specific range? Well that makes it so that weapon encroaches on the roles of all weapons. When I had the pistol in HCE all I had to do was stay outside of 5 ft and within 100 ft and I could win all day long. The M6D could kill in less than 3 seconds, had an ridiculously fast rate of fire, a moderate size reticule, could reload quickly, and could could carry tons of ammo.

You know what. I'm not going to explain it. I don't need to. It has constantly been shown and said to be unbalanced. No need to rehash it.

And I understand that you want an unbalanced weapon in H3. A lot of people have been saying that. They don't like the fact that the weapon has become balanced and that is essentially what the spread has done to the BR. And that's exactly why they are complaining.

~B.B.


Obv the M6D was overpowered, but the thing is, is that they didn't really fix it. The BR is essentially the same thing. Actually, IMO, the Halo2 BR was worse. The only actual legitimate counter it had were power weapons. And the Halo3 BR is still quite effective in close range. That was the one hindrance the M6D had. The plasma rifle, AR, and overpowered shotgun were three weapons that wrecked that thing up close. The Halo2 BR had its glitches which actually made it a very useful up close weapon, and the melee+headshot with the Halo3 BR is not that hard. They both were the main mid-range weapons in their respective games, the BR is a better CQB weapon, and the M6D had more range. The Halo2 BR had incredible range also unless you were playing Live off-host. So to say the spread has balanced the BR......not really. Its still by far the best weapon in this game. Actually, the only thing people seem to complain about is BR v BR battles. I don't see many people complaining about not being able to use the BR against the other weapons in the game, because honestly, they'd be stupid to.

Just look at games where you started with an M6D, and games you start with a BR. Both games result in using those weapons until you find a power weapon to control for a few minutes, then going back to your trusty well rounded mid-range weapon.



[Edited on 07.17.2008 8:36 PM PDT]

  • 07.17.2008 8:35 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
The M6D was INSANELY unbalanced. I've said it. Bungie has said it. I cannot believe this idea is still on the table.

So you want an all-around that has no counterpart unless you go within a specific range? Well that makes it so that weapon encroaches on the roles of all weapons. When I had the pistol in HCE all I had to do was stay outside of 5 ft and within 100 ft and I could win all day long. The M6D could kill in less than 3 seconds, had an ridiculously fast rate of fire, a moderate size reticule, could reload quickly, and could could carry tons of ammo.

You know what. I'm not going to explain it. I don't need to. It has constantly been shown and said to be unbalanced. No need to rehash it.

And I understand that you want an unbalanced weapon in H3. A lot of people have been saying that. They don't like the fact that the weapon has become balanced and that is essentially what the spread has done to the BR. And that's exactly why they are complaining.

~B.B.


We all know HCE > halo 2 and halo 3.

One fact is, you spawned with the pistol, that you could defend yourself at no matter what range. Whether it be that pesky sniper at long range, or that rocket guy that is going to jump down on you.

I believe the AR is a bad spawning weapon ,it is characterized by many games. I am not saying "AR iz for NOOBZ!!!" I am saying it is not fun when the other team controls the BR's and you spawn, with an AR, without even a hope to prevent the inevitable BR on you. Now, people are going to say, "Well you lost map control, the power weapons, so thus you deserve to suffer." No, that is BS. When you spawn, you should have the chance to defend yourself as anybody else. Spawning with the BR would fix this, I don't care if you have AR secondary, as I know it has it's intended ranges also.

  • 07.17.2008 8:56 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

If you really think that the H3 BR and the M6D are anywhere near the same level of unbalance, I can't talk to you. You compared the H2 BR with the addition of cheating. I can say that the H3 BR is unbalanced when I use auto-aim mods. Both forms of cheating, and both the reasons why balance is broken. Granted the H2 BR was bad without glitches/cheating, it was a whole new monster with them.

The M6D was the worst in regards to balance. The H2 BR with the use of cheating/glitches wasn't far off. So they balanced the weapon again in H3 controlling it's balance issues by adding a random bullet spread. Just like they had done to other weapons throughout Halo. Honestly if you got killed by an AR when you had the M6D in HCE consistently I would doubt that you played the game all that much. The Plasma Rifle and shotgun are better weapons in close range, the AR was easily beaten.

~B.B.

  • 07.17.2008 10:22 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

From reading the forum I have noticed that many people consider the Carbine or the Sniper Rifle when asking if the Battle Rifle is overpowered. One thing that needs to be considered is the Assault Rifle. An assault rifle is a mid range weapon and if it can be beaten by a common weapon at mid range in ay situation, what is the point of it? Common weapons that can beat it close range where it is incorrectly used are the Plasma Rifle and the SMG. I don't think the Battle Rifle needs to be changed, I think the Assault Rifle needs at least more range and more power. After all the 7.62 (.308) is a round commonly used in current sniper rifles and is considered by some to be the best sniper rifle round in the world. Doesn't the assault rifle that fires it deserve a little more than being able to be easily beaten by anything?

  • 07.17.2008 10:41 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Scotty, truly I think you're right. All the people that are whining about the difference in the br's... the only thing that should be changed in my opinion and obviously yours is the consistency. I believe that if you're shooting someone in the head then all the bullets should hit them in the head. That way there is less luck and more skill. I'm not saying that I'm an MLG player or any of that. All I would like bungie to do is to "fix" the consistency of the battle rifle. overall, there is a good change from halo 2 to halo 3 in the br because i like you said it's not the almighty weapon that no one can come near. There are weapons for all ranges, close medium and long and everything in between. This is also bungie's game, if you don't like it then don't play it. If you like the battle rifles in halo 2 more and that's enough to make you get really ticked or continue whining then just go back to halo 2. People, if there was a "God weapon" than the game wouldn't be near as fair, or as based on skill and timing.

these are my opinions and if you don't like them than I'm sorry, don't read it. Either way you want to look at it, bungie shouldn't adjust the br because of whining people wanting to be able to bxr, multi shot and all that. those were glitches, and in halo 3 they've been fixed.

  • 07.17.2008 10:53 PM PDT

If you're interested in recruiting (or being recruited), for matchmaking or gamebattles, please join my group. If you do decide to join please tell all your friends. Thanks in advance.
Greatest game ever.
Ranked Perfection

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Posted by: CravenC21h30o2
[...]but nearly every gamer that plays online does so to compete in some fashion.


Bull--blam!-.

~B.B.


I come back to work today to find this is the only response to a page of posts? How lazy. Seriously though you think that's bull-blam!-? Wow. I'm not sure if it's ignorance or what, but I would venture a guess at 60% easily play games online solely based on competing with others. Now since that number is not based on any tangible numbers I'll drop it, but your answer is just lazy. I was commenting on the EGM article I believe, but since you're taking my words out of context I really can't tell.

  • 07.18.2008 12:52 AM PDT

If you're interested in recruiting (or being recruited), for matchmaking or gamebattles, please join my group. If you do decide to join please tell all your friends. Thanks in advance.
Greatest game ever.
Ranked Perfection

Posted by: Darth Zunith
Posted by: RagingWithFear
i like the game so im fine with all of it
Yeah but you're a commander grade three and don't really think about the mechanics of the BR while playing.


Bringing someones rank into the argument makes you lose your credibility.


Not in this case it doesn't. The point he's making is that someone who really doesn't care to game competitively, most of the time, doesn't really care about the inner workings of the BR, or any other weapon for that matter.

  • 07.18.2008 12:54 AM PDT

If you're interested in recruiting (or being recruited), for matchmaking or gamebattles, please join my group. If you do decide to join please tell all your friends. Thanks in advance.
Greatest game ever.
Ranked Perfection

Posted by: Axel NLD
Netcode is behind the problem with the BR. it isnt the spread.
the netcode on Halo 3 has some kinde of design flaw, that makes bullets magically disappear from your gun.

http://gameroom.mlgpro.com/view/uJoCsNjeAEY.html

look at that video and then the ammo counter in particular.
the BR spread isnt in effect at that range. there are two people in the game, the person firing is off-host, and somehow is packets get lost or dont register. then the host notices a bullet is missing from the BR burst, and refunds it by saying: bullet 2 of 3 didnt fire, which is read by your box as: oh allright, so i was wrong about the second bullet being fired. that's fine, lets just give him his bullet back.
this is a major issue with the BR and probably all the weapons, because a netcode issue like this is universal for all weapons.

Bungie please look into this.

  • 07.18.2008 1:03 AM PDT

Multiplayer Gameplay
Halo:CE------------------Reach--------Halo2-----------------H alo3
Campaign Experience
Reach----Halo:CE-----------------ODST-----Halo2---------Halo3

Glad that Halo 3 garbage is dead, thanks to Reach.
Unfreakenbelievable!!

I don't know why I'm getting into this, and I doubt you really want to argue, but...

BerserkerBarage...

These are the weapons that were in Halo:CE
- M6D, Sniper, Rockets, AR, Plasma Rifle, Plasma Pistol, Needler, and Shotgun
Hope I didn't miss any.

Anyway, how was it not balanced. If the M6D was not able to shoot at range, then the Snipers would just sit back and have their way. The Rockets were pretty powerful. The Plasma guns were pretty much the same as they are now, except could kill easier, but they are intended to take out shields anyway. The needler was pretty close to how it is now, except was maybe a little weaker. The Shotgun was a good camp weapon just like how it is now. The only weapon that you could really argue would be the AR, because of its range, but at close range the M6D was hard to shoot so it was a good close range weapon. The AR now is a good close range weapon with a little more range.

So you had a close range power weapon, you had a midrange power weapon, and you had a long range power weapon. Then you had the M6D, which could defend against all power weapons. Then you had the AR and Plasma weapons, which were beatdown weapons. Also, don't forget that vehicles could be taken out easier by shooting at them and flipping them with grenades, so they couldn't rule the maps.

These are the only real differences I'm seeing between the 2 games. The power weapons and vehicles can dominate more, so controlling them is crucial. Long range shooting is almost pointless unless you have a Sniper or Laser. People who don't aim or aren't aiming good can run away keeping you from getting the kill that you deserved. The BR/Carbine with skill can't kill at close range, unless the shields were taken out. Grenades dominate more, since you can't just 3-shot someone before they finish you. Outsmarting opponents is more important than outshooting. I'm sure there are many more, but this is all I came up with.

I know BerserkerB will reply and come up with some well, thought-out, explanation as to why I am wrong, but this is only from what I have experienced and are only opinions. I know many have said the M6D was overpowered, but I thought it did exactly what it needed to. It could take out Snipers, it could take out vehicles, and it could take out Rockets. What other weapon do you think would be able to do one of those things. Halo:CE was a game where you went and fought right away, and you either get a kill or you die. There was no running away just because you didn't aim very well.

I think I'll end this discussion right here, and most likely won't reply to you BerserkerB unless for some reason I agree with something you said. No hard feelings though.

[Edited on 07.18.2008 1:22 AM PDT]

  • 07.18.2008 1:18 AM PDT

If you're interested in recruiting (or being recruited), for matchmaking or gamebattles, please join my group. If you do decide to join please tell all your friends. Thanks in advance.
Greatest game ever.
Ranked Perfection

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Well, if you've been playing attention, Halo was NEVER set up to be competitive. It allows you to make it that way if you so wish, but it has never been that way by default.
~B.B.


Yeah this amazingly detailed combat (see below for definition) simulator was NEVER designed by bungie to be competitive, or maybe there's another less arrogant explanation just waiting for our little straw heads to come up with......

Maybe, just maybe these were the default "settings" because these are the default settings for every FPS game ever released. The idea being to have a gametype that envelops every possible facet of gameplay in one. Multiple different weapon starts, multiple weapon setups on the map, multiple ways to feasibly play the game in one gametype. There was one problem though, this type of game is not streamlined for competitive play, therefore we should include a "kill penalty" so that this basic gametype is playable even by noobs. Does this sound like a feasible explanation? Instead of your "never meant to be competitive" bull-blam!-? Oh yeah I almost forgot....

com·bat
–verb (used with object) 1. to fight or contend against; oppose vigorously: to combat crime.
–verb (used without object) 2. to battle; contend: to combat with disease.
–noun 3. Military. active, armed fighting with enemy forces.
4. a fight, struggle, or controversy, as between two persons, teams, or ideas.

Sounds to me like every thing listed there eludes to competition in one form or another.

  • 07.18.2008 1:21 AM PDT

If you're interested in recruiting (or being recruited), for matchmaking or gamebattles, please join my group. If you do decide to join please tell all your friends. Thanks in advance.
Greatest game ever.
Ranked Perfection

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Posted by: ST CheezHead
The starting weapon should not be random. And the Br is a MAJOR staring weapon. Having a game decided by randomness just isn't right.


And yet you are unwilling to remove the bullet spread from the AR. The AR is the default starting weapon in H3 and it has random bullet spread. Games are decided by randomness all the time. Any time someone uses either the AR, shotgun, BR, or mauler, there is automatically "randomness" thrown into the game. Randomness or luck has always and will always be a part of every sporting competition and video game.

~B.B.


And you are unwilling to listen to reason. The AR "assault rifle" is a fully automatic bull-pup design that was never meant to have precision. the BR "battle rifle" is a semi-automatic assault rifle desing that is specifically intended for precision. To complain about "random bullet spread" on the AR is like complaining about "random cone flight" on the pit. I don't know where it's going to fly. It's not supposed to be precise, the BR is. So you have no point stop trying to argue this point, I've answered it twice now.

  • 07.18.2008 1:25 AM PDT

If you're interested in recruiting (or being recruited), for matchmaking or gamebattles, please join my group. If you do decide to join please tell all your friends. Thanks in advance.
Greatest game ever.
Ranked Perfection

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Posted by: TheFaze
Why would you tighten the spread on any of those weapons besides the BR? The mauler and the shotgun are supposed to have spread.


Really? Who said? And even if "they" did say, who else is not to say that a burst fire weapon at the same time shouldn't have bullet spread? I can just as easily say that the Battle Rifle absolutely should have bullet spread because it's a burst fire weapon. I can absolutely say that the BR should have spread just as easily as you can say that the shotgun or mauler should have it.

That is how they are coded into the game.

I'm aware. Bullet spread is also how the BR was coded into Halo 3.

The AR is a different story though. It works in its intended range. It even works a little outside of its intended range well. With the BR this is not the case. The BR can barely work in its intended range.

Bull--blam!-. The BR has a tremendous total effective range. You're complaining that it doesn't work as you want it to within what you view is its "intended range". Honestly now with the double melee system I feel that the AR doesn't work well within its intended range. Utilizing the AR at less than 3 WUs will almost always get you either killed or into a double melee. To use the weapon without risking death requires the AR to be used outside of it's 100% effective range. Just like the BR. If you want a 3 kill per clip (3 perfect 4-burst kills) you have to operate the weapon at 12-14 WUs (as I understand the measurements). While this means you might be more at risk of taking damage from a person using the AR, it also means you can kill them quicker and with less shots. Feel like being completely out of the ARs effective range? Be prepared to use more than 4 shots.

Honestly, you have such an elitist attitude because you think you are so right, and during this whole debate all you have done is belittle people and I'm tired of watching it. How you can think it is fair that in a 1v1 with equal skill, distance, etc, that luck is the deciding factor in who wins is beyond me.

Because it happens numerous times with numerous weapons. People get luck kills with grenades, the AR, shotgun, mauler, tons of weapons. Do people with the most "skill" always win? No, of course not. Do the Yankees win the World Series every year? No. Are they arguably the team with the most raw "skill". Probably. At least Steinbreiner would argue that. Do the New England Patriots win every Superbowl when they are arguably the most "skilled" team in the NFL? Nope, because sometimes luck combined with the skill of the other team can lead to a victory. Same thing with Chelsea FC. Same thing with Tiger Woods.

What good people/teams do is that they understand that there will ALWAYS be independent variables that are outside of their control. So they plan accordingly. They make it so they don't go into a scenario where those variables very well could be the determining factor. That's basically what the guy named Shakespeare in this thread has been trying to explain to you. You know that there is a chance outside of around 15 WUs that even with perfect aim on a stationary target you could get a 5-shot instead of a 4-shot. Either close the distance, use a grenade, or a wide variety of other things or be prepared to "roll the dice" with whether or not a random factor goes your way. It's the same way with 2 people standing 5 WUs away from each other firing shotguns at each other. You're obviously operating the weapon at a distance where the bullet spread can play a factor. If you don't want to risk whether or not you live or die based solely upon whether or not you get a good "spread" you better come up with a way to tip the scales in your favor. The same thing is very true in regards to the AR. There are many times I'll be firing at someone at a moderate distance and his clip runs dry while mine kills him with the last few bullets. Guess what, I won because of a random factor. He knew that if he continued to try to use the AR from that distance without attempting to put the battle more in his favor that he could end up losing because of the random nature of the gun.

To me, since you can no longer operate the AR inside a distance where the bullet spread is mitigated because you risk a double melee, it is no longer working at it's "intended range". Now, thanks to the melee "patch" the AR almost has to be utilized at a distance where bullet spread is a factor or you can hope that you don't get into a double melee. So it really is inherently more unfair for the AR because it's a consistent Catch-22. You either run the risk of losing because of a double melee, or you run the risk of losing because of bullet spread.

There is obviously a range where you can consistently 4-shot with the BR where bullet spread is mitigated. That is still far outside of melee range. Honestly, I believe the AR is more "broken" than the BR is.

Oh, and I could not care less about your opinion of my attitude. But thanks for the commentary.

~B.B.


It's funny the more you post the more you look strikingly like a forum troll. Your continuing purpose in this thread seems to be to piss people off who have actual grief. You pick pieces of the argument, often taken out of context, that you can attack, and leave the bits you can't. Your continued existence in this thread is nothing more than a mild nuisance. The great majority of your posts hold no water, and are completely based on opinion, a fact which many of the other posters have chosen not to attack you about, but incredibly you continue to attack them about this very thing every chance you get.

  • 07.18.2008 1:31 AM PDT

If you're interested in recruiting (or being recruited), for matchmaking or gamebattles, please join my group. If you do decide to join please tell all your friends. Thanks in advance.
Greatest game ever.
Ranked Perfection

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Posted by: TheFaze
Wow. Once again I will state what C has already said. The BR is intended to work at 14 WU, But due to the spread it is only consistent at 7 WU. You also seem to keep skimming over the fact that we don't want the spread eliminated. We want it reduced to a constant factor. Please, I would think that someone that thinks they are so intelligent like yourself would be able to read. The BR spread problem has been proven by Dan, and your opinion of him cannot ruin the credibility of the video.


And again, making the spread a constant numerical amount would do little to eliminate the problems you are complaining about. The numerics are only part of the equation. They are a scalar. Unless you are attempting to say that the BR bullet spread should be a constant numerical amount at a constant angle of deviation. Which even then could still produce considerable amount of times where the spread is still the determining factor.

Dan is operating under the assumption that his video accurately displays correct World Units. I've yet to see where "half way across empty Foundry" is considered within the BR's ideal range. You're also assuming that the person firing from halfway across Foundry has perfect aim. Since the aiming is being done by a person, and we are quite literally discussing the importance of fractions of an inch here, you CANNOT assume that when he lines up the BR in that video that it is "perfectly aimed". That part RIGHT THERE single-handedly dismisses his entire "video proof". My opinion of him has nothing to do with that. I didn't even want to argue this point since I feel me criticizing Dan's failed attempt somehow seems like I'm validating it enough to even comment. Dan has always and probably will always run a flawed example and then try to pass it off as "truth".

I ran some mock up testing rather quickly a couple days ago. From what I remember, Jon Cable indicated that the distance between Sniper 2 and Gold 2 on Guardian is around 18WUs. I set up where one player spawned at the edge of Gold 2 (right before you fall towards hammer) and I moved perpendicular to them across the middle circle. It wasn't until I got to the end of the circle almost to Sniper 2/OS that I could no longer 3x4-shot for 5 clips in a row. At this distance it is almost impossible if not impossible to see the "dot" in the reticule indicating aiming at the head even through the scope. At a distance of edge of Gold 2 to OS spawn in Sniper 2 I would occasionally get a 4-shot while mainly getting a 5-shot but I can't assume that I have "perfect aim". While I'm not quite certain the validity of claiming that at 18 WUs you can still 4-shot under the presence of human aiming, I was able to consistently 4-shot for 3 kills (1 clip) from a distance that I would definitely consider "mid-range". It wasn't until I had problems seeing the 'dot' in the scoped reticule that I started to no longer get 4-shot kills.

So, Bungie could be very much right. That "perfectly" aimed shot at 18 WUs can get you a 4-shot kill. Can a human replicate that degree of "perfectly aimed"? I'm starting to doubt that. The math run by Bungie and by other people in the community shows that it is "mathematically" possible to get a consistent 4-shot at 18WUs. Is that practical? Maybe not. However, the distance where I could still get a consistent 3x4-shot kill was still what I would consider "mid-range". So now it really comes down to personal opinion, which is really what it always has been about.

~B.B.

*edit for spelling*


There it is!!! I was wondering when you were going to slip up and admit that the BR is broken. "The math run by Bungie and by other people in the community shows that it is "mathematically" possible to get a consistent 4-shot at 18WUs. Is that practical? Maybe not. " Hmm yep sounds like you're basically conceding that the BR is opperating outside of it's intended abillity. Should it for any reason be able to 4 shot outside of medium range? No, under no circumstances should a weapon operate above it's designed specifics, at the same time we would apreciate it if it didn't operate below it's designed specifics. This is not a matter of opinion. It's simply that the BR is operating outside of what can logically be called "it's intended bounds" weather it be above or below those bounds doesn't matter. Simply by eliminating the random spread, and defining the specific mathematics you will have accomplished two things. You've succesfully given the BR it's range, meaning that anything above this range will result in more shots in order to acheive a kill, and you will make it a skill based weapon, meaning the bullet spread can be accounted for. A skilled player, who pays attention to the nuances of his weapon, will be able to tell where the all important third bullet is being placed and will know exactly where the best place is to aim. Right now with a random spread there is no one place to aim.

  • 07.18.2008 1:40 AM PDT

If you're interested in recruiting (or being recruited), for matchmaking or gamebattles, please join my group. If you do decide to join please tell all your friends. Thanks in advance.
Greatest game ever.
Ranked Perfection

Posted by: BerserkerBarage

Again, that's your opinion. I've seen people who said that the ability to change things via Forge has allowed them to create a much more competitive environment. Regardless, the so-called competitive crowd became a smaller and smaller percentage of the Community as the series has progressed.



I find it funny that a statement completely based on opinion, is prefaced with the words, "that's your opinion". I'd love to see the figures you've gathered regarding the decline in the competitive community surrounding H3. I would just like to point out that MLG's rapid increase in viewership, and direct participation, as in hundreds of teams showing up for events as apposed to 3 years ago when fewer than 100 teams even bothered, is directly linked to the release of H3.

  • 07.18.2008 1:48 AM PDT

If you're interested in recruiting (or being recruited), for matchmaking or gamebattles, please join my group. If you do decide to join please tell all your friends. Thanks in advance.
Greatest game ever.
Ranked Perfection

For the first, and most accurate bullet coming from the Battle Rifle here’s the equation:
SIN(.15)xDistance in World Units = Error margin for a given bullet at a specific range.
In the case of the Battle Rifle on Guardian, the approximate distance from Snipe 2 to Gold 2 is roughly 18 world units. Plugging those numbers into the equation yields a value of .047 world units in the absolute worst case scenario for that bullet. Since one world unit is equal to 10 feet, the variation on that bullet is 0.047 world units, or roughly half of a foot. Considering that the Spartan model is 0.75 world units (the Chief is 7 and a half feet tall) you can get a pretty good idea of what kind of variation will come from that bullet, that works out to roughly a half a foot of variation at that distance. The Chief’s helmet is approximately 0.094 world units wide, so if the shields pop, that bullet – aimed and fired accurately – under reasonable network conditions yields a kill.


For those whove asked, you know who you are, and apearently don't want to look for themselves here's a good approximation of what the intended range of the BR is. *QUALIFICATION* The portion about aiming and firing accurately makes me laugh most uproariously because it completely ignores the fact that 50% of the time under these exact circumstances, the bullet will randomly veer off to one side yielding no kill. It has nothing to do with aim, or trigger timing. It's simply random.


*EDIT*
Here is a previous topic about WU's that should help anyone who's curious as to what they are/effective ranges.

[Edited on 07.18.2008 3:35 AM PDT]

  • 07.18.2008 2:49 AM PDT

If you're interested in recruiting (or being recruited), for matchmaking or gamebattles, please join my group. If you do decide to join please tell all your friends. Thanks in advance.
Greatest game ever.
Ranked Perfection

Posted by: Jiggly Luv
I don't know why I'm getting into this, and I doubt you really want to argue, but...

BerserkerBarage...

These are the weapons that were in Halo:CE
- M6D, Sniper, Rockets, AR, Plasma Rifle, Plasma Pistol, Needler, and Shotgun
Hope I didn't miss any.

Anyway, how was it not balanced. If the M6D was not able to shoot at range, then the Snipers would just sit back and have their way. The Rockets were pretty powerful. The Plasma guns were pretty much the same as they are now, except could kill easier, but they are intended to take out shields anyway. The needler was pretty close to how it is now, except was maybe a little weaker. The Shotgun was a good camp weapon just like how it is now. The only weapon that you could really argue would be the AR, because of its range, but at close range the M6D was hard to shoot so it was a good close range weapon. The AR now is a good close range weapon with a little more range.

So you had a close range power weapon, you had a midrange power weapon, and you had a long range power weapon. Then you had the M6D, which could defend against all power weapons. Then you had the AR and Plasma weapons, which were beatdown weapons. Also, don't forget that vehicles could be taken out easier by shooting at them and flipping them with grenades, so they couldn't rule the maps.

These are the only real differences I'm seeing between the 2 games. The power weapons and vehicles can dominate more, so controlling them is crucial. Long range shooting is almost pointless unless you have a Sniper or Laser. People who don't aim or aren't aiming good can run away keeping you from getting the kill that you deserved. The BR/Carbine with skill can't kill at close range, unless the shields were taken out. Grenades dominate more, since you can't just 3-shot someone before they finish you. Outsmarting opponents is more important than outshooting. I'm sure there are many more, but this is all I came up with.

I know BerserkerB will reply and come up with some well, thought-out, explanation as to why I am wrong, but this is only from what I have experienced and are only opinions. I know many have said the M6D was overpowered, but I thought it did exactly what it needed to. It could take out Snipers, it could take out vehicles, and it could take out Rockets. What other weapon do you think would be able to do one of those things. Halo:CE was a game where you went and fought right away, and you either get a kill or you die. There was no running away just because you didn't aim very well.

I think I'll end this discussion right here, and most likely won't reply to you BerserkerB unless for some reason I agree with something you said. No hard feelings though.


These are the exact things I've been wondering about the H2 BR and it's supposed "overpowered"-ness. Does these things make the game unbalanced? No. It makes the game playable, and it make the game require more skill, which is not a bad thing.

  • 07.18.2008 3:03 AM PDT

If you're interested in recruiting (or being recruited), for matchmaking or gamebattles, please join my group. If you do decide to join please tell all your friends. Thanks in advance.
Greatest game ever.
Ranked Perfection

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
If you really think that the H3 BR and the M6D are anywhere near the same level of unbalance, I can't talk to you. You compared the H2 BR with the addition of cheating. I can say that the H3 BR is unbalanced when I use auto-aim mods. Both forms of cheating, and both the reasons why balance is broken. Granted the H2 BR was bad without glitches/cheating, it was a whole new monster with them.

The M6D was the worst in regards to balance. The H2 BR with the use of cheating/glitches wasn't far off. So they balanced the weapon again in H3 controlling it's balance issues by adding a random bullet spread. Just like they had done to other weapons throughout Halo. Honestly if you got killed by an AR when you had the M6D in HCE consistently I would doubt that you played the game all that much. The Plasma Rifle and shotgun are better weapons in close range, the AR was easily beaten.

~B.B.


And just so we're clear on this HCE/H2/H3 balanced debate, Here is a fairly relevant article by an industry expert, someone qualified by experience/time spent with insiders/time spent inside the gaming industry, critiquing Halo2 and the ways it can be fixed. Strange... I wonder what the writers would say today, not assuming anything.

  • 07.18.2008 3:44 AM PDT

If you're interested in recruiting (or being recruited), for matchmaking or gamebattles, please join my group. If you do decide to join please tell all your friends. Thanks in advance.
Greatest game ever.
Ranked Perfection

Posted by: Someguy798
If you don't have the mental capacity to read a lot, hit the back button. It's fairly complex, as I wanted to make sure all aspects of the BR functionality are taken into consideration.

Ok, so I know there are a TON of BR Threads floating around, and many offering some suggestions for a “fix. However, I don't think anyone has thought of this particular solution. I feel that this would be a very well rounded solution. It would get rid of the random-esque nature of the spread, keep the BR's role in the sandbox the same, and still allow newer players to pick up the controller and get some kills.

What I propose is, instead of having the spread of each bullet calculated within a certain range, make each bullet in a 3 shot burst have the SAME degree of error(All 1st bullets have same spread, all 2nd bullets have the same spread, etc) with the positioning AROUND the crosshair with that degree of error random.

Here's very simplistic drawing of how the spread works right show. Go MS paint!

Current System

Keep in mind the picture is just a rough idea of how each bullet's margin of error is calculated. With this system, one shot could have all bullets hit, and the same shot in the same position could have only 1-2 bullets hit. In competitive gaming, this can mean the difference between winning or losing a championship game worth lots of money.

Proposed System

With this type of spread system, the shots are CONSISTENTLY accurate or inaccurate. At a certain range, a bullet will stop hitting consistently. The amount the bullets are off from the center should make it so once the reticule turns from red to grey, the third bullet will consistently miss its target, and anything a few World Units or so away from that, will make the second stop hitting as well. This would make the battle rifle have the best accuracy at the edge of its effective range and inward. At very close ranges, weapons like the SMG and AR would beat the BR, as it should. At any distance between that and the edge of the effective range, the BR will win if aimed correctly, as it should.

After the reticule turns gray, things begin to change. The BR can still hurt quite a bit, but the third bullet misses consistently. This still prevents the BR from demolishing a person before having any chance to get away, but make it possible to get a kill in 5-6 (well aimed) shots. Think of Bungie's example of the Br system with a person at snipe 2 and gold for this scenario. At this point, leading your shots is something you need to do, also like the current system. With a BR to BR fight, it will take more shots to take down an opponent, but victory goes to the better aim, not the better spread.

At a certain distance away from the Effective Range (Whatever Bungie would deem fit), the second bullet fired would start to miss as well. Again, this still prevents a BR wielder from picking off a person from a long distance with ease. It would take 10-12 (well aimed) bursts to kill, more than enough time to find cover. As the first bullet is almost a sure fire hit, it will still be able to ping snipers at this long range.

When scoping in, the same rules apply, but since the reticule is red from a further distance, your shots would be slightly more accurate at a longer range. Since in a firefight you get scoped out, this would only apply to uninterrupted shots, where you have better aim anyways.


As for where in its ring each bullet would land, I think the system Bungie uses now to make sure all 3 bullet don't cluster in a corner would suffice.
For those who are reluctant to accept this idea, realize that even though its a different system of calculating the BR's spread, it would have near identical effects to the current BR. The BR wouldn't have any extra advantages over the way it is now, other than consistency. For example, say you were shooting a target slightly out of the BR effective range. Assume perfect aim. In the old system, you would get something like 3-1-1-2-3-2 for the kill. In this system, the same number of shots would down the person, but it would be a consistent 2-2-2-2-2-2 for the kill.

Now take a competitive gaming situation, same range, both have perfect aim. In the current situation
you might get these 2 shootouts.

3-1-2-1-3-2 – 11 bullets
2-1-1-3-1-2 – 10 bullets

Both had perfect aim, but the first person gets an extra bullet from the spread calculations, which would mean player 1 wins the shootout.

In this new setup:

2-2-2-2-2 :10 bullets
2-2-2-2-2 :10 bullets

Now both players are on par, as it should be.


Please tell me what you guys think of this system; If I explained myself carefully enough, have any holes in my logic, or should add anything. Keep in mind that this system doesn't get rid of the random aspect entirely, but enough so it would consistent for the competitive players, and
has the same end result so the casual player doesn't feel slighted.

Number Crunch

Long Range (70 world units):

Even though the first bullet would not hit the exact center of the reticule, it would be so close that the functions of pinging a sniper at long range would remain intact.

Say the first bullet's M.O.E was 0.075, and the target was 70 world units away ( almost 4 times snipe 2 to gold 2 distance, pretty far away)

The actual margin of error comes to .091 world units, which is just within the range of a spartan's HEAD, let alone the body, which is a good deal wider. Therefore, no problems with pinging a sniper with the first bullet.

Now take the second bullet. Give it a M.O.E of 0.19 ( right between the current system's range's min and max)

It would come to .23 world units, which would miss the head or body.

.If you tried to deliberately aim off to the side at this range ( to try to get both bullets to hit), you would make the first bullet miss, if aiming for the head, and sometimes miss if aiming for the body. Randomness is still present, but to a lesser extent than before.Aiming in the center is still critical.

The third bullet, if we gave it an M.O.E of 0.38, would clearly miss the body (0.46 world units actual margin of error). Trying to get this bullet to hit by deliberately mis aiming would definitely throw off the first bullet no matter what, so we're not going there ( Also my head hurts).

So the BR's bullet calculations, while different, give the same end result as before, but with consistency. You get the first bullet, enough to ping, but makes a kill difficult.

Mid Range (20 world units):

Using the same constant bullet M.O.E as in the previous example:

First bullet: 0.026 world units of error: definite headshot if aimed right.

Second bullet: 0.066 world units of error: again, headshot if aimed right.

Third bullet. 0.132 world units of error. If aimed at head, it's a miss.

To move the third bullet so you might get a headshot, you would need to move to the left or right at least 0.048 world units. Keeping in mind the 3 bullets would spread evenly throughout the crosshair, it would still miss most of the time This would throw the second bullet off as well. Therefore, aiming in the center is better off that aiming to the side, and retains the aim beats luck factor.












Here is a well put together solution to the problem at hand, that I think should be agreeable on both sides. This is actually all I've been asking for all along, but it's a more succinct view of things.

  • 07.18.2008 3:54 AM PDT

1 John 4:18

You better check your AV setup because the recticle changes from red to blue, not gray. You may be seeing every thing the wrong way. Cool Idea, but I think Bungie wants the spread to be imperfect.

  • 07.18.2008 4:09 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

AR> BR

  • 07.18.2008 8:44 AM PDT

Help me help you!

People! The BR is a gun.. no guns are perfect, they can jam, missfire and what not but what most of you people dont under stand is the the battle rifles bullets are much bigger than the AR's and you know what that means? Recoil. The BR is fires a 3-shot burst which means, the first shot will be most accurate, and the last shot being the least. Noone can predict how a gun will fire all the time thats were the randomness comes in at. Plus if an enemy is no sheild it only takes one shot to kill him and thats your first bullet.

If anyone disagrees please tell meh =] peace

  • 07.18.2008 10:36 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Jiggly Luv
I don't know why I'm getting into this, and I doubt you really want to argue, but...

BerserkerBarage...[snip]

I know BerserkerB will reply and come up with some well, thought-out, explanation as to why I am wrong, but this is only from what I have experienced and are only opinions. I know many have said the M6D was overpowered, but I thought it did exactly what it needed to. It could take out Snipers, it could take out vehicles, and it could take out Rockets. What other weapon do you think would be able to do one of those things. Halo:CE was a game where you went and fought right away, and you either get a kill or you die. There was no running away just because you didn't aim very well.

I think I'll end this discussion right here, and most likely won't reply to you BerserkerB unless for some reason I agree with something you said. No hard feelings though.


You're right. The M6D could do all those things. It was decent in close range and would really only lose to a shotty and Plasma Rifle at very close range. From my experience the AR in HCE would consistently lose to a M6D. The Plasma Rifle is probably the only other close range weapon that was worth anything because of it's "freezing" ability. Typically that operated much like the Needler does now in H3. If you catch your opponent off guard it can lead to an easy kill. However, someone who sees it in advance can easily strafe or jump rendering it useless. Anyways, I have and will always say that there were a couple weapons that could beat the M6D in close range. I'd be foolish not to. But the M6D is still better than a lot of weapons even at close range. Anyways, moving on. The rockets to me were always a close-mid range (I've operated on a 5 ranges: close; mid-close; mid; mid-far, far). In the mid-close range the rockets are the best weapon. The person is just far enough away to make sure you can consistently hit (even with the faster moving HCE rockets) but far enough away that you didn't take damage. However, from this range the Plasma Rifle and Shotgun are pretty much out of their ranges. So that leave the M6D as the #2 weapon in this range. Now you move into mid range, and the M6D is the top weapon. For me, Mid Range starts at around 35 meters as measured by the sniper scope. At this range a person can out-jump and out-strafe a rocket user while scoping with the M6D in order to land the required shots. From 35 meters till about 60 is a pretty big area. And this is the area where the M6D was able to dominate. The only thing that could possibly touch the M6D in this range was the sniper, and a good pistol user would be able to keep you out of scope meaning that if you did kill them, it was pretty much luck. Now starting at about 60 meters is what I consider mid-long range. It's at this range where the sniper and the pistol begin to pretty much equal each other out. A good sniper can take out a good M6D user and vice-versa. At far range, which is around 90 meters and outward (since the M6D's bullets disappear at 125 meters) there is nothing that can stop the sniper. However, at this far of a distance you have to be very good with the sniper because you'll have to lead shots.

So lets try to give some numerical values to the weapons at these ranges and see how they add up. Of course these values are approximates and really my opinion, so you can disagree with me on them (and people have, mostly about the rockets). We'll go with a simple scale of 1-5 (1 being lowest/worst, 5 being highest/best)

AR: Close range is a 3, MC range is a 2, Mid range is a 1, MF is a 1, Far is a 1 = 8 total (even though at mid through far range the AR has no effectiveness)

PR: CR is a 4, MC is a 3, mid range is a 1, MF is a 1, Far is a 1 = 10 total (again even though at mid through far the PR really has no effectiveness)

Shotty: CR is a 5, MC is a 4, mid range is a 1, MF is a 1, Far is a 1 = 12 total (again even though at mid through far the shotty has no effectiveness)

Sniper: CR is a 1, MC is a 1, mid range is a 3, MF is a 4, Far is a 5 = 14 total

Rockets: CR is a 2, MC is a 5, mid is a 3, MF is a 2, Far is a 1 = 13 total (even though using the rockets at close range will work, you'll pretty much die in the process, so I gave it a 2)

M6D: CR is a 3, MC is a 4, Mid is a 5, MF is a 4, Far is a 2 = 18 total (you can say that the M6D is lower at close range, but I think a 3 is fine. Again, it's my opinion on the numerics)

Now, that was really just an elaborate way of proving that the M6D was an all-around or "utility" type weapon. Which most have agreed upon. The problem with why the M6D is unbalanced is that no other weapon in HCE is an "utility" weapon. Just by the existence of an "utility" weapon makes it unbalanced. It fits many roles when all other weapons have very specific roles. Shotgun up close, sniper far away. However the M6D was at least good in all ranges (except past 125 meters) while no other weapons are. Now you'll say that the rockets and sniper are almost as usefull as the M6D. Perhaps, but the M6D also out preforms both of those when you look at rate of fire, kills per clip, shots per clip, reload time, amount of total ammo carried, etc.

So even if you disagreed with everything I had to say about the ranges and effectiveness et cetera you still consider the M6D to be an all-around or utility type weapon which makes it unbalanced in the presence of a game where all the other weapons have very defined roles.

~B.B.

While the M6D might have been a good utility weapon, the fact that it is the only one that is an utility weapon is what makes it unbalance when compared to the other weapons in HCE. That's why I personally have always considered the M6D to be unbalanced. Because it was. It was an utility weapon in a game where all other weapons had defined roles.

[Edited on 07.18.2008 11:15 AM PDT]

  • 07.18.2008 10:50 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

I less-than-three the BR.

  • 07.18.2008 11:05 AM PDT