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  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
Subject: The Only BR Thread

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Foahda
Ahhh, the time has arrived. You are missing quite a big quantifier there chief. You are taking that quote out of context and without the full quote. Tsk tsk. They said that at 18 WUs (which is roughly from Sniper 2 to Gold 2) WITH PERFECT AIM, it should yield a kill. I'll say that again since you've seemed to miss it the past couple times. WITH PERFECT AIM. I don't have perfect aim. Neither does DanBauer. Neither do you. Bungie and the math nerds already have proven that it is mathematically possible to get a consistent 4-shot kill at this distance. That's empirical, not like you know what that means since you've been misusing it thus far. Until you understand that you don't have perfect aim at this distance and pretty much no one ever will, you'll never realize why you're wrong.

The problem is, that consistent 4 shot is hindered by hit detection that plagues every burst fire or automatic gun in the game. The netcode needs to definitely be looked at for the next patch to prevent this kind of garbage.
In Halo 2, you like never got dropped shots, and even in Halo CE online, though you needed to compensate for any latency, you didn't get nearly as many dropped shots as in Halo 3. It's just ridiculous.


I agree on this point. It seems that the netcode does have some perceivable problems. Even on my end and I'm not using a router and nothing else on the connection. I do have cable/broadband so depending on how many people close to me are using their connections it could alter my connection but I have definitely seen times where hit-detection was off.

To me, this is the bigger "issue" because it seems that a lot of people are getting host that really shouldn't be and netcode suffers tremendously from it.

~B.B.

  • 07.19.2008 12:28 PM PDT

iknow i've said this before, and maybe shishka will see it, but can we increase the weighting of br starts in playlists?

  • 07.19.2008 12:42 PM PDT

Multiplayer Gameplay
Halo:CE------------------Reach--------Halo2-----------------H alo3
Campaign Experience
Reach----Halo:CE-----------------ODST-----Halo2---------Halo3

Glad that Halo 3 garbage is dead, thanks to Reach.
Unfreakenbelievable!!

Posted by: Turk3YbAstEr
iknow i've said this before, and maybe shishka will see it, but can we increase the weighting of br starts in playlists?

It seems to me that the BR starts come up enough. The bigger issue in my mind is certain maps not being BR starts. Like HC Snowbound without BR starts is complete garbage. Standoff, Isolation, Snowbound, Foundry, Last Resort, Construct, Highground, Valhala, and Sandtrap are all examples of maps that should be BR starts always. We shouldn't have to go looking for a BR just so we are able to fight back when we spawn. I mean if Bungie or AR lovers want to not have BR starts, then there needs to be more smaller maps. After a while, it gets really old having to go out of your way just to be able fight on these pretty big maps.

  • 07.19.2008 12:56 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Turk3YbAstEr
iknow i've said this before, and maybe shishka will see it, but can we increase the weighting of br starts in playlists?


I doubt they will increase them since they just recently decreased the weightings of BR-starts. In addition, Shishka has said that in the past BR-start games are vetoed more often than AR-start games. Although I can't say it won't happen, I'd be surprised if it did.

~B.B.

  • 07.19.2008 1:04 PM PDT

Ain't no thang chicken wang

Posted by: Turk3YbAstEr
iknow i've said this before, and maybe shishka will see it, but can we increase the weighting of br starts in playlists?

This isn't meant to insult BRs fanatics but seriously people constantly complain about this petty BR this and less n**b that. If you want more competitive play and tons of BRs go to MLG and quit the whining. And when you realize that competitive play means your butt is going to get smacked alot, don't start complaining that MLG is too unfair and the BR isn't accurate and more junk. You asked for it and you got it. If you were mature you would realize that in regular playlists YOU can "camp" too, YOU can go for rockets too. If you think that people that do this are n**bs and are lower than you, prove it by beating them. If you can't, stop making excuses and whining to Bungie to make it the way YOU want it. Its a game anyway.

But seriously, I'm not putting anyone down, just trying to make you understand.

  • 07.19.2008 1:53 PM PDT

I'm perfectly fine with the BR. In fact I love playing team br's on a good map. People who complain obviously gave up on it before they got used to it. I enjoy 1 on 1 br fights.

  • 07.19.2008 4:10 PM PDT
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if you dont knowhow to use it, then maybe thats why you hate it so much?

  • 07.19.2008 4:36 PM PDT
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You have got a point. i love the BR, its like the only weapon i use now
Posted by: Pk 4 Skillz1
My thoughts:

*The BR was designed with strengths and weaknesses.
*The weaknesses were added in to offset the strengths.
*It takes skill to use the BR like JonnyOThan said.
*The BR is as effective as it was designed to be.
*Bungie DOESNT have to fix the BR because it is the way they want it to be.

So, if you don't like the BR there is one real simple solution.......................Don't Use It


  • 07.19.2008 4:38 PM PDT
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The only thing that kind of jerks me is that there is a random factor to the BR spread.
If the BR was re-balanced to make an equal spread for every shot, then it would take true skill or teamwork to Out-BR someone because everyone would be on equal ground, with a random factor..well it's random and shenanigans will be called.

[Edited on 07.19.2008 8:51 PM PDT]

  • 07.19.2008 8:50 PM PDT
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"If the BR is broken....and it was meant to be broken....doesnt that mean its fixed?"-U4iX.
Fix the spread.
Not only the spread.
The whole game.

  • 07.19.2008 9:06 PM PDT

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Posted by: BerserkerBarage

~B.B.


Look it's real simple. Because you don't seem to get this at all. In a VIDEO GAME environement there is no such thing as imperfect aim when the character is standing still. How the hell can you conclude that two characters standing still in Dan's video, one shooting at the other, will have imperfect aim? That makes absolutely no sense. If my reticule is aimed at my opponents head/body or w/e, and I'm using the weapon inside it's justifiable boundaries of effectiveness. This weapon should perform to it's full potential. WHAT THIS MEANS, for your increasingly weak arguments sake, is that at 18 WU's, or medium range whichever you like, a 4sk should be the expected outcome of an encounter with an opponent standing still. DO YOU GET IT YET? I'm seriously getting tired of trying to lead the blind. I'm not taking it out of context, I could post the whole damn weekly update here and it will still say the words "should yield a kill" this is the only part you have to focus on, because in a video game environment there is no difference between "perfect aim" and the spot where my reticule is aimed. As long as I'm aimed at that spot there should be no expected deviation. This is exactly why we're debating! Because at this point in time there IS a deviation! There is no such thing as proper aim. There is no way to account for the completely random bullet spread. I'd also like to know when you tested this theory that you can consistently 4shot accross the circle of guardian, and the exact measurement of the diameter of the circle, and the exact distance apart you were from the control in this experiment you did. This would be why dan made the video he did. To show that in a controlled environment, where there is no movement, and the reticule is properly aimed at the opponent in the way suggested by even bungie themselves, the gun does not perform to specs. Here's a previous post just to HIGHLIGHT how amazingly wrong you are...
Posted by: CravenC21h30o2
Posted by: RagingWithFear
The BR is intended to be accurate; however it is not intended to be completely accurate. It is intended to work at a "medium" distance and kill in either 4 or 5 bursts. If you are closer than medium distance it can kill consistently with 4 bursts if all are aimed correctly.
Apparently that is not the case, look at video tests, matchmaking and custom games, the BR tends not to kill consistently if aimed correctly. The real question I ask though is what is "Aiming Correctly"?
Technically you can't aim "correctly" because the BR is random and don't even get started, there is so much proof that the BR is random and the equations are even done out for the randomness of the BR.

But, HOW CAN YOU AIM A RANDOM WEAPON CORRECTLY?

This is the greatest way to sum up the anti-br side of this debate... "HOW CAN YOU AIM A RANDOM WEAPON CORRECTLY?"

I'll give you a hint on where your mistake is, confidence in bungie. NEWSFLASH EVERYBODY! Bungie makes mistakes. They've admited it before. They are not perfect. The two statements made about the BR by bungie, weekly update and the separate statement that it's working properly, directly contradict each other. I'll include the examples since you obviously can't be expected to read previous posts.

EX. 1 Weekly Update:
"For the first, and most accurate bullet coming from the Battle Rifle here’s the equation:
SIN(.15)xDistance in World Units = Error margin for a given bullet at a specific range.
In the case of the Battle Rifle on Guardian, the approximate distance from Snipe 2 to Gold 2 is roughly 18 world units. Plugging those numbers into the equation yields a value of .047 world units in the absolute worst case scenario for that bullet. Since one world unit is equal to 10 feet, the variation on that bullet is 0.047 world units, or roughly half of a foot. Considering that the Spartan model is 0.75 world units (the Chief is 7 and a half feet tall) you can get a pretty good idea of what kind of variation will come from that bullet, that works out to roughly a half a foot of variation at that distance. The Chief’s helmet is approximately 0.094 world units wide, so if the shields pop, that bullet – aimed and fired accurately – under reasonable network conditions yields a kill."
Oh and nowhere in there did I read anything about "perfect aim". It says accurate, which since they designed the game to function this way, I would assume this means with the reticule aimed at the head.
EX. 2 Lukems own words:
Changing the BR's fraction of a degree spread -- just how small it is, I'll throw in the Update this week under the Waahmbulance of the week -- would as folks have pointed out here, fundamentally change the rifle's effective range. Changing the effective range on the Battle Rifle would upset the intended sandbox balance.
In the vast majority of cases -- I've seen the Elite standing still on Ghost Town video where it takes a ton of hits to kill it in SWAT -- the Battle Rifle is performing "by Design," which sounds like an uncomfortable cop out, but the Battle Rifle and its fraction of a degree spread (margin of error) is designed to have the first three bursts aimed at mass and the specific bullet assignment in the three-bullet burst has the first bullet, i.e. the tenth round in a FSK - and the killing blow - be the most accurate bullet. As accurate by the numbers as the H1 pistol and the H2 BR.
Players in general are unknowingly having problems with the Battle Rifle not because of spread, but because of bullet speed - the bullet velocity is lower (i.e., not a hitscan weapon) and also now requires players to take into account their own movement (in acquiring the target, player velocity does NOT change bullet velocity), their target's movement and that target's distance from them -- it's all a factor with Halo 3's battle rifle. The degree of error on the first bullet from the three round burst is so miniscule that in LAN conditions if a player is "one shot" or deshielded, even someone as bad as I am should be able to finish with the fourth shot.
RE: The original post that started this whole series of discussions and spawned the 40-odd some page thread that I nuked this morning with a misclick, presumed to be a professional take on the Battle Rifle and then took a quote from Tyson woefully out of context and couched an argument on it? That erroneous premise doesn't really augment the credibility of any claims about whether or not the BR is performing how consumers want it to.

Ok I will dumb it down for you, he basicly says here that 1 bullet is as accurate as the halo CE pistol and the other 2 are random.

So four shot kills are random.

Credit to the OP of this post: Endorsed

Hopefully you will understand that these things contradict themselves, contradict the performance of the BR, and contradict just about everything you're continuously saying. If it's not "define WU's for me" or "define medium range for me" then it's "perfect aim". Seriously you've brought up point after point picking tiny little things to complain about. The reality of the situation is this....

The BR has a random bullet spread. This point is not debateable at all. It is fact.

The random bullet spread is causing luck to be a factor where it should not be, which is in a competitve environment. No matter what kind of competition it is. Weather or not you think luck and competition go together is actually up to you, but it's pretty obvious by the definition of competition, and the way the game was meant to be played that we can assume that luck should not be a factor.





  • 07.19.2008 10:07 PM PDT

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Posted by: BerserkerBarage


~B.B.

With that out of the way. I stated I can't aim an assault rifle correctly. I would still expect that someone trained to do so would be able to place his bullets within a specific diameter. There's going to be spread within this circular diameter, and I would expect that 1 or 2 out of every 100 bullets fired will not land within this circle, but I would not expect for 1 or 2 out of every 25 bullets fired, or 15, or 12 (which is about how the BR performs) to land outside this circle. Even with shoddy aim one could assume that 19 out of 25 bullets fired from an M-16 or M-4 would land within a specific diameter. I'm not sure how these weapons are designed to perform so I cannot say what this diameter exactly is, but before you go cutting my feet out from under me and telling me that I shouldn't comment on how these weapons perform at all, remember that you are not qualified to comment on them any more than I am. Unless you happen to be a military weapons expert working for the Army.

The word "troll" as I'm using it is not a meme. It has yet to be defined as a generational item. It will be remembered by few, and a meme, in the proper sense of the word, is something that defines a generation. Look I really don't want to argue semantics read the damn definition, it's right in front of your face. Your wrong, I'm right get the hell over it kid. *EDIT* FYI I don't care how old you are, the word "kid" in this sentence is used to imply my superiority.

Just for you and your attempt to turn my argument on me about context, I went ahead and included the surrounding context for the example I was talking about up there. I never was taking words or phrases out of context and it's clearly shown in this post. The only one not using logic in this topic is you. Everything I've said has logical backing, logical references, logical understanding, whereas everything you've said has no backing, opinionated references, and no understanding whatsoever. You can stop using the provocative phrases as well. "Logical abortion"....heh... maybe a good idea for your next gamer tag. Just a thought.

Again this is a video game. There is no such thing as imperfect aim as long as your reticule is aimed at the target. There's no deviation from the reticule. The weapon fires where the reticule goes, or it should. In a controled environment EVERYONE has perfect aim. This would be the point of the vapor video, this would be the point of every BR test video ever made, -blam!- this would be the point of every science experiment ever done. The point is it's a controlled environment, and if you're telling me that with my opponent standing still my aim can't ever be perfect, then there's more wrong with this game than just a random bullet spread. The empirical evidence, look it up if you don't know what it means next time, is experiments, mathematics, and countless other articles and forum posts, none of which are based on the "faulty following" or inaccurate conjecture about any quote. I've already adressed why what I've commented on is not "taken out of context" so enough already.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS IMPERFECT AIM IN A VIDEO GAME....that is all.

Oh and I don't care if you respond to it I stated I didn't it to be ignored. I don't give a rats ass what you think about who said what or what they said. I wanted you to read it and be enlightened to the falacy of bungie, and their ability to flip-flop like a fork-tounged politician.


[Edited on 07.19.2008 10:17 PM PDT]

  • 07.19.2008 10:08 PM PDT

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Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Posted by: Foahda
Ahhh, the time has arrived. You are missing quite a big quantifier there chief. You are taking that quote out of context and without the full quote. Tsk tsk. They said that at 18 WUs (which is roughly from Sniper 2 to Gold 2) WITH PERFECT AIM, it should yield a kill. I'll say that again since you've seemed to miss it the past couple times. WITH PERFECT AIM. I don't have perfect aim. Neither does DanBauer. Neither do you. Bungie and the math nerds already have proven that it is mathematically possible to get a consistent 4-shot kill at this distance. That's empirical, not like you know what that means since you've been misusing it thus far. Until you understand that you don't have perfect aim at this distance and pretty much no one ever will, you'll never realize why you're wrong.

The problem is, that consistent 4 shot is hindered by hit detection that plagues every burst fire or automatic gun in the game. The netcode needs to definitely be looked at for the next patch to prevent this kind of garbage.
In Halo 2, you like never got dropped shots, and even in Halo CE online, though you needed to compensate for any latency, you didn't get nearly as many dropped shots as in Halo 3. It's just ridiculous.


I agree on this point. It seems that the netcode does have some perceivable problems. Even on my end and I'm not using a router and nothing else on the connection. I do have cable/broadband so depending on how many people close to me are using their connections it could alter my connection but I have definitely seen times where hit-detection was off.

To me, this is the bigger "issue" because it seems that a lot of people are getting host that really shouldn't be and netcode suffers tremendously from it.

~B.B.


.......good.

  • 07.19.2008 10:10 PM PDT

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Posted by: T3mptat1on
"If the BR is broken....and it was meant to be broken....doesnt that mean its fixed?"-U4iX.
Fix the spread.
Not only the spread.
The whole game.


I loled sir.

Cookie for you.

  • 07.19.2008 10:18 PM PDT
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http://www.wowomg.com/new/

  • 07.20.2008 12:50 AM PDT

go to www.hilessons.proboards42.com

Has anyone actually done the calculations? I posted earlier...much earlier, the calculations on the actual spread of the BR...no one seemed to listen.
Do them. Actually do them.
Surprising results, I promise.

  • 07.20.2008 7:59 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Look Craven, you're wrong. You continue to be wrong, because you can't accept that there are varying degrees of aim. You can have poor aim. You can have good aim. You can have perfect aim. However, at the distance of 18 WUs it is almost impossible to have perfect aim. Perfect aim at 18WUs is that point over the head that spread is completely mitigated. However, since the difference between "perfect aim" and "good aim" with "perfect" being where spread is completely mitigated and "good" is where 1 bullet will miss cause of spread causing a 5-shot is incredibly slight. According to the math that Bungie and the other math nerds did, there exist a point where you can aim on a stationary target at 18WUs and get a 4SK. However, like I've been trying to point out to you that trying to duplicate it with a human controlling aiming is going to be next to impossible. Because it really does come down to fractions of an millimeter on the reticule. The 18WUs obviously represents the top end of "medium range" that you can get a 4SK in. Of course the BR operates outside of this range effectively, just not as effectively as a 4SK.

So Craven, until you can crunch the math numbers and prove to me that they are wrong, I think I'll go with them and the countless other people that have done them in the community. With absolutely "perfect" aim, at 18WUs you can mitigate the bullet spread on the BR and it will get a 4SK consistently. However, since the difference between "perfect aim" and "good aim" is so slight there, if you want a consistent 4SK it becomes increasingly easier the closer you move to the target.

I also enjoy that you spend more and more of each post making ad hominems instead of really ever saying anything. You talk about firearms and ballistics when it is quite obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. Here's an example of why you don't know what you're talking about. My friends and I every once and awhile go and play Range Poker. Range Poker is a fun game. It's where you put a set of playing cards down range and each person systematically fires (I and most others use a M40A3 while one guy has a ScoutTac) one shot. If you hit the playing card, it's in your hand. You can shoot as many as you want building your hand in order to make the best hand available and you win. However, depending on what range we are firing from the amount of deviance from sight we have to adjust for. Luckily for me, I have a scope that allows me to gauge for windspeed and barometric. However, even with all independent variables controlled a firearm still contains a deviation when fired. Typically this deviation is attempted to be controlled by riling in firearm barrels but it can never fully be controlled. Here's the good part. This deviation is more prevalent the further away you get from your target!! Even in a controlled environment a single shot weapon like a M40A3 at ranges around 800 yards will produce highly sporadic results because of the deviation of the firearm. At around 800 yards there really isn't "perfect" aim anymore there is only "better" aim because you can't control for everything. Oh, and I spent several years working in the County Forensics lab as a ballistics lab technician running nitrate analysis and handling firearms. Ask Achilles what happens when you give me your license plate number.

So what's the point of my little story? All firearms contain random variance. These variances become more prevalent over greater distances. The H3 BR contains a random variance. This variance becomes more prevalent over greater distances. And even in a video game there exist such a thing as "perfect aim". Which is easier to do the closer you get to a target.

~B.B.

  • 07.20.2008 10:05 AM PDT
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Halo CE > Halo 3 > Halo 2

Fix the Halo 3 BR spread, plz.

Here's what I feel. The range of a mid-range accuracy based gun should not be based on how much it spreads out, as much as when the auto-aim and red reticle goes away. At ranges outside of that range, the enemy will be hard to hit, since there is no aim assist and auto-aim and the player will be too small to hit consistently with the gun, since you have such a small area of damage and a small target.

Here's a pic: Here

In this case, the BR won't "artificially" miss because of coding, but because of the fault of the player.

The AR and SMG should work like this, but with a bigger spread, since their reticles are bigger, but the first few shots should be incredibly accurate, like the first 3. This would make pulsing the gun more effective at mid range, requiring the gun to take more skill. There should always be a player controlled way to limit spread or a player controlled reason why you're missing, in my honest opinion, like the Pistol in Halo CE had and the AR has.

I don't like bringing realism into this argument, rather than just basing my argument on what I think would result in good, consistent, fun and potentially competitive gameplay. The reasons people get pissed are mainly because they lose from non-player controlled reasons.

[Edited on 07.20.2008 4:57 PM PDT]

  • 07.20.2008 4:48 PM PDT
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If cats land on their feet and toast lands butter-side-down, what happens if you strap a piece of toast to the back of a cat and drop it?

yeah, remember Halo 2 when you literally couldn't kill people because you couldn't get to a BR?

In Halo 3, the BR is a very useful weapon, and perhaps the most versatile, but you don't HAVE to have it to kill people.

I think the BR is fine the way it is. The weapon balance is excellent. Halo 3 is a well designed, well polished game.

  • 07.20.2008 6:12 PM PDT

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Posted by: Ryuzaki6
Has anyone actually done the calculations? I posted earlier...much earlier, the calculations on the actual spread of the BR...no one seemed to listen.
Do them. Actually do them.
Surprising results, I promise.


If I missed them I'm sorry. I'll look...


Posted by: Ryuzaki6
Okay guys... here it is. I did the calculations and figured it out.

The "Mid-Range" i think every one could agree upon would be roughly 7-10 World Units, or W.U.
Isn't that right?
Now, Taking into account the spread of the BR, the MOST, and ABSOLUTE MOST your 3rd bullet would fly outside of the dead center of the reticule is approximately 6 inches. Now, if you are using the battle rifle correctly, leading your shots, and you have a decent internet connection, that bullet will NOT miss your target's head. WILL NOT. the Master Chief's head is approximately 1 square foot, and when aiming at the center of it, the bullet will NOT MISS AND YOU WILL KILL YOUR OPPONENT. Also, take into account that this is the MOST the bullet could be off. The bullet could be dead center, or anything in between.

At "Long-Range" which would be for the average player about 18-20 W.U.
Do you agree?
Okay. So, at "long range" the MOST your third battle rifle bullet could be off is about 1 foot, which means it will not yield a kill, If the Battle rifle is being used correctly, with a decent connection. BUT, THE BATTLE RIFLE IS NOT CONSIDERED A LONG RANGE WEAPON, THEREFORE YOU SHOULD NOT BE TRYING TO GUN SOMEONE DOWN AT THIS RANGE. At this range, however, the battle rifle could be good for pinging a sniper, for the momentary cover, or for an opportunity to approach your opponent.

At "short-range", which I think the average player could consider anywhere from 1-6 W.U.
The battle rifle is almost dead accurate. The absolute most the third bullet could miss would be just about 2-4 inches, depending on the distance you are from your opponent. Therefore, THE THIRD BULLET WILL NEVER MISS THE HEAD OF YOUR TARGET. NEVER. THEREFORE, YOU WILL KILL YOUR OPPONENT, under reasonable network conditions and when being used correctly.

These values are the most the third bullet of the battle rifle burst will miss by, based on bungie's weekly update. Again, take into account that these are only the ABSOLUTE WORST possibilities for the third, most inaccurate bullet of the BR's three bullet burst.



Actually I would change the values of W.U.'s

1-7=close range
7-15=mid range
15-22=long range
22-infinite=snipe range.

You didn't account for the 10-18 range which is really the range we're talking about here.

  • 07.20.2008 6:41 PM PDT

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Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Look Craven, you're wrong. You continue to be wrong, because you can't accept that there are varying degrees of aim. You can have poor aim. You can have good aim. You can have perfect aim. However, at the distance of 18 WUs it is almost impossible to have perfect aim. Perfect aim at 18WUs is that point over the head that spread is completely mitigated. However, since the difference between "perfect aim" and "good aim" with "perfect" being where spread is completely mitigated and "good" is where 1 bullet will miss cause of spread causing a 5-shot is incredibly slight. According to the math that Bungie and the other math nerds did, there exist a point where you can aim on a stationary target at 18WUs and get a 4SK. However, like I've been trying to point out to you that trying to duplicate it with a human controlling aiming is going to be next to impossible. Because it really does come down to fractions of an millimeter on the reticule. The 18WUs obviously represents the top end of "medium range" that you can get a 4SK in. Of course the BR operates outside of this range effectively, just not as effectively as a 4SK.

So Craven, until you can crunch the math numbers and prove to me that they are wrong, I think I'll go with them and the countless other people that have done them in the community. With absolutely "perfect" aim, at 18WUs you can mitigate the bullet spread on the BR and it will get a 4SK consistently. However, since the difference between "perfect aim" and "good aim" is so slight there, if you want a consistent 4SK it becomes increasingly easier the closer you move to the target.

I also enjoy that you spend more and more of each post making ad hominems instead of really ever saying anything. You talk about firearms and ballistics when it is quite obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. Here's an example of why you don't know what you're talking about. My friends and I every once and awhile go and play Range Poker. Range Poker is a fun game. It's where you put a set of playing cards down range and each person systematically fires (I and most others use a M40A3 while one guy has a ScoutTac) one shot. If you hit the playing card, it's in your hand. You can shoot as many as you want building your hand in order to make the best hand available and you win. However, depending on what range we are firing from the amount of deviance from sight we have to adjust for. Luckily for me, I have a scope that allows me to gauge for windspeed and barometric. However, even with all independent variables controlled a firearm still contains a deviation when fired. Typically this deviation is attempted to be controlled by riling in firearm barrels but it can never fully be controlled. Here's the good part. This deviation is more prevalent the further away you get from your target!! Even in a controlled environment a single shot weapon like a M40A3 at ranges around 800 yards will produce highly sporadic results because of the deviation of the firearm. At around 800 yards there really isn't "perfect" aim anymore there is only "better" aim because you can't control for everything. Oh, and I spent several years working in the County Forensics lab as a ballistics lab technician running nitrate analysis and handling firearms. Ask Achilles what happens when you give me your license plate number.

So what's the point of my little story? All firearms contain random variance. These variances become more prevalent over greater distances. The H3 BR contains a random variance. This variance becomes more prevalent over greater distances. And even in a video game there exist such a thing as "perfect aim". Which is easier to do the closer you get to a target.

~B.B.


What you can't seem to accept is that your definition of "aim" is off, by a lot. Where my reticule is, is where I'm "aiming". Where the bullets fly is supposed to be where I'm aiming. My aim in a video game cannot be any different than where my on screen reticule is. Like I said if this is the case, and I'm actually aiming somewhere my reticule is not then there's more wrong with this game than I thought. That's why the on screen reticule was invented to show where you are aiming. So I'm failing to see how if my reticule is on target my aim is still off, apart from lag or coding issues.

And you still can't accept the fact that even though there are variables both in real life and video games this variable is quite a bit bigger than what can be accounted for from medium range. I'd have no problem if this kind of thing could be accounted for from the ranges that we're talking about, but it can't. Is 18 W.U.'s a little too far probably. I think 14 is a better number, and appearently untill I go in game and measure out this distance and test the BR myself people aren't going to believe me that it's not working properly. Any in game variable, at least historically, that is thrown at the player can be accounted for once a greater level of skill is gained. This kind of variable cannot be accounted for no matter how skilled you are. Yes you can get closer, Yes you can spam nades, Yes you can change your strategy of how you use the weapon. This is not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is in an empty room with one opponent, both have BR's no cover, no running away, the player who wins is just as likely to be the non-skilled player as it is the skilled player. Given that both players have steady aim. The player who's given the 4sk is determined by a random number, not by how well the weapon was aimed, or how skillfull the player is. If you think this is ok, then you haven't been playing games very long, and honestly you're not the kind of person this concerns. It's the skilled player who looses that battle 2 out of 5 times because the other player got a lucky bullet.

  • 07.20.2008 6:53 PM PDT

If you're interested in recruiting (or being recruited), for matchmaking or gamebattles, please join my group. If you do decide to join please tell all your friends. Thanks in advance.
Greatest game ever.
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Posted by: Foahda

I don't like bringing realism into this argument, rather than just basing my argument on what I think would result in good, consistent, fun and potentially competitive gameplay. The reasons people get pissed are mainly because they lose from non-player controlled reasons.


PERFECT! Explanation of why we're here

  • 07.20.2008 6:57 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

Halo CE > Halo 3 > Halo 2

Fix the Halo 3 BR spread, plz.

When BB says perfect aim, he means absolutely prefect aim that's single pixel center of the reticle in the pixel perfect center of the head of the opponent. It's essentially impossible to achieve this.

  • 07.20.2008 7:02 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: CravenC21h30o2
What you can't seem to accept is that your definition of "aim" is off, by a lot. Where my reticule is, is where I'm "aiming".


My definition of "aim" is just fine. I've run this conversation past a wide variety of people and they all seem to understand exactly what I'm saying and completely agree. It seems to me that your cognitive dissonance and bias is keeping you from understanding. When I talk about aim, there are different types. For example, when you have a sniper rifle and you want to kill in 1 shot (a headshot) you can have "perfect aim" where you fire, hit the head, and receive a kill. "Good aim" is where you fire, miss the head but hit the body, and damage your opponent. "Poor aim" is where you fire, miss your opponent altogether and nothing happens. Say now you take a sniper and put his opponent at a great length away. For example, from the back of one side of Standoff to the other back side of Standoff. At this distance you'll have lead your shot to hit a moving opponent. "Perfect aim" would be the point where you lead your opponent and you hit their head with your shot and you get a headshot. The BR is different as in it obviously have bullet spread. To have "perfect aim" with the BR you have to fire where the reticle is over the head where all bullets will hit even with bullet spread. This is obviously mathematically possible at 18WUs according to what Bungie has said and what others have said that have crunched the numbers. When you are putting your reticle over someone's head at 18WUs and you don't get a 4SK, you have good aim but not perfect aim. There is a perfect place to aim at 18WUs that will get you a 4SK. Just like there is a perfect place to aim to lead a person with the sniper rifle to get a headshot. I hope that you can understand now that even with the sniper rifle that when someone is incredibly far away it is increasingly hard to have perfect aim so that you can get a headshot and not just have good aim and hit your opponent.

Where the bullets fly is supposed to be where I'm aiming.

Obviously that will not happen exactly when you use a weapon with bullet spread.

My aim in a video game cannot be any different than where my on screen reticule is. Like I said if this is the case, and I'm actually aiming somewhere my reticule is not then there's more wrong with this game than I thought. That's why the on screen reticule was invented to show where you are aiming. So I'm failing to see how if my reticule is on target my aim is still off, apart from lag or coding issues.

Yes, your reticle is on target, it's just not on target to get a 4SK. This is the difference between what I call "perfect aim" and "good aim".

And you still can't accept the fact that even though there are variables both in real life and video games this variable is quite a bit bigger than what can be accounted for from medium range. I'd have no problem if this kind of thing could be accounted for from the ranges that we're talking about, but it can't. Is 18 W.U.'s a little too far probably. I think 14 is a better number, and appearently untill I go in game and measure out this distance and test the BR myself people aren't going to believe me that it's not working properly. Any in game variable, at least historically, that is thrown at the player can be accounted for once a greater level of skill is gained. This kind of variable cannot be accounted for no matter how skilled you are. Yes you can get closer, Yes you can spam nades, Yes you can change your strategy of how you use the weapon. This is not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is in an empty room with one opponent, both have BR's no cover, no running away, the player who wins is just as likely to be the non-skilled player as it is the skilled player. Given that both players have steady aim. The player who's given the 4sk is determined by a random number, not by how well the weapon was aimed, or how skillfull the player is. If you think this is ok, then you haven't been playing games very long, and honestly you're not the kind of person this concerns. It's the skilled player who looses that battle 2 out of 5 times because the other player got a lucky bullet.

If you really think that if you took any MLG pro and put him even against me that he'd lose a 1v1 BR battle with me then I have great fear for your so-called pros. A skilled player knows that up until 18WUs (that I know of) that the spread can be mitigated by aim. You can aim better than your opponent and even with spread you still can win. After 18WUs, it becomes a gamble because you're operating the weapon outside of it's 4SK effective range. And for the record again 18WUs is a pretty big distance. Who is given the 4SK is still determined by aim still even within 18WUs. Just simply aiming for the head isn't sufficient for aiming in H3. If you want a weapon that never has to worry about a spread, don't use the BR. Use the sniper rifle.

Oh, and I've been playing games since I was 6 with the Atari 2600 and the NES in 1988; so I think I've been "gaming" for longer than you.

~B.B.

  • 07.20.2008 7:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: UberZeO666
The BR takes skill to use now. And everyone is gonna have to deal with it


So it takes skill to be lucky?

I would be happier if the BR was consistent. If Bungie wanted to down-grade it, fine. But I would just like it if the BR wasn't random.

  • 07.20.2008 7:38 PM PDT