- TehAttak
- |
- Exalted Heroic Member
Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Posted by: TehAttak
Mr. Pipe:
Many people think 15 WU's is "close,"(I'd define that as being always possible for a four-shot kill,) just because it's their opinion, really. I agree with it because I feel that between ~15 and 25 WU (150 to 250 ft.) is mid-range (and the BR's intended range) just from experience with Halo CE/2 and other FPS/TPS games. It's just really a matter of opinion, since the phrase 'mid-to-long range' is not explicitly defined by Bungie, but is in the BR's design documentation.
BTW, I'm glad I've relieved your work boredom.
PS: I'd estimate that on 100% gravity and 100% speed, that you jump half a WU straight up over, say, roughly 1.25 WU. But this is not my area of expertise... :D
EDIT @ BB: The BR is just... the BR. Right now it's sort of functional. Many of us are hoping it becomes better, just like the mêlée system.
Ugh, and now comes the quagmire of this discussion. As you've mentioned such a relative term is always going to be a point of contention in this debate. If Bungie came out and said, "we feel that mid-range starts at 7.5WUs" that would pretty much end things. They won't. I know that no Bungie employees will ever post in this thread unless there is a very good reason to. I've even talked about this thread with a Bungie employee but I very much doubt he'd ever post in it "on record".
Me personally, since we are discussing opinions, feel that 75 feet or 7.5WUs is the beginning of the transition of close to mid range. I've always liked using a 5 part range (close, mid-close, mid, mid-far, and far) because it's more Likert, but what can you do? And here's how I view things with mid-range starting at 7.5WUs. If you want the AR to be 100% effective you have to be relatively close to your opponent. Somewhere around at least 3WUs. Anything passed that and even with pulsing RT, you're going to miss a few shots. So, if you want 100% effectiveness from the AR you have to "gamble". You have to be willing to go in a short amount of range in which other weapons can overpower the AR. However, if you don't care about the AR being 100% effective, you can choose to remain farther back, expend more ammo, but remain "relatively" safer. Same thing is true with the BR. If you want it to be 100% accurate, you're going to need to be ~12WUs and have pretty good aim. Which at this distance it would be hard to kill you with an AR, it is however possible. If you'd rather trade off having to expend more ammo in order to ensure "relative" safety, then move to a distance that makes the AR almost pointless. The same thing with the sniper rifle. Obviously if you want 100% accuracy (4x1SK) you're going to need tremendous aim and probably be within a range where a BR could ping you out of scope. If you don't care if you get a 2SK here and there, you always have the option to put more range between you and it makes you "relatively" safer.
As I've said before, I consider 150Ft. or 15WUs to be certainly mid-range. And honestly I would hate to see people be able to consistently get a 4SK from this distance because it means that the only way to fight back is have either a BR or sniper of your own. That would create the same overpowered BR that was in H2, and would greatly harm weapons balance and gameplay in H3 (IMO).
Now, onto something you mentioned earlier TehAttak. You mentioned latency. The problem with bringing latency into this discussion is that it affects all weapons, not just the BR. To suggest that the BR needs improvement because of latency is non sequitur. Because according to that line of reasoning if the BR should have an improvement, so should every weapon in the game, effectively canceling out any improvement done. To say that latency affects a pro's 100% effective range with the BR while ignoring that latency is also affecting whoever he's fighting against is only looking at one half of the equation. So for this discussion it seems to me that latency and it's affects can't really be considered when talking about possible changes or alterations. So a pro, with 90% accuracy still has an 100% effective range with the BR from 0WUs up till around 12WUs IIRC. That's still a big range, one that is considerably larger than the majority of other weaponry.
Oh and BannedPotatoLive, I never once suggested that since my opinion is in the majority or the fact that people like my opinion makes it "right". Those are 2 awfully bad fallacies, but I'm sure you knew that. If you were trying to suggest that I was making those claims in order to discredit what I've said...guess what....that would be a strawman. You said my "elitist attitude" was a problem. I pointed out that quite a few people like "my elitist attitude".
~B.B.
I'll be quick here...:D
Mid-range is what you personally define it as... so we're not going to go far there until Bungie states what it is.
Onto latency: Latency amplifies the BR's problems, but it is not a reason for fixing it; the design is. Yes, latency affects all guns. Yes, it also affects the BR with the 'bullet-refund' thing. But the BR is not alone in this aspect. But that also does not mean latency doesn't further highlight the BR's design shortcomings.
Next point: I find your statement that improving the BR would break the balance of the game is redundant. As of now, in order to kill someone skilled with a BR at ~13 WU one-on-one, you're going to need a BR, Carbine, Laser, Sniper, or Beam Rifle. If the BR became a 4sK (or my solution, three headshot kill,) at 25 WU, it would still take a BR, Sniper, Laser, or Beam Rifle to kill him. Yeah, the Carbine loses it's place in this list, but now the Carbine has a decisive role: between AR and BR effective range (~5 WU to ~17 WU.) I'd say the game is actually more balanced now. The sniper is still king upwards of 32 or so WU, with no bullet lead necessary, better scopes, and maximum two-hit kills; so its dominance of range is still uncontested.
Last point: Neither you, BakedPotato, or you, BB, are being rude, elitist, or otherwise really egregiously antisocial. We're just arguing our points out like grown adults. Let's hope more Bungie.net users take a cue from this discussion. :D