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This topic has moved here: Subject: The Only BR Thread
  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
Subject: The Only BR Thread
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First, I'm glad I'll have something to read at work tomorrow (TehAttak and his debator's posts).
Second, I'm gonna have to contest something of TehAttaks. In one of your recent posts, you said that most people would deem 15 WU "close" range. If we take Snipe 2 to Gold 2 to be 18 WUs (not sure where it ends and stops, but for this I'll assume it's at the edge of both rooms, facing the top middle), as the WWUD said, then 15 WUs isn't close range at all. From the edge of Snipe 2 to the middle of top middle (on the little raised part), we get roughly the maximum range of the SMG. A full clip of ammo will kill a player at this range, but only a full clip. This is, to me, a little bit over the beginning of the "medium" range. The SMG is definitely a close range weapon and it most definitely can't kill someone at 15 WUs. Taking the halfway point to be 9 WUs (a fairly large assumption, but let's go with it...) the edge of the SMGs effectiveness is about 9 WUs.

With that, 15 WUs would be about at the start of the gold 2 jump (coming from snipe 2). That's definitely not at close range.

Side note: It'd be nice to know how far a spartan can jump when running at full speed, in WUs.

  • 07.22.2008 10:50 PM PDT

When life gives you lemons..... BUILD A LEMON BOMB!!!!

Listen to my words- THE BR IS GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • 07.22.2008 11:19 PM PDT

"Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive anyway." Goes for anything I say; anything I do, doubly so.

Need assistance with anything? Shoot me a PM. Duardo's FAQ on User Titles. | A word from 54.

Mr. Pipe:

Many people think 15 WU's is "close,"(I'd define that as being always possible for a four-shot kill,) just because it's their opinion, really. I agree with it because I feel that between ~15 and 25 WU (150 to 250 ft.) is mid-range (and the BR's intended range) just from experience with Halo CE/2 and other FPS/TPS games. It's just really a matter of opinion, since the phrase 'mid-to-long range' is not explicitly defined by Bungie, but is in the BR's design documentation.

BTW, I'm glad I've relieved your work boredom.

PS: I'd estimate that on 100% gravity and 100% speed, that you jump half a WU straight up over, say, roughly 1.25 WU. But this is not my area of expertise... :D

EDIT @ BB: The BR is just... the BR. Right now it's sort of functional. Many of us are hoping it becomes better, just like the mêlée system.

[Edited on 07.23.2008 12:36 AM PDT]

  • 07.23.2008 12:34 AM PDT

br is beast

  • 07.23.2008 1:33 AM PDT
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BUNGIE IS GARBAGE


FREE BREAD

  • 07.23.2008 2:19 AM PDT
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rofl, so right.
you KNOW you can't recognize the "spread", and if you can? Then rly...get a life I'm sorry.

[Edited on 07.23.2008 6:25 AM PDT]

  • 07.23.2008 6:24 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: TehAttak
Mr. Pipe:

Many people think 15 WU's is "close,"(I'd define that as being always possible for a four-shot kill,) just because it's their opinion, really. I agree with it because I feel that between ~15 and 25 WU (150 to 250 ft.) is mid-range (and the BR's intended range) just from experience with Halo CE/2 and other FPS/TPS games. It's just really a matter of opinion, since the phrase 'mid-to-long range' is not explicitly defined by Bungie, but is in the BR's design documentation.

BTW, I'm glad I've relieved your work boredom.

PS: I'd estimate that on 100% gravity and 100% speed, that you jump half a WU straight up over, say, roughly 1.25 WU. But this is not my area of expertise... :D

EDIT @ BB: The BR is just... the BR. Right now it's sort of functional. Many of us are hoping it becomes better, just like the mêlée system.


Ugh, and now comes the quagmire of this discussion. As you've mentioned such a relative term is always going to be a point of contention in this debate. If Bungie came out and said, "we feel that mid-range starts at 7.5WUs" that would pretty much end things. They won't. I know that no Bungie employees will ever post in this thread unless there is a very good reason to. I've even talked about this thread with a Bungie employee but I very much doubt he'd ever post in it "on record".

Me personally, since we are discussing opinions, feel that 75 feet or 7.5WUs is the beginning of the transition of close to mid range. I've always liked using a 5 part range (close, mid-close, mid, mid-far, and far) because it's more Likert, but what can you do? And here's how I view things with mid-range starting at 7.5WUs. If you want the AR to be 100% effective you have to be relatively close to your opponent. Somewhere around at least 3WUs. Anything passed that and even with pulsing RT, you're going to miss a few shots. So, if you want 100% effectiveness from the AR you have to "gamble". You have to be willing to go in a short amount of range in which other weapons can overpower the AR. However, if you don't care about the AR being 100% effective, you can choose to remain farther back, expend more ammo, but remain "relatively" safer. Same thing is true with the BR. If you want it to be 100% accurate, you're going to need to be ~12WUs and have pretty good aim. Which at this distance it would be hard to kill you with an AR, it is however possible. If you'd rather trade off having to expend more ammo in order to ensure "relative" safety, then move to a distance that makes the AR almost pointless. The same thing with the sniper rifle. Obviously if you want 100% accuracy (4x1SK) you're going to need tremendous aim and probably be within a range where a BR could ping you out of scope. If you don't care if you get a 2SK here and there, you always have the option to put more range between you and it makes you "relatively" safer.

As I've said before, I consider 150Ft. or 15WUs to be certainly mid-range. And honestly I would hate to see people be able to consistently get a 4SK from this distance because it means that the only way to fight back is have either a BR or sniper of your own. That would create the same overpowered BR that was in H2, and would greatly harm weapons balance and gameplay in H3 (IMO).

Now, onto something you mentioned earlier TehAttak. You mentioned latency. The problem with bringing latency into this discussion is that it affects all weapons, not just the BR. To suggest that the BR needs improvement because of latency is non sequitur. Because according to that line of reasoning if the BR should have an improvement, so should every weapon in the game, effectively canceling out any improvement done. To say that latency affects a pro's 100% effective range with the BR while ignoring that latency is also affecting whoever he's fighting against is only looking at one half of the equation. So for this discussion it seems to me that latency and it's affects can't really be considered when talking about possible changes or alterations. So a pro, with 90% accuracy still has an 100% effective range with the BR from 0WUs up till around 12WUs IIRC. That's still a big range, one that is considerably larger than the majority of other weaponry.

Oh and BannedPotatoLive, I never once suggested that since my opinion is in the majority or the fact that people like my opinion makes it "right". Those are 2 awfully bad fallacies, but I'm sure you knew that. If you were trying to suggest that I was making those claims in order to discredit what I've said...guess what....that would be a strawman. You said my "elitist attitude" was a problem. I pointed out that quite a few people like "my elitist attitude".

~B.B.

  • 07.23.2008 7:27 AM PDT

Bathed In Blood, Crowned In Glory

Posted by: ZEKE 1337
Why are so many people complaining about the BR spread? I don't see a problem. It's not my top tool of destruction for nothing.



They are complaining because now It takes SKILL to kill people with It, and they dont have any so they get mad.
It's perfectly fine as It is now...People learn how to play with It, and you won't have any problems.

  • 07.23.2008 7:46 AM PDT
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A7X FAN.

BR, boring rifle.

Same thing over and over, I like the machine guns nowz.

  • 07.23.2008 8:30 AM PDT
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I love the br spread, i got a couple triple kills off of it :)
and it does infact beat an AR if you dont miss a single shot, and you four-shot them

[Edited on 07.23.2008 9:20 AM PDT]

  • 07.23.2008 9:18 AM PDT

(This century intentionally left blank. Seriously, nothing really happened.)

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/PlayerStatsHalo2.aspx?player=Bagg yNickel

REAL7ALK

Point at head and shoot, now what could be so hard about that? oh? all the bullets don't hit dead on you say? well then i guess you're going to have to shoot more then...

  • 07.23.2008 11:17 AM PDT

Multiplayer Gameplay
Halo:CE------------------Reach--------Halo2-----------------H alo3
Campaign Experience
Reach----Halo:CE-----------------ODST-----Halo2---------Halo3

Glad that Halo 3 garbage is dead, thanks to Reach.
Unfreakenbelievable!!

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Now, onto something you mentioned earlier TehAttak. You mentioned latency. The problem with bringing latency into this discussion is that it affects all weapons, not just the BR. To suggest that the BR needs improvement because of latency is non sequitur. Because according to that line of reasoning if the BR should have an improvement, so should every weapon in the game, effectively canceling out any improvement done. To say that latency affects a pro's 100% effective range with the BR while ignoring that latency is also affecting whoever he's fighting against is only looking at one half of the equation. So for this discussion it seems to me that latency and it's affects can't really be considered when talking about possible changes or alterations. So a pro, with 90% accuracy still has an 100% effective range with the BR from 0WUs up till around 12WUs IIRC. That's still a big range, one that is considerably larger than the majority of other weaponry.

~B.B.

I'm assuming your talking about the "bullet dropping"/"bullet refunding" issue. This affects most weapons, and yes, should not be used as a complaint toward the BR individually. HOWEVER, the BR is a burst-fire weapon so if one bullet disappears you are delayed until you can make the next shot, and the difference between a 4sk and a 5sk could be life or death. With the AR or SMG, one bullet disappearing won't matter as much since there will be more bullets following right after, and the bullets are stronger. While using the BR, it is much more crucial that all its bullets hit. I know I probably just pointed out the obvious, but what I'm trying to say is that this issue affects the BR far more than any other weapon.

Actually, this can be compared to when the BR's random spread causes a bullet to miss. One bullet can decide whether you win or lose a fight.

  • 07.23.2008 1:03 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Jiggly Luv
I'm assuming your talking about the "bullet dropping"/"bullet refunding" issue. This affects most weapons, and yes, should not be used as a complaint toward the BR individually. HOWEVER, the BR is a burst-fire weapon so if one bullet disappears you are delayed until you can make the next shot, and the difference between a 4sk and a 5sk could be life or death. With the AR or SMG, one bullet disappearing won't matter as much since there will be more bullets following right after, and the bullets are stronger. While using the BR, it is much more crucial that all its bullets hit. I know I probably just pointed out the obvious, but what I'm trying to say is that this issue affects the BR far more than any other weapon.

Actually, this can be compared to when the BR's random spread causes a bullet to miss. One bullet can decide whether you win or lose a fight.


Actually, I'm just talking about plain old latency/lag/ping. I assumed Teh Attack was aswell. Latency can make you miss shots or parts of shots because where you are firing the person is no longer there. You're basically firing at a residual image of the person you're fighting and it can be problematic. It also can cause "hit-registration" problems because you fire your weapon, while on a high ping/latency, and on your screen shows a hit. However, on the host screen you fire and miss. So your box sends a packet saying "I shot here and hit here" and the host sends a packet saying "you shot here and missed here". The host's box wins and while you see a hit (even in the post-game film) the host doesn't recognize it so it "doesn't exist". Even with dedicated servers for H3 (which isn't very plausible) latency/lag/ping would still exist and could still impact gameplay. Which is why even though it sucks, there is very little you can do about it.

Now, as to the whole "bullet refund" thing. I'd much rather the game refund me the "missing" bullets than it do what Halo 2 did, which is just completely erase them from even existing. In Halo 2, if you had packet loss the shot/bullet just didn't register and it disappeared and you are just SOL. In H3, the host and client have to agree upon the outcome (firing) and if it doesn't, the netcode "refunds" the bullet back to the person firing. Which, while still sucks, doesn't pretend it never happened like Halo 2 did.

~B.B.

[Edited on 07.23.2008 1:21 PM PDT]

  • 07.23.2008 1:19 PM PDT

Multiplayer Gameplay
Halo:CE------------------Reach--------Halo2-----------------H alo3
Campaign Experience
Reach----Halo:CE-----------------ODST-----Halo2---------Halo3

Glad that Halo 3 garbage is dead, thanks to Reach.
Unfreakenbelievable!!

Oh, my mistake.
Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Now, as to the whole "bullet refund" thing. I'd much rather the game refund me the "missing" bullets than it do what Halo 2 did, which is just completely erase them from even existing. In Halo 2, if you had packet loss the shot/bullet just didn't register and it disappeared and you are just SOL. In H3, the host and client have to agree upon the outcome (firing) and if it doesn't, the netcode "refunds" the bullet back to the person firing. Which, while still sucks, doesn't pretend it never happened like Halo 2 did.

~B.B.

It really doesn't make a difference to me. You are still gonna have to fire even more bullets if a bullet doesn't register, so it really isn't giving you back much. Also, if it causes you to end up dead, then those refunded bullets won't help you at all. However, if that was the best way Bungie could think of as a counter to "bullets dropping", then that will have to do.

  • 07.23.2008 1:34 PM PDT

In what directions does the BR spread make the bullets go?

  • 07.23.2008 1:35 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Jiggly Luv
Oh, my mistake.
Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Now, as to the whole "bullet refund" thing. I'd much rather the game refund me the "missing" bullets than it do what Halo 2 did, which is just completely erase them from even existing. In Halo 2, if you had packet loss the shot/bullet just didn't register and it disappeared and you are just SOL. In H3, the host and client have to agree upon the outcome (firing) and if it doesn't, the netcode "refunds" the bullet back to the person firing. Which, while still sucks, doesn't pretend it never happened like Halo 2 did.

~B.B.

It really doesn't make a difference to me. You are still gonna have to fire even more bullets if a bullet doesn't register, so it really isn't giving you back much. Also, if it causes you to end up dead, then those refunded bullets won't help you at all. However, if that was the best way Bungie could think of as a counter to "bullets dropping", then that will have to do.


Yeah, it's a pretty crappy situation any way you look at it. While if you end up dead because of packet loss, you're still dead and your ammo counter doesn't really matter; you still will be dead whether or not Bungie "refunded" your bullet(s). There really isn't a way to "counter" packet loss from my limited understanding of it. Like I said, this is just trying to make the "best" per se out of a really bad situation. Maybe Bungie should have kept it the same as in H2, where if you had packet loss you just "missed", however I figure people would have been complaining when they started watching "theater films" and noticed a bullet or shot disappear. Who knows.

~B.B.

  • 07.23.2008 2:07 PM PDT
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its fine as it is

  • 07.23.2008 4:01 PM PDT
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Sometimes the BR is BS in HALO 3, but it doesn't bother me that much.

  • 07.23.2008 4:56 PM PDT

"Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive anyway." Goes for anything I say; anything I do, doubly so.

Need assistance with anything? Shoot me a PM. Duardo's FAQ on User Titles. | A word from 54.

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Posted by: TehAttak
Mr. Pipe:

Many people think 15 WU's is "close,"(I'd define that as being always possible for a four-shot kill,) just because it's their opinion, really. I agree with it because I feel that between ~15 and 25 WU (150 to 250 ft.) is mid-range (and the BR's intended range) just from experience with Halo CE/2 and other FPS/TPS games. It's just really a matter of opinion, since the phrase 'mid-to-long range' is not explicitly defined by Bungie, but is in the BR's design documentation.

BTW, I'm glad I've relieved your work boredom.

PS: I'd estimate that on 100% gravity and 100% speed, that you jump half a WU straight up over, say, roughly 1.25 WU. But this is not my area of expertise... :D

EDIT @ BB: The BR is just... the BR. Right now it's sort of functional. Many of us are hoping it becomes better, just like the mêlée system.


Ugh, and now comes the quagmire of this discussion. As you've mentioned such a relative term is always going to be a point of contention in this debate. If Bungie came out and said, "we feel that mid-range starts at 7.5WUs" that would pretty much end things. They won't. I know that no Bungie employees will ever post in this thread unless there is a very good reason to. I've even talked about this thread with a Bungie employee but I very much doubt he'd ever post in it "on record".

Me personally, since we are discussing opinions, feel that 75 feet or 7.5WUs is the beginning of the transition of close to mid range. I've always liked using a 5 part range (close, mid-close, mid, mid-far, and far) because it's more Likert, but what can you do? And here's how I view things with mid-range starting at 7.5WUs. If you want the AR to be 100% effective you have to be relatively close to your opponent. Somewhere around at least 3WUs. Anything passed that and even with pulsing RT, you're going to miss a few shots. So, if you want 100% effectiveness from the AR you have to "gamble". You have to be willing to go in a short amount of range in which other weapons can overpower the AR. However, if you don't care about the AR being 100% effective, you can choose to remain farther back, expend more ammo, but remain "relatively" safer. Same thing is true with the BR. If you want it to be 100% accurate, you're going to need to be ~12WUs and have pretty good aim. Which at this distance it would be hard to kill you with an AR, it is however possible. If you'd rather trade off having to expend more ammo in order to ensure "relative" safety, then move to a distance that makes the AR almost pointless. The same thing with the sniper rifle. Obviously if you want 100% accuracy (4x1SK) you're going to need tremendous aim and probably be within a range where a BR could ping you out of scope. If you don't care if you get a 2SK here and there, you always have the option to put more range between you and it makes you "relatively" safer.

As I've said before, I consider 150Ft. or 15WUs to be certainly mid-range. And honestly I would hate to see people be able to consistently get a 4SK from this distance because it means that the only way to fight back is have either a BR or sniper of your own. That would create the same overpowered BR that was in H2, and would greatly harm weapons balance and gameplay in H3 (IMO).

Now, onto something you mentioned earlier TehAttak. You mentioned latency. The problem with bringing latency into this discussion is that it affects all weapons, not just the BR. To suggest that the BR needs improvement because of latency is non sequitur. Because according to that line of reasoning if the BR should have an improvement, so should every weapon in the game, effectively canceling out any improvement done. To say that latency affects a pro's 100% effective range with the BR while ignoring that latency is also affecting whoever he's fighting against is only looking at one half of the equation. So for this discussion it seems to me that latency and it's affects can't really be considered when talking about possible changes or alterations. So a pro, with 90% accuracy still has an 100% effective range with the BR from 0WUs up till around 12WUs IIRC. That's still a big range, one that is considerably larger than the majority of other weaponry.

Oh and BannedPotatoLive, I never once suggested that since my opinion is in the majority or the fact that people like my opinion makes it "right". Those are 2 awfully bad fallacies, but I'm sure you knew that. If you were trying to suggest that I was making those claims in order to discredit what I've said...guess what....that would be a strawman. You said my "elitist attitude" was a problem. I pointed out that quite a few people like "my elitist attitude".

~B.B.


I'll be quick here...:D

Mid-range is what you personally define it as... so we're not going to go far there until Bungie states what it is.

Onto latency: Latency amplifies the BR's problems, but it is not a reason for fixing it; the design is. Yes, latency affects all guns. Yes, it also affects the BR with the 'bullet-refund' thing. But the BR is not alone in this aspect. But that also does not mean latency doesn't further highlight the BR's design shortcomings.


Next point: I find your statement that improving the BR would break the balance of the game is redundant. As of now, in order to kill someone skilled with a BR at ~13 WU one-on-one, you're going to need a BR, Carbine, Laser, Sniper, or Beam Rifle. If the BR became a 4sK (or my solution, three headshot kill,) at 25 WU, it would still take a BR, Sniper, Laser, or Beam Rifle to kill him. Yeah, the Carbine loses it's place in this list, but now the Carbine has a decisive role: between AR and BR effective range (~5 WU to ~17 WU.) I'd say the game is actually more balanced now. The sniper is still king upwards of 32 or so WU, with no bullet lead necessary, better scopes, and maximum two-hit kills; so its dominance of range is still uncontested.

Last point: Neither you, BakedPotato, or you, BB, are being rude, elitist, or otherwise really egregiously antisocial. We're just arguing our points out like grown adults. Let's hope more Bungie.net users take a cue from this discussion. :D

  • 07.23.2008 7:54 PM PDT
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I am making a new group called the glitch team so come by and have a look and join now and download some glitched maps and post your own glitched maps.

  • 07.23.2008 8:06 PM PDT
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You know, bungie doesn't care, they might watch the thread from time to time to see if there are good ideas, but this is mainly here so people don't get butt hurt, that they totally closed off any BR threads.

  • 07.23.2008 8:10 PM PDT

Not even Chuck Norris can beat the San Jose Sharks.

Nothing's wrong with the BR people can still get kills with it I sure can.

[Edited on 07.23.2008 8:17 PM PDT]

  • 07.23.2008 8:16 PM PDT
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Halo CE > Halo 3 > Halo 2

Fix the Halo 3 BR spread, plz.

Amazing posts, TehAttak.

I'm just gonna have to say that the reason people only want less spread for the BR is that they crave the consistent, skilled headshot weapon that has been present in Halo CE and Halo 2, and that is frustrating them. The AR and Shotgun have spreads that work in their range (but the AR and Shotgun's range should be increased, IMO) People are simply frustrated that the red reticle does not provide consistent 4SKs with good aim, like the Shotgun and the AR work in the red reticle.

  • 07.23.2008 8:46 PM PDT

"Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive anyway." Goes for anything I say; anything I do, doubly so.

Need assistance with anything? Shoot me a PM. Duardo's FAQ on User Titles. | A word from 54.

Posted by: Foahda
Amazing posts, TehAttak.

I'm just gonna have to say that the reason people only want less spread for the BR is that they crave the consistent, skilled headshot weapon that has been present in Halo CE and Halo 2, and that is frustrating them. The AR and Shotgun have spreads that work in their range (but the AR and Shotgun's range should be increased, IMO) People are simply frustrated that the red reticle does not provide consistent 4SKs with good aim, like the Shotgun and the AR work in the red reticle.



That's the story, really. We feel the BR's range is just too short because the spread is too much. That's it. Less spread. No doubleshots, no BxR, no hitscan. All we want.

Also, yes, the BR still can get kills, this is true. We just want it to be better, more consistent in doing so. Just like the mêlée was patched: it functioned before, it was better after it was patched.

  • 07.23.2008 8:54 PM PDT