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This topic has moved here: Subject: The Only BR Thread
  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
Subject: The Only BR Thread

Posted by: MadroKurgan

Your basketball analogy is misleading.

A better analogy is comparing the BR to the Basketball.

In Halo 3 the BR is not a reliable weapon. It is a weapon of chance, a role of dice as to whether it will work as intended. Even when you are with in the appropriate range (reticle turns red when scoped or unscoped) you have the randomness of the spread, and the randomness as to whether your bullets will even register.

In basketball your weapon is the ball. If the ball was lopsided, went flat all of a sudden, or grew in size too large to fit through the hoop, then it would be unreliable like the H3 BR. Players could not depend on the basketball to go through the hoop when their aiming is precise.

How is either scenario fair to skilled player?


Yet there is a range where the BR is 100% accurate (7wu) - as I said above, none of what you say obliterates the strategic element. Just as there are certain circumstances which can occur in basketball that decrease the accuracy of your shot (IF you CHOOSE to take that shot under those circumstances), there are certain circumstances in Halo 3 which do the same. Your argument that the BR is in fact the basketball is inaccurate per the above - i.e. the basketball never changes size...your accuracy is just less reliable when you shoot it flatfooted or chuck it from across the court.

Posted by: RapieR_iPro
If you consider slowly killing off your fanbase not a problem because you dont listen to them..

People are simply going to move onto the next game I.E. Gears of War2 is on its way to completely demolishing halo3


The small but extremely vocal minority who are complaining hardly represent the Bungie fanbase - they don't even represent the competitive community or MLG. If they all quit playing tomorrow and never came back, there would still be hundreds of thousands on Live that night, and the next night, and the next...

[Edited on 07.27.2008 9:07 PM PDT]

  • 07.27.2008 8:58 PM PDT
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Halo CE > Halo 3 > Halo 2

Fix the Halo 3 BR spread, plz.

I still fail to see how making the BR require perfect shots at all ranges, but not changing any else about them makes it so that all the other weapons are useless. The gun will still be able to 4 shot a close range. It still takes the same amount of shots. It'll be harder to hit at medium range, since shots don't veer off by luck into the opponent if the crossheir isn't on their head correctly. It actually makes the other guns more useful since the BR would be more difficult to wield.

  • 07.27.2008 9:10 PM PDT

"Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive anyway." Goes for anything I say; anything I do, doubly so.

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Posted by: Shakespeare212
Posted by: TehAttak

Alright; it's friendly debate time.

The BR is 100% capable of a four-shot inside of about 7 WU... seventy feet is not all that much.

As for the strategic decision, well, if he engages as well, but he gets lucky with his spread and hits where you miss? That's... well... as good as random. Admitted, it's not to a point where it's completely game-breaking, but it would be nice to see a decrease in the spread amounts; just so that within the red reticule (about 25 WU), the spread will not mitigate good aim and will be able to yield consistent four shot kills.


I hear you...but again, you can't oblterate the strategic element. The fact remains that if you chose to engage at that range, it wasn't a good strategic choice. Personally, I think that over time one develops a pretty good feel for the effective range of the weapon.

Frankly, it seems to me that if you had extended accuracy the weapon would be too accurate, even on a map like Valhalla, it would be too much of a sniper-level killer. So...7 wu doesn't seem too short to me. I know that's an opinion, but it's in response to your opinion as well.


The strategic element would also apply to both players... so that why should one player be rewarded by something neither player can control for making a 'bad strategic move?

BTW, 7 WU is from the OS on Guardian to the Elbow... 25 WU is about how far the Valhalla mancannon takes you. (Flag to a bit past dropoff.) Will that be a sniper killer? I don't think so, really...

  • 07.27.2008 9:20 PM PDT

Halo: CE > > Halo 3 > Halo: Reach = Halo 2

Posted by: Shakespeare212
Yet there is a range where the BR is 100% accurate (7wu) - as I said above, none of what you say obliterates the strategic element. Just as there are certain circumstances which can occur in basketball that decrease the accuracy of your shot (IF you CHOOSE to take that shot under those circumstances), there are certain circumstances in Halo 3 which do the same. Your argument that the BR is in fact the basketball is inaccurate per the above - i.e. the basketball never changes size...your accuracy is just less reliable when you shoot it flatfooted or chuck it from across the court.

First of all, the BR should be 100% accurate if within the distance to where the reticle turns red, when unscoped or scoped. If his aim is perfect, and the reticle turns read, then every bullet should hit the intended mark. Same as a basketball player. If his aim is perfect, and within the given range, then his ball will go through the hoop.

Second, you never address bullets not registering when not host.

Your basketball analogy is flawed. Lets look at your reasoning...

You compare the randomness of a basketball player with his shot (whether he is off balance, whether he is jumping, both feet planted, etc.) to that of the BR bullet spread randomness, and the randomness of bullets not counting. You are comparing apples to oranges.

The randomness of a basketball players shot aim is not the same as the randomness of a tool (BR or basket ball) for which a player uses to accomplish a goal. If you are going to compare a basketball players randomness of his ball shot, then you have to compare the randomness of a Halo 3 player with his BR shot. For example, when the Halo 3 player shoots his BR, was his aim off due to jumping while aiming, strafing, etc. These are all user error randomness. They have direct control over them.

A player has zero, nada, zilch control over the BR spread or the bullets not registering. And as i stated in my previous post, the same would apply for a basketball player who has his tool, his basketball randomly not perform as intended. He would thereby have no control over the basketball, because of its randomness.

[Edited on 07.27.2008 9:33 PM PDT]

  • 07.27.2008 9:24 PM PDT

"Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive anyway." Goes for anything I say; anything I do, doubly so.

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Posted by: MadroKurgan
First of all, the BR should be 100% accurate if within the distance to where the reticle turns red, when unscoped or scoped. If his aim is perfect, and the reticle turns read, then every bullet should hit the intended mark. Same as a basketball player. If his aim is perfect, and within the given range, then his ball will go through the hoop.

...

A player has zero, nada, zilch control over the BR spread or the bullets not registering. And as i stated in my previous post, the same would apply for a basketball player who has his tool, his basketball randomly not perform as intended. He would thereby have no control over the basketball, because of its randomness.


Exactly. The BR's reticule is red to about 25 WU... but it is near impossible to get a kill, even with host, leading shot, and pixel-perfect aim.

And that's the other thing: the BR, unlike the AR, Shotgun, etc., its spread cannot be controlled by any means. It's all a luck of the draw...

The spread needs to be there; just not as much... Refer to my suggestion on how to make everyone happy... :D

  • 07.27.2008 11:34 PM PDT
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i think they should bring the h2 br back for the BXR , double shots, BXB, Quadshots, and more it was much better thats why i still playhalo 2 from time to time

  • 07.28.2008 2:48 AM PDT

Halo: CE > > Halo 3 > Halo: Reach = Halo 2

I could care less about the H2 BR glitches. I just want the H2 BR bullet spread.

  • 07.28.2008 2:58 AM PDT

"Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive anyway." Goes for anything I say; anything I do, doubly so.

Need assistance with anything? Shoot me a PM. Duardo's FAQ on User Titles. | A word from 54.

Posted by: MadroKurgan
I could care less about the H2 BR glitches. I just want the H2 BR bullet spread.


Heck, not even that tight. I'd just like the BR spread to not prohibit four shot kills every time in red reticule. (≤ 25 WU.) Still need to lead shots, everything else is the same. Just tweak the RNG in the BR.

(I'd also like three headshots to kill... but that's me.)

  • 07.28.2008 3:05 AM PDT

Halo: CE > > Halo 3 > Halo: Reach = Halo 2

Posted by: TehAttak
Posted by: MadroKurgan
I could care less about the H2 BR glitches. I just want the H2 BR bullet spread.


Heck, not even that tight. I'd just like the BR spread to not prohibit four shot kills every time in red reticule. (≤ 25 WU.) Still need to lead shots, everything else is the same. Just tweak the RNG in the BR.

(I'd also like three headshots to kill... but that's me.)


I agree with you with the conviction of 7 Arabian princesses.

[Edited on 07.28.2008 3:08 AM PDT]

  • 07.28.2008 3:07 AM PDT

Halo: CE > > Halo 3 > Halo: Reach = Halo 2

Hell, what i'd really like is a single shot BR with a 3-4 shot kill, with the same fire rate as the Halo 1 pistol.

  • 07.28.2008 3:10 AM PDT

Posted by: MadroKurgan
Hell, what i'd really like is a single shot BR with a 3-4 shot kill, with the same fire rate as the Halo 1 pistol.


So basically a non-duel wieldable pistol but faster firing? Duel wielding them would probably have the same effect. I'm not sure though.

  • 07.28.2008 3:44 AM PDT
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i think in customs yu should have a choice between a halo 2 type or 3 that would be nice

  • 07.28.2008 3:49 AM PDT
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oh my god! all the babys whining about the BR bullet spread! "oh noes i chant snowp wit teh BR no moarz!" get over it! it never wqas a snipers weapon anyways.

  • 07.28.2008 5:39 AM PDT

Multiplayer Gameplay
Halo:CE------------------Reach--------Halo2-----------------H alo3
Campaign Experience
Reach----Halo:CE-----------------ODST-----Halo2---------Halo3

Glad that Halo 3 garbage is dead, thanks to Reach.
Unfreakenbelievable!!

Posted by: MadroKurgan
Hell, what i'd really like is a single shot BR with a 3-4 shot kill, with the same fire rate as the Halo 1 pistol.

I would too. Unfortunately, for Bungie to have the range that they strive for with the BR they would have to make it shoot randomly similar to the Carbine. However, a random singel shot is horrible at pinging snipers, which is why they made the BR a 3-bullet burst fire.

  • 07.28.2008 6:40 AM PDT
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the b.r man thats like my favorite gun most of the time

  • 07.28.2008 6:48 AM PDT
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If cats land on their feet and toast lands butter-side-down, what happens if you strap a piece of toast to the back of a cat and drop it?

Posted by: TehAttak
Posted by: waters
The probably with Bungie tightening the BR spread is that Halo 3 will degenerate into Halo 2 and Halo CE.

In Halo CE, everyone used the pistol, or carried the pistol for their second weapon. It turned the majority of weapon battles into pistol battles.

In Halo 2, the same thing happened with the BR. You see an enemy, an enemy sees you. You both strafe while firing, and then one of you dies. Now that was often fun, but it also got old and made a lot of the encounters taste stale.

In halo 3, the looser BR spread forces people to work as teams to control various weapons. Someone has to snipe/lazer to give your team long distance fire power. The majority uses BR for the mid range combat. One or two use shotgun/AR/mauler for close range encounters.

If the BR spread is tightened, a lot more encounters are going to be the Halo 2 formula of BR-strafe-BR-strafe-someone dies. The looser BR spread forces people to utilize other weapons because the BR isn't ALWAYS the ideal weapon for every situation. The BR fulfills its role by being an excellent mid range weapon with mild usefulness at close and long range. Its all around, but not perfect for every situation (like Halo CE pistol and Halo 2 BR).

If you didn't read all that, here is a summary. The looser BR spread forces people to utilize other weapons, thus creating variety in encounters and more fun as a result.


Hmm... what version of Halo:CE were you playing? What you describe as happening in Halo Three happened (with me) in H:CE... Prisoner, the snipers and rockets were king; Chill Out, the Shotty and Rocks ruled the day, etc. I'll admit that H2 was mostly BR battles, just because of the insane auto-aim and animation glitches. However, H3 doesn't have to worry about of any of the unpalatable H2 issues: the coding is better, it is not physically possible.

Yes, I agree with the allocation of weapons being better for team-based games. However, the BR the way it is just leaves a hole in range between 12 WU and 30 WU. (End of guaranteed BR kills to sniping effective range.) Yes, the BR is now better suited to ONLY mid-range combat. However, my proposed changes mentioned earlier in this thread would only lengthen the BR's range--the sniper is still king over 30 WU, the AR king inside of 3. That's it.

The BR would not be the amazing reaping machine it was: it would still have spread and would now require headshots to make up for the reduction in spread for maximum efficiency kills.

In summation: Reducing the BR's spread and in turn requiring headshots would not break the balance of the game, nor would it change any dynamic of H3's gameplay much, if at all really.
It's just filling the current gap of range between 12 and 30 WU, which can only be touched by the Sniper, Beam Rifle, and Laser; and not effectively or easily. BR battles are still around, but there is reason to use the AR in beat-down to 30 feet, while the Sniper is still taking heads at 300 feet.

On a side note, is anyone negatively impacted by these proposed changes? I know several people (most siding with Mr. Bauer) that would love these changes. Perhaps they're not the majority; perhaps the majority is apathetic. Help some, hurt few/none. Just my two cents.


Your changes do not maintain balance, but shifts balance toward the Hardcore players who can headshot.

Look at maps like Standoff. With a tightened spread, people who spawn behind their bases could be within effective BR range from the other side of the map!

Everyone is right, there are more close and mid-range weapons with one or two super long distance weapons (lazer/sniper). Perhaps that mid-long range gap is necessary. On the maps that are actually large enough where BR spread will matter (Valhala, Sandtrap, Avalanche) vehicles help eliminate the need for a long range BR.

Lastly, it is far more likely for a person to miss a BR headshot do to human error than the loose spread.

  • 07.28.2008 7:32 AM PDT

I beat down a Scarab.

Actually the gun is better with the change. Sorry but its true. I recently played on a non modded version and realized that the old BR is worse than the new BR. My Apologies bungie, and now I see and respect the changes you have made to the BR.
(1) The Original BR had to long of a distance, making it impossible to escape the sniper accurate bullets.
(2) It was overpowered and almost a better version of a sniper rifle.
(3)The new changes make it so you have a chance of escape, and can't be dominated from miles away.

The changes were made to preserve the balance. Not disturb it.
The New BR, is better.

[Edited on 07.28.2008 7:35 AM PDT]

  • 07.28.2008 7:34 AM PDT
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If cats land on their feet and toast lands butter-side-down, what happens if you strap a piece of toast to the back of a cat and drop it?

Posted by: RapieR_iPro
No one wants to play a game were the outcome results from randomness, I actualy feel like never playing halo3 again because its the most irritating thing ever trying to play a shooter game when your gun is the biggest pile of wank ever. Which is a shame because I enjoyed playing halo1 and 2.

If yourselves and the bungie fan boys want to flame on how Im an idiot and the BR is perfect because you only use the assualt rifle, at the very minimum an option when creating your own playlist you should be able to change the amount of spread the BR gives its burst.

SAVE HALO3. FIX THE BR.


"No one wants to play a game where the outcome results from randomness."

Seriously? Every weapon in Halo (except the lazer maybe) has a RANDOM spread. Obviously, weapons like the AR, SMG, Plasma rifle, etc, have much more noticeable spreads. My point it is possible for an AR battle to be decided by random spread. Yet no one complains about the AR's spread.

Why not? Because the AR is a close-mid range weapon. Everyone knows this and accepts it. They use the BR for the close encounters and drop it when they need mid-long range weapon. They know what the AR is good for and use it for that.

So why complain about the BR? Why is everyone so uptight about the BR being "random" when every game in Halo has randomness built into its spread?

For some reason, people refuse to accept the BR for its role. The BR is mid range. If you can accept the AR as a purely close range weapon with an incredibly random spread, surely you can accept the BR as a mid range weapon with a tight, but still slightly random spread.

  • 07.28.2008 7:40 AM PDT
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If cats land on their feet and toast lands butter-side-down, what happens if you strap a piece of toast to the back of a cat and drop it?

Everyone who wants a Halo 2 BR spread should go play some H2 matchmaking and see how much they still like the BR.

Serious MLG types (the ones that actually win more than $5,000 from tourneys) will ultimately prefer the tighter spread, but I imagine the majority of people will feel as I do that:

The H2 BR has the spread of a sniper rifle, and that is too tight, permitting players to 3-shot kill you from distances similar to that of a sniper rifle.

  • 07.28.2008 7:46 AM PDT

The battlerifle is awsome its balanced perfectly looks a ok

  • 07.28.2008 7:52 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

A couple of random things, so bear with me. I've been watching this thread the past couple days and I wanted to see how the conversation would go without me "directing" it. Not surprisingly it has slowed tremendously. I was considering not even replying anymore since Bungie has said that AU 2 won't change the BR spread; let alone go anywhere near the BR. So here's a few things I'm going to talk about because I found them interesting.

Posted by: TehAttak
Hmm... what version of Halo:CE were you playing? What you describe as happening in Halo Three happened (with me) in H:CE... Prisoner, the snipers and rockets were king; Chill Out, the Shotty and Rocks ruled the day, etc. I'll admit that H2 was mostly BR battles, just because of the insane auto-aim and animation glitches. However, H3 doesn't have to worry about of any of the unpalatable H2 issues: the coding is better, it is not physically possible.


That really depends on whether or not he was playing Default or Team Slayer Pro. If you played either of those maps on Team Slayer Pro, the Pistol easily dominated because of where you could stand and use elevation to your advantage. On Prisoner I could stand up top, above the rocket spawn and 4/5SK most people on spawn. On Chilly I could stand with the sniper and M6D on "broken bridge" and control a wide amount of space. Or just go down to the curved hallway that leads back to the the teleporter and camp there. However, if he's playing Default, I'm pretty sure Prisoner had a plasma pistol default spawn weapon and I think Chilly was an AR start (could be wrong on this one). So if he's playing default, naturally those weapons would "rule" the M6D since there was maybe 1 M6D on Prisoner and 2 M6Ds on Chilly.

The fact that there was increased auto-aim and animation glitches was only part of why H2 degraded into repetitive BR-battles. Another key element was there was very few if no other weapon that could challenge the BR within the range in which it could be 100% effective. Second, the range that the BR could be 100% was incredibly huge. With those two things combined it made the player able to sit at a range in which no other weapon other than another BR or possibly a sniper rifle could challenge the opposing player. You could sit back at what would be roughly 20-23WUs and where no other weapon can challenge you and get 4SKs (if you had good aim and especially if you were on host). This makes it so there is almost NO inherent risk involved in using the BR. Especially if you are above-average aim. Which is why the gameplay turned into monotonous crap. And probably why they limited the range of the BR so much in H3.

Posted by TehAttack
On a side note, is anyone negatively impacted by these proposed changes? I know several people (most siding with Mr. Bauer) that would love these changes. Perhaps they're not the majority; perhaps the majority is apathetic. Help some, hurt few/none. Just my two cents.


Changing the weapon characteristics of 1 weapon while doing little to change the characteristics of other weaponry destroys weapon's balance. Case in point: Halo 2. Before the update to the H2 BR, it was a somewhat decent weapon at midrange that could get some kills if you were good with it. After the update to H2 for the BR, it completely dominated gameplay because of what I've already mentioned. It made it easy and effective to just "BR duel" at a distance where that's your only option. In addition, saying that changing the characteristics of the H3 BR while few would notice is wrong. Even the people who don't follow Bungie's moves by coming to B.net quickly learned that the BR had been changed just by its effects on Multiplayer. People were forced into using it not because they liked the gameplay it provided but because of necessity. After the BR fix in H2, they could no longer use various other weapons effectively and had to ditch them in order to be effective.

This promoted monotone gameplay. This ruined weapon's balance.

Saying that the "casuals" won't notice a H3 BR change is like saying the "competitives" wouldn't notice increasing the spread. Both groups are not naive. And even if Bungie did it without uttering a word about it, the change in gameplay would make people notice in due time. While it's easy to say that many would be in favor of "improving" the H3 BR, I can absolutely say that many would be completely opposed to it. I for one. And about everyone I play with on a regular basis. However, anecdotal stuff aside, Bungie will never really know how many people would be in favor of "improving" the BR compared to those against it. Taking a representative sample of the population in order to gauge that would be a tremendous waste of time and resources. Something they are not going to do at this juncture. Just like the melee "fix" there will always be people who are for it or against it. And (IMO) after seeing how negatively the melee fix has effected gameplay, I'm very much against another "fix".

Posted by MadroKurgan
Why make unskilled weapons [...]


This is a misnomer. There are absolutely NO "unskilled" weapons in Halo. Never have been never will be. Using such a biased statement is bad form. Now, there are weapons that require higher levels of aiming precision. That is not the only "skill" related to Halo. Some people fail to understand that concept. The tradeoff for having a weapon that requires higher levels of aiming precision is that they typically get to have larger ranges of effectiveness. For example, the total range of the BR in H3 is quite large and it's balanced because it is a weapon that requires moderate aiming precision. The sniper rifle, which requires more aiming precision gets a larger total range than even the BR. An AR, which requires less aiming precision than the BR has a smaller total range. Getting to a position where one weapon is better suited than another is strategic and skillful. Something a lot of people fail to understand. I know people are going to go nuts but "camping" with a shotgun around a corner is strategic and skillful. Is it precision aiming skillful? Hell no. Does that make it either unskillful or non-strategic? Hell no. If you keep dying to that camping shotty does that make you unskillful and non-strategic? Hell yes. Would the same be true if you kept running at a Sniper with a SMG when you know he has every advantage over you? Um yeah.

So-called "unskillful" weapons do not exist.

Posted by TehAttak
just so that within the red reticule (about 25 WU), the spread will not mitigate good aim and will be able to yield consistent four shot kills.


No weapon sans sniper is 100% effective at all ranges it is "red reticle". Making the BR able to consistently yield a 4SK at 25WUs is game-breakingly bad and NEVER should happen. It should never even be remotely close to that. So suggesting that the BR should be 100% effective "red reticule" when all other weapons but 1isn't like that is unbalanced.

Posted by Shakespeare212
So...7 wu doesn't seem too short to me. I know that's an opinion, but it's in response to your opinion as well.


I agree. 7WUs is the beginning of "mid range" for me. And not surprisingly you can *always* get a consistent 4SK with it at this range. Really up until 10WU you can consistently get 4SKs. Outside of this range, and pretty much everyone is operating on a 5SK. No where have I ever seen Bungie say that you are "promised" a 4SK at mid-range let alone all of the BR's range. Assuming you should get a consistent 4SK is really IMO illogical. Assuming you should get a 1SK with the shotgun at all ranges it is "red reticle" is IMO illogical.

1 Final thing. Can we please stop talking about latency? It effects all weapons, and not just the BR. It effects "shotgun duels" a whole lot more than it does "BR duels" but you don't see me asking for an alteration to the shotgun based upon it. Nor would I. I understand that weapons characteristics are normally done looking at above-average connection scenarios. To change a weapon based upon how it operates under bad connection (which inversely would further empower it during good connectivity) is not a good idea.

I'm glad Bungie is not looking to change the BR or the BR spread. It already is a fairly dominate weapon in H3 and I would hate to see that increased.

~B.B.

[Edited on 07.28.2008 8:29 AM PDT]

  • 07.28.2008 8:29 AM PDT

When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

stand 10 feet away from any wall you can clearly see the bullet holes your gun leaves in them . and then shoot a br burst strafe left a tiny bit shoot another and then strafe left another little bit and then go up close and look at how different the spread is in each one.
youll see that the br is foooked

  • 07.28.2008 1:30 PM PDT

Click here to get more publicity to your fileshare items!

The only thing I don't like is that
1 headshot + 1 melee = survive with shields down
1 melee + 1 headshot = dead

if 1 + 2 = 3, then 2 + 1 must equal 3 too if you know what I mean

  • 07.28.2008 1:34 PM PDT
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i have no complaints about BR what-so-ever

ppl just complain about it in threads because they've gotten destroyed one to many times by it.

  • 07.28.2008 2:04 PM PDT