- BerserkerBarage
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- Exalted Mythic Member
MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.
Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.
Posted by: TehAttak
Alright BB, time to get back into the swing of things.
You say that in H2, you really couldn't fight a BR with anything other than a BR or Sniper. As of now, at, say, 13 WU, you can only fight a BR with another BR, a Carbine, Sniper, Laser, or Beam Rifle if you expect to kill the guy. This is no different than Halo Two. However, at 20 WU, where the spread is so large as of now it's short of a miracle to kill someone in even five shots, you're only going to be using a Sniper, Beam, or a Laser, not in its intended range. This seems to be the exact same thing you noted with Halo Two, just even SHORTER range.
I think you missed what I was trying to say. Probably because I didn't explain it clear enough. In H2, the 100% effective range of the BR was incredible. Especially since it was a hitscan weapon. It made it so that it was easy and some-what safe to just sit at a distance of what would be 20WUs and be able to get consistent 4SKs if you were good. This left many people getting spawn-trapped and then spawn-killed ad naseum . Not exactly my idea of good gameplay. In H3, Bungie has NOT limited the range of the BR, only they have limited the 100% effective range of the BR. You can still kill people at 20WUs. You can. I do it all the time on Valhalla. The thing is, you'll expend a great deal of ammo doing so. I don't 4SK at 20WUs on Valhalla or any other map for that matter. I'm not saying that there isn't a point in range that the only effective counters for the BR are not another BR, Carbine, or Snipers/Splazer. There is. However, this point is far past the area where you can consistently 4SK. Meaning that to kill from this distance takes longer and will often afford a newly spawned player, or a player who cannot fight back a chance to take cover or gain their surroundings. If you want to 4SK in H3, you have to put yourself in a position where you can possibly lose to another weapon, let alone another BR. This, IMO, is better gameplay because it fosters more of a diverse experience than just BR-duels at 20WUs and seeing who could 4SK and who couldn't.
Next thing, you say that changing the BR would promote monotonous gameplay and break weapon balance. I disagree on both points. The BR cannot be used as an end-all be-all weapon anymore; due to the fact an AR or similar gun will own a BR user inside of 5 WU, and a Sniper will have the upper hand upwards of 30 WU. There are, and still would be, safeguards in the BR's design that prevent epic overextension of its range boundaries. On balance, what if I feel H3's weapon balance is suboptimal now, and changing the BR a little will augment that balance? I've already posted my explanation on why I feel like a BR change will help balance...
This really comes down to our opinions of "balance". I feel that the balance of weaponry is fine right now. The BR is a dominant weapon. Which is why it is used more than pretty much any other weapon. Making an already dominant weapon stronger does not make much sense to me in the form of weapon's balance. To me, that would be like suggesting that the rockets kill easier and faster. Again, not my idea of helping weapon's balance.
Onto the 'saying casuals won't notice,' line. I think you slightly misunderstood me. I said most people are apathetic and don't care. Also, if this thread is a reasonable benchmark (and it's all we've got for now,) many people do not notice the current spread, and have expressed indifference towards the gun. Very few have advocated against a change directly. But, I agree, we'll never really know the 'true' feeling of the Unique Users of Halo Three's opinion on the BR. Whatever the Bungie Multiplayer Design Team decides goes, simple enough.
Yes, apathy. It's a wonderful thing. The nice thing about apathy or the 'status quo' is that it really isn't noticed until you piss it off. Case in point: the so-called melee "fix". I was rather apathetic about how the melee worked in H3 when it shipped. Now after the "fix" I think it is one of the BIGGEST mistakes Bungie has ever made. It has harmed gameplay far more than it "fixed" it. I know several others that feel the same way. They were apathetic about the melee system originally and now absolutely HATE this new way.
So what's my point? While many people might be apathetic about the BR and its spread now, changing that system can change many of those people from apathetic to pure unbridled hatred. While there are obviously people on both sides that feel strongly for or against it, when you have a large group of people who at this point don't mind the "status quo" of the BR, changing it is illogical and a very big gamble. You could end up just like the melee "fix" with far more people frustrated with the system than you had originally.
All weapons require skill, true. Some require more skill than others. Glad to see we agree.
That's not quite what I said. I said that some weapons take more of a specific TYPE of skill than others. Like the BR takes more precision aiming skill than the AR does. I find it much harder to kill with the M6G than I do with the BR. Being good with the M6G and getting consistent kills is far more skillful IMO than getting kills with the BR. I think one of the easiest weapons in the game to use is the BR. It is easy to aim and it has an extensive range. My personal opinion, it takes more skill to be a good warthog driver than be a good BR user. Probably because I suck at driving because I use Legacy and I'm fairly decent with a BR.
Next, the red reticule statement. I find this just fallacious and factually wrong. The Shotgun and Mauler have a VERY short red reticule range (less than .5 WU I'd guess,) but will kill/knock shields out (default rules) inside this range save ≥800 mS latency. The Sword will lunge and kill in one fell swoop if in red reticule 100% of the time (barring collisions with map geometry, etc.) The needler in red reticule will have a large deal of guide on the missiles and will often yield a kill. The AR in red reticule will often kill in less than a clip (especially if you control the recoil and spread, then it's 100% capable of the minimum, sixteen bullet kill.) The BR is the ONLY gun in Halo Three that I have found that when scoped in red reticule, physically will not yield a maximum-efficiency kill because of its design.
Ohh, there's one thing I don't like being called, and that's a liar. Go try and use the shotgun on Cold Storage for example. At the end of 'red reticle' for the shotgun (it looks to be around 1.5 to 2 WUs) the shotgun most certainly WILL NOT kill in 1 shot. It won't even kill in 2 shots. It kills in 3. Don't believe me? Go do it yourself. At the end of 'red reticle' for the shotgun 1 shot will only knock off half shield. So the shotgun certainly IS NOT 100% effective within the distance it is 'red reticle'.
Oh, I tried to get a 16-bullet kill with the AR at the point where it is just inside of 'red reticle'. Maybe you are far better than I am, but I couldn't do it. Even when controlling for burst fire. Maybe you have better aim and patience than I do. If you can do it, put it on your file share. Until that point, I'm going to say that from my experience, that even when 'red reticle' the AR certainly IS NOT 100% effective within the distance it is 'red reticle'.
Now these are only the 2 weapons I tried out because you specifically mentioned them. I'm sure I could try out others and find the same thing. Saying that the BR should be 100% effective at a range where it is 'red reticle' while most if not all other weapons aren't the same way is illogical.
I would suggest refraining from saying I'm factually wrong unless you have the facts yourself. Asking for the BR to be 100% effective while it is 'red reticle' while most weapons are in the same boat is illogical. The shotgun takes 2 additional shots even at the distance it's red reticle; it certainly is not 100% effective.
~B.B.
[Edited on 07.29.2008 8:05 AM PDT]