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  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
Subject: The Only BR Thread
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people dont realise that there is a thing called 4 shotting. 3 body shots followed by a head shot.there practice that and stop complaining for the sake of complaining

  • 07.02.2008 3:53 AM PDT

Posted by: Suspended 4 24h
people dont realise that there is a thing called 4 shotting. 3 body shots followed by a head shot.there practice that and stop complaining for the sake of complaining


Do you even know what the BR spread is?

  • 07.02.2008 4:08 AM PDT
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i seldomly use the battle rifle but when i do SWAT *HEADSHOT*

  • 07.02.2008 4:53 AM PDT

DEEP NNN = Depends

Clan 2old2pwn on 2old2play.

Don't let yesterday use up too much of today.

I'm glad the BRats from MLGpro.com have been forced into posting in this topic.

I like the BR spread. It suits my lousy aim.

I like how bullets lost in flight are being refunded. Sounds like a bargain. Real soldiers in real battles don't have that luxury.

  • 07.02.2008 5:50 AM PDT

DEEP NNN = Depends

Clan 2old2pwn on 2old2play.

Don't let yesterday use up too much of today.

Posted by: Kirbeh
By the looks of it, their mlgpro.com forums doesn't even have any kind of BR sticky. Wow, impossible.
I noticed the same thing. The BR posts on MLGpro didn't get a lot of supportive attention from the members. It was the same BRats posting and re-posting over there calling everyone over here a Bnet kid. No stickies that I noticed. Imagine that. Not even MLGpro.com seems to support the BRats.

Did I forget to say, the BR is okay by me?

[Edited on 07.02.2008 6:03 AM PDT]

  • 07.02.2008 6:02 AM PDT
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i say we all play cod 4 lol... j/k

  • 07.02.2008 6:07 AM PDT
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Hey guys, I play a lot of MLG, customs mainly but sometimes the playlist.

I don't think the spread should be changed in anyway at all, because if I am getting at the very worst a 5 shot every time, what is wrong with it?

Most people who complain, complain because they are not very skilled with the BR, that isn't something that they should become better at because of it changing but because of practice with it.

That way there will be a lot more happy people, practice is all it takes to become skillfull, I can only get online on the xbox 2 days a week and I am still ok with the BR, so there really is NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER!

Thanks for reading :)

  • 07.02.2008 6:12 AM PDT

Posted by: TTL SWATTER
Hey guys, I play a lot of MLG, customs mainly but sometimes the playlist.

I don't think the spread should be changed in anyway at all, because if I am getting at the very worst a 5 shot every time, what is wrong with it?

Most people who complain, complain because they are not very skilled with the BR, that isn't something that they should become better at because of it changing but because of practice with it.

That way there will be a lot more happy people, practice is all it takes to become skillfull, I can only get online on the xbox 2 days a week and I am still ok with the BR, so there really is NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER!

Thanks for reading :)



Wow, so you're right. Your conclusive argument swayed me. Because I mean, if you can kill someone in 5 shots, it must be consistent. So there must not be a problem. Because they usually die in 5 shots, atleast in your case. So there isn't a problem. I have never come across such a compelling, conclusive argument.

Oh, and one more thing. I guarantee I am better then you, so don't play the skill card.

  • 07.02.2008 6:25 AM PDT

DEEP NNN = Depends

Clan 2old2pwn on 2old2play.

Don't let yesterday use up too much of today.

Posted by: BakedPotatoLive
Oh, and one more thing. I guarantee I am better then you, so don't play the skill card.
You should reshuffle your deck. Oh, and find some of the missing cards.

I like your appropriate GT by the way. I like the current BR more. It suits my spray and pray skills. Maybe that's because it was meant to suit the fun loving masses.

[Edited on 07.02.2008 6:35 AM PDT]

  • 07.02.2008 6:35 AM PDT
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thank goodness, we don't want a damn extra turret in H3.

  • 07.02.2008 6:47 AM PDT

Posted by: spartain ken 15
You guys care too much.

i dont think there really is a problem. people just want to complain

  • 07.02.2008 7:15 AM PDT
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I like the BR fine its been 10 months without us having a problem and somebody finds out this little fact and an epedimic occurs over every forum

  • 07.02.2008 7:30 AM PDT
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I personally find the "problem" with the BR is made as obvious as can be in Team Swat. If you can't already see the effects of the BR spread, do yourself a favor and rank up a bit in Team Swat (so you're not playing against complete mental patients), maybe into the 20s or 30s, and pay attentions to how random killing becomes at anything longer than a few feet away. You'll begin to notice yourself having full on BR battles, almost like you're playing a regular playlist, where you and the opponent take 5-6 shots at each other only to have one of you get lucky and have one hit. It's fairly ridiculous.

  • 07.02.2008 7:42 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Even if, and that's a big IF, Bungie made it so that the bullet spread each time had the same random properties you could still lose a BR fight because the other person's bullets appear to be "less random". Here's what I mean, let's say that each person's bullet #1 has a set definite randomness of .1 and bullet 2 is .2 and bullet 3 is .3. This random factor is the measure of how far the bullet deviates from the center of the reticule when fired. However, this measure is only the distance of deviation (scalar) and certainly not the direction of deviation (vector). There is no set standard of direction of deviation currently in the game and most certainly aren't suggesting it.

Meaning, that if your opponent is strafing from your left to your right and the direction of deviation of the bullet spread causes it to deviate to the left of your reticule you could miss additional shots. However, if your opponent is shooting at you while you are strafing from right to left and his direction of deviation makes his bullets spread left (ie "leading" you in your strafe) he could hit more shots than you even though the random deviation of the bullet spread is the same. Many people are arguing for a constant or reduced spread value range. It still wouldn’t make much of a difference than how it is now. The difference between a .15 and a .30 can be incredibly slight because it doesn’t make any distinction of the direction of that variation. Assuming that lowering the random spread range or making the deviation a constant amount will somehow make the game more reliable is operating upon a false assumption. Quite the non sequitur fallacy. As such it is incredibly wrong.

Now as to the part about the BR being listed as a medium to far range weapon. To me, it fits those criteria. The BR is effective in short, medium, and far ranges. You can shoot people pretty damn far with the BR, meaning that it is within its effective range. The difference comes between the "effective" range and what I call "ideal" and what Bungie calls "intended" range. While the shotty might be able to hit someone that is standing 10 feet away from you making it within its effective range, that obviously is not it's "ideal" or "intended" range. You could with enough shots kill someone with the shotty from that distance, however it's probably not a good idea. Likewise with the H3 BR the total "effective" kill range is rather large, since you can kill people at longer ranges, however to expect to be able to do so on a consistent basis is illogical. You are operating the weapon outside of its "ideal"/"intended" range and while it can still be effective it is far less likely to produce results. The "ideal"/"intended" range of the BR so that the bullet spread is indifferent is still outside of the "ideal"/"intended" range of all close quarter weaponry. The H3 BR is a medium to far range weapon however to achieve the best results you should operate the weapon within certain parameters (ie the "intended" range).

In addition the Assault Rifle IIRC is listed as having short to medium range. Why doesn’t the AR fire consistently at all of its listed range? The AR should fire and hit exactly the same at close and medium range if Bungie lists it as a close and medium range weapon in its description. I demand that if Bungie is going to list a weapon as having diverse range groups that it OBVIOUSLY work the same way in all of those range areas. Oh wait, that’s why the H2 BR was broken. Because it was a hitscan weapon and that regardless of range the weapon didn’t suffer any effectiveness reduction for it. However, there are countless other weapons in Halo 3 that don’t work the same way or as effectively in all ranges they can work in. The description simply gives the general area in which the weapon can be effective. The BR can be effective at short, medium, and far ranges. However, it’s ideal range is obviously somewhere in the middle. The AR is obviously effective and short and medium distances but obviously is ideally used in short range.

I would mention that all real-life weaponry have these designations. They list the total effective range of the weapon and the ideal range of the weapon. Take for example one of my personal favorites the USMC M40A3. It fires a 7.62x51MM NATO and has an "effective" range of up to 1000 yards. However, the listed "ideal" range is 200 yards shorter at 800 yards in a pristine scenario. While it is possible for the rifle to shoot 200 yards further than it's ideal range the ability to hit a target with any certainty is almost null. So while the weapon is effective up to 1000 yards the ideal or intended range of the weapon tops out at 800 yards in perfect conditions. Again, I know most of you don't like "realism" arguments or examples, but it isn't surprising to me that a rifle in a video game would have a larger "effective" range compared to its "ideal" range.


If MLG has a problem with how Halo 3 is developing why don’t they make their own game or contract out to a developer to make a game for them? It’s obvious that people at MLG fancy themselves as game developers. They've created maps, gameplay modifications, spawn points, weapon placements, etc. in Halo 3. They even promoted the use of glitches in Halo 2 which then increased the likelihood of people cheating in Halo 2. Thanks for that MLG.

Again, if MLG has a problem with how things are going...why not make their own game? They apparently think KKC is a good map designer (laughs hysterically) and they apparently think they know what makes good weapons balance (laughs hysterically) and apparently they think they know how the best way to play a FPS is (laughs hysterically). Again, nothing is stopping them from either making their own game or contracting out to a developing company to make the game for them.

But then again they're not going to do that. They'd much rather just take an existing game and twist it to meet most of their demands. They much rather just be parasitic when it comes to game development. What I think is rather humorous is that fact that Bungie allows them a considerable amount of adjusting in H3 via Forge that all other FPS right now don't allow. You can't adjust the speed of players in R6V2 or GOW. You can't adjust where they spawn or where weapons are placed. And for all the leeway that Bungie has given them with Halo 3, it still isn't enough to pacify them. Which is exactly why they should either develop their own game or realize that they aren't some spoiled child that's going to get everything they ask for.

Speaking of spoiled children, let's talk about DanBauer. You know what…it’s not worth it…moving on…

If I see one more person say that the “casual” community won’t notice and/or care about adjusting the BR to make it more “competitive” I swear to Jebus I will punch a kitten. That is the most idiotic thing I think anyone could say and in my opinion anyone who would make such statement is so far past brain-dead they ought to just turn them into Soylent Green now. While casual players might not be as vocal as their competitive counterparts that doesn’t mean they don’t realize when things change in gameplay. Just like the competitive players picked up on the fact that the H3 BR was different; it there was an alteration that made it “more competitive” essentially more “dominant” it would certainly affect ALL of the game, from competitives down to casuals. Making the H3 BR stronger by eliminating the bullet spread would be a tremendous mistake. One I’m glad Bungie has indicated that they have no intention of doing. We all saw how “adding” something that “aids” the BR in H2 destroys weapons balance. Animation glitches made it so the BR because a much more effective weapon. And look how quickly it dominated weapons balance and gameplay.

[continues]

  • 07.02.2008 7:59 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

[continued]

Now I've been saying this from the beginning of Halo 3 that the BR spread was intentional (based on statements from Bungie employees) and that it helped balance the weapon (which it does). I don't see why these recent revelations are so shocking to people? It was quite obvious that Bungie had spent considerable time working on the BR mechanics which included the BR bullet spread so why exactly did people act like it was accidental or the BR was mysteriously malfunctioning? A weapon doesn't just develop a random factor on it's own. So from the beginning here's how I dealt with it. I recognized that the BR didn't have the effective kill range that it did in H2 (for whatever reason; now I know it's because it's not a hitscan weapon). I then adjusted how I played in order to compensate for that! I realized that in a straight BR fight that I might not always be able to 4-shot someone even though I clearly should have. I then adjusted how I played in order to compensate for that! I'll use cover or grenades or equipment or a wide variety of things so that in a BR-fight with an opponent it doesn't get close enough that I could possibly lose depending on a variant factor. Much like how I'd never really risk going in for a melee (before and after the patch of that) because there was just too many factors to try to control outside of my power. So now is the H3 BR less "skillful"? No, it just makes you adjust your "skill" instead of just being able to rely on your ability to 4-shot everyone you see. It lessens one while making it so if you still want those results to increase "skill" in other areas. Seems like balancing to me...

One final thing since I'm running out of characters. I cannot believe people are still clamoring for one weapon that is good/decent in all areas. The "all-around". The M6D or something similar. If one weapon is good/decent in all areas...then why aren't all weapons good/decent in all areas? Oh wait that would mean that if there is a single weapon that is far more advantageous in more scenarios than the rest of the weaponry in the game...IT IS UNBALANCED! Why are we still quoting a hearsay statement made supposedly by John Howard? Why are even giving a damn what John Howard has to say about anything? He is no longer a Bungie employee and hasn’t been for quite awhile. Why don’t we go get Cliffy B’s or Ed Fries viewpoint on Halo 3 weapons balance and make an argument based upon that? Because it’s pointless. His viewpoints on the balance and weapon development of Halo 2 or Halo 3 is irrelevant since he had nothing to do with them. You have one former Bungie employee who thought that the weapon balance in HCE was acceptable. And quite honestly I’m glad that John Howard doesn’t work for Bungie anymore. He took his ideas of “balance” and gameplay to another company; made a game as their design lead and it FAILED so much so that the company itself went BANKRUPT and put the employees out of jobs. The only thing that Shadowrun demonstrates is that if you make a game that caters to a niche community it is likely to fail. You can make the game as “skillful” as you want but if the majority of the players don’t agree or don’t want to play then your game is a failure.

Back to the so-called “balance” of the M6D: there are quotes from current Bungie employees and their direction actions in removing the M6D that says to the contrary. The remaining members of Bungie (you know the ones that actually worked on the game) decided that the M6D was a broken unbalanced weapon in regards to the other weaponry in the game. They altered it into the H2 BR which was still unbalanced compared to the other weaponry in the game. So they altered it again into the current iteration in H3. I've seen countless times where Bungie employees have said that part of being good at Halo is being able to predict what scenarios you'll be in and having the weaponry to best work in those scenarios. Since you can only carry 2 (3 if you're using a support) weapons at a time the game makes you choose how you're going to fight. It's not like you have the "magic" numeric row on your keyboard that allows you to pull 8 guns out of your ass. In Halo 2, the BR especially with the use of glitches was a horribly broken and unbalanced weapon. Even sans glitches its effective kill range was huge compared to other weapons. While not quite as bad the M6D, it was pretty damn close. It dominated pretty much all other weapons in H2. Obviously Bungie wanted to get away from that. They've been moving away from the M6Ds and now the unbalanced BR since the beginning. So, what did they do? They made it so the H3 BR didn't have quite the effective/ideal kill range as it did in H2. You can still kill people at far distances but it is now much harder to do and maybe much less productive to use all that ammo on a player you may or may not kill. They said that if you want to kill someone at far distances use either the Sniper rifles or Splazer. If you want to kill in medium range use the BR/carbine. Close range you have a wide variety to pick from. It seems to me that in H3 that the roles of weaponry are much more defined than in either of the 2 previous games. There is no longer that considerable overlap where one weapon is encroaching on the role of another. To me, that's better weapons balance. I'm not saying that H3 is the pinnacle of weapon balance because it's not, but I am saying that it is far more balanced than the 2 previous Halo games.

One final thing. A quote from all the people who were talking about the introduction of BR-starts in Halo 3. They often said, "adapt or die". Well, to all the people complaining about the BR spread I offer you the same quote: "Adapt or die"

~B.B.

  • 07.02.2008 8:01 AM PDT

BRs in halo 3 are only good at medium rang it seams... but why complain about AR starts? thats why you go and play MLG... plus the MLG maps are good.

  • 07.02.2008 8:17 AM PDT
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I have never had a problem with it.
Ever.

  • 07.02.2008 9:22 AM PDT

Yeah, I guess you could say I play competitavely. (=

I really don't understand why so many people have a problem with the BR. Its like the new fad now. People act like the halo 2 BR took so much skill when in reality there was so much aim assist in halo 2 that it was basically about who pressed R four times first. If it wasn't for double shots and BxR's halo 2 would have been a complete failure for competitave play. People are always complaining about the spread and how its "random" who wins BR fights. After bungie released the mathematics behind the BR it became clear to me that your average MLG pro doesn't consistently out BR nearly everyone because he has a four leaf clover taped to his controller. Yes there is a small amount of luck in using the BR at longer distances but not enough to change the outcome of a BR vs BR battle (especially in MLG gametypes where damage is 110%) With this increase in damage in the MLG gametypes it slightly decreases the already small amount of luck involved in winning a BR dual.

CounterStrike 1.6 is the most competitave FPS to date IMO and alot of other peoples, and every single gun in that game has some sort of spread. Its the ability to adapt and manipulate that spread that will seperate great players from good players. Same goes with halo 3 to a certain extent. I still have yet to find a solid arguement about why the BR is so random that it actually has an effect of the outcome of battles/games.

  • 07.02.2008 9:24 AM PDT

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

The current Battle Rifle is uncomfortably inconsistant and thus blurs the line between good and great player. Random variables associated with its design decrease the amount of skill required, especially in situations where the enemy is one shot, but still have a bit of shields. The Halo 2 BR was only overpowered because of a poor standard starting weapon to compare it to, the numerous button combos, and a weak melee.

  • 07.02.2008 9:28 AM PDT

Yeah, I guess you could say I play competitavely. (=

IMO this also alot of variables that add more skill to use the BR in halo 3 then in halo 2. More so then the other way around. I'm willing to debate that if you have any sort of supporting arguement to present with your post.

  • 07.02.2008 9:32 AM PDT