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  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
Subject: The Only BR Thread

I dont understand why someone would whine about it, if its that bad go pick up an AR. (though the BR is obviously better)

  • 10.20.2008 7:57 PM PDT
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  • 10.20.2008 7:59 PM PDT

Posted by: Sane117
really, i think the only reason anybody ever has a problem with th BR is if they arent skilled with it and they wish they were cuz its ez to get owned by it. personally i luv it. its my fav gun. But when i first got Halo 2 and 3, i hated it. never used it at all. Then i got into MLG and competitive gaming and that all changed. Overall though, the BR seems to be the ultimate weapon. The golden gun, some may call it. Its range is perfect and the rate of fire matches it. Really, a skilled person with it can own an AR at short range. I have at least.


Well that means because I have a problem with the BR I am not skilled with it. I only have four level 50s you know but obviously I am not skilled with the BR.

Have you not noticed that the people who have a problem with the BR are the more skilled players. We know how the game should work but a lot of the time it doesn't work that way. The BR isn't too bad on host because you have such a big advantage over other players however if your not host it is horrible. Besides that the random spread makes mid-long range battles random, especially long range these are so random it's ridiculous.

Just go play SWAT and see how bad the BR is, it is exactly the same in other playlists just less noticeable because it isn't a 1 shot kill.

  • 10.21.2008 3:01 AM PDT
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lol this is what i hate. bungie made the game let you play it and people still complain... Br spread blah blah blah a skilled player can make all 3 shots hit everytime.

  • 10.21.2008 5:21 AM PDT
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Posted by: Sane117
really, i think the only reason anybody ever has a problem with th BR is if they arent skilled with it and they wish they were cuz its ez to get owned by it. personally i luv it. its my fav gun. But when i first got Halo 2 and 3, i hated it. never used it at all. Then i got into MLG and competitive gaming and that all changed. Overall though, the BR seems to be the ultimate weapon. The golden gun, some may call it. Its range is perfect and the rate of fire matches it. Really, a skilled person with it can own an AR at short range. I have at least.


your wrong about one thing. the [people that are bad at the game will make it worse. if bungie makes a new br and the pros pick it up you better be ready to switch to cod4 br h8ers.

  • 10.21.2008 5:22 AM PDT
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When you ask solely for spread REDUCTION, you do realize the argument is hypocritical. You aren't really arguing for reduced randomness, you're arguing for that randomness to be pushed back. So now you still have randomness, just at farther levels, showing me you just want to own people farther away. That's fine, just argue for that. Unless you'd have pinpoint shots. You need to ask for randomness to be taken out of the shots. Even if there is significant spread to control distance, you can account for this and adjust if there isn't random spread.

  • 10.21.2008 5:24 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: fifthderelicte
When you ask solely for spread REDUCTION, you do realize the argument is hypocritical. You aren't really arguing for reduced randomness, you're arguing for that randomness to be pushed back. So now you still have randomness, just at farther levels, showing me you just want to own people farther away. That's fine, just argue for that. Unless you'd have pinpoint shots. You need to ask for randomness to be taken out of the shots. Even if there is significant spread to control distance, you can account for this and adjust if there isn't random spread.


Let alone the fact that the BR spread mechanic is a vector and not a scalar. They could reduce the mathematical numbers of the spread and it could (hypothetically) be just as "random" as it was before. Because if a bullet decides to spread right and your opponent moves left, you'll miss him regardless of whether the max value was .1 or .08.

As Fifth here said, reducing the spread would not do anything to reducing perceived randomness. All it would do would create an area in which the BR is the only weapon that can be used. Something that Breezy was complaining about.

~B.B.

  • 10.21.2008 7:43 AM PDT

If the spread of the Br was more like real life (which apparently they were going for) it would be alright. The distribution in real life is a Gaussian distribution for all three bullets usually (but not always) centers around a mean that is the same for all three bullets. The problem with the Halo 3 Br is that the 2nd and 3rd bullets are far more random than the first bullet (usually) and therefore the realism argument is shot down and there is inconsistency in the game.

Anyways - the Br's spread isn't as game changing as people make it out to be (the principles of the randomness in a competitive video game aside). It's the hit registration online (and occasionally offline in some cases) that is the real issue with the Br. It is by far the worst online experience I have had with any game I've ever played. It's just so frustrating that a simple thing to correct like bullet refund would exist. I mean - loss of packets will occur in any video game. It's just the way it's dealt with in Halo 3 that's frustrating - I mean, I get a bullet back? Thanks - really needed that bullet, oh wait, I'm dead? And all they would have had to do was "predict" in some way (if it was the 2nd/3rd bullet, and the 1st bullet hit, they could just say that the 2nd/3rd bullet hit) where that shot was going to hit. A first year computer science major (and I'm not one) could provide an algorithm for that - and yet we are led to believe that Bungie's programmers are some of the best, if not the best, gaming programmers in the industry.

Oh - and the reason why I believe H3 is so laggy all the time (I'm not positive, this is just a theory) is the game has some hybrid of client-side server detection (lag compensation techniques, but really only regarding the host) and server-side hit detection. You don't have to lead farther on bad hosts - but you do have to lead slightly differently on each host. However - you also can get "walled" which means you can hide behind a wall and die anyways because the person shooting at you killed you on their screen. This is client side hit detection. Anyways - it's probably way too complicated of a system to debug, and while it probably would have worked well in principle, I mean, server side hit detection works the best for good hosts, client side works best for only decent hosts so combining the two might work well. Anyways - we all see that it really couldn't work well - so I think they probably should have just picked client-side hit detection, if they didn't want to spend any money on servers.

So essentially - combined with -blam!- netcode is the random Br - and we have the inconsistent -blam!-box that is H3 on Live today...

What makes this even worse is that any game will ship with bugs / problems - it's just apparently Microsoft doesn't believe in patches or something. I mean - one patch (and AU2 doesn't count as a patch, in my eyes it doesn't even count as much of anything at all) in one year of this game being out is terrible. It honestly is - especially with the myriad of problems it has. So, if someone at Bungie is reading this - stop reading this and get your ass in gear to fix the netcode problems because they are facking retarded.

  • 10.21.2008 9:58 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: the_overmaster
[...]The distribution in real life is a Gaussian distribution for all three bullets usually (but not always) centers around a mean that is the same for all three bullets.[...]


No, it's not. Bullet deviation has nothing to do with or even closely resemble Gaussian distribution and while you will certainly receive incredible outliers the system itself is typically not "bell-curve" distributed. Why you would even think this is beyond me. That's not even including the change in other independent variables such as windspeed and barometric that would change the distribution incredibly.

Short version: The distribution of burst fire weapons is NOT an example of Gaussian distribution.

The rest of your post? *yawn*

~B.B.

  • 10.21.2008 10:11 AM PDT

.

Carbine pwns BR

  • 10.21.2008 1:31 PM PDT

I wants BR all time any time oh yeah

  • 10.21.2008 1:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: the_overmaster
If the spread of the Br was more like real life (which apparently they were going for) it would be alright. The distribution in real life is a Gaussian distribution for all three bullets usually (but not always) centers around a mean that is the same for all three bullets. The problem with the Halo 3 Br is that the 2nd and 3rd bullets are far more random than the first bullet (usually) and therefore the realism argument is shot down and there is inconsistency in the game.

Anyways - the Br's spread isn't as game changing as people make it out to be (the principles of the randomness in a competitive video game aside). It's the hit registration online (and occasionally offline in some cases) that is the real issue with the Br. It is by far the worst online experience I have had with any game I've ever played. It's just so frustrating that a simple thing to correct like bullet refund would exist. I mean - loss of packets will occur in any video game. It's just the way it's dealt with in Halo 3 that's frustrating - I mean, I get a bullet back? Thanks - really needed that bullet, oh wait, I'm dead? And all they would have had to do was "predict" in some way (if it was the 2nd/3rd bullet, and the 1st bullet hit, they could just say that the 2nd/3rd bullet hit) where that shot was going to hit. A first year computer science major (and I'm not one) could provide an algorithm for that - and yet we are led to believe that Bungie's programmers are some of the best, if not the best, gaming programmers in the industry.

Oh - and the reason why I believe H3 is so laggy all the time (I'm not positive, this is just a theory) is the game has some hybrid of client-side server detection (lag compensation techniques, but really only regarding the host) and server-side hit detection. You don't have to lead farther on bad hosts - but you do have to lead slightly differently on each host. However - you also can get "walled" which means you can hide behind a wall and die anyways because the person shooting at you killed you on their screen. This is client side hit detection. Anyways - it's probably way too complicated of a system to debug, and while it probably would have worked well in principle, I mean, server side hit detection works the best for good hosts, client side works best for only decent hosts so combining the two might work well. Anyways - we all see that it really couldn't work well - so I think they probably should have just picked client-side hit detection, if they didn't want to spend any money on servers.

So essentially - combined with -blam!- netcode is the random Br - and we have the inconsistent -blam!-box that is H3 on Live today...

What makes this even worse is that any game will ship with bugs / problems - it's just apparently Microsoft doesn't believe in patches or something. I mean - one patch (and AU2 doesn't count as a patch, in my eyes it doesn't even count as much of anything at all) in one year of this game being out is terrible. It honestly is - especially with the myriad of problems it has. So, if someone at Bungie is reading this - stop reading this and get your ass in gear to fix the netcode problems because they are facking retarded.


I read until you started talking about the bullet spread and then stopped. It wouldn't make any sense for them to have made the bullets all hit int the same place no matter what. That would COMPLETELY defeat the purpose of having a burst-fire weapon. Why not make if semi-auto matic in that case? No, the reason that the bullets should all be separate is that this is a situation in which being more realistic is beneficial and just because you can't use this spread of the bullets to your advantage doesn't mean you should go on some rant about how bungie sucks. You are just complaining about something because you don't have it your way. This isn't BurgerKing. ADAPT. Learn to use these things to your advantage!

  • 10.21.2008 2:48 PM PDT
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Posted by: Prodigy117
Posted by: Sane117
really, i think the only reason anybody ever has a problem with th BR is if they arent skilled with it and they wish they were cuz its ez to get owned by it. personally i luv it. its my fav gun. But when i first got Halo 2 and 3, i hated it. never used it at all. Then i got into MLG and competitive gaming and that all changed. Overall though, the BR seems to be the ultimate weapon. The golden gun, some may call it. Its range is perfect and the rate of fire matches it. Really, a skilled person with it can own an AR at short range. I have at least.


Well that means because I have a problem with the BR I am not skilled with it. I only have four level 50s you know but obviously I am not skilled with the BR.

Have you not noticed that the people who have a problem with the BR are the more skilled players. We know how the game should work but a lot of the time it doesn't work that way. The BR isn't too bad on host because you have such a big advantage over other players however if your not host it is horrible. Besides that the random spread makes mid-long range battles random, especially long range these are so random it's ridiculous.

Just go play SWAT and see how bad the BR is, it is exactly the same in other playlists just less noticeable because it isn't a 1 shot kill.
duh.... br isnt meant for extreme range if you use it at the wrong range its going to fail just like if you try to use an smg at carbine range its going TO FAIL EPICLY

  • 10.21.2008 5:18 PM PDT

The best change for the BR would be.... A SUPER SMOOTHIE MAKER attachment. That would make my day. No, just kidding. I Like the BR the way it is. Every who says it's not consistent then you don't really have a thorough understanding. (Unless you do and you're just misunderstood)

In real life would you make every shot perfect? I'm not kidding here. If you were to shoot a gun at a wall would it hit the same place over and over again? That's what I thought. (Or did I?)

  • 10.21.2008 6:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: DarknessCalls1
I read until you started talking about the bullet spread and then stopped. It wouldn't make any sense for them to have made the bullets all hit int the same place no matter what. That would COMPLETELY defeat the purpose of having a burst-fire weapon. Why not make if semi-auto matic in that case? No, the reason that the bullets should all be separate is that this is a situation in which being more realistic is beneficial and just because you can't use this spread of the bullets to your advantage doesn't mean you should go on some rant about how bungie sucks. You are just complaining about something because you don't have it your way. This isn't BurgerKing. ADAPT. Learn to use these things to your advantage!


You are perfectly correct. However, you have to understand that MLG wants a skilled weapon, meaning one without randomness. As a burst weapon, the way it was intended, the BR should never fit that role. The carbine or magnum are the weapons that would do that, and MLG would not like the magnum, as it would never compete with a sniper. The solution would be simple, if you'd tweak the carbine to not be random and allowed it as a starting weapon, which can obviously not happen. We're really left with something where MLG won't be happy as things stand, and regulars won't be happy if things are changed.

BR SUCKS! Carbine FTW!

  • 10.22.2008 5:13 AM PDT

Posted by: Shadow Wolf7347

duh.... br isnt meant for extreme range if you use it at the wrong range its going to fail just like if you try to use an smg at carbine range its going TO FAIL EPICLY


Well duh you don't spawn with a sniper rifle duh so you have to use a BR duh and when you shoot somebody else at mid-long range they will probably shoot back duh with a br if they don't have a sniper duh and then where each others bullets land will be heavily random duh so obviously this encounter will result in an outcome affected by random fators duh... clearly this method of range limitation is somewhat flawed duh.

To everybody saying a skilled player can land all 3 bullets they cannot it is impossible at certain ranges (by no means extreme) because of the amount of spread and the randomness of it, wherever you aim it is possible that 1 or 2 bullets will miss over a certain range. Please have a clue about what you're talking about before posting.

[Edited on 10.22.2008 5:18 AM PDT]

  • 10.22.2008 5:16 AM PDT

Does anyone even read these?

I think the problem is is that Halo 3 isn't as fast paced as Halo: CE so they have to make the BR like this.....it's hard to explain.

[Edited on 10.22.2008 5:21 AM PDT]

  • 10.22.2008 5:21 AM PDT
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BR > AR

/.....discussion?

  • 10.22.2008 7:12 AM PDT
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they should make the pistol more like the br

  • 10.22.2008 7:28 AM PDT
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Posted by: BerserkerBarage
All it would do would create an area in which the BR is the only weapon that can be used. Something that Breezy was complaining about.

My complaint with the Battle Rifle is both its random tendencies and its accuracy. The random tendencies really can alter the outcome of a BR duel beyond what a player can control, and the accuracy leaves much to be desired - to the point that, beyond a certain range, it takes at least five or six shots to kill someone.

If there was a way to noticeably decrease random tendencies and increase the accuracy, such as firing the weapon a certain way, I wouldn't mind. But no matter how you fire the weapon, its consistency and accuracy are not considerably altered.

And as to the "only weapon that can be used"... I'm pretty sure that the Battle Rifle is already the most widely used weapon, and that making it more consistent would not make the Needler less devastating or the Carbine fire its rounds slower. The Sniper Rifle, for instance, is very accurate and consistent, yet it is not the only weapon that can be used at medium range.

  • 10.22.2008 12:59 PM PDT

"You could've had a V8...now it's too late!"

I am de pwnzorz with the BR and AR. BR is only useful when aiming for the head while shooting.

  • 10.22.2008 2:20 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Breezy131
My complaint with the Battle Rifle is both its random tendencies and its accuracy. The random tendencies really can alter the outcome of a BR duel beyond what a player can control, and the accuracy leaves much to be desired - to the point that, beyond a certain range, it takes at least five or six shots to kill someone.

If there was a way to noticeably decrease random tendencies and increase the accuracy, such as firing the weapon a certain way, I wouldn't mind. But no matter how you fire the weapon, its consistency and accuracy are not considerably altered.

And as to the "only weapon that can be used"... I'm pretty sure that the Battle Rifle is already the most widely used weapon, and that making it more consistent would not make the Needler less devastating or the Carbine fire its rounds slower. The Sniper Rifle, for instance, is very accurate and consistent, yet it is not the only weapon that can be used at medium range.


All weapons take more shots after a certain point. Even the sniper rifle. The BR is the most widely used weapon because it has the widest effective range while being readily available. If you could make it so that you could spawn 12 or 14 sniper rifles on ever map those would more than likely fight the BR for the "most used" spot.

You complained that the BR leaves an area in mid-far range that makes it impossible to fight against the sniper rifle. However, with people suggesting to "reduce" the BR spread it would make it so that there was a range at which there would be nothing to compete with the BR. Which was my point. Reducing the BR spread (which wouldn't make a damn bit of difference) would only create another example of what you were already complaining about.

For all the people complaining about "randomness" and then suggesting a reduction to BR spread is idiotic. Reducing the spread doesn't reduce "randomness". Only eliminating it would and that will never and should never happen.

~B.B.

  • 10.22.2008 4:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: BerserkerBarage[
You complained that the BR leaves an area in mid-far range that makes it impossible to fight against the sniper rifle. However, with people suggesting to "reduce" the BR spread it would make it so that there was a range at which there would be nothing to compete with the BR.

Why, exactly, would weapons like the Sniper Rifle or Laser be unable to compete with the Battle Rifle if the spread was reduced? Even if the Battle Rifle was pin point accurate, the Sniper/Laser would still be one/two shot kills. Supposing two enemies are facing off at medium-long range, one has a BR and one has a Sniper, the one with the Sniper is still far more likely to win.

Reducing the BR spread (which wouldn't make a damn bit of difference)
But (and I do also argue for the elimination of randomness) reducing the spread would "push" the random tendencies closer or into long range. Thus, random tendencies would only be noticeable at long range. They're noticeable at ranges much closer than long range right now.

For all the people complaining about "randomness" and then suggesting a reduction to BR spread is idiotic.
I suggested both.

Reducing the spread doesn't reduce "randomness". Only eliminating it would and that will never and should never happen.
Why? Why should the game not react consistently to players' actions?

  • 10.22.2008 5:03 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Breezy, you're asking for the M6D. You can't have it. It's a broken weapon. It breaks weapon's balance. It or something like it will never come to Halo again.

Again, why should there be any bullet spread at all? Why should the game make bullets go places the player isn't aiming? That goes from the AR to the Shotgun to the BR? Why has Bungie been using spread since the days of Marathon? Why are we still shocked that they would use this when it's in all 3 Halo games and it was in all 3 Marathon games?

You complain about the ineffectiveness of the AR against a BR and yet turn around and suggest ways to make the BR far stronger than the AR and pretty much every other weapon. Your suggestions would only exacerbate the problems you're already complaining about. Which is why it will never happen. Implementing your suggestions would break weapon's balance just like cheating in H2 using animation glitches did and just like the M6D did to HCE weapon's balance.

~B.B.

  • 10.23.2008 10:53 AM PDT
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  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Breezy, you're asking for the M6D. You can't have it. It's a broken weapon. It breaks weapon's balance. It or something like it will never come to Halo again.

I don't know how the M6D is broken; and I also don't know how making the Battle Rifle consistent and more accurate would make it the M6D. It would still be a burst weapon, and it would still take four shots to kill.

Again, why should there be any bullet spread at all? Why should the game make bullets go places the player isn't aiming? That goes from the AR to the Shotgun
Because weapons should behave differently. If every weapon had pinpoint accuracy there would be no point in picking up other weapons, particularly since the AR and Shotgun are generally easier to aim than the Battle Rifle.

If the Battle Rifle was pinpoint accurate it would not make the Sniper Rifle useless. The Sniper Rifle is still a one or two shot kill; it is much faster and much more reliable long range weapon than a pinpoint BR would be. People would still pick it up. But if every weapon was pinpoint accurate, no one would care to pick up Battle Rifles or Carbines or Needlers or whatever. Assault Rifles and Shotguns can kill faster than a Battle Rifle can, despite their incapacity to inflict headshots.

You complain about the ineffectiveness of the AR against a BR and yet turn around and suggest ways to make the BR far stronger than the AR and pretty much every other weapon
The Ar is not ineffective against the Battle Rifle in its intended range, close range. I think that people should start with a medium range weapon. Increasing the accuracy and consistency of the Battle Rifle would not decrease the time it takes to fire it four times, or make the Assault Rifle somehow useless close range, since at that range they are both very consistent.

Other weapons would not be useless either. The Sniper Rifle, with its 10x scopes and one/two shot kills, would still be the coveted long range weapon, the Shotgun a coveted close range weapon, the Rocket Launcher a coveted power weapon.

Implementing your suggestions would break weapon's balance
Break it how? All weapons would still be useful in their respective niches. In case you were wondering, Spikers and Plasma Rifles are underused because they are effective in so little a number of situations, not because the Battle Rifle is too powerful.

just like the M6D did to HCE weapon's balance
The M6D was a godsend. A pity Bungie didn't bring it back, at least in Forge.

You haven't answered my question: Why should control be taken from the hands of the player? This is exactly why I support BR starts. Players should have the ability to make a meaningful comeback the moment they spawn as opposed to sitting around, twiddling their thumbs while they wait for their enemies to go away or for a versatile weapon to respawn. And it's exactly why I believe the Battle Rifle should be changed. Players should have the ability to fight back against an enemy with a Sniper Rifle, instead of pinging him out of scope and retreating behind cover before he can scope in again.

  • 10.23.2008 2:06 PM PDT