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This topic has moved here: Subject: The Only BR Thread
  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
Subject: The Only BR Thread

Posted by: TheBigShow
Posted by: Nerd Boi
Would you fire a rocket at someone on the other side of the map? Would you try to use a shotgun on someone 20 metres away? If you did, you would get screwed by the mechanic because you made a mistake in tactics. Similarily if you attempt to engage someone outside of the BR's optimal range then your screwup in tactics results in you being screwed by the mechanics. I'm guessing you already do take into account weapon mechanics when approaching situations, which is why you wouldn't fire a rocket at someone halfway across the map.


You're confusing the issue here. We're not complaining because we don't understand that the BR has an "optimal range." We're complaining because we feel that range is much too short. Most of the time, you are forced to engage outside that optimal range due to the way the game plays out. The weapons aren't properly facilitating the gameplay, and thats a bad thing.

The game would benefit in so many areas if the range was opened up, rather than the close range cluster-**** we have now. Every single weapon aside from the sniper and lazer have a max range of about 20 meters. Thats bad for gameplay, as it focuses it only on one aspect in a game that should allow people to play in all areas.

Whatever happened to Halo being played how you want it? Why am I forced, by the poor design choices, to play a close range game when its not always the best way to play? There a plenty of methods to give the BR longer range while simultaneously making it more diffucult to use, which would alleviate almost all the problems people are having.

Why are we given beautiful, open maps with great lines of sight and angles and then forced to charge each other spraying our weapons until we get into the ridiculously short "optimal range?" Why can't we have a weapon that allows mid-range players to play at mid-range while close-range fighters can use their "tactics" to effectively use all the close-range options they have?


/thread and /Bungie's design choices - try to argue against that! Nice job BigShow.

  • 10.29.2008 11:20 AM PDT

its not a bad gun,but its just used way too often.

[Edited on 10.29.2008 11:32 AM PDT]

  • 10.29.2008 11:31 AM PDT

Posted by: LIVEmemberJeff
its not a bad gun,but its just used way too often.


Its used way too often and way too effectively because its too easy to use. Bungie needs to tone down the bullet magnetism and the spread. The spread allows players to aim off of the enemy and still score a hit, effectively making it easier to use than it already is with the slow players and bullet and reticle magnetism.

Scoring a four shot kill should be a rare thing, based on skill, not an every encounter occurance based on luck and the game aiming for you.

[Edited on 10.29.2008 11:40 AM PDT]

  • 10.29.2008 11:39 AM PDT

L¡nks...

~501st United
~ÆtherCore
~Terran Empire

Magic: The Gathering FTW

People are mad because you have to good to use it, I still need to get more BR kills at the beginning I only used the AR because I used to be really horrible at Halo 3 and now I'm just trying to work off that slack.

  • 10.29.2008 12:55 PM PDT

Posted by: Omega Mrk XII
People are mad because you have to good to use it, I still need to get more BR kills at the beginning I only used the AR because I used to be really horrible at Halo 3 and now I'm just trying to work off that slack.


No, the problem is that you DON'T have to be good to reap the full benefits of the BR. There's no reward for the skilled and no punishement for being unskilled. It creates a game where there is little true balance and one that gets boring earlier in its lifespan.

  • 10.29.2008 1:08 PM PDT

Halo: CE > > Halo 3 > Halo: Reach = Halo 2

Posted by: the_overmaster
Posted by: TheBigShow
Posted by: Nerd Boi
Would you fire a rocket at someone on the other side of the map? Would you try to use a shotgun on someone 20 metres away? If you did, you would get screwed by the mechanic because you made a mistake in tactics. Similarily if you attempt to engage someone outside of the BR's optimal range then your screwup in tactics results in you being screwed by the mechanics. I'm guessing you already do take into account weapon mechanics when approaching situations, which is why you wouldn't fire a rocket at someone halfway across the map.


You're confusing the issue here. We're not complaining because we don't understand that the BR has an "optimal range." We're complaining because we feel that range is much too short. Most of the time, you are forced to engage outside that optimal range due to the way the game plays out. The weapons aren't properly facilitating the gameplay, and thats a bad thing.

The game would benefit in so many areas if the range was opened up, rather than the close range cluster-**** we have now. Every single weapon aside from the sniper and lazer have a max range of about 20 meters. Thats bad for gameplay, as it focuses it only on one aspect in a game that should allow people to play in all areas.

Whatever happened to Halo being played how you want it? Why am I forced, by the poor design choices, to play a close range game when its not always the best way to play? There a plenty of methods to give the BR longer range while simultaneously making it more diffucult to use, which would alleviate almost all the problems people are having.

Why are we given beautiful, open maps with great lines of sight and angles and then forced to charge each other spraying our weapons until we get into the ridiculously short "optimal range?" Why can't we have a weapon that allows mid-range players to play at mid-range while close-range fighters can use their "tactics" to effectively use all the close-range options they have?


/thread and /Bungie's design choices - try to argue against that! Nice job BigShow.

And your point is?

  • 10.29.2008 5:14 PM PDT
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it it took skill 5 kills in a row with it would get you a specific! spree not just killing spree you got sniper sprees and splatter sprees br is nearly skilless it right next to the ar thats why we start with it

  • 10.29.2008 6:54 PM PDT
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My attitude with the br is that it is what is ruining Halo.

Bungie listens to the people who have a stiffy for the BR, and no one else.
There's guns for the job. BR is just about never right. BR tards like to complain about shotgun camping. Remember when there was a shotgun on Narrows? Yeah, betcha it was people complaining that the shotgun "OMG KILLS ME WHEN I HAVE A BR I SHOULD WIN I HAVE A BR DAMNIT!"
You ran into my shotgun 5 times, I got a killing spree off you alone because YOU ARE DUMB.

  • 10.29.2008 7:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: sephy26946
Bungie listens to the people who have a stiffy for the BR, and no one else.

This should be indisputable proof that you are blind. And yet you still somehow managed to type this...

BR tards like to complain about shotgun camping.
Yeah - that's exactly what the past 90 pages of this thread has been about.

Remember when there was a shotgun on Narrows? Yeah, betcha it was people complaining that the shotgun "OMG KILLS ME WHEN I HAVE A BR I SHOULD WIN I HAVE A BR DAMNIT!"
No one to the best of my knowledge ever campaigned for Narrows to be changed.

You ran into my shotgun 5 times, I got a killing spree off you alone
That's exactly why people are complaining about the BR, of course.

YOU ARE DUMB
A fairly accurate assessment judging from your post.

  • 10.29.2008 7:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: Breezy131
Posted by: sephy26946
Bungie listens to the people who have a stiffy for the BR, and no one else.

This should be indisputable proof that you are blind. And yet you still somehow managed to type this...

BR tards like to complain about shotgun camping.
Yeah - that's exactly what the past 90 pages of this thread has been about.

Remember when there was a shotgun on Narrows? Yeah, betcha it was people complaining that the shotgun "OMG KILLS ME WHEN I HAVE A BR I SHOULD WIN I HAVE A BR DAMNIT!"
No one to the best of my knowledge ever campaigned for Narrows to be changed.

You ran into my shotgun 5 times, I got a killing spree off you alone
That's exactly why people are complaining about the BR, of course.

YOU ARE DUMB
A fairly accurate assessment judging from your post.


Just about every update is geared towards the BR.
The shotgun was removed from narrows. The Boundless and Epilouge were released to stop camping. Again, you run into someone 5 times that has a gun that's powerful in close combat, that's 5 kills earned.

  • 10.29.2008 7:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: sephy26946
Just about every update is geared towards the BR.

Not really. I don't know how removing a Shotgun from Narrows, or removing shield doors, was geared towards the BR. The shield doors were removed to speed up gameplay.

Again, you run into someone 5 times that has a gun that's powerful in close combat, that's 5 kills earned.
So what? That has nothing to do with the Battle Rifle. That has to do with camping, and generally slowing down the game to the point that the rate at which grass grows is faster.

  • 10.29.2008 8:00 PM PDT
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Ignoring the monkey in the room: The Br is a power weapon. You shouldn't spawn with it, and there should be 2 or 3 to a map, max.

  • 10.29.2008 8:39 PM PDT

Posted by: sephy26946
Ignoring the monkey in the room: The Br is a power weapon. You shouldn't spawn with it, and there should be 2 or 3 to a map, max.
Spawning with a useless weapon does not make the game balanced. In high level play, you are at an enormous disadvantage without a BR. A common thread of advice I've received from players much better then me is "the AR is useless, get a BR as soon as you can." The AR just doesn't have the range to team shoot, or defend from snipers. It is also very inefficient at finishing off kills left over from teammates. Spawning with a BR gives skilled players a fair chance to win an encounter right off the spawn.

Anyway, this thread is about the BR spread, not whether we should spawn with them or not.

  • 10.29.2008 9:41 PM PDT

Sgt. Avery Johnson is actually Jesus in shapeshifter mode

Posted by: Achronos
Due to the incessant amount of spam and repeat posting about the topic of the design of the Battle Rifle in Halo 3, all threads about it will be locked on sight and the author warned (then banned if they keep doing it). Please discuss the BR and your thoughts in this thread and this thread alone.

For reference, Bungie's response to all comments and complaints about the design of the Battle Rifle can be found in the weekly update for June 20th, 2008.

People expecting further Bungie responses on the issue are likely to be disappointed.


I like the BR the way it is. I just learned that it dominates halo 3! in MLG. My quotes about the BR "the weapon of Domination/Mass destruction".

  • 10.30.2008 5:10 AM PDT
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IT NEEDS 2 B DUELWIELDABLE PEW PEW

  • 10.30.2008 8:36 AM PDT
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There is not a damn thing wrong with the halo 3 BR! It is a weapon that can be very overpowering if you are using it right!! Besides Power Weapons the BR is a very powerful weapon on its own, and believe me when i say that your not just going to pick up the BR and pawn kids with it the first time! It is a weapon that takes a lot of practice to perfect! A 4 Shot BR doesn't come easily! Keep Practicing!

  • 10.30.2008 9:21 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Nokterne
First of all, I probably should have said "reasoning" instead of "evidence." I stand by my statement though. I don't think that there is another issue in Halo that can even compare to the BR spread in terms of the amount of effort a community has put into getting it changed.

Secondly, I'd like to see the post where TehAttack stated that he "could not definitively prove that the BR needs to patched." Link please.


People campaign for things all the time to be changed in Halo. The BR spread is not the only thing that people have been or will ask for. Take Team Snipers for example. That has been talked about/asked for since the release of Halo 3. Same thing with Team Actionsack. The problem lies in the fact that people ask for things in the wrong way. Prime example: DanBauer. His name alone discredits anything that could possibly come out of his mouth. Now you might think that bridges on cognitive dissonance; but it's hard to take him seriously because of his long history. I mean, he was trashing Halo 3 before he had even played the game. That's always impressed me.

As for TehAttack, I could link you to a dozen or so things that he says that he cannot definitively prove that the BR needs patched/fixed. Now it's his opinion that it does and he offers evidence to support that opinion; regardless it is nigh impossible to definitely prove that it needs fixed. His opinion is that the range in which you can consistently get a 4sk is too short (aka the area in which you can absolutely mitigate bullet spread). However, as I explained to him that he consistently operates on the WCS aspect of bullet spread. To assume that the high end of the spread is prevalent or consistent is a faulty assumption. And that is also another thing we agreed on is that we simply do not have enough information to properly discern exactly how the gun operates at all times. We don't know what percentage the gun hits a lower spread or higher spread. We don't know how often the direction of deviation alters. For all we "know" about BR mechanics there is just as much we don't "know".

So you are arguing that getting screwed by the mechanic, as opposed to getting screwed by a mistake in tactics, is a good addition to Halo? Or are you saying that we should have to take getting screwed by the mechanic into account when we are approaching situations in the game?

I really don't like the sound of either.


Getting screwed by the mechanic is not a recent addition to Halo though. That's what people seem to fail to understand. The game from HCE to Halo 3 have had constant things that were "random" factors. Hell, the M6D had "random" factors yet that gun is supposedly the pinnacle of end-all be-alls. Even in Marathon there were "random" aspects that could very much lead to you getting screwed by the mechanics of the game. That's the way it is, has been, and probably forever will be. It's certainly NOT an addition, since it's been there from the very beginning of even this game series. The AR, M6D, Needler, Shotgun, etc (everything except rockets and sniper) had "random" mechanics that could lead to you getting screwed by them. So if you don't like the sound of it: quit Halo. And I am absolutely telling you to take into consideration game mechanics into how you make a decision. I mean you already do so when operating the AR or shotgun/mauler consistently in Halo 3. Why not for many other weapons. You have to mitigate bullet speed for the sniper (ie leading a shot) because of the mechanic in Halo 3. Not an exact comparison so here's a better one. Do you not attempt to get closer to people when using either the shotgun/mauler/AR to ensure that their respective bullet spreads are mitigated more? Absolutely. Or at least I hope you do. However, sometimes that isn't always an option so you operate the gun with the understanding that you're operating it out of a range in which it is 100% effective/reliable/opening yourself for getting screwed. Again, most of the people complaining about the BR's "randomness" have no problem with "randomness". They have a problem with how it effects their choice of weaponry. But at the same time they wouldn't support the reduction or removal of bullet spread from the AR or shotgun because those weapons would become too powerful and make them essentially easier to use in comparison to the BR. The distance in which the AR is still "red reticule" is quite large in H3 and if that weapon did not have bullet spread to limit it's effectiveness at range it would be insanely powerful. If you want to get a feel for it, play an AR-start game with 120% damage. The range on the shotgun is amazing as well. Which if I remember correctly is part of the reason why MLG removed both weapons from their gametypes because of their 110% modifier.


This actually made me laugh out loud. I wasn't directing people like you to "read a book," nor was I implying that you don't think. My comment was directed more at the vast amount of people posting poorly written spam. Have you read some of the posts in this thread? At least 80% are complete garbage. My post was caused by a momentary lapse in judgement, causing me to absurdly believe that I could actually convince some of them to do something more productive with their time then mindlessly posting the same useless drivel on this thread. I'm tired of kids telling me "It's Bungies game" or "the spread is realistic."

Yet your comment was no different than the ones you are complaining about. You added nothing to the conversation. You didn't add your opinion backed by reasoning. You didn't offer anything other than a slanderous one-liner about reading books. I agree on how there are quite a few posts in this thread that are nothing more than "fluff". On both sides of the issue. And sadly I have read all 90+ pages of this thread. I would have had to in order to produce the 7 or so pages of just my replies. My point was and still is that you didn't add anything to conversation except to complain about the people not adding to the conversation.

Also, telling me that I'm "disgracefully piggy-backing" really isn't going to help your cause. I'd cut back on the namecalling if you want to come off as mature. Throwing aggressive insults back and forth on an internet forum is hopelessly pointless. You took my comment way too personally.

Yes, and making blanket statements saying "there is sooo much evidence supporting [X]" without citing said evidence or even giving your opinion on it is pointless. You might find my comment about "disgracefully piggy-backing" as distasteful but that was exactly what you were doing. You didn't add to the conversation. You didn't add anything new. You didn't even offer your opinion on the matter. You offered your opinion on the opinions of other people. Essentially "piggy-backing" theirs all while complaining about the very action you were performing. That's why you caught my attention and that's why you got a response.

Know who didn't get a response? That kid talking about how he still thinks the M6D was balanced in HCE and how he assumed that Bungie didn't start you with weapons such as the plasma pistol on Prisoner. I'm sure he'd make the same mistake of saying something dumb about "Team Slayer Pro" without realizing that that gametype didn't exist in HCE.

That's always confounded me. The people who act like Bungie hasn't made their game in a fashion that is "noob-friendly". Even HCE was "noob friendly". Team Slayer in HCE didn't start you with the M6D (except on 3 maps, the large ones) and it had a built in mechanic that physically SCREWED you by making you slower and harder to strafe. Anyone who tries to argue that HCE was this uber-competitive game doesn't know their history. Or if they do, have a very distorted version of it.

~B.B.

  • 10.30.2008 9:50 AM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
People campaign for things all the time to be changed in Halo. The BR spread is not the only thing that people have been or will ask for. Take Team Snipers for example. That has been talked about/asked for since the release of Halo 3. Same thing with Team Actionsack. The problem lies in the fact that people ask for things in the wrong way. Prime example: DanBauer. His name alone discredits anything that could possibly come out of his mouth. Now you might think that bridges on cognitive dissonance; but it's hard to take him seriously because of his long history. I mean, he was trashing Halo 3 before he had even played the game. That's always impressed me.


Yes, people ask for things to be changed all the time in Halo. Its up to Bungie to use their discretion to determine those complaints that are legitimate and those that aren't. Unfortunately, Bungie is not infallible, and they, in my opinion, have a very poor grasp of real game balance. Its their choice what to change and what not to change. That doesn't mean that we can't continue to argue our case, especially when there is a very overwhelming amount of people who want the change.

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
As for TehAttack, I could link you to a dozen or so things that he says that he cannot definitively prove that the BR needs patched/fixed. Now it's his opinion that it does and he offers evidence to support that opinion; regardless it is nigh impossible to definitely prove that it needs fixed. His opinion is that the range in which you can consistently get a 4sk is too short (aka the area in which you can absolutely mitigate bullet spread). However, as I explained to him that he consistently operates on the WCS aspect of bullet spread. To assume that the high end of the spread is prevalent or consistent is a faulty assumption. And that is also another thing we agreed on is that we simply do not have enough information to properly discern exactly how the gun operates at all times. We don't know what percentage the gun hits a lower spread or higher spread. We don't know how often the direction of deviation alters. For all we "know" about BR mechanics there is just as much we don't "know".


You're right, there is no way to "prove" that the BR needs to be changed. It doesn't need to do anything. However, using extensive experience and analysis, many people, myself included, feel that the game would benefit greatly from a tweaked BR. Many people have tried the current BR and found it sorely lacking, now why can't we try a different version? You might find you actually like it better. We'll never know until we try it.

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Getting screwed by the mechanic is not a recent addition to Halo though. That's what people seem to fail to understand. The game from HCE to Halo 3 have had constant things that were "random" factors. Hell, the M6D had "random" factors yet that gun is supposedly the pinnacle of end-all be-alls. Even in Marathon there were "random" aspects that could very much lead to you getting screwed by the mechanics of the game. That's the way it is, has been, and probably forever will be. It's certainly NOT an addition, since it's been there from the very beginning of even this game series.


But not to the extent it currently is. The M6D was very controllable, predictable weapon, provided you had the skill to use it correctly. Sure, it was random to a very small degree, but not the degree that it harmed the gameplay and not to the degree that you could get screwed by it, like the Halo 3 BR. I don't care about Halo 2; that game was even worse than Halo 3 and I would prefer to simply ignore it.


Posted by: BerserkerBarage
The AR, M6D, Needler, Shotgun, etc (everything except rockets and sniper) had "random" mechanics that could lead to you getting screwed by them. So if you don't like the sound of it: quit Halo. And I am absolutely telling you to take into consideration game mechanics into how you make a decision.


We are taking game mechanics into consideration; it is apparent to me that you aren't. You cite examples of random weapons with apparently little regard with how they fit into the big picture. Extreme randomization makes sense in the context of some weapons and not in others. You're completely ignoring game mechanics if you apply a blanket assumption of "one weapon has random elements so all of them should."

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
I mean you already do so when operating the AR or shotgun/mauler consistently in Halo 3. Why not for many other weapons. You have to mitigate bullet speed for the sniper (ie leading a shot) because of the mechanic in Halo 3. Not an exact comparison so here's a better one. Do you not attempt to get closer to people when using either the shotgun/mauler/AR to ensure that their respective bullet spreads are mitigated more? Absolutely. Or at least I hope you do. However, sometimes that isn't always an option so you operate the gun with the understanding that you're operating it out of a range in which it is 100% effective/reliable/opening yourself for getting screwed.


Once again, you're completely ignoring the bigger picture. Yes, I use close range weapons at close range and don't expect them to work well outside that range. I also don't expect the BR to work outside of its incredibly limited range. I'm not confused as to why my BR isn't working at long range; I know why it isn't. We're arguing to have that changed. I have plenty of tweaks I would make to all the weapons if I had the choice, but the BR is currently the most glaring and game-breaking.

We don't have a problem with limiting weapons ranges, what we have a problem with is the complete lack of mid-range combat due to limiting practically every weapons range. There is an extreme focus on close-range spam in this game, and we simply want more ranges from which to engage.

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Again, most of the people complaining about the BR's "randomness" have no problem with "randomness". They have a problem with how it effects their choice of weaponry. But at the same time they wouldn't support the reduction or removal of bullet spread from the AR or shotgun because those weapons would become too powerful and make them essentially easier to use in comparison to the BR.


Yes, we have a problem with how it affects the BR, considering the BR is the only "mid"-range staple we have. Why does every weapon have to be a random, close-range bullet hose? Of course we don't have a problem with the AR's spread because we, unlike you, are taking the entire balance of the weapons and the game into consideration. You seem to think that if something is applicable to one weapon, its applicable to them all. Thats a very ignorant view.

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Know who didn't get a response? That kid talking about how he still thinks the M6D was balanced in HCE and how he assumed that Bungie didn't start you with weapons such as the plasma pistol on Prisoner. I'm sure he'd make the same mistake of saying something dumb about "Team Slayer Pro" without realizing that that gametype didn't exist in HCE.


The M6D was incredibly balanced in Halo CE. It ensured that, generally, the better player won, either by facilitating their smart tactics, shooting skill, or using positional advantage. This may not fit your idea of balance, where the outcome is determined by what weapons each player has rather than each players ability, but it was a much more fair and engaging balance.

Slayer Pro did exist in Halo CE. You started with AR primary, Pistol secondary.

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
That's always confounded me. The people who act like Bungie hasn't made their game in a fashion that is "noob-friendly". Even HCE was "noob friendly". Team Slayer in HCE didn't start you with the M6D (except on 3 maps, the large ones) and it had a built in mechanic that physically SCREWED you by making you slower and harder to strafe. Anyone who tries to argue that HCE was this uber-competitive game doesn't know their history. Or if they do, have a very distorted version of it.


Halo CE, on default slayer settings, was not very competitive. That was fine, however, because it provided players with the tools to create an incredibly balanced and competitive game. The most competitive game in console history, actually. Despite all of Halo 3's options and settings, we still can't create a game that comes even close to touching Halo CE's balance because we can't change the core gameplay elements.

  • 10.30.2008 10:28 AM PDT
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Posted by: sephy26946
Ignoring the monkey in the room: The Br is a power weapon. You shouldn't spawn with it, and there should be 2 or 3 to a map, max.

It isn't a power weapon. I don't know where people are getting that idea from. It's ridiculous spawning with an Assault Rifle, particularly in competitive play or on large maps.

  • 10.30.2008 1:03 PM PDT

Posted by: Lambdadelta
Posted by: harlowOO197
*starts hacking with machete*

good luck hitting me im behind 7 proxies.


☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭

Posted by: TheBigShow
Posted by: Omega Mrk XII
People are mad because you have to good to use it, I still need to get more BR kills at the beginning I only used the AR because I used to be really horrible at Halo 3 and now I'm just trying to work off that slack.


No, the problem is that you DON'T have to be good to reap the full benefits of the BR. There's no reward for the skilled and no punishement for being unskilled. It creates a game where there is little true balance and one that gets boring earlier in its lifespan.
Very true. I'm very bad at the game but I still get tons of my kills with the BR, making my K/D positive.

  • 10.30.2008 1:06 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: TheBigShow
Yes, people ask for things to be changed all the time in Halo. Its up to Bungie to use their discretion to determine those complaints that are legitimate and those that aren't. Unfortunately, Bungie is not infallible, and they, in my opinion, have a very poor grasp of real game balance. Its their choice what to change and what not to change. That doesn't mean that we can't continue to argue our case, especially when there is a very overwhelming amount of people who want the change.


It's certainly not overwhelming. That's the worst case of hyperbole I've seen recently. I almost stopped reading your post because of that crap and wasn't even going to respond but I figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt. The vast majority of people are either apathetic about BR spread or don't want it changed. Not to make an argument to the majority here but you can see that by looking at this thread. Sure, it's filled with "fluff" but most people have said that they currently do not see a problem with the BR or how it operates or that they absolutely do not want it changed.

Regardless, even if you had a legitimate complaint about an issue Bungie doesn't have to respond to it. Even if the H3 BR was so-called broken they don't have to fix it. They designed it to work in a certain fashion and so far it is. Whether or not you agree with that game decision is your own personal opinion. So regardless of whether or not your argument is legitimate it ultimately comes down to their decision. Which is quite obviously what it is. And what it has been for the past 7 years.


You're right, there is no way to "prove" that the BR needs to be changed. It doesn't need to do anything. However, using extensive experience and analysis, many people, myself included, feel that the game would benefit greatly from a tweaked BR. Many people have tried the current BR and found it sorely lacking, now why can't we try a different version? You might find you actually like it better. We'll never know until we try it.


And I've clearly shown why making any change to the Battle Rifle's mechanics can drastically alter the game and effectively destroy weapon's balance. Prime example? 1.1 patch for Halo 2. The game played almost 100% different when you compare the game pre and post patch. Many people have tried the current BR and either don't have a problem with it or don't want it changed. Why should we change it? Why invest the time and resources (especially when they have concretely said they wouldn't) to change something that has historically completely altered (for the worse) how the game is played? Many people, myself included, feel that a tweaked BR would greatly harm weapon balance just like it did in Halo 2. I can demonstrate how BR-starts alone can harm balance in Halo 3, let alone coupling that with improving the effectiveness of how it is currently. I don't have to try arsenic to know it's poisonous after I watch it kill something else.


But not to the extent it currently is. The M6D was very controllable, predictable weapon, provided you had the skill to use it correctly. Sure, it was random to a very small degree, but not the degree that it harmed the gameplay and not to the degree that you could get screwed by it, like the Halo 3 BR. I don't care about Halo 2; that game was even worse than Halo 3 and I would prefer to simply ignore it.


The M6D was often times predictable in a controlled environment such as LAN. Using the M6D over the internet via XBC showed how absolutely unpredictable a single-shot weapon could be when it has to deal with a ping of 100ms and up. Having to lead shots is fine when the game-state you're looking at is reflective of the actual game-state. When it's not; the mechanics of the M6D can screw you just as much as the H3 BR mechanics. Try leading shots against host on XBC on Sidewinder and see how uncontrollable that weapon's mechanics were when it came internet latency. Even a weapon that has a low variance can suffer just as much.


We are taking game mechanics into consideration; it is apparent to me that you aren't. You cite examples of random weapons with apparently little regard with how they fit into the big picture. Extreme randomization makes sense in the context of some weapons and not in others. You're completely ignoring game mechanics if you apply a blanket assumption of "one weapon has random elements so all of them should."


I'm not making that argument or else I'd be suggesting that the sniper rifle, rocket launcher, and spartan lazer should have random elements as well. You keep repeating this piss-poor example of a strawman argument and I sincerely hoped that you'd quit but you have not. The spread mechanic is the same principle for the AR as it is the BR. At a certain range the spread is easily mitigated. Past that the spread becomes increasingly more of a factor. You say that the spread mechanic makes sense for some weapons but not all. I agree. The spread mechanic makes sense for the BR as well as the AR/shotgun/mauler/plasma rifle/M6G/etc. However, I do not believe on a weapon that is increasingly rare while having other factors which controls it should necessitate a "random" mechanic (ie the sniper, splazer, rockets). Whether or not you feel it does comes down to personal preference and trying to argue that is rather pointless and rather tiresome.


Once again, you're completely ignoring the bigger picture. Yes, I use close range weapons at close range and don't expect them to work well outside that range. I also don't expect the BR to work outside of its incredibly limited range. I'm not confused as to why my BR isn't working at long range; I know why it isn't. We're arguing to have that changed. I have plenty of tweaks I would make to all the weapons if I had the choice, but the BR is currently the most glaring and game-breaking.

We don't have a problem with limiting weapons ranges, what we have a problem with is the complete lack of mid-range combat due to limiting practically every weapons range. There is an extreme focus on close-range spam in this game, and we simply want more ranges from which to engage.


There isn't a complete lack of mid-ranged combat. Your hyperbole is starting to get unbearable. You have a problem with mid-range combat that doesn't provide 100% effective results when you knowingly use a weapon outside the range in which that is guaranteed. And since "mid-range" is a relative subjective term it's rather hard to make any intelligent argument here. Something that TehAttack and I said about 40 pages ago. What you consider mid-range will probably deviate from what I consider mid-range.

You have all ranges in which to engage in Halo 3. You just can't do so without encountering bullet spread more often than not.


Yes, we have a problem with how it affects the BR, considering the BR is the only "mid"-range staple we have. Why does every weapon have to be a random, close-range bullet hose? Of course we don't have a problem with the AR's spread because we, unlike you, are taking the entire balance of the weapons and the game into consideration. You seem to think that if something is applicable to one weapon, its applicable to them all. Thats a very ignorant view.


Oh goodie, more hyperbole and fallacies. How fun. Not every weapon is a random, close-range bullet hose. Making such grandiose statements is so laughable and pathetic. More pathetic than anything else. You don't have a problem with the AR's spread because you think that the limitation put on the weapon by that spread is good. I think that the limitation put on the BR by that spread is good. And here we are again at an impasse.

Again, I'm obviously not making the argument that if something is applicable to one weapon it is applicable to all of them. Please cease this sad, misguided, viewpoint. Oh, and I woudn't comment on ignorant views when you're the one projecting them.


The M6D was incredibly balanced in Halo CE. It ensured that, generally, the better player won, either by facilitating their smart tactics, shooting skill, or using positional advantage. This may not fit your idea of balance, where the outcome is determined by what weapons each player has rather than each players ability, but it was a much more fair and engaging balance.


Were the other weapons in HCE like this? No? Than the M6D is not a balanced weapon in regards to HCE. A balanced weapon has pros and cons. The M6D had all the pros and almost no cons. Especially when compared to the other weapons in the game. It was unbalanced.

Slayer Pro did exist in Halo CE. You started with AR primary, Pistol secondary.

I'm quite aware that FFA Slayer Pro shipped with HCE. Way to attempt to side-step the point. The point was that Halo HAS NEVER been set up in a "competitive" fashion by default. Something that people seem to either forget or chose to ignore.

Halo CE, on default slayer settings, was not very competitive. That was fine, however, because it provided players with the tools to create an incredibly balanced and competitive game. The most competitive game in console history, actually. Despite all of Halo 3's options and settings, we still can't create a game that comes even close to touching Halo CE's balance because we can't change the core gameplay elements.


YES! Finally. Someone has admitted the truth all along. Halo with default settings has NEVER been very competitive. So stop trying to change the game to that way. Whether or not you think H3 comes close in options to HCE is on you. I think the options for weapon placement and map layout is a big improvement over HCE.

I'm out of characters...and patience

~B.B.

  • 10.30.2008 1:37 PM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
A bunch of arguments going around in circles and unwarranted exasperation attempting to display the posters mock-frustration with my puerile arguments.


I’m not going to discuss the majority of your post because it’s simply arguing in circles. You like the game in its dumbed down state, I don’t. You don’t want combat to be effective over 20 feet, I do. Fine, whatever, lets move along.

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
YES! Finally. Someone has admitted the truth all along. Halo with default settings has NEVER been very competitive. So stop trying to change the game to that way. Whether or not you think H3 comes close in options to HCE is on you. I think the options for weapon placement and map layout is a big improvement over HCE.
~B.B.


Well, considering Slayer Pro WAS A DEFAULT SETTING, I’m going to disagree with you. Halo CE shipped with several “default setting” gametypes. You weren’t forced to play one over the other, you could choose; they were all “default”, Slayer Pro included.

Talk about hyperbole (apparently your favorite word): “Halo with default settings has NEVER been very competitive. So stop trying to change the game to that way.”

I’m not asking for default settings Halo to be changed. You can still charge each other on Sandtrap spraying your AR at each other. I’m not asking Bungie to ruin your fun. I’m asking for them to give us the ability to make the game enjoyable for the competitive community. There are a million options for the casual player and about 5 for the competitive, none of which give us the control necessary to fix the major problems.

I agree, the options for weapon placement and map layout is a huge improvement over HCE, but it doesn’t address the root of the issue. Weapon balance and core gameplay is still out of our control, and until it is or until Bungie changes it, Halo CE will always be a more fun, more fair, more competitive game.

  • 10.30.2008 2:23 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Hyperbole is just a nice way to say that you're completely full of -blam!-. Which you are. On several occasions during that post. I'm hoping that you were just doing it knowingly (hence hyperbole) and that you're not actually that stupid.

**And (FFA) Slayer Pro is considered a "custom game variant" while (FFA) Slayer is the "default". Just like there was no "Team Slayer Pro" but even if there was it would have been the "custom game variant" of Team Slayer. If HCE would have been on XBL the "default" version of either (FFA) Slayer or Team Slayer wouldn't have started you with the M6D (sans 3 maps) or would have been considered "competitive".**

In HCE the default start was various weapons but not the M6D except on 3 maps. In Halo 2 the default start was various dual weapons but not the BR. In Halo 3, the default start is the AR not the BR.

If you are trying to say that HCE was competitive because the "default" includes the "custom variants" then I guess Team Rockets is considered competitive now.

Oh, and I must have missed where you said that you only want BR changes in Forge/Customs. Because to me it seemed you were arguing for the change to the BR for the entire game. Maybe I am mistaken.

~B.B.

**If you really think I'm just pulling this out of my ass, it's on the podcasts.

[Edited on 10.30.2008 3:04 PM PDT]

  • 10.30.2008 3:02 PM PDT
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If you ask me i love the br in halo 3 way better cause yes it takes skill and i still use it at all ranges because i learned where to lead and how to shoot it

  • 10.30.2008 3:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: TheBigShow
I’m not asking for default settings Halo to be changed.

Umm... Aren't you? Aren't you basically asking for the Battle Rifle to become more consistent, more of a utility weapon like the M6D?

I'm not saying I disagree, though. I think Halo 3 would benefit from this.

I’m asking for them to give us the ability to make the game enjoyable for the competitive community
What about the regular community? I'm pretty sure just about everyone values consistency.

Halo CE will always be a more fun, more fair, more competitive game.
Wiser words were never spoken.

  • 10.30.2008 3:59 PM PDT