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This topic has moved here: Subject: The Only BR Thread
  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
Subject: The Only BR Thread

Beserker, when you read somebody's post, do you actually try to understand their argument? Or do you just take little bits of information at a time that you think you can twist and argue against them independently?

  • 10.30.2008 4:04 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: simsinfinity
Be[r]serker, when you read somebody's post, do you actually try to understand their argument? Or do you just take little bits of information at a time that you think you can twist and argue against them independently?


I could dismantle his argument independently or as a whole. It's easier for simple-minded folk if I break it up into stanzas though.

I understand his opinions just fine. They just aren't compelling or anything other than just opinions.

~B.B.

[Edited on 10.30.2008 7:27 PM PDT]

  • 10.30.2008 4:43 PM PDT
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Archronos,I think it's time you made a "The only AR thread."

  • 10.30.2008 4:52 PM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Prime example: DanBauer. His name alone discredits anything that could possibly come out of his mouth. Now you might think that bridges on cognitive dissonance; but it's hard to take him seriously because of his long history. I mean, he was trashing Halo 3 before he had even played the game. That's always impressed me.
You talk as if there is a major difference between the way DanBauer presents his arguments, and how you present yours. Both of you use a disproportionate amount of aggression to the topic you are discussing. It's rude, and believe it or not, people don't take you seriously because of it.

You also seem to think its abnormal for people to comment on a games flaws before its released. The problem with this is that we have to rely on patching, and based on Bungies last two title updates, I'm not very optimistic as to their ability to fix and improve aspects of their game post release.

Getting screwed by the mechanic is not a recent addition to Halo though.
Please stop arguing that the game randomly screwing you over is a fun or necessary addition to the game. Try inserting this reasoning into a fighting game. Would people enjoy the game if the button combos they had spent hours practising occasionally didn't work for no controllable reason?

The equivalent to that in Halo is those occasional bullets missing for no reason. You can't blame everything on a players distance from his opponent. Sometimes, it IS the BR spread.

Yes, and making blanket statements saying "there is sooo much evidence supporting [X]" without citing said evidence or even giving your opinion on it is pointless. You might find my comment about "disgracefully piggy-backing" as distasteful but that was exactly what you were doing. You didn't add to the conversation. You didn't add anything new. You didn't even offer your opinion on the matter. You offered your opinion on the opinions of other people. Essentially "piggy-backing" theirs all while complaining about the very action you were performing. That's why you caught my attention and that's why you got a response. Come on. I'm not allowed to mention that a position has already been argued thoroughly unless I quote a giant list of evidence? And at any rate, I'm sure you've now been able to grasp my opinion from my recent posts.

  • 10.30.2008 8:18 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Nokterne
You talk as if there is a major difference between the way DanBauer presents his arguments, and how you present yours. Both of you use a disproportionate amount of aggression to the topic you are discussing. It's rude, and believe it or not, people don't take you seriously because of it.


There is a difference: I'm not an idiot. I also don't make things up and then blame them on the developer. I also don't make whiny, ass-hurt, comments on a forum when something doesn't go my way in a video game. I don't complain about netcode when I don't know anything about it and even after you've been proven wrong by countless people (some of which agreed with you outside of that issue) disappear until you find another way to make yourself look stupid.

The only thing that DanBauer and I share is that we are opinionated.

You also seem to think its abnormal for people to comment on a games flaws before its released. The problem with this is that we have to rely on patching, and based on Bungies last two title updates, I'm not very optimistic as to their ability to fix and improve aspects of their game post release.

I think it's abnormal to comment on something that you don't have first-hand knowledge about. I think it's abnormal when people offer opinions on games they haven't played. DanBauer was talking about Halo 3's gameplay before he had even experienced the gameplay. Or even seen someone play the game. That's like me giving my opinion on what it's like to be Australian because I've seen Australian people. That in my opinion is abnormal.


Please stop arguing that the game randomly screwing you over is a fun or necessary addition to the game. Try inserting this reasoning into a fighting game. Would people enjoy the game if the button combos they had spent hours practising occasionally didn't work for no controllable reason?


That's really a piss poor comparison. If you didn't like random variables screwing you over why did you play Halo? Halo CE had them. Why have you continued to play Halo? All 3 Halo games are filled with random variables all just waiting to dick you over. All FPS from W3D to Halo 3 have had random variables that could negatively affect your outcome. I don't see why you seem to have a problem with them now. Any game with a "shotgun" typically has random variables. While missing or losing an encounter because of a "random" variable isn't fun (I doubt anyone would argue that) it is my opinion that it is necessary in order to limit the range of a weapon. If for some reason you still don't think it's necessary...FPS games are not for you since they all use it.

The equivalent to that in Halo is those occasional bullets missing for no reason. You can't blame everything on a players distance from his opponent. Sometimes, it IS the BR spread.

They don't miss for no reason. They miss for the reason you already know. You just happen not to like it.

Come on. I'm not allowed to mention that a position has already been argued thoroughly unless I quote a giant list of evidence? And at any rate, I'm sure you've now been able to grasp my opinion from my recent posts.

You can mention that a position has been argued but it serves no purpose. Just like the people you were criticizing. I do understand your position now. I just think it's wrong. I also think it's rather foolish to expect a game without random variables when you've always played a FPS with random variables. Where were the complaints before? Why weren't you on B.net harping about how Halo CE is borked because the shotgun has random bullet spread? Or the AR? Or the dozens of other weapons that Bungie has put "random" variables on?

You don't have a problem with random variables. You have a problem with them adding random variables to a weapon you like. Unless you want to go on record now that you think that the AR and shotgun shouldn't have bullet spread and make it stronger than it is currently.

~B.B.

  • 10.30.2008 8:51 PM PDT

Halo: CE > > Halo 3 > Halo: Reach = Halo 2

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
The M6D was often times predictable in a controlled environment such as LAN. Using the M6D over the internet via XBC showed how absolutely unpredictable a single-shot weapon could be when it has to deal with a ping of 100ms and up. Having to lead shots is fine when the game-state you're looking at is reflective of the actual game-state. When it's not; the mechanics of the M6D can screw you just as much as the H3 BR mechanics. Try leading shots against host on XBC on Sidewinder and see how uncontrollable that weapon's mechanics were when it came internet latency. Even a weapon that has a low variance can suffer just as much.

~B.B.

I respectfully disagree with you on this point.

The nicest thing about H1 on xbc was how predictable it was. H3 online is just the opposite. Regardless of ping the M6D was predictable. The higher the ping (within reason; pings of over 200 on xbc made H1 unplayable, for obvious reasons), the more one had to lead their shot. That amount need to lead ones shot was consistent throughout the game. It did not very per game. It was predictable and could be counted on. And in H1 xbc, every shot you see hit on your screen counted. There was none of this abundant bullets not registering, as there is in H3. H3 online environment is the most unpredictable console FPS that i've played.

  • 10.30.2008 10:21 PM PDT

Berserker Barage

Your posts are truly amusing. I cannot understand why you waste so much time talking complete rubbish about a game that you hardly even play much. In the last two months your game history doesn't even cover one page.

It seems to me that you argue purely for the sake of arguing and pick on all sorts of irrelevant points. Your arguments are essentially pure nonsense dressed up with flashy vocabulary and sentence structure in an attempt to make them appear intelligent.

The fact that you spend so much time arguing on a gaming forum about the finer points of a game that you only play casually leads me to conclude that you have some issues.

I would really appreciate it if you would stop wasting space in this thread and drawing attention away from excellent posts by Big Show, Breezy and others.

Thank You.

  • 10.31.2008 5:15 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Prodigy117
Berserker Barage

Your posts are truly amusing. I cannot understand why you waste so much time talking complete rubbish about a game that you hardly even play much. In the last two months your game history doesn't even cover one page.


This isn't my only account. I have several at one time. Typically I range from 3 or 4 active at any time. I wouldn't have been able to play Halo 3 on this account recently anyways since my 360 RROD. What I find humorous is that you keep saying that my arguments are rubbish but you're not smart enough to combat them with anything other than ad hominems.

It seems to me that you argue purely for the sake of arguing and pick on all sorts of irrelevant points. Your arguments are essentially pure nonsense dressed up with flashy vocabulary and sentence structure in an attempt to make them appear intelligent.

You might see them as irrelevant but they are quite relevant none the less. What Bungie has done in Halo CE is still relevant to what they are doing today. Which is why I bring that up. People don't understand that HCE on it's prima facie nature was not this "uber-competitive" game that people try to make it out to be. It simply wasn't by design. It had the ability to be changed into that if that's how you want to play (just like Halo 2 and more so with Halo 3). When the more "competitive" aspects of the community look back on their time spent in HCE they are looking at playing the game off of the default settings. They probably played "Team Slayer Pro" and probably had AR/M6D starts on every map. That's all fine and good if that's how they wanted to play (I typically did because I played mainly CTF) but that doesn't change the fact that the default version of Team Slayer even in HCE didn't start you with a weapon capable of headshots (the M6D except on 3 maps) and had a mechanic that physically punished you for killing people on the other team in succession (kill penalty). The default version of HCE had built in mechanics in which most people would consider "newb-friendly".

So it really should come to no surprise to anyone that has followed the Halo game series that Bungie often places things in their mechanics that helps "level the playing field" for the experienced player compared to the "newb". Now that very much may be not how you played the majority of your time on HCE but it's how it is regardless.

So while The Big Show might enjoy saying that I prefer playing a "dumbed down" version of the game; I just have a far better understanding of history so to speak. I understand that Bungie has always made the game approachable for "average" players while experienced players will still be able to more than likely come out on top by default. Which is why he finally admitted that Halo (by default) has never been a very competitive game. Because it hasn't. So why are people still that much more surprised that Bungie would add a mechanic that they've used on dozens of other weapons to the weapon that dominates the most resulting in a "less competitive" game/play?

The fact that you spend so much time arguing on a gaming forum about the finer points of a game that you only play casually leads me to conclude that you have some issues.

I love comments like these. People criticizing others and saying they have issues for posting on a forum who are posting on a forum. Add in the fact that typically I post during my time at work when I'm in between doing projects and I'd imagine that I'm far more "productive" with my time here on B.net than you are. The reason why I post so much on this issue is because I know there are people who agree with me however they will not go on record as agreeing with me. Because doing so would only exacerbate the issue.

I would really appreciate it if you would stop wasting space in this thread and drawing attention away from excellent posts by Big Show, Breezy and others.

Thank You.


And I'd appreciate you not trying veiled attempts at flaming me when you have nothing to add to the conversation. You and Nokterne both have not added a single thing to this conversation that I can think of other than to try to "cheer on" those who you agree with. I'm sure Big Show and Breezy are big boys and don't need their junior-high cheerleaders in the background giving them support and "spirit fingers".

As for me wasting space, if that were really the issue it would be considered "spam" and you're more than welcome to attempt to get one of the moderators to ban me for it. I'll wait.

~B.B.

  • 10.31.2008 8:38 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: MadroKurgan
I respectfully disagree with you on this point.

The nicest thing about H1 on xbc was how predictable it was. H3 online is just the opposite. Regardless of ping the M6D was predictable. The higher the ping (within reason; pings of over 200 on xbc made H1 unplayable, for obvious reasons), the more one had to lead their shot. That amount need to lead ones shot was consistent throughout the game. It did not very per game. It was predictable and could be counted on. And in H1 xbc, every shot you see hit on your screen counted. There was none of this abundant bullets not registering, as there is in H3. H3 online environment is the most unpredictable console FPS that i've played.


Well for me during my time on XBC I typically averaged a ping from around 100ms to 200ms. Not terribly bad for a tunneling program being run through a router and a really long CAT-5 cable. However, the ping levels could very well make it easier or harder to use the M6D (especially at range where leading shots with it was far harder) especially from game to game. If you played against a host that you had a 50ms ping compared to a 250ms ping you had to compensate for it less (for the 50ms). It made games of CTF where most of the fighting happens at range because of the larger maps tolerable. However, there were often times where it seemed that I'd get screwed by the M6Ds bullet speed mechanic because I had to lead more than the host did.

I haven't had tremendous problems with Halo 3s netcode other than games where the in-game indicator shows 1 red bar for essentially everyone in the game. That (by my estimation) would be like a XBC HaloCE game with a 500ms+ ping rate. That's pretty bad. I'm sorry that it seems you have because it really seems like that is what your discontent for the game stems from. I can understand why you seem to like XBC better because you could essentially check your ping rate before joining a host's room. Or hell, you could just make it so you were host every game if there were enough people willing to join you.

~B.B.

  • 10.31.2008 8:52 AM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
What I find humorous is that you keep saying that my arguments are rubbish but you're not smart enough to combat them with anything other than ad hominems.


Your arrogance is embarrassing, especially considering how you’re actually not making good arguments, despite what you think. Look, I can’t change your opinion and I can’t make you gain a better understanding of game balance and I can’t force you to read our complaints with any sort of comprehension. You’re being an ignorant, puerile debater, so lets cut it with the arrogance crap, its making you look like a complete fool.

If you’re so intelligent then please, bathe us in your infinite wisdom and make an actual relevant argument other than “The AR and Shotgun have spread too! LOLOL.” Wow, what a revelation, next you’re going to be telling me more incredible surprises like XBC has lag, as if I’ve never played it before… oh wait, you already did that. Then you went on to display more ignorance by trying to tell people that the Halo CE pistol was uncontrollable and unpredictable. That’s not just a bad argument, that’s patently false.

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
You might see them as irrelevant but they are quite relevant none the less. What Bungie has done in Halo CE is still relevant to what they are doing today. Which is why I bring that up. People don't understand that HCE on it's prima facie nature was not this "uber-competitive" game that people try to make it out to be. It simply wasn't by design. It had the ability to be changed into that if that's how you want to play (just like Halo 2 and more so with Halo 3). When the more "competitive" aspects of the community look back on their time spent in HCE they are looking at playing the game off of the default settings. They probably played "Team Slayer Pro" and probably had AR/M6D starts on every map. That's all fine and good if that's how they wanted to play (I typically did because I played mainly CTF) but that doesn't change the fact that the default version of Team Slayer even in HCE didn't start you with a weapon capable of headshots (the M6D except on 3 maps) and had a mechanic that physically punished you for killing people on the other team in succession (kill penalty). The default version of HCE had built in mechanics in which most people would consider "newb-friendly"


HCE was an “uber-competitive” game with a few minor tweaks. Halo 3 is not, nor will it ever be unless we are given the options to change the core elements. You seem to think that, other than the weapons and the maps, Halo CE and Halo 3 are the same game. They aren’t. Just because Halo 3 has more customization options, Halo CE is still a much more competitive game. Just like I can’t force you to understand game balance, I can’t force you to have all the experience that might be necessary to realize that.

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
So it really should come to no surprise to anyone that has followed the Halo game series that Bungie often places things in their mechanics that helps "level the playing field" for the experienced player compared to the "newb". Now that very much may be not how you played the majority of your time on HCE but it's how it is regardless.

No, Bungie has placed mechanics in the game that make sense, like a shotgun with limited range, or an AR with spread, nothing like what we have in Halo 3. Good players are severely restricted by the weapons available to them; that was never the case in Halo CE, unless you chose to only have close range weapons.

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
So while The Big Show might enjoy saying that I prefer playing a "dumbed down" version of the game; I just have a far better understanding of history so to speak. I understand that Bungie has always made the game approachable for "average" players while experienced players will still be able to more than likely come out on top by default. Which is why he finally admitted that Halo (by default) has never been a very competitive game. Because it hasn't. So why are people still that much more surprised that Bungie would add a mechanic that they've used on dozens of other weapons to the weapon that dominates the most resulting in a "less competitive" game/play?


A far better understanding of history? Right, that’s a great assumption to make (considering I joined this site over a year before you did). Yes, the game has always been approachable for the “average” players, but it’s not because of good or bad game balance. All Halo games are approachable because of how good the controls are, how smooth the games feel, and how fun the games are to explore. A new player isn’t going to say, “ZOMG this BR has a range much too far, I’m not having any fun.” Their not going to notice any of that.

What was great about Halo CE was that if something happened, even a new player could point out what went wrong: my aim was off, I fell off the ledge, his grenade hit me. In Halo 3, not even experienced players can explain what happens sometimes; that’s bad.

“Which is why he finally admitted that Halo (by default) has never been a very competitive game.”

Oh yes, your masterful arguments and incredibly intelligent probing finally got me to see the error of my ways and admit that default Slayer on Halo CE wasn’t that competitive. That, or I’ve never stated otherwise and it wasn't a confession as much as it was a simple statement of fact. However, default slayer wasn’t unbalanced because of uncontrollable elements or core game mechanics, like Halo 3, it was simply unbalanced because of the starting weapon and a few easy-fix settings. I’ll take that over a game that doesn’t allow you to fix it at all.

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Well for me during my time on XBC I typically averaged a ping from around 100ms to 200ms. Not terribly bad for a tunneling program being run through a router and a really long CAT-5 cable. However, the ping levels could very well make it easier or harder to use the M6D (especially at range where leading shots with it was far harder) especially from game to game. If you played against a host that you had a 50ms ping compared to a 250ms ping you had to compensate for it less (for the 50ms). It made games of CTF where most of the fighting happens at range because of the larger maps tolerable. However, there were often times where it seemed that I'd get screwed by the M6Ds bullet speed mechanic because I had to lead more than the host did.


Yes, it was difficult to use the pistol off-host XBC; NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT. We had issue with your claim that the pistol was unpredictable and uncontrollable, which it most definitely wasn’t, 100ms or not. You didn’t get “screwed by the M6D’s bullet speed mechanic,” you simply missed your shot because you didn’t lead enough, which is something you can correct through practice and experience. Its irrelevant anyway, because Halo CE was never intended to be played over an internet connection. Its sad, however, that a game that wasn't even designed for it is more predictable and controllable in a terrible online enviroment than one that was designed for it.

You can’t correct a random bullet spread that only allows you to effectively shoot 20 feet (yes, that’s a hyperbole!, your favorite word! Feel free to continue to point out my use of exaggeration), no matter how much you practice or how good you are.



Posted by: Breezy131
Posted by: TheBigShow
I’m not asking for default settings Halo to be changed.

Umm... Aren't you? Aren't you basically asking for the Battle Rifle to become more consistent, more of a utility weapon like the M6D?

I'm not saying I disagree, though. I think Halo 3 would benefit from this.


Default settings on Halo 3 have you spawning with an AR. So changing the BR would have little effect. I realize that there are still BR's on the maps, but I want the BR's to be harder to use, but more rewarding to those who can use them extremely well.

[Edited on 10.31.2008 9:35 AM PDT]

  • 10.31.2008 9:22 AM PDT

Beserker Barage

You state that "HCE on it's prima facie nature was not this "uber-competitive" game". Well the only thing that really needed changing was to add the pistol as a secondary starting weapon. I believe there was a pre-programmed gametype called slayer pro that actually did this for you did it not. This was a default gametype just not THE default slayer gametype. This is just one of your silly arguments that is completely unnecessary. No doubt you will now proceed to quote and argue the dictionary definition of prima facie in a ridiculous attempt to validate this argument.

I'm not going to waste time on the rest because it is pointless counter-arguing pointless arguments.

As to my comment about issues it would be logical to assume such a thing based upon your linked account and it's activity as you would obviously be spending far more time arguing about the BR than actually playing halo. Obviously at a glance you can see that I play regularly so therefore it would be more normal for me to also post my opinions on the forum.

Would you be kind enough to list your gamertags to verfiy that you do play regularly?

Also if you do play this game a lot and as you are a 45 on your linked account you are clearly reasonably good at it, why do you argue for the abundance of unskilled weapons, a moderately skilled BR and it's severely limited range and random spread.

I have already posted numerous times in this thread with various ideas about how the BR should be, influenced by what is realistically achievable and what would in my eyes be ideal. I don't really feel the need to repeat this over and over however I will reply to some of the idiotic posts suggesting that the spread makes the BR more skilled and anyone who can't use it can't aim. These sort of posts are incredibly ignorant and annoying.

With regards to supporting Big Show I believe the post made by him a page or two back is the best post on this topic that I have seen and basically conveys all my thoughts on the subject. I think everyone pro current BR needs to read this. So yes I endorse his post. I have only made reference to one of his posts and to him once.

Could you please state why you don't want the BR to be changed and why you seemingly support the current dumbed down state of halo 3?

[Edited on 10.31.2008 10:19 AM PDT]

  • 10.31.2008 10:13 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: TheBigShow
Your arrogance is embarrassing, especially considering how you’re actually not making good arguments, despite what you think. Look, I can’t change your opinion and I can’t make you gain a better understanding of game balance and I can’t force you to read our complaints with any sort of comprehension. You’re being an ignorant, puerile debater, so lets cut it with the arrogance crap, its making you look like a complete fool.


We have differentiating views of what makes good game balance. That is plainly evident in the fact that you think somehow that the M6D is either balanced or good for the game. It's not. I've said it and explained why. Bungie has said it and explained why. And yet you and others still feel that in your opinion that it makes for better gameplay. That's fine. I can't change your opinion and obviously neither can Bungie. I have a fine understanding of game balance. Something that I've been explaining for 4 years now. Something that I've explained about why the M6D was unbalanced for over 4 years now. If you disagree with my viewpoint of balance, that's fine, but that doesn't change the fact that my viewpoint of balance is supported by others (since they agree with me) and it happens to be supported by the game developer itself.

If you’re so intelligent then please, bathe us in your infinite wisdom and make an actual relevant argument other than “The AR and Shotgun have spread too! LOLOL.” Wow, what a revelation, next you’re going to be telling me more incredible surprises like XBC has lag, as if I’ve never played it before… oh wait, you already did that. Then you went on to display more ignorance by trying to tell people that the Halo CE pistol was uncontrollable and unpredictable. That’s not just a bad argument, that’s patently false.

Again with the strawman fallacy. I thought I told you to quit that. I'm not saying that just because other weapons have bullet spread that any or all weapons should have that. Nice to see you attempted to correct yourself after making yourself look foolish by saying I'd make the argument for all weapons. You say that having certain weapons have range controlling effects (such as bullet spread) makes sense. I agree. I think that list of weapons it makes sense for also happens to include the BR. The reason why it makes sense is because it gives you the option to use a weapon at range where you can decide if expending more ammo is a fair trade off for relative safety. If you are fighting a person who has an AR and you have the BR, you can trade off getting a 5 shot for the ability to stay at a range in which the AR is relatively ineffective. However, if you'd rather save on ammo you'd have to be willing to place yourself in considerably more danger by moving closer to your target to give yourself the greater likelihood to achieve a 4sk. The range limiting effect of the current BR makes it harder for spawn killing to take place because at a larger distance it allows a player more time to make it to cover (since they are not getting 4sk). It makes it so the gameplay doesn't turn into Halo 2's where someone could just sit at a range in which the BR could still consistently 4sk in which no other weapon could touch it other than another BR or a sniper rifle. It created a rift in effectiveness by allowing a weapon to be 100% effective (which is easy to use and readily available) at larger ranges. It made the game solely dependent upon that weapon because no other weapon could compete with it. It broke gameplay.


HCE was an “uber-competitive” game with a few minor tweaks. Halo 3 is not, nor will it ever be unless we are given the options to change the core elements.


Play snipers with damage resistance. Requires 2 headshots or 3 body shots for a kill. It's rather "uber-competitive" IMO.

You seem to think that, other than the weapons and the maps, Halo CE and Halo 3 are the same game. They aren’t. Just because Halo 3 has more customization options, Halo CE is still a much more competitive game. Just like I can’t force you to understand game balance, I can’t force you to have all the experience that might be necessary to realize that.

I do? I don't think I remember ever saying that Halo CE and Halo 3 are the same game. I said that their default settings shared some things in common. I think that HCE is more of a competitive game than H3 is because of non-regenerating health. I just don't think people correctly understand that before you altered the gameplay/settings for HCE that it was set up originally in a very "newb-friendly" way. So I'd imagine that if HCE would have been released on XBL by Bungie that the default version of Team Slayer would have had non-M6D starts with a kill penalty on. The reason why I think that is because it's the default version of the gametype that they shipped the game with. Not the player-made Team Slayer Pro.


No, Bungie has placed mechanics in the game that make sense, like a shotgun with limited range, or an AR with spread, nothing like what we have in Halo 3. Good players are severely restricted by the weapons available to them; that was never the case in Halo CE, unless you chose to only have close range weapons.


And I think that range restriction on the BR makes sense. You don't. That's obvious and that's the main point of contention here. Sadly, neither of us can really argue this point with any real sway because it's only going to be from our opinions. I think that a BR with a spread makes sense for how the game is setup by default. It allows good players to still dominate with it while not making it as dominating as it was in H2.

And players were certainly restricted by the weapons available to them in HCE. How many M6D spawns were there on Prisoner? Chilly? Chiron? On a lot of maps you didn't chose to have only close range weapons; the game did by how many "mid-range" weapons were afforded to you.


A far better understanding of history? Right, that’s a great assumption to make (considering I joined this site over a year before you did). Yes, the game has always been approachable for the “average” players, but it’s not because of good or bad game balance. All Halo games are approachable because of how good the controls are, how smooth the games feel, and how fun the games are to explore. A new player isn’t going to say, “ZOMG this BR has a range much too far, I’m not having any fun.” Their not going to notice any of that.


I fail to see what B.net profile creation date has anything to do with my comment. But nice non sequitur. Halo has been approachable for "average" players for all of the things you listed but at the same time because it's default version of the game made it so the playing field was leveled for 'average players' versus 'experienced players'. Bungie has always from Marathon to Halo made it so that the base, default, version of their game had mechanics that made it for lack of a better term "newb-friendly". It wasn't until players started changing gameplay and options to it reached a point where it became a higher level of competition. Which is why I fail to see why anyone is surprised that Bungie in Halo 3 has by default made design decisions that help level the playing field? Because I understand (from history) that Bungie has been doing that from the very beginning.

What was great about Halo CE was that if something happened, even a new player could point out what went wrong: my aim was off, I fell off the ledge, his grenade hit me. In Halo 3, not even experienced players can explain what happens sometimes; that’s bad.

Most of the unexplainable is the result of internet latency. I have little doubt that if HCE was on XBL it would be the same way

Oh yes, your masterful arguments and incredibly intelligent probing finally got me to see the error of my ways and admit that default Slayer on Halo CE wasn’t that competitive. That, or I’ve never stated otherwise and it wasn't a confession as much as it was a simple statement of fact. However, default slayer wasn’t unbalanced because of uncontrollable elements or core game mechanics, like Halo 3, it was simply unbalanced because of the starting weapon and a few easy-fix settings. I’ll take that over a game that doesn’t allow you to fix it at all.

You see default Slayer in HCE as unbalanced. I don't. And I'm intrigued by how you don't think a "kill penalty" isn't a core game mechanic for that gametype. Unless you only consider core game mechanics as things such as if you didn't pulse the trigger for the M6D it gave you a random bullet spread. So again, Halo from the beginning to now has never been by default a competitive game. So it shouldn't be surprising for people that the default version of it that Bungie uses on XBL wouldn't be that competitive. The crux of your argument is that Bungie should allow you the option to change that in custom games (even though you've never made this argument directly). If that's the case, that certainly isn't what many of us are discussing.


You can’t correct a random bullet spread that only allows you to effectively shoot 20 feet (yes, that’s a hyperbole!, your favorite word! Feel free to continue to point out my use of exaggeration), no matter how much you practice or how good you are.


Again this just merely comes down to if you feel that range restriction should extend to the BR. You don't. I do.

~B.B.

*edit* I had some other stuff too but not enough characters

  • 10.31.2008 10:47 AM PDT
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I thing the AR is a little bit Owerpowred then Halo CE. But still the BR can beat almost every weapon.

  • 10.31.2008 11:20 AM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Again this just merely comes down to if you feel that range restriction should extend to the BR. You don't. I do.


I feel the BR should have some range restrictions, just not to the extremity we have now.

I want you to look at something for me. Lets take a look at weapon ranges and how many we have in each category. Note that these ranges are not exact and are meant to be representative rather than realistic. Effective range means the range where you can realistically expect to use the weapon to its full potential.

Weapon (effective range)
Melee (3 ft)
Sword (4 ft)
Gravity Hammer (4 ft)
Flame Thrower (5 ft)
Mauler (5 ft)
Shotgun (5 ft)
SMG (10 ft)
Spiker (10 ft)
Plasma Rifle (10 ft)
Sentinel Beam (15 ft)
Needler (15 ft)
Plasma Pistol (15ft)
AR (15 ft)
Brute Shot (20 ft)
Magnum (20 ft)
Carbine (30 ft)
Battle Rifle (30 ft)
Spartan Laser (>100 ft)
Sniper Rilfe (>100 ft)
Beam Rifle (>100 ft)



Now, I just want to ask you to do a simple exercise for me. I don't want you to make some long post about hyperboles or ad nauseum or any other uneccessary words you enjoy overusing. I simply want you to tell me what range has the most focus and what range seems to be lacking. It should be a sentence or two long post, nothing more. Let see if we can do this simple exercise.

  • 10.31.2008 11:49 AM PDT
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CLOSE RANGE!!!!!

I have no problem with having a weapon fill the gap between BR/Carbine and Snipers/Laser. However, to keep a spread on the BR and keep it as it's ease of use is unacceptable to me. If you keep spread but extend range and increase accuracy/decrease randomness, you've now got a weapon that is EXTREMELY simple to headshot with at any range, so a grenade or melee plus a shot is insta-death. It's the same with a pistol or carbine, but you can't depend on a burst and three headshot capable projectile from one shot to get an easy headshot. Other weapons actually make you work for it. If you extend the BR range, make it like the carbine. Don't keep it skilless like it is now.

I've said it before, but here is why the BR is "nooby," IMO.

BR vs. carbine

3 kill vs. 2 kill per clip
9 kills per weapon pickup vs. 6
4 separately aimed shots vs. 7-8 (I forget)
Fires 3 HS capable projectiles (only one needs to hit head) vs. 1
Higher chance to do some damage due to burst vs. hit or miss weapon
Don't have to aim for head (chest/neck/or head, and let burst carry) vs. aim for head
Trail not as visible vs. bright green trail that lights up your position
2.0 second cooldown time (reload) vs. 2.4 second
Crosshairs converge closer to the center making it visually easier to aim vs. not as easy

I know there are more, but I don't remember all my points. I know you can't spawn with carbines, but if you're going to make the BR better, at least make it difficult to get kills with. Make the skill required to use such a powerful weapon greater. As of now there is not enough cost and skill vs. benefit


[Edited on 10.31.2008 12:22 PM PDT]

  • 10.31.2008 12:14 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: TheBigShow

Plurium interrogationum

Was that short enough for you?

~B.B.

*edit* I have a meeting to go to and then the weekend. I'll pick this up again on Monday. Oh, and Prodigy, I listed some of my other Gamertags already in this thread when someone questioned me about how many BR kills I had. It's in here somewhere if you want to look. Or just PM some of the moderators, they should have most of them.

[Edited on 10.31.2008 12:23 PM PDT]

  • 10.31.2008 12:18 PM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Posted by: TheBigShow

Plurium interrogationum

Was that short enough for you?

~B.B.

*edit* I have a meeting to go to and then the weekend. I'll pick this up again on Monday. Oh, and Prodigy, I listed some of my other Gamertags already in this thread when someone questioned me about how many BR kills I had. It's in here somewhere if you want to look. Or just PM some of the moderators, they should have most of them.


How was that a loaded question? I simply asked for you to answer a simple question. There is no hidden trick behind the ranges of the weapons. I was asking you to perform a simple task. Apparently that was too difficult for you, so instead you wrote out a long explanation claiming you didn't have time, despite the fact that answering the question would have been quicker than writing the explanation.

[Edited on 10.31.2008 1:15 PM PDT]

  • 10.31.2008 1:14 PM PDT
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beserker give up YOU LOST

  • 10.31.2008 8:21 PM PDT

The M6D would be an overpowered weapon in the context of Halo 2 and Halo 3. What I don't get is why people think it was overpowered in the first game. It wasn't the best weapon at ANY RANGE! The shotgun / plasma rifle beat it close range - the rocket launcher beat it mid range, and the sniper (despite the opinion of people who clearly never played CE) beat it at long range. The reason why a three shot kill wasn't overpowered? Oh right - the game had a faster pace, which generally, for most people, makes the game more fun. How Bungie thought slowing down the Halo series to a tactical pace, whilst not allowing for insta-kill weapons, was beyond me. The game feels stale, boring and above all else - it's way too slow. The only reason why Halo 2 was faster than Halo 3 was because of artificial means, namely the intense amounts of autoaim / magnetism and glitches. It's very sad that Halo 2's competitive nature was founded on this principle.

Bungie actually can't fix Halo 3 at this point unless Microsoft somehow gets smart and allows for user-created content on the 360. But, since we know that's never going to happen - I guess we are stuck with a broken Halo game for the rest of eternity. The least Bungie could do for us is fix some of the inconsistencies of this game - so that at least if I'm not enjoying the game (I really only play it at this point to play with friends) then at least I'm able to not enjoy my time with the game consistently.

  • 10.31.2008 8:28 PM PDT

Just Chill, everything is going to be okay. Just don't rush.

I sort of understand what you're trying to say, but the only thing that could really 'speed up halo' is to have the player movement and weapon firing rates upped. I really think Bungie has done a good job with the trilogy and should keep up what they are doing. My only real complaint is the BR spread. They shouldn't make it like in Halo 2, but just a little more accurate, more of a cluster shot than a drag. This way the players would have to shoot carefully and not have the ability to drag-shot as much as a pure accuracy shot. No, by cluster I didn't mean a solid 3 shot round. Just a more closely followed burst, like 123 and not 1 2 3. It is just my opinion, but I think it would allow a certian more competitive aspect to the game. Sorry TheBIgShow, I didn't answer your question.

[Edited on 10.31.2008 8:42 PM PDT]

  • 10.31.2008 8:40 PM PDT

Multiplayer Gameplay
Halo:CE------------------Reach--------Halo2-----------------H alo3
Campaign Experience
Reach----Halo:CE-----------------ODST-----Halo2---------Halo3

Glad that Halo 3 garbage is dead, thanks to Reach.
Unfreakenbelievable!!

Posted by: fifthderelicte
BR vs. carbine

3 kill vs. 2 kill per clip
9 kills per weapon pickup vs. 6
4 separately aimed shots vs. 7-8 (I forget)
Fires 3 HS capable projectiles (only one needs to hit head) vs. 1
Higher chance to do some damage due to burst vs. hit or miss weapon
Don't have to aim for head (chest/neck/or head, and let burst carry) vs. aim for head
Trail not as visible vs. bright green trail that lights up your position
2.0 second cooldown time (reload) vs. 2.4 second
Crosshairs converge closer to the center making it visually easier to aim vs. not as easy

This is why they should eliminate the 3 bullet burst fire, and make the BR a single shot, or atleast eliminate the BR and increase the Magnum's range with an addition of a scope. One thing I hated about Halo 2 when it came out was the easy difficulty of getting BR headshots. Instead of fixing this, Bungie decided that in order to make the BR harder they had to make the spread wider where all the bullets must hit leading up to the headshot. No Bungie. Headshots are still too easy. Actually, now they are easier. You only made getting a 4 shot harder, or should I say more inconsistent and more frustrating. 4-shotting is not very common anyway. The most common use of the BR is stealing and finishing off kills with headshots, which at the moment and since Halo 2, is way too easy.

It may have been an accident that the M6D functioned as it did in Halo:CE, but it was no accident that the M6D functionality was left as it was. This is because it was extremely fun to use, which is a reason why many disagree about the random spread. Balanced or unbalanced, it didn't matter since in Pro settings everyone used the same weapon making it competitive and therefore more rewarding and fun to play. MLG tries to bring back this style, but the current burst-fire BR definitely doesn't help.

The way I see it, the M6D made Halo a good game. Without it, I have a hard time believing that the Halo Trilogy would be as popular as it is now.

I should also point out that both the Carbine and the Magnum can headshot without your reticule over the head. This is because they have a random element. I have many times betrayed my teammate or finished him off by aiming at the enemy but having a stray bullet hit my teammate. Now, this happens with practically all weapons, including the BR, Shotgun, AR, etc, but this can be frustrating since it gives the opponent an undeserved kill.

I probably should add that a random spread does not limit the range, but makes the range inconsistent. You can limit the range without making it shoot randomly. The problem is limiting range of single-shot weapons like the Carbine. It is understandable why they would randomize the bullets, but I disagree. I think the range should be limited simply by the speed of the bullets forcing the gamer to lead the target instead of guessing where to lead the target and hoping to get lucky like it is now.

What?! You disagree Berserker? Yeah, I already know that. I think I'll stay out of your current discussion.

  • 10.31.2008 8:52 PM PDT

Halo: CE > > Halo 3 > Halo: Reach = Halo 2

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Posted by: MadroKurgan
I respectfully disagree with you on this point.

The nicest thing about H1 on xbc was how predictable it was. H3 online is just the opposite. Regardless of ping the M6D was predictable. The higher the ping (within reason; pings of over 200 on xbc made H1 unplayable, for obvious reasons), the more one had to lead their shot. That amount need to lead ones shot was consistent throughout the game. It did not very per game. It was predictable and could be counted on. And in H1 xbc, every shot you see hit on your screen counted. There was none of this abundant bullets not registering, as there is in H3. H3 online environment is the most unpredictable console FPS that i've played.


Well for me during my time on XBC I typically averaged a ping from around 100ms to 200ms. Not terribly bad for a tunneling program being run through a router and a really long CAT-5 cable. However, the ping levels could very well make it easier or harder to use the M6D (especially at range where leading shots with it was far harder) especially from game to game. If you played against a host that you had a 50ms ping compared to a 250ms ping you had to compensate for it less (for the 50ms). It made games of CTF where most of the fighting happens at range because of the larger maps tolerable. However, there were often times where it seemed that I'd get screwed by the M6Ds bullet speed mechanic because I had to lead more than the host did.

I haven't had tremendous problems with Halo 3s netcode other than games where the in-game indicator shows 1 red bar for essentially everyone in the game. That (by my estimation) would be like a XBC HaloCE game with a 500ms+ ping rate. That's pretty bad. I'm sorry that it seems you have because it really seems like that is what your discontent for the game stems from. I can understand why you seem to like XBC better because you could essentially check your ping rate before joining a host's room. Or hell, you could just make it so you were host every game if there were enough people willing to join you.

~B.B.

I never played in games over 100 ping on xbc. All the games i played were between 30-75 ping. And while the host had a huge advantage - everything he did showed up instantaneously (jumping, grenades, no bullet lag (but still had to lead some with the pistol, due to the core game mech. of H1)), i could generally beat host, because everything that i had to compensate for was predictable. I knew exactly how much i needed to lead someone after the first shot, and how soon i needed to press the jump button before my character jumped.

This kind of calculated delay may turn off the casual gamer, but i'd rather have this then the unpredictability of H3 online. For people like myself, who need to know why they died, and be able to rely on their bullets counting when they hit someone, this is much less frustrating then the later.

  • 11.01.2008 2:12 AM PDT

Just Chill, everything is going to be okay. Just don't rush.

I understand what you mean man. The perfect example is Gears of War, where host stands dominant even without skill.

  • 11.01.2008 9:06 AM PDT
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Theres nothing wrong with it I love it to death, its probably the most convenient weapon in the game in my opinion

  • 11.01.2008 10:18 AM PDT
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Posted by: mitchthemonster
Theres nothing wrong with it I love it to death, its probably the most convenient weapon in the game in my opinion
well first off you shouldnt love pixels that much to its an overpowered noob rifle as it is now

  • 11.01.2008 1:43 PM PDT