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Subject: The Only BR Thread

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Posted by: Breezy131
Yep. The better player should always win, but now it's all pretty much about who shot first and who got luckier. That shouldn't be.
But, in any really good competittion, the better player doesn't always win. That's why you play the game!

Posted by: Old Papa Rich
The thing to remember is that all weapons have a spread. None of them hit exactly on the target every time.

The Laser, the Sniper Rifles...
Exceptions that prove the rule...

Life is full of random action. The game developers added a little to keep things interesting.
There's no way you can really think that.
Why not? It's true. Nothing random ever happens to you? Unexpexted things aren't interesting?
Just like in many aspects of your life, sometimes you can do everything right, and still fail.
Real life != Video games.
Is this really your response? Way to ignore the point.

It is just one more challenge of the competition.
No it's not. It's capping the player's individual skill and ensuring the better player doesn't always win - which is the whole point of competition.

How you handle adversity is just as important as your aim.
How are you going to handle something that's random? You can't fire the Battle Rifle in any way to mitigate the randomness. You're rolling dice every time you fire.
You are WAY over stating the situation. Clearly you can't handle this sort of adversity. You believe that just because you put the sight right on the person's head, the shot is going to land. Sometimes your weapon lets you down, especially if your out of range. Now what do you do? It's part of the game. The "skill level" is not capped. How does this random feature of the BR affect the better players more severely than the lesser skilled player? Sure, someone may get away from you because you missed your four-shot kill, but the lesser skilled player will need six, seven shots or more. This logic is flawed. Everyone is affected. The better players will deal with it better. And, the smart players will know when to switch weapons

  • 11.09.2008 6:52 AM PDT
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Posted by: Old Papa Rich
But, in any really good competittion, the better player doesn't always win. That's why you play the game!

But the better player should win. There are random variables you can't account for in real life, but that doesn't mean there should be unaccountable random variables in video games.

Exceptions that prove the rule..
Nope. Just exceptions to what you said. They don't prove anything except you wrong. You said every weapon has a spread. I provided counter examples.

Why not? It's true. Nothing random ever happens to you? Unexpexted things aren't interesting?
In real life unexpected things can be interesting. But in video games the other players should provide the unexpectedness. It certainly isn't interesting when my bullets through no fault of my own randomly twitch out of the path I aimed them.

Is this really your response? Way to ignore the point
Way to ignore my point. I'll reiterate, because you can't read between the lines, it seems:

Video games should not have random tendencies, or at least have ways to mitigate them.

You believe that just because you put the sight right on the person's head, the shot is going to land.
No I don't. I believe it should. Aim is a critical part of FPS'es.

Sometimes your weapon lets you down, especially if your out of range.
The Battle Rifle's range is incredibly short, then, because the max degree of error is .38 degrees, which means that bullets aimed at the center of someone's head can miss at a range of just about 22 meters. Aimed at the neck or chest, its about 44.

The "skill level" is not capped
Yes it is. Because you can only get so good with your aim before uncontrollable factors start to take effect.

How does this random feature of the BR affect the better players more severely than the lesser skilled player?
It affects them the same. I never said otherwise. These random tendencies mean that the worse player can have his bullets land, while the better player will not.

Sure, someone may get away from you because you missed your four-shot kill, but the lesser skilled player will need six, seven shots or more.
Based on what evidence? When using the Battle Rifle at range, no on will ever get a four shot kill. That six or seven shots is pretty average given that the spread and randomness affect players equally. If a player is really bad, then it will take them many more. When players of equal or about so skill fight, the determining factor will always be randomness or who shot first (assuming no outside intervention).

This logic is flawed.
Well, I'll agree with you there, you aren't making much sense.

Everyone is affected.
But not the same way. One person's bullets will deviate outwards while another's will deviate inwards.

I have a question for you: Why is consistency bad? Please explain, other than some bogus "it keeps things interesting" argument.

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Posted by: Old Papa Rich
The thing to remember is that all weapons have a spread. None of them hit exactly on the target every time. The BR just gets singled out because it is so heavily used and so much is expected of it. As for the argument about better players winning: they do, regularly. Life is full of random action. The game developers added a little to keep things interesting. It is no different than if they added a "weapon misfire" feature. Just like in many aspects of your life, sometimes you can do everything right, and still fail. It is just one more challenge of the competition. How you handle adversity is just as important as your aim.


1) As stated before, not all weapons have spread.
2) While the BR does have spread, it is supposed to be a precision weapon
3) The argument is not necessarily for no spread, but for a lack of random spread (which wouldn't be too much to ask for a precision weapon.
4) Even if the spread was taken out, do you realize that that would take much more skill? Headshots now are way too easy to obtain, and if there was no spread, it would actually make aiming harder. There would be no more partial hits, but hit or miss based solely on how good your aiming was. While this sounds like the H2 BR, the hitscan the way it is, and if Bungie incorporated a faster ROF, less damage, or any other set of factors to make it kill just as fast but take more skill, it would actually be much better for gameplay (IMO). Just look how much more skillful the carbine is (though it has random tendencies).
5) Only short range weapons are controlled by randomness, that I can think of. Precision weapons are controlled by the user's ability to aim. Let me reiterate, they are not asking for a H2 BR, but one that a skilled player can compensate for, and the hit or miss is dependent on their skill.

[Edited on 11.09.2008 7:58 AM PST]

  • 11.09.2008 7:56 AM PDT

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Posted by: Breezy131
But the better player should win. There are random variables you can't account for in real life, but that doesn't mean there should be unaccountable random variables in video games.
The better players do win. Look, this idea of incorporating unpredictability in a video game being bad is an oppinion. Clearly it is an opinion not shared by myself, or Bungie for that matter.

Exceptions that prove the rule..
Nope. Just exceptions to what you said. They don't prove anything except you wrong. You said every weapon has a spread. I provided counter examples.
Have you never heard this expression? It refers to the fact that nothing is absolute.

In real life unexpected things can be interesting. But in video games the other players should provide the unexpectedness. It certainly isn't interesting when my bullets through no fault of my own randomly twitch out of the path I aimed them.All competitions ahve random occurences other than the players themselves. Sporting events have referees. home crowds, weather, and many other things. Hell, real battles have countless things that affect the outcome besides the soldioers. I'll bet one of them is the reliability of the weapons. Again, this kind of unpredictability being good or bad is an opinion. We just disagree.

Video games should not have random tendencies, or at least have ways to mitigate them.Opinion.

No I don't. I believe it should. Aim is a critical part of FPS'es.But, the weapons aren't perfect. Again, this is my opinion, but I have no problem with things not working perfectly.

The Battle Rifle's range is incredibly short, then, because the max degree of error is .38 degrees, which means that bullets aimed at the center of someone's head can miss at a range of just about 22 meters. Aimed at the neck or chest, its about 44.Here's where the willing suspense of disbelief comes in. We are not dealing with real space. We have a finite amount of area to play in. Each weapon is designed to control a certain amount of space for the balance of the game. The spread of the BR aproximates the spread of a real automatic weapon, not duplicates it.

The "skill level" is not capped
Yes it is. Because you can only get so good with your aim before uncontrollable factors start to take effect.
But, then the lesser skilled player is capped even lower.

When players of equal or about so skill fight, the determining factor will always be randomness or who shot first (assuming no outside intervention).Here you are off base. The person shooting first is not a random effect.

Everyone is affected.
But not the same way. One person's bullets will deviate outwards while another's will deviate inwards.
I see what you are saying, but this is not practical. The wilder your aim is the worse your hit ratio will be. Sure, you might land a couple of stray bullets, but if your aim is bad, you will most assuredly lose the fight.

I have a question for you: Why is consistency bad? Please explain, other than some bogus "it keeps things interesting" argument.Consistency is a relative term. It is consistent, just not as accurate as you would like. Like I mentioned earlier, I find it much more believable to have weapons that do not function flawlessly. Life doesn't work that way. I realize you don't want any real life aproximations in your video games, but some of us do. Bungie clearly does.

  • 11.09.2008 10:06 AM PDT

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Posted by: fifthderelicte
1) As stated before, not all weapons have spread.
2) While the BR does have spread, it is supposed to be a precision weapon
3) The argument is not necessarily for no spread, but for a lack of random spread (which wouldn't be too much to ask for a precision weapon.
4) Even if the spread was taken out, do you realize that that would take much more skill? Headshots now are way too easy to obtain, and if there was no spread, it would actually make aiming harder. There would be no more partial hits, but hit or miss based solely on how good your aiming was. While this sounds like the H2 BR, the hitscan the way it is, and if Bungie incorporated a faster ROF, less damage, or any other set of factors to make it kill just as fast but take more skill, it would actually be much better for gameplay (IMO). Just look how much more skillful the carbine is (though it has random tendencies).
5) Only short range weapons are controlled by randomness, that I can think of. Precision weapons are controlled by the user's ability to aim. Let me reiterate, they are not asking for a H2 BR, but one that a skilled player can compensate for, and the hit or miss is dependent on their skill.

1. Of course you are right. I was thinking a bout the AR, Spiker, SMG, and those types.
2. It is a precision weapon compared to other weapons in the mix. Precision is a relative description.
3. How can the spread be anything other than random? A consistent spread would be just as odd as perfect accuracy every time.
4. I agree.
5. People are looking too far under the hood of the car. Evey weapon has a reliability of performance. It is up to the player to understand that performance and make weapon choices accordingly. All you can do is give yourself the best chance to win (or kill the opponant). What you can't do, is control everything.

[Edited on 11.09.2008 10:48 AM PST]

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Posted by: Old Papa Rich
The thing to remember is that all weapons have a spread. None of them hit exactly on the target every time. The BR just gets singled out because it is so heavily used and so much is expected of it. As for the argument about better players winning: they do, regularly. Life is full of random action. The game developers added a little to keep things interesting. It is no different than if they added a "weapon misfire" feature. Just like in many aspects of your life, sometimes you can do everything right, and still fail. It is just one more challenge of the competition. How you handle adversity is just as important as your aim.
Please listen to this guy.

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Posted by: Old Papa Rich
The better players do win. Look, this idea of incorporating unpredictability in a video game being bad is an oppinion. Clearly it is an opinion not shared by myself, or Bungie for that matter.

Well of course it's personal opinion. Actually, it's many people's opinions, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist. Although I could certainly argue why randomness and high spread is a bad thing.

Better players do not always win. That's the thing: The randomness ensures that in a straight up duel between one player and another, the result is a tossup unless the skill gap is huge.

Have you never heard this expression? It refers to the fact that nothing is absolute.
Nothing is absolute, kind of like how not all weapons have spread - a direct contradiction to what you said earlier. I don't know how to make it more clear to you other than explaining what these basic human ideas (contradiction, absolute, universal) mean.

Opinion.
Kind of like your opinion that randomness is a good thing... I mean can you seriously point out how consistency is a bad thing?

But, the weapons aren't perfect. Again, this is my opinion, but I have no problem with things not working perfectly.
Here we disagree. I value consistency and I guess you don't.

Here's where the willing suspense of disbelief comes in. We are not dealing with real space. We have a finite amount of area to play in.
We are dealing with real space even if it's in a virtual world. That is the actual distance at which you can rely upon the BR to not miss of its own accord. A Spartan is two meters tall if you need a comparison.

Each weapon is designed to control a certain amount of space for the balance of the game. The spread of the BR aproximates the spread of a real automatic weapon, not duplicates it.
The Battle Rifle, for one thing, is not an automatic weapon. For another thing, it's a horrible approximation of a real battle rifle. An M16 can accurately hit targets more than 400 meters away (thanks to TheBigShow for the lookup). 22 meters is a little more than a twentieth of that.

But, then the lesser skilled player is capped even lower.
I'm just going to drop this because you apparently have no idea what a "skill curve" is.

Here you are off base. The person shooting first is not a random effect.
Dear god, it's like talking with a child.

I see what you are saying, but this is not practical. The wilder your aim is the worse your hit ratio will be. Sure, you might land a couple of stray bullets, but if your aim is bad, you will most assuredly lose the fight.
Of course the wilder your aim is and so on. But if your aim is good (you've led properly and have the reticle centered by their head or neck) you can still miss completely because of the randomness and spread.

Consistency is a relative term. It is consistent, just not as accurate as you would like.
Actually it's neither. But you can sometimes get a four shot kill at an appreciable range, and sometimes you can't (assuming no player error). This has nothing to do with accuracy.

I find it much more believable to have weapons that do not function flawlessly. Life doesn't work that way
Where's that "willing suspense of disbelief" when you need it?

I realize you don't want any real life aproximations in your video games,
Obvious hyperbole.

[Edited on 11.09.2008 11:16 AM PST]

  • 11.09.2008 11:00 AM PDT

Posted by: BRFTW (aka) BR For The Win!
I'm am inviting all of the Bungie community to the new group BR For The Win! Whether you ar good with the BR or not, you can come and practice honing your skills with this amazing weapon.

A little bit about BRFTW:


We are BR For The Win, or BRFTW for short.

We stand for the BR and all of its prowess. We enjoy that the BR is one of
the most effective weapons on the game, and we love how accuracy
matched with skill (and a few well placed grenade every once and a
while) you can take your opponent down in a mere 4-5 headshots, as
opposed to the Assault Rifle.

We are here to show the players of Halo 3, that the BR is not OVERPOWERED or
OVERUSED, but it is one of the most innovative weapons in Halo 3. We do
not wish that all gametypes are BR start, but wish that more players in
the AR start games would switch it around a little and pick up other
weapons, one of which is the Battle Rifle.

We respect those that dislike the Battle Rifle, and we wish to help them get better using it. This way, they can become a more rounded player. The BR not only helps a player in ability to use another weapon with skill and accuracy, but it also helps the player with many other aspects of the game. Skill, just plain skill at the game and being able to be one step ahead of your enemy. Accuracy, with the BR you must aim more accurately to eliminate your opposition, this helps pull through to using many other weapons and accounting for bullet velocity for the weapons.

Please join, we are currently very new but with more members, the Battle Rifle can become one of the most enjoyed weapon in the Halo 3 Universe!


Lazy Link - BR FTW!

  • 11.09.2008 11:26 AM PDT

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Posted by: Breezy131
Well of course it's personal opinion. Actually, it's many people's opinions, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist. Although I could certainly argue why randomness and high spread is a bad thing.
I believe this is what we are doing. I don't really expect you to change your mind.

Better players do not always win. That's the thing: The randomness ensures that in a straight up duel between one player and another, the result is a tossup unless the skill gap is huge. The part I take exception to is always. No, the better player does not always win. This is true in almost every competition. But, the better player usually wins. In my Halo experience, it is a very high percentage. Now, if you are talking about individual encounters, the percentage will be much lower. Yes, good players get killed by lesser opponants. This is not a bad thing.

Nothing is absolute, kind of like how not all weapons have spread - a direct contradiction to what you said earlier. I don't know how to make it more clear to you other than explaining what these basic human ideas (contradiction, absolute, universal) mean.You are getting farthter and farther off the subject. In a more specific post, I mentioned that the AR, spiker, SMG, and similar weapons have a spread. No, not all of them, but many do.

Kind of like your opinion that randomness is a good thing... I mean can you seriously point out how that's a bad thing? My opinion is that some randomness is a good thing.

Here we disagree. I value consistency and I guess you don't.The BR is very consistent. It just isn't as accurate as you would like. The random spread is predictable and controlable by staying inside the range. Outside of the range, you have less control.

We are dealing with real space even if it's in a virtual world. That is the actual distance at which you can rely upon the BR to not miss of its own accord. A Spartan is two meters tall if you need a comparison.In the virtual world, distances are only measured by the rules of the game.

The Battle Rifle, for one thing, is not an automatic weapon. For another thing, it's a horrible approximation of a real battle rifle. An M16 can accurately hit targets more than 400 meters away (thanks to TheBigShow for the lookup). 22 meters is a little more than a twentieth of that.Now who is getting too deep into real life comparisons? If you like, I refer to it as a semi-automatic rifle. Again, the units of measure for distance are not a 1 to 1 ratio from the real world to our virtual playground.

I'm just going to drop this because you apparently have no idea what a "skill curve" is.Actaually, I'm begining to think that you don't understand the curve.

Here you are off base. The person shooting first is not a random effect.
Dear god, it's like talking with a child.
No, on this one I really don't get what you are saying. Earlier in the thread you refered to the randomness of the first person shooting. Actually if you got your way, the skill would be the only variable on who won a fire fight. The first person shooting is not a random occurrence.

Of course the wilder your aim is and so on. But if your aim is good (you've led properly and have the reticle centered by their head or neck) you can still miss completely because of the randomness and spread. Yes! We agree. What we don't agree on is whether or not that is OK. I believe it is.

Actually it's neither. But you can sometimes get a four shot kill at an appreciable range, and sometimes you can't (assuming no player error). This has nothing to do with accuracy.Whjat we are struggling to communicate about here is the word "consistency." Because you are outside the effective range of the weapon. I realize you want the effective range to be longer, but it isn't. It is consitent. At range A, you will get a direct hit a certain percentage of the time, at range B, the percentage goes down a number of points, at range C, and so on. I do not have any figures to fill in the blanks, but you get my point. What you want is 100% accuracy with only the player's aim as a variable. This is not the design, nor should it be, in my opinion.

Where's that "willing suspense of disbelief" when you need it?That is my point. Suspense of disbelief is up to the individual. A weapon that functions flawlessly is too much for me.

[Edited on 11.09.2008 11:39 AM PST]

  • 11.09.2008 11:38 AM PDT
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Posted by: Old Papa Rich
The part I take exception to is always. No, the better player does not always win. This is true in almost every competition. But, the better player usually wins. In my Halo experience, it is a very high percentage. Now, if you are talking about individual encounters, the percentage will be much lower. Yes, good players get killed by lesser opponants. This is not a bad thing.

But the worse player isn't winning because he out-thought or out shot his opponent, he's winning because of random tendencies. He isn't getting better, his opponent just got unlucky. This is a problem because it happens so much.

You are getting farthter and farther off the subject. In a more specific post, I mentioned that the AR, spiker, SMG, and similar weapons have a spread. No, not all of them, but many do.
Thereby contradicting what you said earlier. That's my exact point: not all weapons have spread. Why can you not just accept that you were wrong?

My opinion is that some randomness is a good thing.
Clarify why.

The BR is very consistent.
No, it most certainly is not. If a direct hit from a Rocket Launcher only killed you some of the time, and other times only took down your shields, you wouldn't say it was consistent, now would you? It's like that with the BR. Sometimes four shots centered on the head will kill someone, sometimes it won't. And those occasions where they don't are completely out of player control other than getting into close range (not the range the Battle Rifle is intended for).

The random spread is predictable and controlable by staying inside the range
Again, that range is very small.

In the virtual world, distances are only measured by the rules of the game.
Aiming for the head, you can only be sure that all your shots will hit at a distance of about 22 meters. That is about the distance of five squares on Foundry. How could that qualify as medium range? You can walk that distance in three seconds.

Now who is getting too deep into real life comparisons? If you like, I refer to it as a semi-automatic rifle. Again, the units of measure for distance are not a 1 to 1 ratio from the real world to our virtual playground.
I was trying to show just how awful an "approximation" to real life the Battle Rifle is.

And I have no idea what you're trying to say with "1 to 1" ratio and other crap.

No, on this one I really don't get what you are saying. Earlier in the thread you refered to the randomness of the first person shooting. Actually if you got your way, the skill would be the only variable on who won a fire fight. The first person shooting is not a random occurrence.
I'm aware that the first person shooting is not a random occurrence, I was pointing out the factors that determine BR duels. How was that not clear?

Whjat we are struggling to communicate about here is the word "consistency." Because you are outside the effective range of the weapon. I realize you want the effective range to be longer, but it isn't. It is consitent. At range A, you will get a direct hit a certain percentage of the time, at range B, the percentage goes down a number of points, at range C, and so on. I do not have any figures to fill in the blanks, but you get my point. What you want is 100% accuracy with only the player's aim as a variable. This is not the design, nor should it be, in my opinion.
The "percentage" is inconsistent, however. It varies. It's only consistent within a tiny range (again, 22 meters in no way constitutes medium range).

That is my point. Suspense of disbelief is up to the individual. A weapon that functions flawlessly is too much for me
Yet such a poor approximation of real life isn't?

  • 11.09.2008 12:02 PM PDT

why do you keep bringing up 22 meters? the br can easily be very accurate all the way accross Foundry... ie onlaught... so why sir are you saing that it is most effective and accurate at "22" meters?

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Posted by: Tha Tweaker
why do you keep bringing up 22 meters? the br can easily be very accurate all the way accross Foundry... ie onlaught... so why sir are you saing that it is most effective and accurate at "22" meters?

22 meters is the range at which, aiming dead center of the head, you are guaranteed not to miss. Of course this figure is probably somewhat conservative given that there's bullet magnetism. But there isn't much.

  • 11.09.2008 12:17 PM PDT

so your saying i cant lead my show and use my "shotleading" skill to help accomidate the fact that my bullets are never going to hit 50 meters away if im scoped in...?

  • 11.09.2008 12:30 PM PDT
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Spartan5326

The BR is always my main weapon then my sniper

  • 11.09.2008 12:32 PM PDT

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Posted by: Breezy131
But the worse player isn't winning because he out-thought or out shot his opponent, he's winning because of random tendencies. He isn't getting better, his opponent just got unlucky. This is a problem because it happens so much.
All of this is assumption. Certainly, some of the time luck plays a role. But, the better player gets some luck too. I believe you make your own luck. I do not believe this happens often. The better players win the most, have better kill/death ratios, and are higher ranks.

Thereby contradicting what you said earlier. That's my exact point: not all weapons have spread. Why can you not just accept that you were wrong?I was wrong in the fact that I exaggerated. Let it go, My point is still valid.

My opinion is that some randomness is a good thing.
Clarify why.
Isn't that what I'm doing? I like luck being a factor. I can handle getting killed or even losing to an inferior player.

The BR is very consistent.
No, it most certainly is not. If a direct hit from a Rocket Launcher only killed you some of the time, and other times only took down your shields, you wouldn't say it was consistent, now would you? It's like that with the BR. Sometimes four shots centered on the head will kill someone, sometimes it won't. And those occasions where they don't are completely out of player control other than getting into close range (not the range the Battle Rifle is intended for).
Sometimes it does not because the weapon's accuracy is not laser precise. The bullets have a slight spread. The closer you are, the less of an issue this is. But, no, sorry, you are not guarenteed a four-shot kill every time. The rifle just isn't that good.

Again, that range is very small.Maybe it is small if you are expecting absolute pricision. It may be small compared to what you want it to be, but relative to the other weapons you have to choose from, it is longer. Good players do kill people from across the map.

Aiming for the head, you can only be sure that all your shots will hit at a distance of about 22 meters. That is about the distance of five squares on Foundry. How could that qualify as medium range? You can walk that distance in three seconds.

I was trying to show just how awful an "approximation" to real life the Battle Rifle is.

And I have no idea what you're trying to say with "1 to 1" ratio and other crap.
I'm ttrying yto tell you that distances are relative. 22 meters in the game may be short when compared to real life, but it's a good distance in the game. The measure is in how the gameplay works. On this we obviously disagree. Plus, I think the 22 meters is a little short. You are talking about the range in which you are 100 % guarenteed a kill. What percentage would that guarentee be at 25 metters? At 30 meters? I don't believee the fall off to be that large.

I'm aware that the first person shooting is not a random occurrence, I was pointing out the factors that determine BR duels. How was that not clear?I thought you were saying that it was random. I'll drop it.

The "percentage" is inconsistent, however. It varies. It's only consistent within a tiny range (again, 22 meters in no way constitutes medium range).I can't let you assert this. The percentage can't be inconsistent. It is a measurement of all occurrences and it is what it is. We would have to do some testing and get a real number to go with the distances. Otherwise, we are just making assumptions. My observations lead me to believe that it is consistent.

Yet such a poor approximation of real life isn't? I don't see it as such.

  • 11.09.2008 2:48 PM PDT
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Posted by: Old Papa Rich
All of this is assumption. Certainly, some of the time luck plays a role. But, the better player gets some luck too. I believe you make your own luck. I do not believe this happens often. The better players win the most, have better kill/death ratios, and are higher ranks.

Well, the whole situation is hypothetical, although it's certainly possible and luck does play a large role in BR duels given the large and inconsistent spread - whether you want to believe it or not. Yes, better players are higher ranks, but that's because there are other skills than aiming the Battle Rifle.

I was wrong in the fact that I exaggerated. Let it go, My point is still valid.
What point? That the BR should have a random spread because some other weapons do?

Isn't that what I'm doing? I like luck being a factor. I can handle getting killed or even losing to an inferior player.
Fine.

Sometimes it does not because the weapon's accuracy is not laser precise. The bullets have a slight spread. The closer you are, the less of an issue this is. But, no, sorry, you are not guarenteed a four-shot kill every time. The rifle just isn't that good.
I know this. I want that changed.

Maybe it is small if you are expecting absolute pricision. It may be small compared to what you want it to be, but relative to the other weapons you have to choose from, it is longer. Good players do kill people from across the map.
But good players, who can consistently place the targeting reticle on their enemies' heads, should not have to fire it six or seven times. That's deliberately denying them a kill that their skill should have earned them.

I'm ttrying yto tell you that distances are relative. 22 meters in the game may be short when compared to real life, but it's a good distance in the game. The measure is in how the gameplay works. On this we obviously disagree. Plus, I think the 22 meters is a little short. You are talking about the range in which you are 100 % guarenteed a kill. What percentage would that guarentee be at 25 metters? At 30 meters? I don't believee the fall off to be that large.
22 meters is even shorter in the game because you can walk that distance in about three seconds.

However, 22 meters is the distance at which random tendencies and spread will have absolutely no effect - only your aim does. I have no idea what the percentages would be beyond that, because the spread is inconsistent and wide.

I can't let you assert this. The percentage can't be inconsistent. It is a measurement of all occurrences and it is what it is. We would have to do some testing and get a real number to go with the distances. Otherwise, we are just making assumptions. My observations lead me to believe that it is consistent.
Fine, the percentage isn't inconsistent. But depending on the percentage - let's say 75% at 50 meters - there's that much room for error; in our case there is a 25% chance that a couple of bullets from the burst will miss. And the percentage gets even larger at longer ranges.

I don't see it [the Battle Rifle] as such [a poor approximation of real life].
Now you're just lying. I've already shown that the Battle Rifle is one twentieth as accurate as its real world counterpart. That's all that matters when it comes to gameplay; the design and sound of the gun mean nothing.

  • 11.09.2008 3:31 PM PDT
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luck plays a large part in every game ever created even all the way down to chess and checkers

  • 11.09.2008 3:54 PM PDT

Old Papa Rich

I highly doubt that many halo 3 players actually like games to be influenced by randomness. I personally find losing encounters because of this extremely frustrating. I like to know that when I die its because the other player was more accurate than me or out-smarted me and not that he got lucky and I got unlucky.

As to good competitions being won by players that aren't the best those players generally win because they were the best on the day, or the best wasn't the best on the day. Nothing to do with random factors generally speaking and as far as I know random factors are avoided as much as possible in sport.

I would also like to say that the randomness of the spread affects encounters at all ranges. People are referring to perfect aim however if two players are equally inaccurate by a small margin then it is quite possible that one player will have a wider spread and therefore land the shot. I don't think anyone has viewed it from this perspective yet.

Removing the random aspect of the spread would in no way make the BR like the H2 BR. As the range increases the spread will widen to the point that it is wider than the body of a spartan, clearly it will not be possible to land all 3 bullets at this range. In addition to that it may not be possible to land a headshot with the 3rd bullet and land all 3 bullets at the same time (at or beyond certain ranges) depending on the pattern of the spread. The halo 3 BR is also harder to aim than the halo 2 BR and requires leading, stop scaremongering.

If the spread is consistent then a player with perfect aim can land as many shots as is possible at any range providing they have perfect aim, please note this does not mean a 4 shot kill every time because at and beyond a certain range it is simply impossible to land all 3 bullets (not a significant range either). This then results in the better player at the time winning, how you cannot see this to be preferential to randomness I really don't understand.

I supppose your ideal game would be one where all encounters are decided by a throw of the dice just to make it "interesting".

I would also like to mention that something really needs to be done about bullet registration with the BR and sniper, this is a huge problem and affects the game more than anything else, host against similarly skilled players is almost an auto-win.

Tha Tweaker don't worry what is being proposed will only make the BR more skillful so that leading correctly will always yield the same outcome not a random one.

[Edited on 11.09.2008 4:41 PM PST]

  • 11.09.2008 4:23 PM PDT

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Posted by: Breezy131
Well, the whole situation is hypothetical, although it's certainly possible and luck does play a large role in BR duels given the large and inconsistent spread - whether you want to believe it or not. Yes, better players are higher ranks, but that's because there are other skills than aiming the Battle Rifle.
Luck can help the lesser skilled player, but it is not the difference maker on any kind of regular basis. You shouldn't judge by every single encounter. Judge it from 10,000 ft and get the big picture. Better players win consistently.

What point? That the BR should have a random spread because some other weapons do?Yes. That would be consistent.

The rifle (BR) just isn't that good.
I know this. I want that changed.
I understand this very well. Otherwise, we wouldn't be discussing it.

But good players, who can consistently place the targeting reticle on their enemies' heads, should not have to fire it six or seven times. That's deliberately denying them a kill that their skill should have earned them.This is all about expectations. I'm not bothered by this. We will just have to disagree.

22 meters is even shorter in the game because you can walk that distance in about three seconds.

However, 22 meters is the distance at which random tendencies and spread will have absolutely no effect - only your aim does. I have no idea what the percentages would be beyond that, because the spread is inconsistent and wide.
All I can speak to is what I see myself. I've seen planty of battle rifle fire that can take you down from across the map. Sure, some rounds miss, but it still does the trick. So I think it is debateable how rapid the effectiveness drops off.

Fine, the percentage isn't inconsistent. But depending on the percentage - let's say 75% at 50 meters - there's that much room for error; in our case there is a 25% chance that a couple of bullets from the burst will miss. And the percentage gets even larger at longer ranges.I agree completely.

Now you're just lying. I've already shown that the Battle Rifle is one twentieth as accurate as its real world counterpart. That's all that matters when it comes to gameplay; the design and sound of the gun mean nothing.I am not lying. What matters in terms of gameplay is the the gameplay. The battle rifle performs as the most versatile weapon in the game. It is not all-powerful and certainly not perfect. But, it is versatile.

  • 11.09.2008 6:36 PM PDT

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Posted by: Prodigy117
Old Papa Rich

I highly doubt that many halo 3 players actually like games to be influenced by randomness. I personally find losing encounters because of this extremely frustrating. I like to know that when I die its because the other player was more accurate than me or out-smarted me and not that he got lucky and I got unlucky.

As to good competitions being won by players that aren't the best those players generally win because they were the best on the day, or the best wasn't the best on the day. Nothing to do with random factors generally speaking and as far as I know random factors are avoided as much as possible in sport.

I would also like to say that the randomness of the spread affects encounters at all ranges. People are referring to perfect aim however if two players are equally inaccurate by a small margin then it is quite possible that one player will have a wider spread and therefore land the shot. I don't think anyone has viewed it from this perspective yet.

Removing the random aspect of the spread would in no way make the BR like the H2 BR. As the range increases the spread will widen to the point that it is wider than the body of a spartan, clearly it will not be possible to land all 3 bullets at this range. In addition to that it may not be possible to land a headshot with the 3rd bullet and land all 3 bullets at the same time (at or beyond certain ranges) depending on the pattern of the spread. The halo 3 BR is also harder to aim than the halo 2 BR and requires leading, stop scaremongering.

If the spread is consistent then a player with perfect aim can land as many shots as is possible at any range providing they have perfect aim, please note this does not mean a 4 shot kill every time because at and beyond a certain range it is simply impossible to land all 3 bullets (not a significant range either). This then results in the better player at the time winning, how you cannot see this to be preferential to randomness I really don't understand.

I supppose your ideal game would be one where all encounters are decided by a throw of the dice just to make it "interesting".

I would also like to mention that something really needs to be done about bullet registration with the BR and sniper, this is a huge problem and affects the game more than anything else, host against similarly skilled players is almost an auto-win.

Tha Tweaker don't worry what is being proposed will only make the BR more skillful so that leading correctly will always yield the same outcome not a random one.
The spread has to be random to make any sense. If it was identical each time, wouldn't that be weird too? I mean if the rifle can fire the bullets to the same spot every time, then why wouldn't they be dead center? Like I said, it makes sense to me. I do not by any means think myself an expert. As for a "dice based" game with utter randomness, of course I wouldn't enjoy that. But, having a little unexpected adversity? That's fine by me.

[Edited on 11.09.2008 6:50 PM PST]

  • 11.09.2008 6:40 PM PDT
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Posted by: Old Papa Rich
Luck can help the lesser skilled player, but it is not the difference maker on any kind of regular basis. You shouldn't judge by every single encounter. Judge it from 10,000 ft and get the big picture. Better players win consistently.

Interesting choice of words. I take it to mean that you think consistency is a good thing.

Yes. That would be consistent.
Then you also agree that there should be ways to mitigate random tendencies. Because the AR, SMG, and Spiker all do. But the Battle Rifle doesn't.

I understand this very well. Otherwise, we wouldn't be discussing it.
Then why'd you say it?

All I can speak to is what I see myself. I've seen planty of battle rifle fire that can take you down from across the map. Sure, some rounds miss, but it still does the trick. So I think it is debateable how rapid the effectiveness drops off.
Yes it can take you down across a "the map", but how many shots it takes is variable regardless of user aim. In fact I think it should be able to take someone down across "the map" in only four shots assuming perfect aim, but whatever.

And the current Battle Rifle does not always "do the trick", since those extra shots are an extra second or two for the other, lesser skilled player to run away or snipe them.

I am not lying. What matters in terms of gameplay is the the gameplay. The battle rifle performs as the most versatile weapon in the game. It is not all-powerful and certainly not perfect. But, it is versatile.
You were lying. You said you viewed it as a good approximation of real life when it simply isn't. There is no room for argument here. The BR55 is nothing like your average battle rifle or M16.

And, how would removing random tendencies worsen gameplay? Oh, yeah. It wouldn't.

The spread has to be random to make any sense. If it was identical each time, wouldn't that be weird too? I mean if the rifle can fire the bullets to the same spot every time, then why wouldn't they be dead center?
Oh boy, the realism argument again, huh?


[Edited on 11.09.2008 7:05 PM PST]

  • 11.09.2008 7:03 PM PDT

Multiplayer Gameplay
Halo:CE------------------Reach--------Halo2-----------------H alo3
Campaign Experience
Reach----Halo:CE-----------------ODST-----Halo2---------Halo3

Glad that Halo 3 garbage is dead, thanks to Reach.
Unfreakenbelievable!!

Posted by: Shadow Wolf7347
luck plays a large part in every game ever created even all the way down to chess and checkers
???? Chess and Checkers???? Ummmmm...No, sir.

Those games have nothing that people can consider luck, unless you think the location of the pieces on the board is based on luck rather than the decissions of the players. So, you basically gave a counterexample within your false statement.

  • 11.09.2008 8:18 PM PDT

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Posted by: Breezy131
Interesting choice of words. I take it to mean that you think consistency is a good thing.
Sure it is. It's just I differentiate between consistency and absolute certainty.

Then you also agree that there should be ways to mitigate random tendencies. Because the AR, SMG, and Spiker all do. But the Battle Rifle doesn't.How so? I do not know, but I imagine the sread is calculated by the same type of formula for each weapon.

Yes it can take you down across a "the map", but how many shots it takes is variable regardless of user aim. In fact I think it should be able to take someone down across "the map" in only four shots assuming perfect aim, but whatever.

And the current Battle Rifle does not always "do the trick", since those extra shots are an extra second or two for the other, lesser skilled player to run away or snipe them.
This sounds like a discussion on the best strategy using the BR.

You were lying. You said you viewed it as a good approximation of real life when it simply isn't. There is no room for argument here. The BR55 is nothing like your average battle rifle or M16.

And, how would removing random tendencies worsen gameplay? Oh, yeah. It wouldn't.
This is not lying. You can argue that you believe I'm mistaken, but not lying. The BR is a semi-automatic rifle that fires three round bursts. It has a greater degree of accuracy than other automatic weapons. This sounds like a decent aproximation to me. And, the debate about random tendencies being good or bad is amatter of opinion, not fact.

Oh boy, the realism argument again, huh?
Sure, why not? You use it when it suits your purpose.

  • 11.10.2008 4:56 AM PDT

Multiplayer Gameplay
Halo:CE------------------Reach--------Halo2-----------------H alo3
Campaign Experience
Reach----Halo:CE-----------------ODST-----Halo2---------Halo3

Glad that Halo 3 garbage is dead, thanks to Reach.
Unfreakenbelievable!!

Posted by: Old Papa Rich
Then you also agree that there should be ways to mitigate random tendencies. Because the AR, SMG, and Spiker all do. But the Battle Rifle doesn't.How so? I do not know, but I imagine the sread is calculated by the same type of formula for each weapon.
When you pulse your trigger instead of holding it, the weapons will have a tighter spread. However, with the BR, you have to pulse it, so the random spread keeps the same randomness.

I'll assume you really didn't know this, and it makes me wonder why you are so concerned with debating about why the BR should keep its current randomness if you don't even know the properties of the weapons. All the way back to Halo:Combat Evolved the M6D, a.k.a the Pistol, had randomness when holding the trigger, however the experienced players could pulse the trigger and make it shoot more precise. I should also note that Halo:CE is still the best of the Halo Trilogy, but I suppose that may be an opinion.
(Sorry if I assumed wrong or misunderstood when you asked "How so?")

[Edited on 11.10.2008 5:37 AM PST]

  • 11.10.2008 5:29 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Wow, this thread has gone to crap while I was gone. Now we have people talking about M16's that obviously don't know the first thing about them. Whoever said that an M16 can place a 3-round burst consistently at 500 meters within a small range of variance I want to NEVER return to this thread. Your stupidity is far too overwhelming for me to even begin to deal with. I don't know who it was and I don't want to know. I just want that person to never return or at least stop talking about things that they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

Again, a consistent spread can still cost you an encounter just as much as a random spread can. And as I explained having a consistent (static) spread variant can produce just as many problems as you're complaining about.

As for a way to mitigate spread with the BR. There are weapons in which you can mitigate it in Halo 3 and there are those you can't. Do you really want to make the BR spread dependent upon whether or not you're moving or whether or not you're firing in succession? Because I can almost 100% guarantee you that if Bungie were to make the spread dependent on an independent variable they would make it one of those 2. Hell, they'd probably make it a combination of the two. Do you really want your BR spread dependent on the fact that you're either moving or firing it in succession? Do you realize how bad that would make it? Getting a 4sk would be almost impossible if they added the spread mechanic based upon ROF. Which is exactly what they have on the AR, SMG, PR, and Spiker. Do you really want that for the BR? Because that is what it sounds like many of you are suggesting. I serious began laughing hysterically when people wanted a way to mitigate spread on the current BR. You don't know how bad of Pandora's Box you're opening with that one.

Why are we still even discussing this? Halo by default has never been competitive. Stop trying to change it to that by default. HCE = not competitive. H2 = not competitive. H3 = not competitive. Why is this still shocking to some people?

~B.B.

  • 11.10.2008 7:47 AM PDT