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  • Subject: The Only BR Thread
Subject: The Only BR Thread

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Because Halo isn't NASCAR where I don't want to be making "LEFT TURNs" all day. Say you have two players, each firing weapons of static bullet spread. One player can strafe left to right and the other cannot (map variables or what have you). The player that can strafe from one direction to the other has an advantage over the person that cannot because he can strafe away from the spread while the other can't. Right now, the players have no idea how the bullet spread will go. They have to aim accordingly.

A static spread cannot be completely controlled by the player firing the weapon in the existence of a dynamic opponent.
Could you please stop with the 'strafing to counteract the static spread' argument? Compare the amount of time it takes for the 3 bullets to exit the barrel of the BR, to the amount of time it takes to change directions while strafing in Halo 3. If a static, cone-shaped spread consisting of 3 bullets was implemented, you would NEVER see players fall into the patterns you are describing.

  • 11.10.2008 11:58 AM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
If you want to try to say that Bungie should be giving you the options for this in custom games that's a different argument. The point is and forever will be that the Halo that is produced by default for wide-public consumption has NEVER and probably will NEVER be all that "skilled, competitive".
You know, if Bungie did that, it would be AWESOME. The option to turn off or modify to BR spread via a custom option has been suggested multiple times. Unfortunately, this hasn't happened, or even been acknowledged for some reason.

At least we got that new EXP system everyone wanted...

  • 11.10.2008 12:06 PM PDT

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Posted by: Nokterne
Could you please stop with the 'strafing to counteract the static spread' argument? Compare the amount of time it takes for the 3 bullets to exit the barrel of the BR, to the amount of time it takes to change directions while strafing in Halo 3. If a static, cone-shaped spread consisting of 3 bullets was implemented, you would NEVER see players fall into the patterns you are describing.


Except at ranges in which the BR's bullet speed plays a bigger part. Which isn't exactly that far if you've noticed. What I'm describing is a 'cone-shaped' spread, well as so far as you can with a 3-round burst. One bullet deviates at 0 degrees. One bullet deviates at 135 degrees. One bullet deviates at 225 degrees. Essentially one-third around a circle (360 degrees) for each bullet. I figured that was the most "fair" way to set it up.

And actually, if they were were to implement a system such as I described it very much could happen. You would essentially have to lead different amounts depending on whether or not your opponent was strafing one direction versus the other. Depending on the actual range of which you're fighting you very much could lose a battle because someone was strafing away from your shot.

Again, the difference between a static and limited-dynamic spread is moderate on a stationary target. The difference between the two on a moving target is slight.

~B.B.

  • 11.10.2008 12:07 PM PDT

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Posted by: Langley
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Posted by: Nokterne
Posted by: BerserkerBarage
If you want to try to say that Bungie should be giving you the options for this in custom games that's a different argument. The point is and forever will be that the Halo that is produced by default for wide-public consumption has NEVER and probably will NEVER be all that "skilled, competitive".
You know, if Bungie did that, it would be AWESOME. The option to turn off or modify to BR spread via a custom option has been suggested multiple times. Unfortunately, this hasn't happened, or even been acknowledged for some reason.

At least we got that new EXP system everyone wanted...


Want to know why? At least from my guess? It's because of people like you. And I'm not trying to be malicious with that. It's because if they gave you the option to make the BR into however you wanted in custom games it would only be creating more headaches down the road for them (them being Bungie). Because the vocal minority would be on the forums clamoring for how this "uber-BR" would make H3's balance sooo much better. Except it wouldn't.

Now, I'm all for giving people options. I wish you could spawn with the Carbine on every map. I've said that from the beginning. However, I also understand that giving people the option to change spread mechanics is like giving yourself more rope to hang yourself with. Now, if you could promise that if given the option to change spread mechanics in customs and no one would ever say bring it to MM, I'd agree whole-heartedly. (Essentially this is the same argument I said when people wanted the M6D in Customs). However, the instant someone tried to say that the "uber-BR" is the better way to play Halo then the deal is off. I just know that would never happen. So essentially it's a no-deal for me. That's just where I'm at on the issue although I might change my mind.

~B.B.

  • 11.10.2008 12:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: Old Papa Rich
Sure it is. It's just I differentiate between consistency and absolute certainty.

So, there would be nothing wrong with making the Battle Rifle consistent then.

How so? I do not know, but I imagine the sread is calculated by the same type of formula for each weapon.
Burst firing makes each one of those weapons much more accurate than holding down the trigger. But firing the Battle Rifle slower does nothing, and neither does anything else.

This sounds like a discussion on the best strategy using the BR.
It isn't a discussion it's fact. And I could argue that letting players just run away from a fight so easily is bad for gameplay. I'll follow up if you really want to know.

This is not lying. You can argue that you believe I'm mistaken, but not lying. The BR is a semi-automatic rifle that fires three round bursts. It has a greater degree of accuracy than other automatic weapons. This sounds like a decent aproximation to me. And, the debate about random tendencies being good or bad is amatter of opinion, not fact.
Actually it doesn't have a greater degree of accuracy. You can kill someone across Snowbound with 16/17 bullets from an Assault Rifle by single firing it. That is, or is close to, 100% efficiency. The Battle Rifle cannot operate with 100% efficiency at the range it was frickin' designed for.

And of course this debate is a matter of opinion! No frickin' joke!

Sure, why not? You use it when it suits your purpose.
Well it's highly contradictory that you would choose to argue that the Battle Rifle is realistic (when it isn't) and yet you find it makes no sense that three bullets would always go to the same place.

  • 11.10.2008 12:50 PM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Posted by: Nokterne
Posted by: BerserkerBarage
If you want to try to say that Bungie should be giving you the options for this in custom games that's a different argument. The point is and forever will be that the Halo that is produced by default for wide-public consumption has NEVER and probably will NEVER be all that "skilled, competitive".
You know, if Bungie did that, it would be AWESOME. The option to turn off or modify to BR spread via a custom option has been suggested multiple times. Unfortunately, this hasn't happened, or even been acknowledged for some reason.

At least we got that new EXP system everyone wanted...


Want to know why? At least from my guess? It's because of people like you. And I'm not trying to be malicious with that. It's because if they gave you the option to make the BR into however you wanted in custom games it would only be creating more headaches down the road for them (them being Bungie). Because the vocal minority would be on the forums clamoring for how this "uber-BR" would make H3's balance sooo much better. Except it wouldn't.

Now, I'm all for giving people options. I wish you could spawn with the Carbine on every map. I've said that from the beginning. However, I also understand that giving people the option to change spread mechanics is like giving yourself more rope to hang yourself with. Now, if you could promise that if given the option to change spread mechanics in customs and no one would ever say bring it to MM, I'd agree whole-heartedly. (Essentially this is the same argument I said when people wanted the M6D in Customs). However, the instant someone tried to say that the "uber-BR" is the better way to play Halo then the deal is off. I just know that would never happen. So essentially it's a no-deal for me. That's just where I'm at on the issue although I might change my mind.

~B.B.


Its not like people aren't already asking for this anyway. Bungie don't have to respond to it anyway they have already banned all BR threads barring this one so what difference would it make. All I would ask is that they provide a comprehensive list of options that includes spread and single shot function primarily and perhaps auto aim, magnetism etc. This would satisfy a lot of MLG types who shun MM anyway.

So you admit the effective range of an M16 is 200m, more than the BR then?

As to your previous statement about strafing to control the spread, this is skill is it not. In any event I don't think strafing is fast enough nor responsive enough in relation to the delay between bullets exiting the barrel for it to be that effective.

As to your point that the target strafing away from the shot may cause it to miss. Would this not happen with a random spread anyway. Still both players have the ability to change their direction of strafe as the opponent fires, so to me this seems fair.

  • 11.10.2008 1:02 PM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Ohhh, so now it's incorporating user error as part of the problem. Saying that when someone is actually controlling the weapon (sorta like Halo 3) that the effective range is less than half of what they've previously stated for the weapon. Hmmm, this sounds very familiar to something someone else was saying in this thread before...if only I could place where I remember hearing it from...


No, its not incorporating user error. We can't incorporate user error in the maximum effective range. The numbers you gave did, that’s why I explained why they couldn't be used. You said, look lololol 200 meters; I explained that the number most likely was based on user-error, which we can't take into consideration when discussing max effective range. This is basic reading comprehension here.

Yes, it is familiar; you said it before, and it was flawed then too.

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Actually, it's not exactly the same. See when I talk about firearms I actually have personal experience with dealing with them pretty much on a daily basis. I speak on most of them as having experienced fact. You and I talk about weapons balance out of our opinions. Neither one of us have made a game that requires weapons balance. So neither one of us have anything to relate to other than our own personal opinions. That's an awfully big difference BigShow and someone as supposedly intelligent as you are should know that.


Did you personally design and construct the firearms you dealt with? No. Did either of us personally design and construct Halo 3? No. Does that mean that, like you with firearms, we can't understand and comprehend the mechanics behind the game? Of course not. I can relate to games that work and games that don't, games that are balanced and those that aren't, games that reward player ability and those that don't. I'm willing to bet that my experience with game balance is more extensive than yours, just as you are willing to bet that your ballistics experience is greater than mine.


Posted by: BerserkerBarage
If you want to try to say that Bungie should be giving you the options for this in custom games that's a different argument. The point is and forever will be that the Halo that is produced by default for wide-public consumption has NEVER and probably will NEVER be all that "skilled, competitive".

~B.B.


I have suggested that Bungie give us another weapon via forge or some other method before. However, we don't even know if thats possible, and Bungie is hardly forthcoming on answering our questions. So we fall back on what has been the competitive standard for the series; the mid-range weapon. In this case, the BR.

Playing Bungie-preferred settings has never been 100% competitive, I'm not arguing that and I never have. We already went over this. However, in Halo CE, we were given a weapon and the options that could be used to craft a competitive game. In fact, it became the most competitive console game to date. Halo 2 was terrible, and I want Halo 3 to bring the series back to something more people can enjoy.

[Edited on 11.10.2008 1:05 PM PST]

  • 11.10.2008 1:03 PM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Posted by: Nokterne
Could you please stop with the 'strafing to counteract the static spread' argument? Compare the amount of time it takes for the 3 bullets to exit the barrel of the BR, to the amount of time it takes to change directions while strafing in Halo 3. If a static, cone-shaped spread consisting of 3 bullets was implemented, you would NEVER see players fall into the patterns you are describing.


Except at ranges in which the BR's bullet speed plays a bigger part. Which isn't exactly that far if you've noticed. What I'm describing is a 'cone-shaped' spread, well as so far as you can with a 3-round burst. One bullet deviates at 0 degrees. One bullet deviates at 135 degrees. One bullet deviates at 225 degrees. Essentially one-third around a circle (360 degrees) for each bullet. I figured that was the most "fair" way to set it up.

And actually, if they were were to implement a system such as I described it very much could happen. You would essentially have to lead different amounts depending on whether or not your opponent was strafing one direction versus the other. Depending on the actual range of which you're fighting you very much could lose a battle because someone was strafing away from your shot.

Again, the difference between a static and limited-dynamic spread is moderate on a stationary target. The difference between the two on a moving target is slight.
Point taken. I don't think this would occur to the degree you are suggesting, but I understand the potential problems with it.

This is my ideal patch to the BR spread. I realize the left column demonstrating the current spread is in error, as the first bullet in each set of bullets under the current system is always dead centre. However, the you get the basic idea.

Outside of 'red-reticle' range, you would need an almost impossibly high amount of skill to keep your reticle centered on your opponent, and have all your bullets land (unless your opponent was stationary). Within 'red reticle range', you would still need to keep your reticle dead on your opponent to achieve a 4sk, something that many players currently can't do.

Now, I'm interested to read what problems you'd have with this system.

  • 11.10.2008 1:05 PM PDT

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Actually it doesn't have a greater degree of accuracy. You can kill someone across Snowbound with 16/17 bullets from an Assault Rifle by single firing it. That is, or is close to, 100% efficiency. The Battle Rifle cannot operate with 100% efficiency at the range it was frickin' designed for.


Now that is a better argument, at some point I'll run some efficiency tests and post the results on Youtube, anyone who wants me to test any aspect of the BR, please PM me with your request and I'll check it out.

By the way, for anyone doubting my Kickback theory, please direct yourself to my Fileshare - BR Test 1.

  • 11.10.2008 1:08 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
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Posted by: Prodigy117
Its not like people aren't already asking for this anyway. Bungie don't have to respond to it anyway they have already banned all BR threads barring this one so what difference would it make. All I would ask is that they provide a comprehensive list of options that includes spread and single shot function primarily and perhaps auto aim, magnetism etc. This would satisfy a lot of MLG types who shun MM anyway.


If I were to guess...there is little chance in hell people will ever get the chance to change core game mechanics (such as bullet spread in H3) outside of modding content. It's because Bungie doesn't want to deal with it. And I'm still trying to grasp as to why Bungie would be going through considerable amounts of changes for a very minute sub-group (MLG) anyways? You can ask for all those options, but you'll never get them.

So you admit the effective range of an M16 is 200m, more than the BR then?

Sigh, the "effective" range of a real life firearm changes drastically depending on a lot of variables. In addition it's pretty hard to say for certain at what range personnel would be able to mitigate spread, windspeed, barometric, and Coriolis (although this is less of a problem since the range is shorter). Even with all of that. I'd probably say that the common-day M16 has a longer "effective" range than the H3 BR. Although I'd also say that pretty much all common-day shotguns have better "effective" range than the H3 shotgun.

So if you were attempting to trip me up here by making it seem like the H3 BR isn't realistic...it won't work.

As to your previous statement about strafing to control the spread, this is skill is it not. In any event I don't think strafing is fast enough nor responsive enough in relation to the delay between bullets exiting the barrel for it to be that effective.

As to your point that the target strafing away from the shot may cause it to miss. Would this not happen with a random spread anyway. Still both players have the ability to change their direction of strafe as the opponent fires, so to me this seems fair.


Like I said. If you had a static spread it would make it so you would have to lead or more on one side as compared to the other. And there would be ways to exploit that or what I call "game the system". Would it be any different than a semi-dynamic system? Not really from my point of view. People would still consistently miss shots because of the spread regardless of whether it's static or dynamic. The difference between the two would be almost impossible to tell unless directly told it was happening.

~B.B.

  • 11.10.2008 1:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: BerserkerBarage
If I were to guess...there is little chance in hell people will ever get the chance to change core game mechanics (such as bullet spread in H3) outside of modding content. It's because Bungie doesn't want to deal with it. And I'm still trying to grasp as to why Bungie would be going through considerable amounts of changes for a very minute sub-group (MLG) anyways? You can ask for all those options, but you'll never get them.

The hardcore players are the ones who stick around the longest. Also, Bungie changed several aspects of the BR midgame in H2, so they can do it now.

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Sigh, the "effective" range of a real life firearm changes drastically depending on a lot of variables. In addition it's pretty hard to say for certain at what range personnel would be able to mitigate spread, windspeed, barometric, and Coriolis (although this is less of a problem since the range is shorter). Even with all of that. I'd probably say that the common-day M16 has a longer "effective" range than the H3 BR. Although I'd also say that pretty much all common-day shotguns have better "effective" range than the H3 shotgun.

Agreed. Every weapon's range is shorter, for the most part. Also, the effective range of an M16 at 200 meters is probably not on burst fire. I guarantee you the burst will be all over the place (at least the secondary and tertiary bullets).

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Like I said. If you had a static spread it would make it so you would have to lead or more on one side as compared to the other. And there would be ways to exploit that or what I call "game the system". Would it be any different than a semi-dynamic system? Not really from my point of view. People would still consistently miss shots because of the spread regardless of whether it's static or dynamic. The difference between the two would be almost impossible to tell unless directly told it was happening.
~B.B.


I think I get what you're saying, but not quite sure. Essentially, strafing and the likes would be so comprable to a random second, and (mostly) third bullet, there wouldn't be much distinction between a non-random spread and a random one. At decent distances, it is rather random, as hitting pixel perfect as well as dealing with off-host has a whole slew of problems that a non-random spread would essentially still be somewhat random.

While I think I agree with you, for the most part, I guess a tightened spread would lessen those things. And even a non-random spread would depreciate the randomness. However, reading your earlier reply, I highly agree with you about carbines. BRs are too overrated and carbines are where the skill is at.

  • 11.10.2008 4:01 PM PDT
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yeah def. that was THE longest post ive ever seen

  • 11.10.2008 4:10 PM PDT

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Posted by: Breezy131

So, there would be nothing wrong with making the Battle Rifle consistent then.
It is consistent. It is just not predictable. There is a big difference.

Burst firing makes each one of those weapons much more accurate than holding down the trigger. But firing the Battle Rifle slower does nothing, and neither does anything else.Burst firing helps, but it does not close the gap. The spread in the other weapons is still much larger then the BR's "unchangeable" spread.

It isn't a discussion it's fact. And I could argue that letting players just run away from a fight so easily is bad for gameplay. I'll follow up if you really want to know.I agree, what you described is fact. It is how you decide on utilizing the BR in in an effective way. The debate rages on whether or not it is good for the game.

Actually it doesn't have a greater degree of accuracy. You can kill someone across Snowbound with 16/17 bullets from an Assault Rifle by single firing it. That is, or is close to, 100% efficiency. The Battle Rifle cannot operate with 100% efficiency at the range it was frickin' designed for.If you say so. I've never seen anyone single firing an AR at someone accross the map. I'm skeptical, but I do not know for sure.

And of course this debate is a matter of opinion! No frickin' joke!Why are you getting angry?

Well it's highly contradictory that you would choose to argue that the Battle Rifle is realistic (when it isn't) and yet you find it makes no sense that three bullets would always go to the same place.I did not say it was realistic. I said it aproximates behavior of it's real life counterpart. Of course it is not 100% accurate. It doesn't need to be to play the role it is designed for.

  • 11.10.2008 4:30 PM PDT

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Posted by: BerserkerBarage

As to the rifle comment old papa rich stated that the spread was designed to approximate the behaviour of its real life counterpart. Someone else brought up the example of the M16 and said even if that is the reason for spread it is not even close to its real life counterpart. Perhaps the info is not accurate but regardless we all know that the spread is purely there to limit the range of the BR, not for realism.

And here's a shock! Old Papa Rich is correct!!! Holy crap Batman. Bullet spread, weapons overheating, recoil, all that stuff in Halo is placed there to approximate the behavior of real life counterparts. However, they are included in the game because Bungie feels that they help balance the weapon (be it range or another variable).
I was starting to think no one who agreed with me would post. I think a tear of joy is forming in my left eye. On the subject, this is the meat of it. Some unpredictability and adversity make the game challenging. It would be like adding weather effects. How cool would that be? It would be random, only partially realistic, and totally out of the players control. But, it would be cool. Limiting the effectiveness of weapons is the same kind of variable and gives the game balance. Creating the limits by aproximating the performance of real life counterparts is logical.

[Edited on 11.10.2008 4:46 PM PST]

  • 11.10.2008 4:44 PM PDT
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Posted by: Old Papa Rich
It is consistent. It is just not predictable. There is a big difference

That is a flat out contradiction. If it were consistent then I could accurately predict where the bullets will land. However, my gameplay experiences and your own statement show that you can't accurately predict it. Therefore it is unpredictable. I can't believe I have to explain that to you.

Burst firing helps, but it does not close the gap. The spread in the other weapons is still much larger then the BR's "unchangeable" spread.
Actually it's not, but I'll elaborate later. And anyway, the point is that you can make it more accurate, where as with the Battle Rifle you cannot.

I agree, what you described is fact. It is how you decide on utilizing the BR in in an effective way. The debate rages on whether or not it is good for the game.
Why is it good that people should be able to cut and run so easily? Yeah, I guess responsibility for your choices and medium paced gameplay are bad things.

If you say so. I've never seen anyone single firing an AR at someone accross the map. I'm skeptical, but I do not know for sure
No one does it but it's definitely possible. Just like how I think the Battle Rifle should be able to become more accurate depending on how you fire it. It's range will increase but only to a certain point, beyond which it's impractical to use for anything other than descoping snipers.

Why are you getting angry?
I'm not angry. I'm telling you in no uncertain terms that this debate is about people's opinions and you're a fool if you think that you can discredit me by saying "well that's OPINION!"

I did not say it was realistic. I said it aproximates behavior of it's real life counterpart. Of course it is not 100% accurate. It doesn't need to be to play the role it is designed for.
I said it's a poor imitation of real life. And no it doesn't need to be 100% accurate I never said it did, I said it should be consistent. Stop making some stupid argument how it is consistent - because it isn't - and stop mischaracterizing my post.

It would be like adding weather effects. How cool would that be? It would be random, only partially realistic, and totally out of the players control.
If it affected gameplay it would suck.


[Edited on 11.10.2008 5:07 PM PST]

  • 11.10.2008 5:06 PM PDT

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Posted by: Breezy131
That is a flat out contradiction. If it were consistent then I could accurately predict where the bullets will land. However, my gameplay experiences and your own statement show that you can't accurately predict it. Therefore it is unpredictable. I can't believe I have to explain that to you.
And I can’t believe you feel you need to. Consistency is relative. The BR performs consistently every time. The spread is predictable in as much as you know it is going to happen. You also know the extent of it is relative to the range to target.

No one does it but it's definitely possible. Just like how I think the Battle Rifle should be able to become more accurate depending on how you fire it. It's range will increase but only to a certain point, beyond which it's impractical to use for anything other than descoping snipers.What do you propose? Burst firing a burst fire weapon? Firing one bullet at a time? Maybe we could call it a sniper rifle.

I'm not angry. I'm telling you in no uncertain terms that this debate is about people's opinions and you're a fool if you think that you can discredit me by saying "well that's OPINION!"Well, you seem ticked off. I’m just trying to have a discussion.

I said it's a poor imitation of real life. And no it doesn't need to be 100% accurate I never said it did, I said it should be consistent. Stop making some stupid argument how it is consistent - because it isn't - and stop mischaracterizing my post.I have made no attempt to misrepresent your posts. As for the level of the BR’s imitation of real life, I believe it is at a similar level to the rest of the Halo 3 universe.

It would be like adding weather effects. How cool would that be? It would be random, only partially realistic, and totally out of the players control.
If it affected gameplay it would suck.
If it didn’t affect gameplay it would be a waste of resources. To each his own.

Look, I’m not convincing you and you’re not convincing me. I believe that the random spread of the battle rifle is logical, workable, and realistic to a degree. The BR fills the role it is supposed to in the chess game Bungie created. I can appreciate that you desire something else, but I feel like you are missing the point of the design.


[Edited on 11.10.2008 5:41 PM PST]

  • 11.10.2008 5:40 PM PDT

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  • 11.10.2008 5:56 PM PDT

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  • 11.10.2008 5:57 PM PDT
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Then we're going to have to agree to disagree. I disagree that the Battle Rifle has to behave randomly and you don't. I know the BR fills the role it was meant to fill but I think it was a bad choice. I'm not missing the point of the design, just think there are better ways to balance the weapon.

Posted by: Old Papa Rich
And I can’t believe you feel you need to. Consistency is relative. The BR performs consistently every time. The spread is predictable in as much as you know it is going to happen. You also know the extent of it is relative to the range to target.

No it most certainly does not behave consistently. You can literally four shot someone in one scenario, and in the exact same situation some other time - literally every variable is the same - you will have to five or six shot them. That is not consistent. And it does happen. This is not opinion, this randomness is fact. I know the spread is going to happen, obviously, I just don't know where the bullets are going to go and the fact that there's lead means that the results can and more than just rarely are.

What do you propose? Burst firing a burst fire weapon? Firing one bullet at a time? Maybe we could call it a sniper rifle.
Another logical fallacy. I actually would propose changing the Battle Rifle very differently than what you described, but even if I did think we should be able to fire the BR one or two bullets at a time that would not make it a Sniper Rifle. Just because it's accurate doesn't make it practical at long ranges. Just like how you can single fire the Assault Rifle to make it very accurate yet it isn't practical medium range.

I have made no attempt to misrepresent your posts. As for the level of the BR’s imitation of real life, I believe it is at a similar level to the rest of the Halo 3 universe.
Well exactly! There is little to no realism in the Halo 3 universe. Plasma weaponry, Spartan supersoldiers, alien rings in the sky that will wipe out every sentient being in the galaxy. Those are not realistic. Just like how the Battle Rifle isn't, and shouldn't, not to mention that Bungie even stated that the Battle Rifle wasn't made that way for supposed realism but balance:

Posted by: Achronos
...The BR is like it is not because of realism, but because it IS a game, and weapons are generally given disadvantages to offset their strengths. I.E., the BR is supposed to have a spread like that to prevent it from being all powerful.

And in my opinion uncontrollable randomness is a bad way to balance a game. Yes I know it's my opinion, not fact.

If it didn’t affect gameplay it would be a waste of resources. To each his own.
I guess you must think that the sky, mountains around Valhalla, dunes around Sandtrap, hills outside Standoff, etc., are a waste of resources, then. Oh well, To each his own.

Oh, and here's the link to Achronos' post:
http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=18643907&p ostRepeater1-p=2#18648994


[Edited on 11.10.2008 6:22 PM PST]

  • 11.10.2008 6:01 PM PDT
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True dat...

  • 11.10.2008 7:03 PM PDT

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Posted by: Breezy131
No it most certainly does not behave consistently. You can literally four shot someone in one scenario, and in the exact same situation some other time – literally every variable is the same - you will have to five or six shot them. That is not consistent. And it does happen. This is not opinion, this randomness is fact. I know the spread is going to happen, obviously, I just don't know where the bullets are going to go and the fact that there's lead means that the results can and more than just rarely are.
The underlined portion is an assumption. You mean every variable you can control. The random spread accounts for variables you cannot see or control. It could be attributed to the recoil, the wind, gravity, whatever you like.

Well exactly! There is little to no realism in the Halo 3 universe. Plasma weaponry, Spartan supersoldiers, alien rings in the sky that will wipe out every sentient being in the galaxy. Those are not realistic. Just like how the Battle Rifle isn't, and shouldn't, not to mention that Bungie even stated that the Battle Rifle wasn't made that way for supposed realism but balance:

Posted by: Achronos
...The BR is like it is not because of realism, but because it IS a game, and weapons are generally given disadvantages to offset their strengths. I.E., the BR is supposed to have a spread like that to prevent it from being all powerful.

And in my opinion uncontrollable randomness is a bad way to balance a game. Yes I know it's my opinion, not fact.
Yes, the game designers purpose was to balance the game. I’ve acknowledged this. My argument has always been that they way in which they did this was to approximate its real life counterpart which has a spread of rounds due in large part to the rapid fire and recoil. It is not a perfect replica, but a representation in the game. And, it works.

I guess you must think that the sky, mountains around Valhalla, dunes around Sandtrap, hills outside Standoff, etc., are a waste of resources, then. Oh well, To each his own.I love the backgrounds and scenery. But, if you’re going to add wind, rain, snow, or whatever, it might as well impact the battlefield or it is wasted energy. I’ll drop this as it is getting far off track.

  • 11.10.2008 7:36 PM PDT
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The underlined portion is an assumption. You mean every variable you can control. The random spread accounts for variables you cannot see or control. It could be attributed to the recoil, the wind, gravity, whatever you like.
No this is not an assumption. Have you not seen any BR tests on YouTube or some other website? People are firing the Battle Rifle in the exact same position, at the exact same place, and at the exact intervals, and the results are different. The effect is even more amplified in a dynamic environment.

There is no wind, gravity isn't a factor otherwise the bullets would droop, and your argument makes no sense. The Sniper Rifle doesn't have spread even though it would be just as effected by those factors as other weapons.

The random spread is not accounting for anything. It is simply random for the sake of being random. Bungie didn't design the weapon that way thinking "well gee, nonexistent wind might affect the bullets, so we better make it random". They did it because they wanted to balance it.

Yes, the game designers purpose was to balance the game. I’ve acknowledged this. My argument has always been that they way in which they did this was to approximate its real life counterpart which has a spread of rounds due in large part to the rapid fire and recoil. It is not a perfect replica, but a representation in the game. And, it works.
No it doesn't work. It has terrible range from both a gameplay and realism point of view, and if you still want to talk realism then consider that the Plasma Pistol is more accurate than the Battle Rifle, or that the Magnum's and Shotgun's bullets mysteriously disappear after a certain range. So you can throw the realism argument out the window. Halo has never been about realism or approximations to realism. You're just being flat out absurd.

And if you seriously can't come up with a better counter argument than "well it's an approximation of realism", which it simply isn't, then I'm going to stop arguing with you. Because you aren't making any sense and every point you brought up I've refuted even if it's taken page after page of posts to cut through your stubbornness and half baked assertions.

[Edited on 11.10.2008 7:57 PM PST]

  • 11.10.2008 7:56 PM PDT

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Posted by: Breezy131
No this is not an assumption. Have you not seen any BR tests on YouTube or some other website? People are firing the Battle Rifle in the exact same position, at the exact same place, and at the exact intervals, and the results are different. The effect is even more amplified in a dynamic environment.

There is no wind, gravity isn't a factor otherwise the bullets would droop, and your argument makes no sense. The Sniper Rifle doesn't have spread even though it would be just as effected by those factors as other weapons.

The random spread is not accounting for anything. It is simply random for the sake of being random. Bungie didn't design the weapon that way thinking "well gee, nonexistent wind might affect the bullets, so we better make it random". They did it because they wanted to balance it.
I don’t spend any time watching Youtube BR tests for two reasons. One, I have better things to do. Two, I don't have a problem with it and therefore do not feel the need to expose it's weakness. I know what the weakness is. It makes sense to me. The purpose it serves in the game play and the style with which they did it are absolutely logical. I'm sorry that your unending desire to have different sort of weapon and a different sort of game has clouded your vision.

No it doesn't work. It has terrible range from both a gameplay and realism point of view, and if you still want to talk realism then consider that the Plasma Pistol is more accurate than the Battle Rifle, or that the Magnum's and Shotgun's bullets mysteriously disappear after a certain range. So you can throw the realism argument out the window. Halo has never been about realism or approximations to realism. You're just being flat out absurd.

And if you seriously can't come up with a better counter argument than "well it's an approximation of realism", which it simply isn't, then I'm going to stop arguing with you. Because you aren't making any sense and every point you brought up I've refuted even if it's taken page after page of posts to cut through your stubbornness and half baked assertions.
If it didn't work, no one would use the BR. Your feelings about the range sell it short. The best players can dominate the game with it. Your expectations of perfection will disappoint you in many areas of your life, not just Halo. I will not come up with a better argument that "it is an approximation of realism," because that is one of only two arguments that apply. Finding more things that are not realistic does not change that fact. Video games keep getting more and more realistic. That doesn't mean that they are all the way there. Choices have to be made by developers to maintain the gameplay dynamic that they are looking for. As games get more realistic, the flaws that result from those choices shine brighter than they did when games were more abstract. Take Madden Football. Fifteen years ago, people would ooh and ahh at the cool little sprites that moved like real guys and how they could almost see the logo on the helmet. Now, when you look at the newest version of the game, you see tremendous representations that all you can do is notice the little things that don’t seem right. Is the older game more realistic? Of course not. You are being way too absolute. Halo is a science fiction/fantasy video game that has never taken itself too seriously. I understand that

  • 11.11.2008 5:17 AM PDT

Posted by: Old Papa Rich
I don’t spend any time watching Youtube BR tests for two reasons. One, I have better things to do. Two, I don't have a problem with it and therefore do not feel the need to expose it's weakness. I know what the weakness is. It makes sense to me. The purpose it serves in the game play and the style with which they did it are absolutely logical. I'm sorry that your unending desire to have different sort of weapon and a different sort of game has clouded your vision.


I can see your point of view. Basically you don't mind that the BR is a bit random especially at long range where it is very random. You also don't mind that there is some luck involved in BR fights due to its randomness. You also don't mind that the BR has quite a short maximum effective range because you don't want it to be too dominant, even though this then means other weapons that take minimal aiming skill and promote camping are forced upon the player. A lot of people prefer the CE pistol including me, we believe that this makes for a much better game and obviously are dissapointed with the way the series has progressed.

If it didn't work, no one would use the BR. Your feelings about the range sell it short. The best players can dominate the game with it. Your expectations of perfection will disappoint you in many areas of your life, not just Halo. I will not come up with a better argument that "it is an approximation of realism," because that is one of only two arguments that apply. Finding more things that are not realistic does not change that fact. Video games keep getting more and more realistic. That doesn't mean that they are all the way there. Choices have to be made by developers to maintain the gameplay dynamic that they are looking for. As games get more realistic, the flaws that result from those choices shine brighter than they did when games were more abstract. Take Madden Football. Fifteen years ago, people would ooh and ahh at the cool little sprites that moved like real guys and how they could almost see the logo on the helmet. Now, when you look at the newest version of the game, you see tremendous representations that all you can do is notice the little things that don’t seem right. Is the older game more realistic? Of course not. You are being way too absolute. Halo is a science fiction/fantasy video game that has never taken itself too seriously. I understand that

Games do get more realistic however this should not mean that the game should become less competitive and more random. As stated by Bungie the spread is not there for realism it is there to balance the weapon. Obviously it would make no sense that master chief can flip an elephant but then Bungie would also go to such lengths as to implement a random spread on the BR for the purpose of realism. You can say that anything is based on realism, for example you can say that all 3D games are an approximation of realism because we actually live in 3 physical dimentions. I think the only way you could apply the realism argument when referring to the BR spread would be if the whole game strictly adhered to realism, clearly it doesn't. Hopefully we can now stop using the realism argument when it comes to the random spread.

The only reason players dominate with the BR is that it is a headshot weapon. It is not difficult to weaken players with grenades and then finish them off. You can do this just as easily with a carbine and to be honest I don't find it much harder to do, yes you have to be a bit more accurate than the BR but at the same time there is less of a penalty for missing a shot because of the fast rate of fire. Even the magnum can be used to dominate lesser skilled players although it is a bit more difficult than the other two.

When it comes to higher level players there isn't much of a skill gap with the BR and it comes down to connection more than anything a lot of the time. This is also something that really needs to be fixed as hit registration online is very inconsistent.

The BR at the moment isn't all that skilled IMO as it is too easy to aim and too easy to get headshots. Ideally I would like for the BR to be a single shot weapon and have less auto-aim so that it is harder to use but more effective at range, I don't see any need for spread as the difficulty of aiming the weapon should balance it. It would be slightly harder to use in close range in my opinion due to having to rely on one bullet for a headshot and less auto-aim. It would still be nowhere near as good as the sniper at range because there would be no auto-aim at longer ranges and the bullet speed would be slower requiring leading. Yes such a weapon would be powerful but only if your good with it and close range weapons would still beat it as would long range weapons such as the sniper and laser.

  • 11.11.2008 7:10 AM PDT
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theirs notin wrong with it why are people making such a fuss it matters on strength not design.... well thats wat I think

  • 11.11.2008 7:59 AM PDT