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Subject: Scotland
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  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Graeme, dont be an anti-american. Dont know why ur focusing on the US when plenty of other countries believe the same thing. You all like to be divided dont you? Thats a problem in this world you people are letting grow. Everybody likes to be independent and with no unity. Goweb, Princeton may think they are but I dont. How come Scotland, Wales, England, and N. Ireland all have the same currency? If Scotland is so independent from England, dont you think they would change to the euro?

  • 04.01.2005 3:04 PM PDT
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My friend, you would not tell with ſuch high zeſt
To children ardent for ſome deſperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum eſt
Pro patria mori.

Well, you're being far too regid in your analysis of European state structures. Also, I think you're confusing "state" with "country" and "nation"; but then so do a lot of people.

Scotland may not have absolute sovereignty over it's own affairs, but it's still a country. But then again, no EU member states have full sovereignty. Research "Neo-medievalism" for more information.

For the time being though, just rest assured that Goweb, Frankie and myself [all people who actually come from the UK] know what we're talking about on the matter.

  • 04.01.2005 4:59 PM PDT
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Texas Ben, what are you smoking??????

Scotland IS a country, no technicality about it. I live in Scotland at the moment, Im Half scottish, half Irish. N Ireland is under rule by Westminster (We sometimes have home rule when we arent -blam!- about being idiots). IT IS STILL A COUNTRY THOUGH!!!!!!

  • 04.01.2005 5:35 PM PDT
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Letz rock, N Irish currency is not legal tender within England. It is also not legal tender (technically) In wales or Scotland, however Scotland is nice and recognises it as an official currency and accepts it.

  • 04.01.2005 5:37 PM PDT
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I actually read over all your posts and its hilarious you cant accept when your wrong "Must be some pro scottish site" LMAO!!!!

Yes, as was said, simply because it differs from the american setup doesnt mean It isnt there. The united kingdom is a KINGDOM, even a dumdum could figure that out from its NAME.

N Ireland, is also technically not british. The united Kingdom in its current state formally came into existance when Ireland was partitioned into Northern Ireland and the South of Ireland (Known as the free state then, which later became the republic).

  • 04.01.2005 5:46 PM PDT

How come Scotland, Wales, England, and N. Ireland all have the same currency?
Actually, quite a few English shops don't accept Scottish cash.
Goweb, Princeton may think they are but I dont.
In the end, it doesn't really matter what you think. Some people think that 2+2=79, but that doesn't mean that they aren't wrong. Most of the world think that Americans are evil - by your logic, that would make it correct, even though it so plainly isn't.

[Edited on 4/1/2005 5:53:00 PM]

  • 04.01.2005 5:49 PM PDT
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goweb, A wise ninja that you are!!!!!!

  • 04.01.2005 6:14 PM PDT
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i pose you a query, trebeck...

india used to be a part of this "British Empire", much the same as the US, Southern Ireland, various African countries, Canada, and Australia were.

whats the difference between a state and a country? i would say, everyone up there had to fight for their status as a country...so why does Scotland get it for free? they are not a country in my book, MY BOOK, mind you, until they make themselves one. i live in Michigan, which shows up on a lot of maps as MICHIGAN. that doesnt make us a COUNTRY. we are a state, with a government, but until we decide we've had enough of the USA, thats all we'll be. and i dont see that happening until the next big riot in detroit.

canada and australia are what, commonwealths? they took the easy road, and are still the UK's lapdogs (australians rock, though, and i drink in canada constantly, so ignore the lapdog comment, border patrol). they are NOT countries in the sense that the USA is a country.

say what you will about scotland being a country...they are not countries in the way that these other places are. in MY book. i gave up long ago on arguing with ninja's...they will outwit you every time with word games, garunteed. especially against a Texan (rosebowl was rigged).

lay it on.

  • 04.01.2005 9:13 PM PDT
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You seperatists can think what you want, go ahead and act like an independent country you anti-americans. You all like to act like rebels and proud scots that are too proud you cant stand to be united along with Wales, England, and N Ireland. Go ahead and center your accusations against the Americans even though the rest of the world sees the UK as the country with the Union Jack as your flag. I have no idea what kind of point goweb was trying to make by saying people think Americans are evil, how does someones view of geography show someone is evil? Thats pretty mindless. Here is a site that shows the european countries how most of the world sees them. http://www.spacetoday.org/Europe/EuroGlance.html

  • 04.01.2005 10:46 PM PDT

I have no idea what kind of point goweb was trying to make by saying people think Americans are evil, how does someones view of geography show someone is evil?
*smacks forehead*

You said that if most people don't think that Scotland is a country then it isn't. I was just applying your logic to another situation.
You all like to act like rebels and proud scots that are too proud you cant stand to be united along with Wales, England, and N Ireland.
I'm not Scottish.
Go ahead and center your accusations against the Americans even though the rest of the world sees the UK as the country with the Union Jack as your flag.
Then why do so many people refer to ENGLISH people, and why do so many people say they love ENGLAND?
i would say, everyone up there had to fight for their status as a country...so why does Scotland get it for free?
They fought very hard for devolution, and the right to make some of their own laws.

You have to remember that before we were unified there was a hell of a lot of bloodshed. Unification brought peace between England and Scotland.

[Edited on 4/2/2005 4:20:55 AM]

  • 04.02.2005 4:18 AM PDT
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Posted by: Letz Rock
Graeme, dont be an anti-american.


I'm not an anti-american as I know a few americans and i quite like them. I was simply stating that, from my experience, Americans try to view the UK in the way they view America. When this happens it confuses the whole issue as it would make Scotland a state, which it is not. You see Scotland used to be a country and i believe entry into unity with the UK shouldn't change that. I searched in google and found this: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html
Have a look and scroll down untill you see the goverment of the UK section. It says: "conventional long form: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; note - Great Britain includes the countries of England, Scotland, and Wales "

So therefore even the CIA regognises Scotland as its own country. I have nothing against unity with the UK as it is beneficial for Scotland, despite this my nationality is Scotland. I will always try not and describe myself as British because that is not who i am.

As for what mattski133 has said whats the difference between a state and a country? i would say, everyone up there had to fight for their status as a country...so why does Scotland get it for free? they are not a country in my book
Does that mean that if you want to be a country then you have to fight for it? There are plenty of countries that simply exist and didn't have to fight for their status as a country. Does that make them anyless countries. Scotland DID fight for its independence, it just didn't win. So do you think that Scots should use violence then to get the message across that they want to be independant? I don't. I think that the UK is a benneficial Kingdom that everyone can be part of, but that should not strip Scotland of its status as a countrie.

  • 04.02.2005 4:46 AM PDT
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Okay lets move on to currency. Why on earth don't we have the Euro yet!!!!???

  • 04.02.2005 6:16 AM PDT
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My friend, you would not tell with ſuch high zeſt
To children ardent for ſome deſperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum eſt
Pro patria mori.

Meh, because most people don't know economics is why.

Anyhow, why not continue this discussion over at Reiginko's chapter Body Politic, where it belongs really.

  • 04.02.2005 7:20 AM PDT
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"You said that if most people don't think that Scotland is a country then it isn't. I was just applying your logic to another situation." -goweb
I never said that, if you could she me a post where I said that would be nice. Im getting tired of this topic and if you think Scotland is a country, (this is to the Scots) get your lazy *** government to go around and tell the world that the UK isnt the country and to change their geography books, maps, etc. Millions of people think the UK is the country and if you Scots are so proud of your "country", you'd be getting your govt. to start telling other countries.

[Edited on 4/2/2005 10:44:37 AM]

  • 04.02.2005 10:44 AM PDT
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Posted by: Letz Rock
Here is a site that shows the european countries how most of the world sees them. http://www.spacetoday.org/Europe/EuroGlance.html


Isn't this how Americans sees the world? After reading your posts, it looks like it...

Give it up little boy.

  • 04.02.2005 11:13 AM PDT
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Scotland is great and i hate being specified as 'UK'. i want to say that Scotland is a country and UK does not = England. i hate it when people say that. Sure, we are part of UK, but i really like Scotland for the independance. So please put Scotland as a country option. I am Scottish and i am proud of that, so i want people to know i am from Scotland, not UK.

  • 04.02.2005 11:51 AM PDT
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"Does that mean that if you want to be a country then you have to fight for it?"

alright heres a good scenario to test whether or not scotland is a country...have scotland's "parliament" get together, draw up their Declaration of Independance from the United Kingdom, and hand it to the UK's parliament. if they let Scotland go, you're your own country. if they dont, guess what? you are owned by a REAL country.

no i dont think you should have to fight for everything...but thats how it works. the fact that the scots fought and lost countless times shows that they have really bad timing...the US left during Napoleans romp...many African countries left during the World Wars. if scotland was content to be a part of the Empire then, why do you whine about not being independant now? if you think just because England let you into the UK that it made you independant, or that you will become independant over time, i think you misjudged the situation.

scotland was a country for about, i dont know, a few hundred years before England had enough? Websters NewWorld dictionary refers to Scotland as "a division of the united kingdom." there have always been Scottish people, and they are proud of their history and all that business, but that doesnt mean you are your own country.

take the South over here...they fought the bloodiest war in our history to be independant. guess what? they lost, and now, the South is part of the Union. Texas was once its own country, they kicked Mexico's ass and joined the USA, and now, they are part of the US. they are proud to be from texas, and the south, just like people are proud to be from New England, people are proud to be Mid-western, on and on...but we are one country. and we dont gripe about not being able to put "Southerner" or "Texan" or "West Coast" as our country. but you find it easy to gripe about "Scotsman" not being on the list.

i dont get it. nothing on this post other than "its name is on a map" makes Scotland a country. they dont have their own currency, economy, military, rights, or anything. so what if they have a government? my township has a government. they are not a country.

  • 04.02.2005 2:37 PM PDT
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My friend, you would not tell with ſuch high zeſt
To children ardent for ſome deſperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum eſt
Pro patria mori.

Allright, this is getting silly.

There is a difference between the words COUNTRY, NATION and STATE. Listen to the people WHO ACTUALLY LIVE HERE when they tell you that the Scots are a nation of people, possessing a country of their own. That their country is in Union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland to create a single administritive area means nothing.

France, Germany, and ten other states are in union together to form a common currency area, and with a further thirteen states a customs and political area; but that changes nothing [indeed, France and Germany themselves have many countries, including Bavaria and Brittanny].

Scotland has it's own currency; issued by the Bank of Scotland, the Royal Bank of Scotland and the Clydesdale Bank Information HERE. Scotland has it's own legal system, which curiously enough has no concept of "legal tender" [hence all notes are in effect cheques].


There are five countries within the United Kingdom; the Kingdom of Scotland, the Kingdom of England, the Principality of Wales, the Province of Northern Ireland and the Dutchy of Cornwall.

From: Wikipedia

Sometimes, parts of states with a distinct history or culture are called "lands" or "countries": England, Scotland and Wales – the three nations on the island of Great Britain – are known as countries, even though they are effectively governed as "components" of the British state. Tibet, an autonomous region of China, is similary called a country in everyday speech.

The terms country, nation, state and land are casually used as synonyms, but in a more strict usage they are distinguished:

* Country is the geographical area
* Nation designates a people, however national and international both confusingly refer as well to matters pertaining to what are strictly states, as in national capital, international law
* State refers to government, and an entity in international law
* Land may be used for "a country and its people" but also thought of as country belonging to a nation or a monarch

Some states consist of non-contiguous parts, separated by land of one or more other states. The Kaliningrad region of Russia is an example of such an exclave; the Oecussi-Ambeno region of East Timor or Nagorno-Karabagh are others.


Now really, should this not be taken to Reiginko's Body Politic chapter?!

[Edited on 4/2/2005 4:43:17 PM]

  • 04.02.2005 4:35 PM PDT
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I have 1 last thing to say, Rimen you are retarded and you obviously arent mature enough to post in this topic. I respect the opinions of the Scots and you have all made me think differently about Scotland and these points you guys are making makes me wonder.

  • 04.02.2005 10:23 PM PDT
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But we have to make a deal...you can call Scotland a country.

But i have to be able to call Michigan a country.

you explain the difference between those two statements...and you can have it.

By the way, if the "union" of the UK means nothing, then why is there a war being fought over there in Ireland...what are they fighting for? is it not so they can express their own religion? i would have thought a country could do that...unless...they weren't a country.

so on that note, i leave you.

  • 04.02.2005 10:24 PM PDT

But we have to make a deal...you can call Scotland a country.

But i have to be able to call Michigan a country.

you explain the difference between those two statements...and you can have it.

Michigan is a STATE.

Scotland is a COUNTRY.

Try doing some decent geography.
By the way, if the "union" of the UK means nothing, then why is there a war being fought over there in Ireland...what are they fighting for? is it not so they can express their own religion? i would have thought a country could do that...unless...they weren't a country.
The Republicans are fighting to unite Northern Ireland and Eire. The Unionists are fighting to keep Northern Ireland under the control of the UK government. It has political and religous reasons, and therefore is not for discussion here.

The union does mean something. It doesn't mean that the individual countries lose their right to be countries. Hell, if that was the case then the European Union would mean that we'd have to be in a country called Europe. You could probably even extend that logic to the UN.

  • 04.03.2005 4:59 AM PDT
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Seriuosly we Irish had it right. Fight for the love of god and give the UK the s#%tiest part of Eire if ye must, but never back down. And seriously Scots, if you want to be recognized as a country fight the Brits, look at America and Ireland and tell an irish boy tisn't true.

  • 04.03.2005 12:28 PM PDT

Posted by: mattski133
By the way, if the "union" of the UK means nothing, then why is there a war being fought over there in Ireland...what are they fighting for? is it not so they can express their own religion? i would have thought a country could do that...unless...they weren't a country.


u r so wrong it is not a war, there was a terrorist/freedom (variying P.O.V.) campaign fought by some, that was funded by some americans. But the violence is over.

  • 04.03.2005 12:47 PM PDT
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i dont know what part of my good spelling or researched ideas gave you the idea that i am an idiot, but i'll clarify that right now.

The Act of Union (1707)-
"passed by English and Scottish parliaments in 1707 united the kingdoms of England and Scotland into the (one) kingdom (country, nation, etc) of Great Britain...the act provided for Scottish represenation in the British (great britain's) Parliament...thus the Scottish parliament was abolished (disbanded, erased, gone, non-existant). In addition, the Scots received equal trading rights with England and its overseas empire. Scotland was allowed to keep its judiciary system (for easy absorbtion)." (meaning that they are now Great Britain's).

and everything i have read (outside of this post) refers to scotland as a divison of Great Britian.

this act was passed between Scottish and English nobles to bypass a potential war between the Jacobites (scottish rebels) and England. that makes it clear to me, at least, what is going on here. the Scottish government was disbanded and the english picked people to replace them in the new GB pariliament...read on to see why i see your point.

it seems that in 1800 the same thing happened between the new Great Britain Parliament and Irish nobles, after an Irish rebellion was defeated by the British (including scotland)...so unless that was unclear, it means that the Act of Union 1707 saw independant people of scotland (having their own kingdom, for several hundred years) were sold out by their own leaders, and were absorbed into Great Britain (for several hundred years now).

so that sheds some new light on this for me...you were once a country, and were then sold out by people you who let rule you, and now you're still pissed about it. still doesnt make you a country; it makes you a PEOPLE, a REGION, or a STATE of a country. this sounds exactly like what Texas was based on...you wont find people more proud of their history in the US, but they are just as proud to be USA as they are Texan. such is life.

history moves on, and personally, i dont care where my opponents or teammates are from as far as Halo is concerned...as long as they want to win as badly as i do, and dont cheat.

  • 04.03.2005 12:51 PM PDT
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Fair enough, i'll grant you that we lost our independance, but hey, we got it back. We now have our own parliment and rule ourselves: Homepage
However it is fair to say that this is not complete independance as the British parliment may still pass some laws down to Scotland: BUT IT DOESN'T RULE THEM. The British parliment acts in the same way as that we are part of the European parliment in that they can pass some laws. So Scotland rules itself. It also has its own courts and Judicial system unlike American states which have federal courts. Scottish law is quite diffrent to English law. Therefore we rule ourself and have our own law. We also have our own currency and sports teams. The diffrence between countries in the UK and states in the US is that the US is the united STATES. The UK is a kingdom which happens to be made up of countries.
So to summarise the diffrences between the US states and the UK countries:
1: Scotland rules itself
2: Scotland has its own laws, and courts wheras states have federal courts
3: Scotland has its own currency
4: Scotland has its own sports teams

But we did lose our independance in 1707 however we didn't lose our right to be a country
The Act of Union (1707)-
"The Act of Union (1707)-
passed by English and Scottish parliaments in 1707 united the kingdoms of England and Scotland into the (one) kingdom
its all in the wording it became a Kingdom not a country. If it was merged into a country then it would be called the united country or something like that but it is a kindom. I would challenge you to tell me why Scotland should not be a country.

  • 04.03.2005 3:03 PM PDT

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