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This topic has moved here: Subject: What it means to be "Hero"
  • Subject: What it means to be "Hero"
Subject: What it means to be "Hero"
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I recently saw Spiderman and Spiderman 2 (in the same day :P ) and loved the whole concept of what it means to be a hero... the central theme... "to be a hero is to be alone"... whilst this is true in most cases with heroes, there are several discrepancies. namely, when a hero's "sidekick" is also greater than your average joe.
Marathon/Halo are one of these alternate takes, where you are accompanied by another "hero", another entity capable of defending themselves and not providing your enemies with a weakness.

Both protagonists have their "sidekick" AI's but neither of them have any real friends as such. sure you may count captain keyes or possibly even blake, but no lasting friends. However, our heroes continue on defending a race they no longer even belong to (in a manner of speaking... given that both are more than human. They have little or no prolonged contact with people, yet strive to protect them at all costs.
When you think about it, why do they continue fighting? I think this is a great question, sure they both have military type backgrounds, but do they have some other motivation or is that it?

In Peter Parker's case it is his uncle who dies because of something he doesn't do... Bruce Wayne is torn apart after his parents murder and he is seeking the one responsible while making all other evil pay... the X-men fight rogue mutants to try and stabilise the relationship between mutants and non-mutants... I'm sure some other comic buff can think of more than I can :P

So I put this question to you... why do you think the Security Officer on the marathon and the Master Chief, john 117, continue their fight for mankind?

  • 07.10.2004 7:52 AM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

I think the term "hero" means to do good.... through whatever intentions or means.

You have complete heroes.... Who do good with the intent to do good. These include Batman, Spiderman, Superman, and many others.

You have semi-heroes.... Who do good... but not necessarily with completely good intent. They may have become heroes through folly (those listed above somewhat fit into that as well),... not even wanting to become heroes or to do good.... they may have just wanted to do their duty. They also don't have ideal character... meaning they are more human than "superhuman." Filled with doubts, emotion, wrong choices, and such. These are more like average people who were just put into the "right" circumstances to become a hero... sometimes their duty requires heroic action (which might actually be not that heroic in some peoples' eyes... but that action may involve willingly killing hundreds of people. These types of heroes are the most interesting, in my opinion. They include The Master Chief, Sam Fisher (Splinter Cell), JC Denton (or Alex Denton, I supppose... but JC was more interesting to me... they're from the Deus Ex series, by the way), Spawn, Paul-Muad'Dib and Leto II (Dune series), and many others.

Then you have anti-heroes.... Who do good without wanting to. Evil fighting Evil. The best example I can come up with is Riddick, from Pitch Black and Chronicles of Riddick... I know of others, but they have just slipped my mind, sorry.

Those are my hero-definitions.

  • 07.10.2004 10:17 AM PDT
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Spidey and 117 were once normal.

They had normal lives and enjoyed it.

Then something happenned... they don't know exactly what but it did anyway, and they became different, and more aware of a threat to the human race which they loved so much and probably wouldn't mind being part of completely again.

Thi is why they want to save it, they were once part of it... and still want to be part of it again.

  • 07.10.2004 10:19 AM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

I think 117 is more different than Spidey in that aspect.... what you say is somewhat true.... but the Master Chief doesn't completely fit there.

Just my thoughts.

"Spiderman, Spiderman,
Can do anything a spider can."

... and also somethings that a spider can't... such as fall from a tall building and not show so much as a scratch. Spiders can't do that.... they go splat when they fall.... even when you shrink the building down to proportional size.... they still go splat.

  • 07.10.2004 10:30 AM PDT
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Posted by: Shai Hulud
I think 117 is more different than Spidey in that aspect.... what you say is somewhat true.... but the Master Chief doesn't completely fit there.


I suppose that that is a good point, and also the aspect that 117 was actually harmed by humans to make him what he is is a very important aspect. Halsey always had the worries throughout their training and augmentation that they would be harmed too much.

Despite this, he still fights for us.

Something i forgot again was how he was brought up.... What would you do if you had been groomed from the age of 6 to become a SPARTAN.

Your head would be so full of propoganda ((eg. "on the ground, SPARTANs ALWAYS win")) that you wouldn't think of questioning the human's cause.

It's actually not at all a way of loving the human race, but how he was made to fight, that is his life.

  • 07.10.2004 10:58 AM PDT
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A hero doesn't necessarily have to do soimething, or be someone exceptional and super human. All a hero has to do is put themselves before others and expect nothing in return. People that go down to flooded areas in order to rescue people, or provide aide are heroes. A person who spends an extra few minutes on the way home from work to help out a kid that fell off his/her bike is a hero. You don't have to save all of human race, or some kid from a burning building in order to be called a "hero". I probably saved a persons life in the past, and they don't even know it.

  • 07.10.2004 3:13 PM PDT

There are two groups of people in the world - those that hope, and those that wish. The first group hopes that nothing bad will happen. The second group wishes that they are there when it does. Which one are you?

-Felix

The definition of a Hero depends upon the same things that history itself relies upon... the perspective you are looking at it from. To the Covenant, MC is not a hero. If the Covenant were to ultimately win the war, no one would remember the MC as we would. Is there a type of hero that remains such no matter how you look at it?

  • 07.10.2004 4:08 PM PDT

Posted by: durandal8371010
...why do you think the Security Officer on the marathon and the Master Chief, john 117, continue their fight for mankind?

[color=white]I've never played Marathon, but I'll take a stab at John 117, our beloved MC.

When Dr. Halsey found the first of the children who would become Spartans, she saw a boy whose drive to win, to survive, was greater than she had ever seen. Something in John, perhaps his parents' teaching, the circumstances of his young life pre-Halsey, something drove him to constantly better himself.

Through his training and the suffering he experienced in becoming the enigma we know as the Mjolnir-armored MC, John's drive rarely wavered, and his desire to survive never did.
I think the heroic actions John performs are simply his nature--he cannot stop, he cannot not be a hero (this sounds like an easy way out, I know).

Perhaps he clings (as we all do) to life, and knows life as we humans know it. Any force that threatens to steal or destroy that life is an enemy, and John will not stop until that threat is neutralized or eliminated completely. His drive to survive naturally expands to encompass the whole of humanity.

John appears to have no ego to get in the way, no little devil in his head to whisper,[/color] [color=red]"Why fight for the weak, insignificant humans. You were once like them, but can never be like them again... Let them die."[/color]
[color=white]Even if that voice were in his head, I doubt he'd listen to it. He still believes he can be "normal" one day. He has hope, and he gives hope to others in the darkest moments, when all seems lost.

Great topic, by the way. It's these kinds of topics that keep me coming back to these forums.[/color]

  • 07.10.2004 7:49 PM PDT
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I think you guys said what needs to be said.
Although, if you take a look at Marathon, the hero seems to be more
of an avatar. (hehe, as I'm writing this my computer says it's 11:17pm)
He is hero. I like to think that Bungie tries to make their heroes
have a mythological quality, like when you read ancient stories like the
Iliad and the heroes are simply god-like.

  • 07.10.2004 9:11 PM PDT
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The intention of this discussion was aimed more towards those heroes who are placed in their position by no fault of their own, simply because they are more than what others are... ie those with superhuman abilities...

When I was writing this I had my own ideas forming in my head, but decided it best to see what other said first.

Heres a thought for you... what if the SO and the MC are not doing it necessarily out of care for what happens to humanity? It has been proposed that the SO in marathon is, as a cyborg, conditioned to follow the orders of the AI's on the Marathon. (as Durandal said, "why is it that you run around following my every command?") That he is unable to break their "hold" on him.
It could be the same for MC, psycho-conditioned by humans to protect them no matter what the risk. Think of the Terminator movies (2 and 3 specifically) he is programmed to save connor, he has no choice about it, but gives it his all...

My other theory was the survival instinct mentioned earlier, it could be that they are merely doing what they must to survive, and its just handy that the humans are saved in the process. But I find this less plausible... look at what MC says at the end of Halo... "Did anyone else make it?" and Cortana starts going on about how we saved everyone else, and despite this he's upset that he let anybody die.

Thanks for the compliment on the post... I love this type of thing too ;-)

  • 07.10.2004 11:42 PM PDT
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While I see what your saying about the Terminator movies, the Spartans fight because they don't know anything else. They aren't robots that can be programed. The most I can tell is that they were raised to fight, so they do. No brainwashing. Just trainning.

I think they are heros because they save lives. Every hero isn't a hero unless he/she saves something. I also think they do WANT to save humanity. If they were to see a small child killed (torn apart) by a jackal, I think it would feel for the loss of the child's life.

  • 07.11.2004 12:52 AM PDT
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lol *shakes head*
You say its "just training." that there is "no brainwashing"... look at your sig! "SPARTANs never die" that is what they are taught! if thats not indoctrination I don't know what is :P
They have only been taught warfare as you put it, that is a form of brainwashing in its own right, when they look at the world around them they don't see the trees, the faces... they see battlegrounds, exploitable native foliage, enemies/allies...

They are heroes because they save lives... but that doesn't mean they know they're a hero, nor whether or not they choose to be so... They may be feeling loss for the childs life but the way they are described I think they would, more importantly, be seeing a break in the jackals defences.

Adn when I spoke of programming, it was made more in referrence to the SO of marathon (given that he is a cyborg) but isn't the MC the same? surely if there's space to put an AI in your head there's room for a little bit of preprogramming

  • 07.11.2004 4:12 AM PDT
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I agree with durandul8371010 the spartans would be drilled from a young age probably with a vow like "i so do swear to protect the human race even if it results in my death, i will never stop trying" and if a child was brought up like that they would never have room in their head for doing otherwhise

  • 07.16.2004 12:00 AM PDT
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Dammit Kieran! Learn to spell, punctuate and use grammar!!!!

  • 07.16.2004 5:42 PM PDT

Ach! Was ist los?

I won't speak for John-117, but I do have some comments regarding the Marathon Man.

From the manuals and terminals we know that the SO grew up on Mars, lost his father at the age of se7en and opted for a military carreer. This apparently lead to the asteroid Republic of Thermopylae, where combat injuries prompted his conversion into a MJOLNIR cyborg. He was later put aboard the Marathon and spent several years disguised as a human on Tau Ceti IV before the Pfhor showed up.

My point is that he was once fully human and lived like most humans, so he probably needed no programming or conditioning to do the right thing.

  • 07.17.2004 4:56 AM PDT
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BobBQ, ever seen Bladerunner or read "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep"?
It's quite possible they are implanted memories ;-)

How do you create a perfect soldier, make him think he needs to fight. Make him hate.

  • 07.17.2004 6:13 AM PDT
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Very interesting. Those who have read Isaac Asimov's I, Robot, or more probably, watched the movie equivalent (I'm seeing it on Monday!), know that there are three Laws of Robotics:

1. A robot must not harm a human in anyway.

2. A robot must always obey humans, unless this conflicts with the first law.

3. A robot must not harm itself, unless this conflicts with the first or second law.

Thses laws may apply to MC (being trained/ brainwashed), and SO (being preprogramed). If our characters can't harm humans, then they must logically protect them. They must obey humans, which tell them to fight for the human race. They must not harm themselves, meaning they must fight to survive.

Just ideas for you!

  • 07.17.2004 8:46 PM PDT

[color=white]Cyghost has a valid point, but anyone who's read the four Robot novels by Asimov (The Naked Sun, The Caves of Steel, The Robots of Dawn, and Robots and Empire--all great science fistion murder mysteries) knows that the three laws can be circumvented with properly implemented logic.
Whether the film "I, Robot" will use this idea or not, I may never know. It's going to have to get rave reviews for me to see it.
Read the books, they're brain food.[/color]

  • 07.17.2004 9:56 PM PDT