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Subject: Novel Inconsistencies Concerning Weapons Yield Calcs
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sterilization=not good ;) Wow, I havent been on for a couple of days, but Im gonna book mark this post. Persoanlly, I love this stuff (and have been very interested about the MJOLNIR armour as well as the Covie plasma). Unfortunatly, I have not taken any physics courses yet (only goin into grade 11), but I kinda understand the stuff your sayin. Point is, this post fascinated me, and Im really looking forward to further posts. Oh yea, your point about the plasma rifle/pistol makes perfect sense. Ever noticed how the marines can get nailed about 4 times in the face before they drop? If the weapons can barely boil water, it fits.

  • 07.12.2004 8:34 AM PDT
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Posted by: johnconstantine

"Point four-tenths the speed of light?" This makes no sense at all. I've tried emailing HBO so that this could be verified as an inconsistency but to no avail...

.4 =point four tenths

  • 07.12.2004 8:36 AM PDT
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Posted by: The MasterChief8
imagine how big the EM pulse would be from it?!

maybe they can use it against another covie armada in low earth orbit and take out there fleet. it maybe further out into space as not to fry all the electronics on Earth, and also the super-macs.

The thermal radiation blast radius (would be roughly 57,000km. The fireball radius (ground contact burst) would be 2772km and would last roughly 50,000 seconds!! That's almost 14 hours!! Dear lord, what a bomb!

  • 07.12.2004 8:38 AM PDT
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Pez, his point was that "point four tenths" is impossible. It's either "point four" the speed of light or "four tenths" the speed of light. You don't combine them.

  • 07.12.2004 8:46 AM PDT
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Posted by: Draerden
Pez, his point was that "point four tenths" is impossible. It's either "point four" the speed of light or "four tenths" the speed of light. You don't combine them.
Just trying to come up with something to help the books out.

  • 07.12.2004 8:51 AM PDT
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*grins* That doesn't help the books out, you're just pointing out that they make no sense.

Seriously, the books aren't supposed to make sense scientifically.

Take First Strike for instance. When Polaski was taking the dropship down the planet had been heavily glassed already. She flew down through fairly clear skies, picked up some survivors, calmly slipped around and zipped down the hole made by the Covenant starship.

--Now, stop and think about that a moment.

Since Halsey could somehow breathe when the Covenant started to come down the gravity lift then the atmosphere hadn't been entirely "boiled away". Yet... that conflicts with what we know of glassing.

If they had glassed much of the planet, filled the atmosphere with plasma, wouldn't that have an effect meteorologically? What about the greenhouse effect? Where were the storms? The thunder, lightning and electrical effects of the energized atmosphere? Shouldn't Polaski have had some trouble bringing the dropship down to the surface?

Nylund is completely at odds with himself.

  • 07.12.2004 9:10 AM PDT
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ummmm just a couple of words:
fiction!!!!!!
for fun?

  • 07.12.2004 9:25 AM PDT
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These quotes might answer your questions (or might not...), Draerden:

“The Master Chief saw the Covenant fleet gathered around planet Reach. They swarmed and circled like sharks. The first of their plasma bombardments launched toward the surface. Clouds in the fires path boiled away.” - FoR 331

“The cruisers fired salvos of plasma that burned the sky.” - FS 32

“Before I jumped to slipspace, I witnessed the poles destroyed, and approximately two thirds of the planets surface was on fire.” - FS 102

“As I indicated, they started at the poles, but took in only a few ships. They were spread thin along the equatorial latitudes, and no additional ships were inbound. In fact, a large number of Covenant ships abandoned the system, in pursuit of the Pillar of Autumn.” - FS 105

“Fred watched as the plasma impacted upon the horizon and the sky turned white, then faded to black as millions of tons of ash and debris blotted out the sun.” - FS 32

“Overhead, tangerine borealis pulsed from the north. Sheets of silver crackled across the sky, and the black clouds boiled, lit by the raging fires beneath them. They piled into thunderheads and spat lightning.” - FS 109

“He’d seen this before. They all had. When the Covenant conquered a human world they fired their main plasma batteries at the planet - fired until it’s oceans boiled and nothing was left but a globe of broken glass.” - FS 32

“When the Covenant destroys a planet, they typically move their large warships closer and blanket the world with a series of crisscrossing orbits to ensure that every square millimeter of the surface is covered with plasma bombardments.” - FS 105

“Covenant plasma bombardment had always proceeded in an orderly crisscrossing pattern across a planet until every square centimeter of the surface was glass and cinder.” - FS 109

“Looks like they missed a spot,” the Sergeant said.
“The Covenant don’t ‘miss’ anything when they glass a planet,” the Master Chief replied. “We’ve seen them do it a thousand times.” - FS 155

Didn't mean to go overboard with the quotes...

Nylund mentions the destruction of Reach and its effects on the atmosphere. He also makes it a point to mention that Reach was a rush job and was nothing like the Covenants usual glassing.

Still, with 3/4 of the world burning, I think Halsey and Admiral Whitcomb should've had a hard time breathing or breathing at all.

  • 07.12.2004 9:30 AM PDT
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Posted by: Draerden
Seriously, the books aren't supposed to make sense scientifically.

I disagree with that. Nylund has an MA in chemical physics as well as a BA in physics(I think I even heard that he was going for his Doctorate)...he really shouldn't make that many mistakes when it comes to physics.

You can tell the difference between The Fall of Reach and First Strike. There are alot more typos and mistakes in TFoR than there are in FS. I think in FS, he got more of the physics right. He did even state, in an interview that he had alot more time writing FS.

  • 07.12.2004 9:36 AM PDT
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Posted by: johnconstantine
Nylund mentions the destruction of Reach and its effects on the atmosphere. He also makes it a point to mention that Reach was a rush job and was nothing like the Covenant's usual glassing.

Still, with 3/4 of the world burning, I think Halsey and Admiral Whitcomb should've had a hard time breathing or breathing at all.


My point was that the effects on the atmosphere dissappeared the very moment Polaski brought the Dropship down towards the planet. Your quotations only support my position. You show just how bad it "should" have been when the dropship came down.

There was no buffeting of the dropship, no peals of thunder as they exited the dropship, no electromagnetic interference on their communications. They can breathe perfectly normally despite the rarification of the air and the particulate ash. If 3/4 of your air was burning you'd be dying. Any fireman would tell you that.

That was just on the planet's surface. In space he continually "Flash freezes" everyone who comes into contact with a vaccum. Anyone with any knowledge of physics knows that the vaccum is the perfect insulator. There is no such thing as a "flash freeze".

  • 07.12.2004 10:01 AM PDT
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Here's another loose, hypothetical calculation:

Let's say, hypothetically, Archer missiles weigh 1000kg (basically the same weight as MC in his armor) which isn't too far fetched. If a ship were to accelerate to a velocity of .25c and launch the missiles, an Archer would have a KE yield of 700 megatons. A volley of 180 would have a KE yield of 126 gigatons - that's not even including the energy of the explosion.

Of course, this is all hypothetical. I'm just thinking out loud...so nobody freak out on me and call my BS, ok? ; )

  • 07.12.2004 10:07 AM PDT
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Posted by: Draerden
Posted by: johnconstantine
Nylund mentions the destruction of Reach and its effects on the atmosphere. He also makes it a point to mention that Reach was a rush job and was nothing like the Covenant's usual glassing.

Still, with 3/4 of the world burning, I think Halsey and Admiral Whitcomb should've had a hard time breathing or breathing at all.


My point was that the effects on the atmosphere dissappeared the very moment Polaski brought the Dropship down towards the planet. Your quotations only support my position. You show just how bad it "should" have been when the dropship came down.

There was no buffeting of the dropship, no peals of thunder as they exited the dropship, no electromagnetic interference on their communications. They can breathe perfectly normally despite the rarification of the air and the particulate ash. If 3/4 of your air was burning you'd be dying. Any fireman would tell you that.

Ah! I see what you're saying.

Just to add to that, they shouldn't have even been able to have seen the surface of Reach at all from the Ascendant Justice either.

  • 07.12.2004 10:11 AM PDT
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So what your saying is the plasma should boil the atmosphere quicker and the mac guns shoot at a non-existant speed, and u proved all of this with math. Nice.

  • 07.12.2004 10:14 AM PDT
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Posted by: SPARTIAN
So what your saying is the plasma should boil the atmosphere quicker and the mac guns shoot at a non-existant speed, and u proved all of this with math. Nice.

Math AND physics ; )

By the way, do you have a point?...or are you worried that I've wasted my time. If you're worried, don't worry...I'll be alright. I'm a survivor.

*raises fist in the air*

  • 07.12.2004 10:24 AM PDT
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While everyone is in a math/physics mood, I have two questions:

1) How do the Super MAC guns handle the recoil of launching such large projectiles at relativistic speeds? Shouldn't firing one of those rounds launch the whole cannon backwards at the planet it's defending?

2) Why is there EMP in space? I was under the impression that EMP stemmed from Compton effects between high energy photons and electrons belonging to the atoms of some kind of medium (such as air, or methane or just about any kind of matter). Unless the cloud of condensed Titanium-A debris was extremely dense, there shouldn't be a pulse at all in space (none beyond direct photoelectric effects anyway)

[Edited on 7/12/2004 10:53:42 AM]

  • 07.12.2004 10:47 AM PDT
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that might be true

  • 07.12.2004 10:50 AM PDT
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The Super MACs are built into massive asteroids. If massive enough the force of firing might not have a significant immediate effect. Then the UNSC would work then work on restoring it's orbit at leisure once the battle was done. If, of course, the battle wasn't won then nothing else mattered.

There are many ways to make an EMP, Compton's effect is but one of them and applies only to nuclear bombs.

As for nuclear explosions in space... no one is quite sure what exactly will happen since there's never been one. There are many theories. In a nuclear explosion much of the energy is translated into slamming wall of atmosphere. With no atmosphere, where does this energy go? Does this kinetic energy merely become transferred to the bomb fragments? Does it instead become translated into another form of energy?

  • 07.12.2004 11:16 AM PDT
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If plasma is so hot why doesn't it ,elt marines instantly? because it's fiction. Hence make believe.

  • 07.12.2004 11:42 AM PDT
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Posted by: Fnord
While everyone is in a math/physics mood, I have two questions:

1) How do the Super MAC guns handle the recoil of launching such large projectiles at relativistic speeds? Shouldn't firing one of those rounds launch the whole cannon backwards at the planet it's defending?

The MACs probably work like railguns which tranfer some of its energy to the rails that run along its length. I'm not exactly sure how much of its relative energy is transferred to the rails though I know this lessens the backwards recoil. I'll have to google 'railguns' to see for sure. The last time I heard, NASA was actually looking into using railguns to launch ships/satellites...of course NASA 'looks into' just about everything.

Also, the SMAC guns' magnetic coil is bigger than UNSC cruisers which are the biggest UNSC vessels and at the least over 3 times the tonnage of the Pillar of Autumn.

[Edited on 7/12/2004 11:47:56 AM]

  • 07.12.2004 11:47 AM PDT
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Posted by: noteliteornewb
If plasma is so hot why doesn't it ,elt marines instantly? because it's fiction. Hence make believe.

It does melt marines:

The blast had knocked Harland and his team into the mud. They ran to where they had left the Lieutenant - found fused glassy mud, a crater, and a few burning corpses and bits of carbonized skeleton. - FoR pg 166

Of course, if you're thinking of the game, you could also say that the trees on Halo are indestructable.

  • 07.12.2004 11:51 AM PDT
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Just because the few grams of plasma is superheated doesn't mean that those few grams have enough energy to melt/vapourize a person. I can't get into the math without knowing what sort of plasma it is, but even if it was tens of thousands of degrees it might only raise a humans' temperature by a few degrees.

I suppose the cannon would be fine if it was in the tens of billions of tons range, which it seems to be. I wonder through... how do they keep the cannon itself from pulverizing the rock of the asteroid it's built into as it dissipates the recoil? Without some sophisticated structural work inside the asteroid itself, wouldn't the recoil action of the magnetic coil (lessened by the effect of the rails, but still tremendous) shatter and tear through the material behind it rather than transfer and smoothly accelerate the whole rock?

[Edited on 7/12/2004 12:10:54 PM]

  • 07.12.2004 11:51 AM PDT
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Posted by: johnconstantine
Posted by: noteliteornewb
If plasma is so hot why doesn't it ,elt marines instantly? because it's fiction. Hence make believe.

It does melt marines:

The blast had knocked Harland and his team into the mud. They ran to where they had left the Lieutenant - found fused glassy mud, a crater, and a few burning corpses and bits of carbonized skeleton. - FoR pg 166

Of course, if you're thinking of the game, you could also say that the trees on Halo are indestructable.



Exactly my point. It's a game and it's also science fiction. I guess at my level of intelligents that talking about joules and how they don't work for a videogame is just a little overboard. I'm not mad or hating, it's just funny to me.

  • 07.12.2004 11:58 AM PDT
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Posted by: noteliteornewb
Posted by: johnconstantine
Posted by: noteliteornewb
If plasma is so hot why doesn't it ,elt marines instantly? because it's fiction. Hence make believe.

It does melt marines:

The blast had knocked Harland and his team into the mud. They ran to where they had left the Lieutenant - found fused glassy mud, a crater, and a few burning corpses and bits of carbonized skeleton. - FoR pg 166

Of course, if you're thinking of the game, you could also say that the trees on Halo are indestructable.



Exactly my point. It's a game and it's also science fiction. I guess at my level of intelligents that talking about joules and how they don't work for a videogame is just a little overboard. I'm not mad or hating, it's just funny to me.

You know, I've noticed that there are three kinds of Halo fans here at bungie.net:
- there are those that are insanely rabid fans for the game
- there are those that are freakishly psychotic about the story
- and then there are those who are fanatic about both

It sounds like you might belong more towards the first category while I belong to the third category.

*shrugs*

Have you seen some of the fanatic Star Wars websites? I've seen Star Wars websites that analyze every single frame of the movie - no kidding.

  • 07.12.2004 12:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: noteliteornewb
If plasma is so hot why doesn't it ,elt marines instantly? because it's fiction. Hence make believe.

Why don't Plasma Welding torches vaporize whatever they're welding or burn the person holding it to a crisp?

It's because thermodynamics says it doesn't work that way.

Though, I will admit that Nylund exagerates the effects of Covenant weaponry.

  • 07.12.2004 12:06 PM PDT
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I agree with you Jon. That's what I meant about not hating. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I'm not eduactaed enough in physics to even argue the points.

[Edited on 7/12/2004 12:07:54 PM]

  • 07.12.2004 12:07 PM PDT

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