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Subject: Why Humans Still Use Bullets..........................................
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I cant say I'm an expert on nano-technology, and seeing that i dont know much about it means inately that it isn't "buzzworthy" (to sound MTVish). If it isn't gaining "buzz" (LOTS of new devices, LOTS of more companies, LOTS of more investors) then it's not advancing as fast as you think...

Although the speculation of what nanotechnology COULD do can blow our minds, that same speculation can make everything about it seem so futuristic that it's advancing at the speed of light. We made the same mistake with vehicles and transportation (Moon houses and space ships in 2000).

  • 07.12.2004 4:06 PM PDT
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Posted by: Mulletman262
i say we won't use bullets in 500 years. Quite simply because lasers are already in dev.


lasers dont do that much damage...although accurate they can't be used to effectively take out mass troops or an entire army.

  • 07.12.2004 4:08 PM PDT
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While you make a compelling point, you can't be limited to a projectile-centric view. I have a few thoughts about the reasons why might not be using bullets in a half millenia or so:

Inefficiency - the current methods of launching a bullet (gunpowder) are wasteful. Also, the very idea of bullets origionates from, for lack of a better term, a spray and pray method, like a cannon firing grapeshot. While our aim has gotten much better due to rifling, a non-tracking weapon is still inefficient, especially over distance. Hence the developement of tracking weapons, such as missles, which I would also postulate would not be grouped in a similar catagory to bullets.

I also think that different types of weapony altogether would be the likely weapon of the future. What of chemical/biological warfare? And new materials are "discovered" all the time... And I think that some sort of energy source developement, to either power or actually be the weapon, is very likely within 500 years, with the impending depletion of our fossil fuels leading us to continue to explore these options.

I'd like to see improvements made to the microwave guns that they have/are developing for riot control (it heats your skin, feels like a reallllllly bad sumburn), and turn it into a -blam!- death ray. A heat ray gun would definately be my HALO2 weapon of choice.

  • 07.12.2004 4:08 PM PDT
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Well, do you know anything about quantum computing technology at all? If so, you know that it will also help advance many things.

  • 07.12.2004 4:08 PM PDT
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lasers dont do that much damage...although accurate they can't be used to effectively take out mass troops or an entire army.[/quote]


LASER's only don't do massive amounts of damage due to energy constraints...and I feel comfortable postulating that we will make large energy source progress in the future

  • 07.12.2004 4:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: OU812
I cant say I'm an expert on nano-technology, and seeing that i dont know much about it means inately that it isn't "buzzworthy" (to sound MTVish). If it isn't gaining "buzz" (LOTS of new devices, LOTS of more companies, LOTS of more investors) then it's not advancing as fast as you think...
.


It's an emerging field at the moment, but that's not stopping it from rolling in the investments. Billions are being poured into it by large companies and government (DARPA has been particularily aggressive)and financial organizations are expecting that to rise sharply as industrial products based on elementary nanotechnology begin to hit the market (ie, things made from nano-structured crystal and the like). The 'buzz' isn't at the consumer level yet, it's in the scientific, military and industrial levels.

  • 07.12.2004 4:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: Choirboysquirrel
While you make a compelling point, you can't be limited to a projectile-centric view. I have a few thoughts about the reasons why might not be using bullets in a half millenia or so:

Inefficiency - the current methods of launching a bullet (gunpowder) are wasteful. Also, the very idea of bullets origionates from, for lack of a better term, a spray and pray method, like a cannon firing grapeshot. While our aim has gotten much better due to rifling, a non-tracking weapon is still inefficient, especially over distance. Hence the developement of tracking weapons, such as missles, which I would also postulate would not be grouped in a similar catagory to bullets.

I also think that different types of weapony altogether would be the likely weapon of the future. What of chemical/biological warfare? And new materials are "discovered" all the time... And I think that some sort of energy source developement, to either power or actually be the weapon, is very likely within 500 years, with the impending depletion of our fossil fuels leading us to continue to explore these options.

I'd like to see improvements made to the microwave guns that they have/are developing for riot control (it heats your skin, feels like a reallllllly bad sumburn), and turn it into a -blam!- death ray. A heat ray gun would definately be my HALO2 weapon of choice.


A new energy source...first of all, we are having trouble switching away from oil even when our #1 enemies around the world have us by the balls because of that very substance. secondly, how would that energy source power a mass-producable, cheap, efficient weapon? It wont.

As for new weapons, how would a microwave gun be able to be used in war? Defeating an army would be damn near impossible!!! I can see 1 or 2 rioters but millions of covenant? I dont think so.

And New Materials... For the most part, our material discovering days are over. Of course there are always composites yet to be found but they can only advance technological bounds so far. And not quick enough to have energy weapons in 500 years.

  • 07.12.2004 4:14 PM PDT
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yeah, lasers may be in development, but it doesn't make them cost effective, think how many hours you'd have to work to equip a military force with lasers that are acctually effective in a combat field.



Hmm seems i missed the second page *slaps forehead*
to what Choirboysquirrel said about bullets not being the future because they're inaccurate, inaccuracy doesn't mean that they can develop something better, it's just a reason to, what the thread poster (sorry, didn't catch the name) is saying here is that technology in the area of bullets won't advance very fast, which seems logical unless a new facter comes into play, which at the moment doesn't seem like it's happening, which is good, the last thing we need is more ways to destroy ourselves

[Edited on 7/12/2004 4:23:01 PM]

  • 07.12.2004 4:14 PM PDT
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LASER's only don't do massive amounts of damage due to energy constraints...and I feel comfortable postulating that we will make large energy source progress in the future
..............ok, but how do we fit that source into a rifle?

[Edited on 7/12/2004 4:15:52 PM]

  • 07.12.2004 4:15 PM PDT
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If the MC can have a FUSION pack on his back, he can spare a few gigawatts for a laser

  • 07.12.2004 4:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: Fnord
It's an emerging field at the moment, but that's not stopping it from rolling in the investments. Billions are being poured into it by large companies and government (DARPA has been particularily aggressive)and financial organizations are expecting that to rise sharply as industrial products based on elementary nanotechnology begin to hit the market (ie, things made from nano-structured crystal and the like). The 'buzz' isn't at the consumer level yet, it's in the scientific, military and industrial levels.


i know its not there yet, but how long will it be before "nano-products" hit the market AND (here's the key part because if it's missing then the previously mentioned doesn't matter) COMPETE with non-"nano-products". Of course it seems obvious that a nano-product will easily oust a non-nano-product in terms of efficiency, but will it be as cost effective? will it be easily produced? is it marketable? these are all obstacles for nano-technology to beat. but how long will it take for it to do that? how long will it be before we can find a nano weapon that beats the tried and true projectile weapon on all of these levels?

  • 07.12.2004 4:22 PM PDT
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Posted by: Choirboysquirrel
If the MC can have a FUSION pack on his back, he can spare a few gigawatts for a laser


The military would not make a weapon designed for only 4 soldiers (spartans) and issue that to every infantryman.

  • 07.12.2004 4:23 PM PDT
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Well they designed the MJOLNIR armour just for the spartans, why not some special weapon as opposed to standard issue infantry weapons?

[Edited on 7/12/2004 4:26:30 PM]

  • 07.12.2004 4:24 PM PDT
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but the whole point is that the power source is available!
(at least in Bungie's world, which is what we are debating)

  • 07.12.2004 4:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: Choirboysquirrel
but the whole point is that the power source is available!
(at least in Bungie's world, which is what we are debating)


i know, but can that power source be put in a rifle to power bullets??? would it be cost effective??? no.

  • 07.12.2004 4:28 PM PDT
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I'm pretty sure I am not quite right but notice how the Covenant guns are better at killing covenant and human weapons are extremely effective against humans. I think there is some truth to the fact that the different races use killing methos that are PROVEN effective to the closest enemy they know themselves! Humans have advanced their technology according to the necessities they create and there aren't many things that can be effective against a bullet, for humans at least. I'd say the humans weren't necessarily prepared to fight against a foe that can carry personal overshields. The covenant just happen to be more advanced and since their guns are effective against shields it will work just as well for humans who don't carry such. Whatever. You are welcome to correct me.

  • 07.12.2004 4:29 PM PDT
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the power wouldn't be for shooting bullets, and if we could make a backpack sized nuclear reactor, then i think we could mass produce them. Think about the enormous amount of capital dumped into non-reuseable bullets. If you used that money for these "nuclear lasers", you could produce a bunch in 2500.

  • 07.12.2004 4:36 PM PDT
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Posted by: OU812
Posted by: Choirboysquirrel
but the whole point is that the power source is available!
(at least in Bungie's world, which is what we are debating)


i know, but can that power source be put in a rifle to power bullets??? would it be cost effective??? no.


But in this case it doesn't have to be cost effective, the MJOLNIR armour probably isn't cost effective, i'm sure as hell that the fusion reactor in his suit isn't cost effective, but the spartans are so special that they get the top of the line gear.

  • 07.12.2004 4:37 PM PDT
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Posted by: Scifix
I'm pretty sure I am not quite right but notice how the Covenant guns are better at killing covenant and human weapons are extremely effective against humans. I think there is some truth to the fact that the different races use killing methos that are PROVEN effective to the closest enemy they know themselves! Humans have advanced their technology according to the necessities they create and there aren't many things that can be effective against a bullet, for humans at least. I'd say the humans weren't necessarily prepared to fight against a foe that can carry personal overshields. The covenant just happen to be more advanced and since their guns are effective against shields it will work just as well for humans who don't carry such. Whatever. You are welcome to correct me.


You are correct, my son...

  • 07.12.2004 4:44 PM PDT
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Okay then I have to point out a few things.

First of with this nanotechnology. I remember watching a thing about it on the History channel saying that we can then create artifical muscle with it. Allowing soldiers to leap 30 feet in the air and being able to automatically heal wounds. Well what if in the Halo universe things went wrong. TERRIBLY WRONG.

Here is an example. A soldier leaps up 30 feet. Good for him. Now he has to come down. Well his fall is not controlled and when he lands the suit of nanotech survives, but he is badly injured/ killed. For the sake of argument let's say he lived. Well he broke his legs and the armor immediately does what it is supposed to do. It begins to heal the wounds, but the "trigger" that is supposed to stop the healing process does not go through. So it keeps replicating skin, bone, and muscle. It does this to the point that the man dies. Then there could have been other instances like this and the problem is wide spread. Scientists try to fix it, but they can't and the project is cast out.

Now for my next point. Lasers. We honestly don't need them against our current enemies on Earth. No one is making some super bullet proof armor that prevents any ballistics from getting through. Also think of the cost for this between now and 2552. No matter how you slice it an infantry based laser/ plasma weapon will be expensive as hell and the ability to mass produce is at near zero. Basically it comes down to this. The rifle has very few to no problems with it. Because of this an old motto comes into play, " If it ain't broke, don't fix it. "

Also there was a statement earlier that our natural resources are running out. Well little science tip. As of, I think a month of two ago, they found out at old oil reservoirs where they thought they pumped them dry the oil is actually being reproduced by the Earth. Meaning the creation of our fossil fuels is an ongoing process and the likelyhood of depletion is very low. However mining of other planetary bodeis would be necessary for the type of advancement we are talking about in the universe of Halo.

Well that is all I can say as of right now. Hope it opened a few new twists to the debate.

[Edited on 7/12/2004 4:53:49 PM]

  • 07.12.2004 4:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: Aker
Posted by: OU812
Posted by: Choirboysquirrel
but the whole point is that the power source is available!
(at least in Bungie's world, which is what we are debating)


i know, but can that power source be put in a rifle to power bullets??? would it be cost effective??? no.


But in this case it doesn't have to be cost effective, the MJOLNIR armour probably isn't cost effective, i'm sure as hell that the fusion reactor in his suit isn't cost effective, but the spartans are so special that they get the top of the line gear.


Yes that is correct. The Spartans are special, hence the cool gear.

  • 07.12.2004 4:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: OU812

i know its not there yet, but how long will it be before "nano-products" hit the market AND (here's the key part because if it's missing then the previously mentioned doesn't matter) COMPETE with non-"nano-products". Of course it seems obvious that a nano-product will easily oust a non-nano-product in terms of efficiency, but will it be as cost effective? will it be easily produced? is it marketable? these are all obstacles for nano-technology to beat. but how long will it take for it to do that? how long will it be before we can find a nano weapon that beats the tried and true projectile weapon on all of these levels?


The points you raise are all valid, those are significant obstacles to overcome. Nanotechnology will initially be too expensive (thanks to R&D costs, inefficencies in the manufacturing and low yields) for the mass consumer but will quickly find homes in the hands of militaries and complex industries who have enough use for the superior and unique capablities of a nanotechnology product to justfy the added costs. (Militaries will want the unique, extremely durable armour and advanced computers, industries will use the advanced computer technology etc.). Eventually the lessons learned in manufacturing for those demanding customers and make sufficient refinements to lower the costs enough for general use. This will take quite some time, but certainly less than five hundred years, even if current progress is slowed by a factor of twenty. (I've read papers on this, but real disscusion is beyond my level of understanding of the subject, a better understanding of this subject would be gleamed from reading the material for yourself... a good place to start would be a book called "Nanosystems")

Going back to the rifle specifically, it's marketablity depends on the enviroment. Nanotechnology could create a superior projectile weapon as easily as it could create a directed energy weapon, it's just a question of what it needs to penetrate. If the potential targets are using armour derived from nanotechnology then a directed energy weapon would allow tremendous power to be delievered precisely on target with no recoil or mechanical dispersion, allowing significant energy to be directed on a small area and the armour to be penetrated. If the enemy doesn't wear such armour, you're better off with an advanced projectile cannon. (an electrothermal gun with guided shells would be good).

[Edited on 7/12/2004 7:59:59 PM]

  • 07.12.2004 7:38 PM PDT
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[quote]Posted by: Hikaru 119

Also there was a statement earlier that our natural resources are running out. Well little science tip. As of, I think a month of two ago, they found out at old oil reservoirs where they thought they pumped them dry the oil is actually being reproduced by the Earth. Meaning the creation of our fossil fuels is an ongoing process and the likelyhood of depletion is very low. However mining of other planetary bodeis would be necessary for the type of advancement we are talking about in the universe of Halo.

quote]


Yes, unfortunately this process takes millions of years. Hows that for a tip.

  • 07.12.2004 8:11 PM PDT
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This is silly. People are talking about stuff 500 years ago as if it were 50 years from now.
500 years ago we didn't even have steel yet.

Expect a similar technology gap.

Now, without going into computers and nanotechnology:

Scientists today have created a stable plasma force field, only inches across and with large equipment but they've done it. We now have electronic guns that use no "hammer and pin" and homing bullets. We have flying cars. The US government has their first powered frame operational and a mach 10 bomber... yes... I did say mach 10. We have a suit of armour that can withstand small arms fire and can take a hit from a truck moving at nearly 100 mph without the person wearing it feeling a thing and the world's first full scale Fusion reactor is about to go online in a few years.

That's just to start and those exist just today...

  • 07.12.2004 8:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: Choirboysquirrel
Yes, unfortunately this process takes millions of years. Hows that for a tip.


Note that scientists in the 1960's were absolutely certain the world's oil reserves would run out in the mid-1980's I'm not worried.

New technology breeds new resources, and the ability to use them more efficiently. There was a scientist afterwards who examined this and stipulated the following loose equation: "Resources = Raw materials * Technology Level"

  • 07.12.2004 8:16 PM PDT

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