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Subject: Are the moderators more tolerant of the misbehavior of highly ranke...

There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.

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What's also fun, Achronos, is watching the "social experiment" you've refered too.

  • 04.03.2009 12:46 PM PDT

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

Circular post is circular.

Swish.

[Edited on 04.03.2009 1:31 PM PDT]

  • 04.03.2009 1:04 PM PDT

Check out the group, Planet Reach and talk about Bungie's next game without the annoyance of the public forum. Oh and it's nice there too.

You thought you had lag, it took Jesus 3 days to re-spawn.

Posted by: Old Papa Rich
Isn't the elitism argument a little over-blown? I am speaking only from my limited experience, but I have yet to see anyone with a title act differently because of it. The complaiunts of elitism seem more like the come from the people withyout titles. I guess that's where they would come from. But, since your trust rating is entirely, if amiguously, in your own control, There is really no cause for cries of "special treatment."


I agree. People who constantly cry elitism come off as pansies who like to whine because they feel certain people get treated different, or better than them. They just can't stand someone getting treated different, or better, because it makes them feel inferior. So they cry elitism to make themselves feel better.

There's cliques everywhere. People need to get over it and live with it.

  • 04.03.2009 2:03 PM PDT

Call me Wolfie | My anti-drug
New Flood for life <3

We’re looking back laughing because they called us crazy, but we took that chance on that feeling, living for the moment, we were spinning in. Maybe we were a lot of things, but we weren't crazy.

The Mythic/Legendary/Heroic/Member idea was pretty bad, in my opinion. All of the threads I see in here now related to one's "status."

No one cares about anything else now :/ At least that's how I feel.

  • 04.03.2009 2:09 PM PDT

For Carnage Apply Within - Fatum Iustum Stultorum

"Do not mistake your rank and number for superiority. The oldest child may learn from the youngest."

Posted by: x Foman123 x
I understand where you're coming from, but hopefully if I can correct some of your line of thinking, your outrage will be a little bit lessened.


First off, thanks for taking the time to respond with a thoughtful post. Secondly, apologies if I came off as such, but I was not "outraged" when I posted my above response. If anything, I conveyed my strong feelings on the topic in a way that could, I see now, be identified as blind anger or outrage.

I am not saying that users with just a "Member" title are untrustworthy. Hell, some of the users I trust the most here have a "Member" title. What I'm saying, however, is that a member who is Legendary or Mythic has a proven track record of relatively active forum posting combined with posting within the rules. In general (and with some admitted exceptions), these members know the rules and try to abide by them. If they make a misstep and I tell them about it, they are likely to correct it.

I have to disagree that "most" users would "act like Mythics given the chance." This is not cynicism -- I know that many members hope to achieve a higher title. I also know that a huge majority of the users here are good-natured, nice people who just want to come and talk about their favorite video game or gaming community for awhile. But long experience and observation have taught that most members post by trial-and-error. In other words, they post what and where they feel like it, and if they get warned/banned for it, THAT is when they know not to do it again. In some cases, they post what and where they feel like it and if they get banned for it they simply wait out the ban and then do it again. This description fits the vast, vast majority of users of these forums, and I would wager that not only have these users not read the forum rules, ToU, and CoC, they do not even know where to find them.


In that case, would you extend the same courtesies to the Members you know and trust as you would to Mythics? If so, it is clearly a matter of knowing a user more so than simply recognizing any status. Continuing this line of thought, if this is the case, why not try to get to know more average users? I realize such a goal is pretty much impossible given the sheer number of users on B.net (with more joining every day), so I won't be as naive as to expect you and the rest of the site administrators and moderators to do so. What I mean to say by such a statement, however, is that trust is developed through knowledge of an individual more so than a specific title.

I agree with you that the manner in which someone posts is indicative of their character, especially in light of an existent forum history of poor or sub-standard behavior, but I feel the users who engage in such activity can be easily identified and quickly dealt with. As I'm sure you inferred from my prior post, I feel that any punishment meted out should be done on equal terms and be applicable to every member who violates a given rule. This way it is ensured the rules are never broken, regardless of status or whether or not more experienced users know they can get away with a slight infraction. After all, the rules are not to be broken or bent, correct? If so, why allow some members to bend them a little while prohibiting others from doing so?

I don't wish a stricter enforcement of the rules and ToU upon one user demographic or another, I simply think that they need to be enforced equally and fairly throughout, regardless of status. Why reward some users for following the rules with the ability to ignore them sometimes?

I know that you're optimistic about the nature of most users of these forums, but please believe me when I say that this is the reality. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, either -- the vast majority of users have no stake in the forums and simply want to ask a quick question, have a one-off discussion about Halo or Matchmaking, or get caught up on the latest news. Nothing wrong with that, and for a user like that, there's really no reason to read the rules or post in any manner other than trial-and-error. But this kind of posting on a mass scale by thousands of users is not good for the forums as a whole, which is why the admins and moderators generally do what they can to discourage such trial-and-error posting.

Optimistic? You know what, you are right. I agree that I feel most people are good natured and don't do things out of spite. Maybe that is a wrong belief to hold in an environment as anonymous as the internet, but the atmosphere engendered by the B.net community (at least in my opinion based off of my experience here) typically disdains rude and spiteful behavior. Such posters are called out, even if the the troll is fed in the process, and the rules are enforced.

As for the matter of "trial-and-error" posting as you call it, if the question is innocent enough, why does it matter what you do to the poster? If many are one-time posters, does banning them actually teach them anything? I'd guess that it doesn't. Having had their question answered, and seeing that they have been banned or blacklisted (if they even bothered to check back and see that they were), the one-off poster will never return. If they do somewhere down the line, what's to stop them from making another account and posting a question to a random forum once more? I agree that the punishments dolled out on B.net can serve as learning tools, but only for the users dedicated enough to stick around and suffer through them. If a user continues to engage in disruptive behavior further punishments will either correct the situation or remove them from the community.

I feel that one point that needs to be given some attention is the average age of the typical B.net user. I'd easily believe anyone who tells me the average user age trends towards 15-18 (and under) more so than one that trends towards 20+. Not to attack the younger age groups, especially since I have met, talked, and played games with several mature younger gamers, but it is my opinion that the younger a user is the more likely the incidence of rules violation. That is not to say that older users don't engage is foolish behavior, but the incidence of it is lessened the older a member. I realize that this is a point that would be hard to address in any meaningful sense, and certainly don't advocate age-gating the site or singling out someone simply because they seem "young". What I do feel needs to be done is that this point simply be addressed for whatever value it has and then considered when discussing rules, punishments, and member treatment.

Most Legendary and Mythic members, on the other hand, have generally learned the rules either by keen observation over several YEARS on these forums or by actually reading the rules themselves. Before they even hit the "submit" button, they usually have a very good idea whether their post is within the rules or not. They are not posting by trial-and-error. But even then, they can make mistakes. That is where a little leeway comes in.

I agree that great communities require a sense of respect and equality, but I don't think that this is inconsistent with that. Saying that a community has a "sense of equality" simply means that no discrimination occurs for arbitrary reasons. Here, it is no different. All members are treated equally based on their trust rating and history on the forums. There is no arbitrary discrimination, but there is different treatment for members who have proven that they are upstanding and active community members. It sounds absolutely insane to say that a member with 15 prior bans for posting off-topic should receive the same ban for posting off-topic yet again as a Mythic Member who has been here for five years and slips up and accidentally posts in the wrong forum.

I do not see how giving a bit of leeway to Legendary and Mythic members (or any member with a trust rating that indicates that they are both active and rule abiding) is either absurd or "favoritism" in the sense that you mean it.


I still fell that a good-natured, decent member who follows the rules, yet makes mistakes at the same frequency as a Mythic Member, should be treated no differently from a higher status member. Such a member may not be known to you, but for one posting out of what may have been a relatively long time on B.net, that user would face a stiff penalty all due to the fact that their title bar isn't blue or even light gray. I do agree with you that a user with a prior history of bans and bad behavior should be treated differently, but that difference in treatment stems not from member status but from their own proven history on the forums.

That all said, where do I feel the B.net community stands? For the most part, it is great and runs smoothly. I do believe that more tolerance, or equal tolerance, needs to be extended to all members. Still these are my opinions and others may think differently. Regardless, I do urge everyone here to think of each other in equal terms and for those in moderating or administrating roles to extend a degree of equality in all matters needing them. I'm glad to see that some believe that a community does exist here, and I for one want to see that community to continue to grow and do so in the right direction.

Am I wrong for wanting such?

  • 04.03.2009 2:23 PM PDT

Call me Wolfie | My anti-drug
New Flood for life <3

We’re looking back laughing because they called us crazy, but we took that chance on that feeling, living for the moment, we were spinning in. Maybe we were a lot of things, but we weren't crazy.

Holy crap.

  • 04.03.2009 2:25 PM PDT

Posted by: xianoa
how happy is a midget likely to be once you start melting cheese on them?


(O : o)=GTI=W====(o : O)

Posted by: A Celtic Tiger
I like the title bar system as it is. Unlike Xbox.com's Community User Level, which is largely post-count based, Bungie.net's system is based on activity, (not neccesarily post-count,) and a no-doubt very cleve algorithm that does not just works, it works best.

*Disagrees*
I disagree because when a user make ONE mistake they get all of their trust basically stripped from them.

  • 04.03.2009 2:26 PM PDT

Ach! Was ist los?

Show me a Fabled Mythic Exalted Legendary Member who posts meatspin or goatse - I guarantee you won't see him again.

  • 04.03.2009 2:33 PM PDT

Dianna Agron is the epitome of perfection.

Quinntology.

Posted by: BobBQ
Show me a Fabled Mythic Exalted Legendary Member who posts meatspin or goatse - I guarantee you won't see him again.


Well yeah, certain offenses are more bannable than others, but what if you saw a Mythic member derail a thread and spam, and then later on see a regular member derail a thread and continue to spam?

What I'm guessing is that the regular member will at least recieve a warning and the Mythic probably won't get anything.

[Edited on 04.03.2009 2:40 PM PDT]

  • 04.03.2009 2:40 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

The "figuring out" part I understand... but the current system fails that test, because the way it works is completely arbitrary, and you don't have enough data points to even come close to figuring out how it works in absolute terms. The process of trying to understand isn't fun, because there isn't any way you can understand without additional input.

Posted by: Old Papa Rich
It's not that stange. What's fun is trying to understand. So far I'm a failing.

  • 04.03.2009 3:13 PM PDT

Posted by: Achronos
The process of trying to understand isn't fun, because there isn't any way you can understand without additional input.


Input! Input! Need Moar Input!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbkbU32X5dI


On Topic:
What it comes down to in my mind is mutual respect. People with experience & consistent good behavior inherently earn a little respect. Not that it makes a person immune to getting whipped for bad behavior, but are allowed some leniency over minor infractions. Especially if said persons history doesn't show re-occurrences.

I may not be Mythic, but I've been around for awhile and am acquainted with a few people around here. Does that mean I expect to be given any quarter, heck no. I know darn well if I even dip my toe into the deep end I'll end up with cement shoes. It's no different than any of the forums that I have moderated in the past and will in the future. I have always given a bit of leniency to regular behaved members, but if they cross the line they get the same treatment anyone else would.

  • 04.03.2009 3:41 PM PDT

Freedom has two parts: potential and resolution; as metaphors have two parts : form and interpretation; of course, the two are intertwined. Metaphor lines the road to freedom, as symbols and words are the bricks and mortar of meaning. Freedom being the briocoleus, the mason.
***END MESSAGE***
***JUMP ACTIVATION INITIATION START***
***TRANSPORT WHEN READY***

Posted by: Pezz
It comes down to this - is removing this person beneficial to the community? If someone posts amazing threads 90% of the time, then trolls ....
That's all I would need sorry, even if they are mythic, if they're being humourous, then maybe I'd let em off the hook, but I don't think there should be room for trolls here.

  • 04.03.2009 3:45 PM PDT

There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.

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Posted by: Achronos
The "figuring out" part I understand... but the current system fails that test, because the way it works is completely arbitrary, and you don't have enough data points to even come close to figuring out how it works in absolute terms. The process of trying to understand isn't fun, because there isn't any way you can understand without additional input.
Telling someone they are beating their head against a wall doesn't always stop them. I'll try though.

  • 04.03.2009 4:07 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
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  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

I've been seeing Mythic Members and Legendary Members post either off-topic posts, or just total spam, and nothing has happened to them yet.

Then, when I see a Member or Heroic Member (including all the prefix titles too) post an off-topic post, they would get banned right away.

I think it's just a past history that basic "Members" having a better chance at getting banned than "Mythic/Legendary/Heroic Members" do from past-history. I'm not sure if that is true though...

  • 04.03.2009 4:13 PM PDT
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  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

I'v been banned before, once I think... ever since that very small ban I have not been able to achieve mythic... and it was ages ago... However... should I ever gain that blue title bar, I would certainly hope that I am not judged either way for it, if I post something stupid and against the rules, I should expect to get banned for it, just like any other member. (darn long sentence eh?) I don't expect to be treated better or given "passes" because of my title bar... like one thread I saw get nuked about a week ago... a noble legendary member with a equally stupid reply... I believe it was something along the lines of "wat" was one of only 3 people in the some 6 page long thread, not blacklisted. The other 2 people had decent replies which tried to put some value into the thread, so I could see why they got the pass on the nuke... but the Nobel legendary member should have been vaporized...

You hear me mods? I expect no special treatment, neither should anyone here with a color'd bar. If I do something stupid, please, make an example of me.

  • 04.03.2009 5:36 PM PDT

Campiagn Kill Count :31,745. And growing.

The Revisionaries- One of the greatest screenshot groups on B.net. With 250 members and growing.

Well, I can assure you Duardo isn't baised in the least.. there was a "Do/Did you pee in the shower?" Flood thread, and after it became a Hot Topic he banned everyone who posted in it, and there was a legendary member or two in there along with a Mythic member. This included me, being Heroic, along with a few others.

Why? Because he considered it spam. If that's what he considers spam, I have no idea what he calls half the crap in the Halo 3 forum.

Back on topic.. The majority of Mods are baised I think, and it's understandable. People who clearly know the rules can band them a little.. they've earned their rights. I'd be biased too if I had the priveledge.

  • 04.03.2009 5:46 PM PDT

July 15, 2008... The day the timer stood still.

Well, I was Mythic for a while, then the Flood consumed me. Now I'm just an ancient member. So no, Mythics don't get super-special treatment.

  • 04.03.2009 7:45 PM PDT

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"Ignorance is a plague."

Close, but the plague killed those infected with it, and the ignorant are still alive.
I wish ignorance was a plague.

There shouldn't be a bias, but everyone on these forums is human (I think)

  • 04.03.2009 8:57 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Fabled Mythic Member
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I think this is the longest thread i have ever created!

*does tom hanks impression*

I! Have Made Fire! I! I! I have made fire! Look what I have created!

  • 04.03.2009 9:30 PM PDT

Have an addicition? Join Gamers Anon



Posted by: urk
Then there are the people who poop in the mash potatoes. Those people get launched out on their asses.

Posted by: BobBQ
Show me a Fabled Mythic Exalted Legendary Member who posts meatspin or goatse - I guarantee you won't see him again.

Uh, I wouldn't expose anyone to the latter.

I have already posted, but I'll say one more thing on this. Most people who have been here for, lets say a year, are going to be seasoned to a point to which they will know right from wrong. No matter the title. The Moderators will have a rapport with them and everything should work out. For better or worse. Catch the drift?

  • 04.03.2009 9:37 PM PDT

Dead Mans Hand-Always Loaded.

I WAS SOCK

I have been banned 1 time, and I was a legendary member at the time. I posted something like, lol, or someother, w very short, useless response. Foman had no problem banning the entire thread :P... no matter the member status. He did manage to call it a gem, and add a link of an explosion vid on youtube, saying This thread nuked courtesy of Foman.
Though I was sad I got banned, I rather enjoyed the way he did it lol. But back on subject, member status saves you in no way.

  • 04.03.2009 11:43 PM PDT

I know the community is totally different. Leaps and bounds different. But, I used to mod for the boards for a pretty popular Counter-Strike server, as well as THE most popular Day of Defeat custom maps server (seems like another lifetime) and although you wouldn't know it from my attitude here I was quite the stickler for following the rules, and being as polite as possible, etc etc. And if I saw someone break any of our posted rules, they got smacked with a ban, no questions asked.
However, members I knew personally, or members who I know had been a part of the community longer, I was more willing to let things slide and just kinda look the other direction.
Like I said before, totally different community types but my reasoning behind my attitude was thus.. What good does it do to remove someone from the community who is such a big part of it? Other than the banned themselves, generally nobody cares if you remove someone with like 2 posts, both of which are spam. But someone with a proven track record and is a staple of the community, even if they do tend to bend or even break the rules, will be missed.
It's like when the most popular character on a TV show gets killed off or replaced because they got caught drunk driving, or giving -blam!- favors in restaurant bathrooms. You know they did something wrong, and they deserve to be punished but is the show any better off for it? Usually not, usually you just quit watching.
Huge unorganized wall of text is huge and unorganized. But those are my 2 cents, for what they're worth. About 1 cent I would assume.

  • 04.04.2009 12:00 AM PDT

Honestly, this must be a joke. Child, listen, stop trying to defend yourself because clearly you are incapable of it. The only idiot in this thread is yourself, and trust me, it is obvious. So, how about you do as I asked earlier and log off, mommy and daddy wouldn't want you staying up this late.
-- Direct Control, BAMF

It depends really, I would assume mythics could get away with something that borders spam and get slightly more tolerance to say...me because they are more likely to understand a warning. If the infraction was serious however I think they would get more severe punishment because they should know the rules by now, for say obvious trolling. I doubt the differences in treatment are significant however.

  • 04.04.2009 6:33 AM PDT

I remember when I used this space to put cool looking links to my chapters back in the day. I don't even know why I'm using it now. Why are you even reading this? You must be interested in me. Still reading?

Most Mythic and Legendary members have shown and proven that they are aware and can follow the rules. Though they are sometimes given more leeway, I'm sure the moderators and admins still keep in mind that some of them are border line to breaking rules and some can be flat out rude. Just follow the rules, if you think something you are doing is against those set rules, just don't do it.

  • 04.04.2009 7:59 AM PDT

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Visit us and check out our games at Sandswept.net!

~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

Posted by: Halo2Girl305
The Mythic/Legendary/Heroic/Member idea was pretty bad, in my opinion. All of the threads I see in here now related to one's "status."

No one cares about anything else now :/ At least that's how I feel.

Really? I'm not seeing all these threads.

  • 04.04.2009 8:01 AM PDT