- Placid Platypus
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- Exalted Legendary Member
For Carnage Apply Within - Fatum Iustum Stultorum
"Do not mistake your rank and number for superiority. The oldest child may learn from the youngest."
Posted by: x Foman123 x
I understand where you're coming from, but hopefully if I can correct some of your line of thinking, your outrage will be a little bit lessened.
First off, thanks for taking the time to respond with a thoughtful post. Secondly, apologies if I came off as such, but I was not "outraged" when I posted my above response. If anything, I conveyed my strong feelings on the topic in a way that could, I see now, be identified as blind anger or outrage.
I am not saying that users with just a "Member" title are untrustworthy. Hell, some of the users I trust the most here have a "Member" title. What I'm saying, however, is that a member who is Legendary or Mythic has a proven track record of relatively active forum posting combined with posting within the rules. In general (and with some admitted exceptions), these members know the rules and try to abide by them. If they make a misstep and I tell them about it, they are likely to correct it.
I have to disagree that "most" users would "act like Mythics given the chance." This is not cynicism -- I know that many members hope to achieve a higher title. I also know that a huge majority of the users here are good-natured, nice people who just want to come and talk about their favorite video game or gaming community for awhile. But long experience and observation have taught that most members post by trial-and-error. In other words, they post what and where they feel like it, and if they get warned/banned for it, THAT is when they know not to do it again. In some cases, they post what and where they feel like it and if they get banned for it they simply wait out the ban and then do it again. This description fits the vast, vast majority of users of these forums, and I would wager that not only have these users not read the forum rules, ToU, and CoC, they do not even know where to find them.
In that case, would you extend the same courtesies to the Members you know and trust as you would to Mythics? If so, it is clearly a matter of knowing a user more so than simply recognizing any status. Continuing this line of thought, if this is the case, why not try to get to know more average users? I realize such a goal is pretty much impossible given the sheer number of users on B.net (with more joining every day), so I won't be as naive as to expect you and the rest of the site administrators and moderators to do so. What I mean to say by such a statement, however, is that trust is developed through knowledge of an individual more so than a specific title.
I agree with you that the manner in which someone posts is indicative of their character, especially in light of an existent forum history of poor or sub-standard behavior, but I feel the users who engage in such activity can be easily identified and quickly dealt with. As I'm sure you inferred from my prior post, I feel that any punishment meted out should be done on equal terms and be applicable to every member who violates a given rule. This way it is ensured the rules are never broken, regardless of status or whether or not more experienced users know they can get away with a slight infraction. After all, the rules are not to be broken or bent, correct? If so, why allow some members to bend them a little while prohibiting others from doing so?
I don't wish a stricter enforcement of the rules and ToU upon one user demographic or another, I simply think that they need to be enforced equally and fairly throughout, regardless of status. Why reward some users for following the rules with the ability to ignore them sometimes?
I know that you're optimistic about the nature of most users of these forums, but please believe me when I say that this is the reality. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, either -- the vast majority of users have no stake in the forums and simply want to ask a quick question, have a one-off discussion about Halo or Matchmaking, or get caught up on the latest news. Nothing wrong with that, and for a user like that, there's really no reason to read the rules or post in any manner other than trial-and-error. But this kind of posting on a mass scale by thousands of users is not good for the forums as a whole, which is why the admins and moderators generally do what they can to discourage such trial-and-error posting.
Optimistic? You know what, you are right. I agree that I feel most people are good natured and don't do things out of spite. Maybe that is a wrong belief to hold in an environment as anonymous as the internet, but the atmosphere engendered by the B.net community (at least in my opinion based off of my experience here) typically disdains rude and spiteful behavior. Such posters are called out, even if the the troll is fed in the process, and the rules are enforced.
As for the matter of "trial-and-error" posting as you call it, if the question is innocent enough, why does it matter what you do to the poster? If many are one-time posters, does banning them actually teach them anything? I'd guess that it doesn't. Having had their question answered, and seeing that they have been banned or blacklisted (if they even bothered to check back and see that they were), the one-off poster will never return. If they do somewhere down the line, what's to stop them from making another account and posting a question to a random forum once more? I agree that the punishments dolled out on B.net can serve as learning tools, but only for the users dedicated enough to stick around and suffer through them. If a user continues to engage in disruptive behavior further punishments will either correct the situation or remove them from the community.
I feel that one point that needs to be given some attention is the average age of the typical B.net user. I'd easily believe anyone who tells me the average user age trends towards 15-18 (and under) more so than one that trends towards 20+. Not to attack the younger age groups, especially since I have met, talked, and played games with several mature younger gamers, but it is my opinion that the younger a user is the more likely the incidence of rules violation. That is not to say that older users don't engage is foolish behavior, but the incidence of it is lessened the older a member. I realize that this is a point that would be hard to address in any meaningful sense, and certainly don't advocate age-gating the site or singling out someone simply because they seem "young". What I do feel needs to be done is that this point simply be addressed for whatever value it has and then considered when discussing rules, punishments, and member treatment.
Most Legendary and Mythic members, on the other hand, have generally learned the rules either by keen observation over several YEARS on these forums or by actually reading the rules themselves. Before they even hit the "submit" button, they usually have a very good idea whether their post is within the rules or not. They are not posting by trial-and-error. But even then, they can make mistakes. That is where a little leeway comes in.
I agree that great communities require a sense of respect and equality, but I don't think that this is inconsistent with that. Saying that a community has a "sense of equality" simply means that no discrimination occurs for arbitrary reasons. Here, it is no different. All members are treated equally based on their trust rating and history on the forums. There is no arbitrary discrimination, but there is different treatment for members who have proven that they are upstanding and active community members. It sounds absolutely insane to say that a member with 15 prior bans for posting off-topic should receive the same ban for posting off-topic yet again as a Mythic Member who has been here for five years and slips up and accidentally posts in the wrong forum.
I do not see how giving a bit of leeway to Legendary and Mythic members (or any member with a trust rating that indicates that they are both active and rule abiding) is either absurd or "favoritism" in the sense that you mean it.
I still fell that a good-natured, decent member who follows the rules, yet makes mistakes at the same frequency as a Mythic Member, should be treated no differently from a higher status member. Such a member may not be known to you, but for one posting out of what may have been a relatively long time on B.net, that user would face a stiff penalty all due to the fact that their title bar isn't blue or even light gray. I do agree with you that a user with a prior history of bans and bad behavior should be treated differently, but that difference in treatment stems not from member status but from their own proven history on the forums.
That all said, where do I feel the B.net community stands? For the most part, it is great and runs smoothly. I do believe that more tolerance, or equal tolerance, needs to be extended to all members. Still these are my opinions and others may think differently. Regardless, I do urge everyone here to think of each other in equal terms and for those in moderating or administrating roles to extend a degree of equality in all matters needing them. I'm glad to see that some believe that a community does exist here, and I for one want to see that community to continue to grow and do so in the right direction.
Am I wrong for wanting such?