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  • Subject: Human/Forerunner Link Proof
Subject: Human/Forerunner Link Proof
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One of the most debated facts about Halo is whether the Humans are the Forerunners. I've done a lot of looking into it and I have found many hints dropped by Bungie in Halo that would point to this being the case. 343 Guilty Spark, the annoying, invincible Forerunner AI from Halo drops numerous hints that the humans/MC are a member of the Forerunners. The reason I think that most people have overlooked this is that they dismiss the Monitor as being full of crap and more or less ignore the exact meaning of what he says. This makes all the difference because the way he words his sentences makes it difficult to understand the full meaning of what he says without stopping to think about it, as well as because all of them require several connections to be made before they make sense. I made a post in another forum (the Covenant Hierarchy forum by Shai Halud) outlining both why the Humans are the Forerunners as evidenced by the Monitor's quotes as well as why this would make them the targets of the Covenant, more specifically the Prophets. I've copied it right below this post as well as some of the responses it received containing further evidence I had overlooked.

  • 07.13.2004 1:42 PM PDT
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There is already a post on this

  • 07.13.2004 1:46 PM PDT
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This is been known and debated on for a while. You're not the first to come up with this, and wont be the last.

  • 07.13.2004 1:46 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Question:

How many times will I have to hear the same thing over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and.......?

Sorry, you bring up interesting points, yes,... but its not news.

Well, at least you can make the connections well enough... Kudos to you for that.

[Edited on 7/13/2004 1:48:28 PM]

  • 07.13.2004 1:48 PM PDT
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Posted by: Scipio
I know this was in a previous thread I have made, but I think it's relevant to this thread's discussion.
Here are my ideas on why the Covenant are attacking humans and what the Prophets aren't telling the elites.

In light of Frankie's article about the covenant and the posts afterwards, I have been struck with an idea.
Prophet ceremony and purpose is not generally known to the Covenant population, most of whom simply trust in their wisdom to further the goals and territory of the Covenant.

So the nature of Prophets is more or less unknown to the other Covenant castes. I believe it also said in one of the books that the Prophets live on a world where the Forerunner had lived before they abandoned it for unknown reasons. Now here is where I make a few assumptions. Lets say, for the sake of argument, that humans are or are at least related to the Forerunner. The Prophets obviously know a lot about the forerunner and are in control of the Covenant because of their understanding of and the mysticism of the long-departed Forerunner. Now, the Covenant run into a human ship and blow it up, why? The Covenant have been studying humanity (and vice versa) for a little while before contact was made according to FS. If the Prophets realized that humans are or atleast are the only/closest relatives of the Forerunner, then they'd a pretty good reason for eliminating them.

First of all, if all Covenant castes knew that the humans, with their inferior technology and mannerisms were direct decendants or were forerunners, then their faith in these 'godlike' beings would be shaken to the breaking point. The millenia of semi-worship of Forerunner and pursuit of their level of greatness would seem to be completely wasted if they all ended up as some lowly imperial race with sub-par technology. Plus, if the humans are Forerunner and are the result of some kind of self-induced apocalypse, then trying to attain their level of greatness through the Prophets guidance would be folly because it would only lead to their own destruction. The Prophets are ultimately dependent upon the other races to keep themselved defended, and without those races loyalty, they are vulnerable to the same kind of extinction they pose to humans.

Now, the Prophets realize this before any of the other Covenant (or they assassinate anyone else who knew the truth. Remember in Halo:The Flood when Zammamme goes through all the security checks because of recent assassinations?) and the concequences of the rest of the Covenant knowing the truth. They decide to protect their position as the head of the Covenant and maintain the enigmatic nature of their Forerunner idols by destroying any and all evidence that they may be these newfound humans. That would explain why they go to such great lengths to destroy every single human and their buidings on every single planet they inhabit while maintaining their phoney motive of pursuing forerunner relics and killing the infidels who have set up camp on top of them.

Frankie's Covenant info hints that there will be Civil War among the Covenant races (the evidence is so great it screams at us). The elites aren't keen on the idea of protecting and listening to the Prophets in the first place because they'd much rather just kill than wait for a purpose, so how loyal would they be when they realized that Prophet dogma and religion was all a lie?

THIS IS WHERE I START
I think Scipio's pretty much on the ball with the situation within the Covenant heirarchy, especially with regards to the Prophets. I disagree with the hypothesis that the Brutes are mercenaries, primarily based upon the fact that in First Strike they guard the temple aboard the Unyielding Heiro-thing. It is obvious from the last chapter of the book that the Elites clearly look down upon the Brutes as being overly-primitive, and as the most religiously idealistic of the Covenant races as well as the second-highest ranking I doubt they would stand for their guarding of religious sites if they weren't even a true part of the Covenant. I'm not entirely sure what niche they fulfill in the Covenant, but it definitely seems as though they are not mercenaries.

Another thing that I would like to bring up is the Human-Forerunner relationship. I think that, as Scipio states, the humans are at least the genetic offshoot of the Forerunners, if not the Forerunners themselves, and only the prophets realize it, and wish to eradicate the humans so as to prevent religious turmoil as well as maintain their place at the top of the hierarchy. I can support this fact with multiple quotes muttered and actions from 343 Guilty Spark throughout the course of Halo. Before I continue I would like to give credit to Wesker's FAQ on GameFAQs.com for saving me the effort of recording these quotes myself.

Quote #1-"The installation was specifically built to study and contain the
Flood. Their survival as a race was dependant upon it. I am grateful to see
that some of them survived to reproduce."

Quote #2-"The Flood are already hard at work preparing your vessel. It's
parasitic nature belies the Flood's intelligence."

Quote #3-"Puzzling. You brought such ineffective weapons to combat the Flood
despite the containment protocols."

Quote #4-"I would conjecture that the other species currently on the
installation is responsible for releasing the Flood. They seem most persistent
in their attempts to access restricted areas."

Quote #5-"More or less. Technically this installation's pulse has a maximum
effective radius of twenty five thousand light years, but once the others
follow suit, this galaxy will be quite devoid of life, or any least any life
with sufficient biomass to sustain the Flood...But you already knew that, I
mean, how couldn't you? We have followed our outbreak containment procedure to the letter.
You were with me each step of the way as we managed this crisis."

Quote #6-"Why would you hesitate to do what you have already done?"

Quote #7-"Last time you asked me if it were my choice would I do it. Having had
considerable to time to ponder your query my answer has not changed. There is
no choice. We must activate the ring."

Quote #8-"You can't imagine how exciting this is to have a record of all our
lost time. Human history is it? Fascinating.

Ok thats a lot but ill explain it all. The first thing I want to address is the fact that the Monitor is insane. It is mentioned in the books that Human smart AI's only have a lifespan of about 7 years. Even though Forerunner technology is far superior, it makes sense that after 100,000 and some odd years that it would develop some quirks. Quote 1 indicate that something on Halo is descended from the Forerunners. Though it doesnt necessarily mean the Humans, it narrows it down. Also, in the book the MC comes upon a fallen soldier in the library who the Monitor refers to as the previous Reclaimer. Though not impossible to have occured, it makes sense that the Monitor would seek out Forerunners or their decendants to carry out containment procedures, which the Monitor is clearly bent on carrying out to the letter. Quote 2 must to the Truth and Reconciliation, and the Pillar of Autumn is in no shape to fly. It is, however, a Covenant ship, and the Monitor erroneously refers to it as belonging to the MC. This makes sense because the Monitor would naturally assume that a Forerunner would arrive on a Forerunner designed ship and since the Covenant designs are base upon Forerunner technology the Monitor simply assumed it was the MC's.Quote 3 is just one of many that shows the Monitor assuming the MC knows whats up, as it would be logical to assume that the MC knew his own (Forerunner) history. Quote 4 refers to the Covies. Though not specifically named, the behavior described matched that of the Covenant, who had searched the ring-world extensively for "relics" and also makes sense because in the level 343 Guilty Spark Keyes' patrol encounters dead Covenant left and right, evidence that the Flood had been realeased prior to the Human patrol's arrival. Combined with quote 1 it narrows down potential Forerunner species to just the Humans, as reference the Covenant as "the others" clearly shows that the Monitor has no prior knowledge of their existence. Quotes 5-7 all point to the fact that the MC should know whats going on and allude to the fact that he should know his own history. Also, it references the fact that the ethics of Halo had been discussed prior to its original firing, and that the MC should be clued in on the fact that it had been determined that it was the only correct course of action. Lastly, quote 8 refers to Human history and the way the Monitor discusses it it doesnt sould like it is talking about some other species' history but rather the records of what had transpired within his own civilization during his time in isolation.

Two more things that support a Human-Forerunner link. One is that fact that the Monitor and the MC can talk freely. All language translation on the planet requires some sort of link between the two languages and some ancient languages remain untranslated because they evoloved independently of our language system. Therefore the ability for the Monitor to understand English suggests that there is some common link somewhere in our past. Lastly, yes, lastly, in the books there are occasional references to the MC and other Spartans feeling as if they is somehow familiar with Forerunner and Covenant interfaces. There are also references of how Forerunner coordinate systems are based upon natural geometry or something to that effect. This suggests that Humans naturally understand Forerunner interfaces because theyre based upon patterns recognized naturally based on genetics. This also alludes to a common link in evolution.

  • 07.13.2004 1:49 PM PDT
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Copied where? O-o

Edit: sry i started writign thi response before your posted everything

[Edited on 7/13/2004 1:59:04 PM]

  • 07.13.2004 1:50 PM PDT
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Hey man, I want to applaud you for making this connection, but I am ging to have to set you aside, and or go to MY thread which right now is ten pages long, has been debated gfor for about five days now and is almost to an end. Please visit: "Forerunner, Proven to be human." And "Even more conclusive theory."

  • 07.13.2004 1:54 PM PDT
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Ok well thats what I had put down earlier. I'd just like to mention that when I said the Monitor was insane it was an overstatement. What I had meant by the thought was that it had, over time, simply developed quirks, similar to the way Cortana has, that impaired its ability to realize that the MC might not be clued in on what was going on. Anyways I just wanted to make this page to have a hadn't really noticed a place where all of this info was really organized or discussed, plus I've noticed a lot of people who are sceptical towards the concept but who don't really cite any evidence either way. I havent read every single forum on this site though so if there is such a place then I take full credit for my ineptitude.

  • 07.13.2004 1:58 PM PDT
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Oh, heh, sorry Chaplain. Well I guess anyone reading this may as well go to his forum seeing as its got more information at this point than mine does or probably ever will.

  • 07.13.2004 1:59 PM PDT
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Chaplain your thread "ended" the moment you started insulting everyone else and has not evolved into anythign but your repetition of the same things over and over again.

Edit: Don't worry Sheila, he hasnt got 1/10 th the info your have :/

[Edited on 7/13/2004 2:01:51 PM]

  • 07.13.2004 2:00 PM PDT
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Not a problem, it's good to see somebody with the knowledge about this, I'm having some serious problems with the people in there, they like to insult me, so if I look kinda mean, it's only to defend myself. lol, and I may look pretty mean.

  • 07.13.2004 2:02 PM PDT
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Thanks for the support Morguile. On another note the only reason I made my original post was to back up the theory with some actual in-game quotes, which I had noticed but hadnt really seen mentioned in the forums before. Feel free to copy and paste them to your forum Chaplain if you feel they can give you some leverage.

  • 07.13.2004 2:05 PM PDT
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Edit: Don't worry Sheila, he hasnt got 1/10 th the info your have :/

I don't mean to compete in the amount of info that I have, but I realize it may be pretty hard to see, for somebody that jus got here, so here's a revised version of pretty much everything that I have. (This is all conlomerated from different posts, into one large one.)

In Halo, the last level, Called, "The Maw," You get to the bridge, and what do you know, 343 Guilty Spark, is pulling information from Human, databases. He is looking at the "Pillar of Autumn's" computers. And he says this. "You can't imagine how exciting this is! To have a record of all of our lost time! Human history, is it? Fascinating." 343 Guilty Spark Said that he just got a record of all of his lost time... "Human History is it?" Human, History. There you go. We, are the forerunner.

1. 343 Guilty Spark said hat he was built by the Forerunners (In the books). Now, when 343 Guilty Spark referred to his lost time, how could it mean anything other than the forerunners? It doesn't that is what he meant.

2. Then, since 343 Guilty spark referred to that lost time, as human history, how could that not mean humans are forerunners...

3. Thirdly, if a long time ago, the forerunners (Now known as humans) were alive, and they built the Halo's. And when the Halo's were activated, and wiped out most of the forerunners, wouldn't that make for millions of years of, "Lost Time?" Hmmmmm..... The humans, are just a patch filling in for the forerunners, The Humans of NOW may not have built the Halo's, but they did build them a long time ago.

I don't want to get too in depth and start contradicting my insight that this is only a game and the plots don't go that far in, but Zuka Zammamee, when talking to the prophets on one occasion, said something about his armor, and the shields and those things, coming directly from the forerunners. They were having a conversation about the shields that Master Chief has, and speculating weather or not it was better than the Jackal's wrist shield. He sounded concerned about the human shields being better. And asked something to the affect of: "Didn't the Forerunner themselves give us this armor and technology?" To the best of my knowledge and memory (Which is extremely good, I read this book about a year ago.) there was no substantial reply to what Zuka inquired. Meaning that they may not have given the Covenant those supplies, and maybe the prophets are using this war for their own advantage...

Now, Eagle117 your question went something along the lines of why did they create a weapon for their own demise. I really don't know why they would do that. Hmm, But here's something, that doesn't prove either way that humans are not forerunners. All that does is prove that we/them have made a stupid invention.

And As for your other idea, if it were fired all sentient life would be destroyed. Okay.... How many years ago was it destroyed? 100,000 years right? Hate to use other people's arguments, but who's system? Earths? Ours? The Covie system? Or the previous more advanced form of humans (i.e. Forerunners.) Which would be very important to recognize, as 343 would only assume his (More his Creators) solar system, he wouldn't automatically assume somebody else’s. And even so 343 acts like he knows the Chief. Do you remember anything from the book? How about The library level. How about that marine. Staff Sergeant Mobuto. Marvin, Mobuto.

"Ah," 343 Guilty Spark said, peering down over the Spartan's shoulder. "The other Reclaimer. His combat skin proved even less suitable than yours."
The soldier looked up over his shoulder. "What do you mean?"
"Is this a test, Reclaimer?" the Monitor seemed genuinely puzzled. "I found him wandering through a structure on the other side of the ring, and brought him to the same point where you started." Page 244 (Bottom paragraphs, word for word.)

That guy. You forget about him? I hope not, I hope nobody would forget about him, because that guy, is a real man. But more to the point. He called him the other Reclaimer. And note, "Reclaimer" is capitalized... That's right, meaning, he isn't just ANY reclaimer, he's the Reclaimer. Human. Not just the Spartans. It isn't just Master Chief that he thinks is the Reclaimer. He is calling human's Reclaimers. Now believe me when I tell you, I am trembling right now, I JUST found that. I feel like saving this on a word doc with the rest of my proof then putting it on the speculation thread. Humans. 343 Calling human's reclaimers.

OH OH and Lastly before I forget. The Forerunner didn't give the armor and weapons and stuff to the covenant (Further proving my point) because in the game and books, 343 says "The other species." While referring to the covenant. And if 343 Doesn’t know who the covenant are, then the forerunner obviously never really made any transactions such as those, and that would conclude that the Covenant are not in contact with the forerunner, placing the forerunner in the spot that the forerunner should be in. (Non-associated with the covenant.)

Check this out.

"Why would you hesitate to do what you've already done?" 343 Guilty Spark Demanded.

What YOU have already done. Humans. Possibly. And That proves that there was AT LEAST, a human looking figure on Halo before. Now then take into consideration he call ALL humans Reclaimer. So he was very possibly saying, (Rewritten in my own words what he could in fact have been saying.) "Why would you hesitate to do what your people have done before?"

That's not it.

"If you are unwilling to help--I will simply find another," Spark said conversationally.

Doesn't a "Reclaimer" need to activate the installation? "...I will simply find another." He is referring to the human race as the Reclaimer.

That's still not all.

What type of gravitation system do the covenant have? They have mysterious forms that just automatically attract you to the floor, now UNSC and Human artificial gravity is created how? (Remember in the boxing ring where Chief Really screwed up those four O.D.S.T.'s. It's call Centrifugal force. What type of artificial gravity does the halo have? You don't even need the book to know this one, it's a "ring" world. Obviously sense it is spinning there's it's gravitational poll. But if you're going to get cranky I'll give you the fricking book example.

"Captain," Cortana said, "the object is clearly artificial. There's a gravity field that controls the ring's spin and keeps the atmosphere inside."

That type of Artificial Gravity is Human based. Oh and would you like more about its gravity?

"But it appears that the ring has an oxygen-nitrogen based atmosphere an earth normal gravity."

Now I don't know if you caught all of that but its got earth normal gravity, and the atmosphere is perfect human living conditions, complete with perfect air, nice gravity, and weather conditions such as sun, snow, rain, etc... Wouldn't you think, that whoever built the Halo's, would build them to their own liking? Yes, I would think that and so would you. This is exactly as a human planet should be. The G-Forces not too extreme, and the air is perfect and breathable.

Now, lets go over everything, that I've said.

1. He is referring to the human race as Reclaimer. Not just Master Chief, and the forerunner activated it before, 343 says this, he says, that we've done this before. He was referring to the Forerunner, but we are human, he didn't know we call ourselves human. But never-the-less, he says we're Forerunner. (Inadvertently, in fact, does he ever do anything advertently?) Now to number two.

2. Earth Normal Gravity, and Oxygen-Nitrogen based air. Why would this be? Maybe because the builders of the halo wanted to survive on their own creation, so they would obviously build something to their liking. Even further proof that Humans built the ring.

3. The gravity system is human based. It is a human model of artificial gravity.

4. He said he had considerable time to ponder the question, does "Considerable time" sound like 100,000 years? I think it does. (Note: This does not mean an MC look alike, he refer's to all humans as Reclaimer.)

5. He said "Last time you asked me..." "...And I still say yes." 343 has talked to human life forms before. On Halo. And you know what? There is way more than just sufficient proof here. Please understand this time. It seems like every time I post one of these there is plenty of evidence but you guys try to flame it and forget about what I said, and how much sense it makes.

Like it? Tell me what you think.

  • 07.13.2004 2:06 PM PDT
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Thats all good information, although I hadnt seen a lot of it before mentioned in the forums. All I had been trying to do was use simple in-game script to prove it because you can't argue with what the writers at Bungie wrote, while anything that doesn't come straight from their mouth stands at least some chance of being debated by someone, although I agree wholeheartedly with everything you just posted. I also took into consideration the fact that the folks at Bungie like feeding us information by the crumb (i.e. the weekly updates) and figured that they cryptic way in which many of the hints are given (i.e. "The Flood are busy making preparations to your ship") fell very much in line with that behavior. Basically I just wanted to point out the Human/Forerunner relationship with as irrefutable evidence as possible. Like I said I had also not really looked too deeply into whether it was discussed in the forums, and frankly I'm surprised I had overlooked your forums, Chaplain, and would have just posted it there in the first place if i had known about them.

  • 07.13.2004 2:16 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Even if you have whole info or one-tenth of it, its all the same. It always uses the same 343 Guilty Spark quotes...

I say to both of you, even though you do bring up good points with evidence to help support them, try to find some evidence that doesn't involve 343 Guilty Spark...

If you have already, then I missed it, and I'm sorry if I did.

And no more flaming!

  • 07.13.2004 2:18 PM PDT
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The problem with anything that doesn't come direct from the Monitor's mouth (speaker?) is at least on some level debatable. Chaplain included a lot of information on Halo's enviornment in his post to me that represents a huge coinicidence if Halo was not built by the Humans. The fact that its atmosphere, gravity (created by the ring's rate of spin and centrifugal force, which could easily have been changed by the Forerunners if not ideal conditions for them), and weather systems (not to mention the presence of oceans/water) are all equivilant to those of Earth (ie normal Human existance parameters) screams that the Forerunners and Humans are one and the same. Additionally, as mentioned in my original post, the fact that the MC and the Monitor even can speak suggests a common background (See my post for the specifics, its in the second to last paragraph I think). Also, in the books, especially First Strike (Note the proximity of this book's release to that of the development of Halo 2) there are many references to Spartans feeling as if they recognize Forerunner designs as well as Covenant vehicle controls (specifically the Wraith's) which were derived from Forerunner technology hints at a genetic link between the two because it is likely (but not provable) that the Forerunners based their designs upon things that felt natural to them and if the humans are Forerunners then they would also find these interfaces natural.

  • 07.13.2004 2:33 PM PDT